Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Pazx]

I have a question. What's the difference between recovering low and getting smacked by your opponent into a stage spike KO and getting launched by your opponent into the underside of Skyloft and getting spiked by the stage into a KO?

I see what you're trying to say but from my experience getting hit by the "hazard" on Skyloft tends to send your character more or less in an upwards trajectory, not spiking them down.

 

[ShinnyMetal]

I will forever be disappointed by Wily's Castle. It's almost one of the best stages but then...yellow devil. bah I get salty every time I think about it

 

[dav3yb]

I will forever be disappointed by Wily's Castle. It's almost one of the best stages but then...yellow devil. bah I get salty every time I think about it

This is why I really wish they didn't just make omega nothing but FD, or at least also have an "alpha" stage too, where the stages are generally just static to a single form. Like Pokemon stadium on its starting form, or wilys castle just have the random platforms show up, but remove yellow devil.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

On using 8-player smash to legalize certain stages: The best way to go might be to have a third player and two CPUs at level 1. Use the Handicap system to set the CPUs to 300% damage. Make them Jigglypuff. If you can, give them Risky Respawn equipment. Have P3 destroy them and then SD. Then make the time limit one minute longer than it would otherwise be. That should cover it.

Sorry for quoting myself, but I just got an alternate idea: three wavebirds in the controller ports, (a second GCN adapter will be necessary) all set to the same channel. Because of this, one wavebird will control three characters. Make them all Jigglypuff, hold shield until break (or sd normally), and you're good.

 

[popsofctown]

On using 8-player smash to legalize certain stages: The best way to go might be to have a third player and two CPUs at level 1. Use the Handicap system to set the CPUs to 300% damage. Make them Jigglypuff. If you can, give them Risky Respawn equipment. Have P3 destroy them and then SD. Then make the time limit one minute longer than it would otherwise be. That should cover it.

We can go further! Buy 3 amiibos. Corrupt their minds and convince them that whenever they have an item in hand the best thing to do is throw it straight down. Set to 300%, give them Risky Respawner and Bob-Omb in hand equipments and heavy gravity equip too I guess. If it's possible to corrupt amiibos playstyle's this severely, they should consistently throw the Bobomb down and kill themselves immediately. No timer change needed.

EDIT: crap, I don't think they get Bobombs when they respawn though

 

[Piford]

Can we talk more about smashville? People always hype up the stage, but it seems like the platform is used most of the time for things people complain about on every other stage. You use it for

Camping when its off to the sides
Making fair combos into death extremely easy
Making recovery easier and making off stage play weaker
Making forward and back throws kill ridiculously early.

The only thing it seems to do that people actually like is help reduce projectile spam. So why do people like this stage so much? Battlefield seems like a much better choice for a favorite stage.

 

[webbedspace]

Everyone secretly loves most of those things. Especially early kills. Everyone adores early kills - but only if they're available frequently (like in Smashville and Delfino) and not persistently (like in a walk-off or Yoshi's Island Melee) because then a weaker player could leverage them all the time with no other game plan, and still win. You can't really win Smashville aiming only for back-throw kills, and you can't really win Delfino aiming only for up-air-to-up-B kills (though Nairo's single game win over ZeRo in Final Battle two months ago may beg to differ.)

 

[popsofctown]

Can we talk more about smashville? People always hype up the stage, but it seems like the platform is used most of the time for things people complain about on every other stage. You use it for

Camping when its off to the sides
Making fair combos into death extremely easy
Making recovery easier and making off stage play weaker
Making forward and back throws kill ridiculously early.

The only thing it seems to do that people actually like is help reduce projectile spam. So why do people like this stage so much? Battlefield seems like a much better choice for a favorite stage.

It's probably Brawlstolgia. Brawl had lots of mechanics that made it more balanced, like all viable characters needing no assistance from the plat to recover, for one. Can't put my finger on all the reasons.

Even if it shouldn't be everyone's favorite stage, it's hard to make a case for it to be anything but neutral so it's not really an actionable discussion..

 

[Piford]

It's probably Brawlstolgia. Brawl had lots of mechanics that made it more balanced, like all viable characters needing no assistance from the plat to recover, for one. Can't put my finger on all the reasons.

Even if it shouldn't be everyone's favorite stage, it's hard to make a case for it to be anything but neutral so it's not really an actionable discussion..

It was more of a "why do people hate on other stages like Skyloft, Wuhu Island, Castle Siege, ect for these reasons, but Smashville gets a free pass and is cited as some holy gift that no other stage matches in its perfectness." I'm not arguing it shouldn't be a starter stage, but I'm arguing that it has its flaws which are very similar to the hate some other stages get.

 

[popsofctown]

It was more of a "why do people hate on other stages like Skyloft, Wuhu Island, Castle Siege, ect for these reasons, but Smashville gets a free pass and is cited as some holy gift that no other stage matches in its perfectness." I'm not arguing it shouldn't be a starter stage, but I'm arguing that it has its flaws which are very similar to the hate some other stages get.

Well, one fundamental difference between backthrow killing early on smashville and backthrow killing early on castle siege is that you can be on the lowest part of the stage and still threaten that, and you always want to be on the lowest part of any stage. On smashville, the plat that lets you threaten that is above the other player, so it's often too risky to use it for high risk high reward camping due to the altitude disadvantage. Skyloft has some transformations where the sweet spots are low. I don't know Wuhu that well.

 

[Piford]

Well, one fundamental difference between backthrow killing early on smashville and backthrow killing early on castle siege is that you can be on the lowest part of the stage and still threaten that, and you always want to be on the lowest part of any stage. On smashville, the plat that lets you threaten that is above the other player, so it's often too risky to use it for high risk high reward camping due to the altitude disadvantage. Skyloft has some transformations where the sweet spots are low. I don't know Wuhu that well.

Well actively trying to get a backthrow kill on any stage is generally a bad main strategy to have anyways, it was just the fact that it can happen in general. What do you mean Skyloft has low sweet sports?

 

[popsofctown]

There are transformations where you can be both lower than your opponent and as close to the horizontal blastzone as possible.

 

[dav3yb]

i dont really get the "helps players recover" part, since it seems like unless you get knocked far enough to just die out of the blast zones, you're going to recover anyways unless your opponent tries to interfere with you anyways.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Can we talk more about smashville? People always hype up the stage, but it seems like the platform is used most of the time for things people complain about on every other stage. You use it for

Camping when its off to the sides
Making fair combos into death extremely easy
Making recovery easier and making off stage play weaker
Making forward and back throws kill ridiculously early.

The only thing it seems to do that people actually like is help reduce projectile spam. So why do people like this stage so much? Battlefield seems like a much better choice for a favorite stage.

Hey look somebody said it. I certainly won't take anyone there if they have a semi-decent kill throw. Its definitely a fine stage but its stupidly overrated.

 

[webbedspace]

i dont really get the "helps players recover" part, since it seems like unless you get knocked far enough to just die out of the blast zones, you're going to recover anyways unless your opponent tries to interfere with you anyways.

If you play on Battlefield you'll notice it gives people a choice to recover high onto the platform (to escape ground-characters' edgeguards/trumps), or low onto the ledge (to escape projectiles and wall-of-pain). Smashville often provides a powerful 'recover high' choice that places them far from the ledge - an option that no other legal stage apart from Town & City and a few Delfino and Skyloft forms seem to offer.

 

[ShinnyMetal]

i dont really get the "helps players recover" part, since it seems like unless you get knocked far enough to just die out of the blast zones, you're going to recover anyways unless your opponent tries to interfere with you anyways.

I have had plenty of times where I would have died if it weren't for that platform.

 

[Snipnigth]

Why not make skyloft legal there are no stage hazzards there, also mario circuit its almost a harazz free. Also the game has a freaking stage creation mode, why not create our own legal stages?

 

[ShinnyMetal]

Why not make skyloft legal there are no stage hazzards there, also mario circuit its almost a harazz free. Also the game has a freaking stage creation mode, why not create our own legal stages?

Skyloft does have a part where the left side had a moving wall that does damage so there is a stage hazard it just isn't aweful

 

[Piford]

Why not make skyloft legal there are no stage hazzards there, also mario circuit its almost a harazz free. Also the game has a freaking stage creation mode, why not create our own legal stages?

A lot of people wanted Skyloft legal, but apex banned it for no reason and a lot of TO followed suit.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Why not make skyloft legal there are no stage hazzards there,

A lot of people want it legal - if your TO doesn't, ask him why.

also mario circuit its almost a harazz free.

The hazards don't matter on Mario Circuit, but there's an annoying OHKO glitch on it that really ruins its chances of being legal.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

The hazards don't matter on Mario Circuit, but there's an annoying OHKO glitch on it that really ruins its chances of being legal.

I'm praying the glitch gets patched out at some point...

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

Why not make skyloft legal there are no stage hazzards there, also mario circuit its almost a harazz free. Also the game has a freaking stage creation mode, why not create our own legal stages?

As for custom stages, the problem is really distribution. You have to manually create each stage in order to have it on your Wii U. There's an issue with consistency due to this as well. As it stands, you'd have to create each stage on every setup before each tournament if you wanted to do a tournament with them.

Eventually, we'll see a custom stage sharing system on Miiverse and I think that will be the time to try out custom stages at tournaments.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Metal Face is endlessly amusing to listen to. If you speed up the game in training mode it even turns his voice hilariously high pitched. And Gaur Plain is done.

Did you know Metal Face has only three attacks, two of which are reserved exclusively for his entrance and exit respectively?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@ ParanoidDrone any plans to go back to Skyloft and look into which paths have hitboxes? Is there any decent way to predict where and when hitboxes will show up? Where the heck does the number of 164 distinct paths come from? How is that even possible with only 11 areas of interest? That should be 10+9+8... paths, so 55 at most, right?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ ParanoidDrone any plans to go back to Skyloft and look into which paths have hitboxes? Is there any decent way to predict where and when hitboxes will show up? Where the heck does the number of 164 distinct paths come from? How is that even possible with only 11 areas of interest? That should be 10+9+8... paths, so 55 at most, right?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: In broad terms it's simply "Skyloft itself (i.e. the island and buildings on it) do damage to players if they touch it while the platform is moving around." When the topic was first brought up back when I first made the Skyloft thread, I tried jumping at the island on purpose as the stage flew around and I was able to actually get hit by it exactly once. Trying to exhaustively map out all the possible locations it comes close enough to be a danger is something I do not plan on doing.

(If someone with more patience than me wants to go and do it, I won't stop them. It's just not something I want to do.)

As far as paths, I'm not actually sure where that 164 number comes from. There should be only 54 unique sets of 4 transformations since each stop pulls from a subset of the total. (First through third have 3 options while the last has 2, with no overlap anywhere. 3 * 3 * 3 * 2 = 54.)

 

[Piford]

@ ParanoidDrone any plans to go back to Skyloft and look into which paths have hitboxes? Is there any decent way to predict where and when hitboxes will show up? Where the heck does the number of 164 distinct paths come from? How is that even possible with only 11 areas of interest? That should be 10+9+8... paths, so 55 at most, right?

Each landing can go to each other landing which is a different path (3*3) + (3*3) + (3*3) + (3*2) + (2*3) = 39 different paths. 164 likely comes from assuming Light Tower to Bazar to Statue of the Goddess is differen't than Light Tower to Bazar to Cliff are different paths despite the first path being the exact same. In reality its combination of 39 different paths that can be mixed and match together but in a strict order, and once you are at a destination you further eliminate possible path choices. So going into the stage there are 9 different paths it could take after the first landing, but once it lands on the knights academy then there are only 3 paths it can take.

 

[Krysco]

The 162 comes from unique full trips. The trips can be very similar but a single different location makes it a different trip. Examples are Knight Academy - Bridge - Bazaar - Small Island - Knight Academy and Knight Academy - Bridge - Bazaar - Small Island - Light Tower. This is also assuming that the transition at the very beginning of the stage is different from the last spot to first spot transition. It could very well be the same in which case the number would be smaller. I've had plans to try and record every spot with hazards with my crappy capture card but haven't gotten around to it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The 162 comes from unique full trips. The trips can be very similar but a single different location makes it a different trip. Examples are Knight Academy - Bridge - Bazaar - Small Island - Knight Academy and Knight Academy - Bridge - Bazaar - Small Island - Light Tower. This is also assuming that the transition at the very beginning of the stage is different from the last spot to first spot transition. It could very well be the same in which case the number would be smaller. I've had plans to try and record every spot with hazards with my crappy capture card but haven't gotten around to it.

Problem: The second path you describe is impossible. The stage goes through exactly four stops before returning to the start position, and each stop selects from a specific and unique set of locations, with no overlap.

1. Knight Academy, Light Tower, or Windmills
2. Bridge, Plaza, or Residential District
3. Bazaar, Isle of the Goddess, or Statue of the Goddess
4. Small Island or Waterfall Island

3 * 3 * 3 * 2 = 54 possible paths the stage can take.

 

[Krysco]

The second path is assuming that after the visit to the small island and the entire trip restarts it chooses Light Tower as the beginning of the trip. It's also assuming that the beginning of the stage makes it take a different path than the transitions from ending to beginning which in this case means start of stage -> Light Tower is different than Small Island -> Light Tower. That could very well be wrong though.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The second path is assuming that after the visit to the small island and the entire trip restarts it chooses Light Tower as the beginning of the trip. It's also assuming that the beginning of the stage makes it take a different path than the transitions from ending to beginning which in this case means start of stage -> Light Tower is different than Small Island -> Light Tower. That could very well be wrong though.

It is wrong. The stage returns to the exact point it starts at before beginning a new cycle. If you watch carefully you can even see it freeze for a split second before moving on again. (Or maybe that was just my imagination, IDK.) For all intents and purposes you can consider it to reset after the fourth transformation.

 

[Krysco]

Ah okay, much fewer trips then. It's 54 in that case? I'll mess around with the document I have just to be sure.

Edit: Just edited the document I have and yeah the number of unique trips is 54. Much more manageable than 162.

 

[popsofctown]

Manageable is relative. Brawl Brinstar had 3 different lava rhythms. Virtually no one bothered learning any of them.

 

[Krysco]

Learning all of the hazards for the 54 trips of Skyloft will be a fun little side project for me whenever I'm bored and can stop people from saying the hazards are random. Not that that should have to be learned to make Skyloft legal in the first place. I already have some replays showing a few odd ones (or maybe it was just one).

 

[Piford]

Learning all of the hazards for the 54 trips of Skyloft will be a fun little side project for me whenever I'm bored and can stop people from saying the hazards are random. Not that that should have to be learned to make Skyloft legal in the first place. I already have some replays showing a few odd ones (or maybe it was just one).

You don't even have to learn all 54 trips, since each segment doesn't change. Like Bazaar to Statue of the Goddess ill always be the same, regardless of what you go to after or before.

 

[The_Jiggernaut]

You don't even have to learn all 54 trips, since each segment doesn't change. Like Bazaar to Statue of the Goddess ill always be the same, regardless of what you go to after or before.

Oh... right then. I don't know why I didn't think of that before. The important thing to study is the individual transitions as they will consistently have (or not have) hazards regardless of the full path.

So if the stage behaves as so:

1. Knight Academy, Light Tower, or Windmills
2. Bridge, Plaza, or Residential District
3. Bazaar, Isle of the Goddess, or Statue of the Goddess
4. Small Island or Waterfall Island

Start > 1) has 1*3 transitions
1) > 2) has 3*3
2) > 3) has 3*3
3) > 4) has 3*2
4) > Start has 2*1

Giving us 3+9+9+6+2= 29 distinct transitions

Which is still a lot, but certainly less than 54. This is the number we should be looking for sure. The question to answer is now "How many of the 29 transitions have hazards?"

An interesting thing about this layout is that it's possible for the transition from 2) > 3) or 1) > 2) or something to have no hazards, so a player in the know would not be taking a risk by being offstage during a stage switch that has 0 possible hazardous transitions.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Oh... right then. I don't know why I didn't think of that before. The important thing to study is the individual transitions as they will consistently have (or not have) hazards regardless of the full path.

So if the stage behaves as so:



Start > 1) has 1*3 transitions
1) > 2) has 3*3
2) > 3) has 3*3
3) > 4) has 3*2
4) > Start has 2*1

Giving us 3+9+9+6+2= 29 distinct transitions

Which is still a lot, but certainly less than 54. This is the number we should be looking for sure. The question to answer is now "How many of the 29 transitions have hazards?"

An interesting thing about this layout is that it's possible for the transition from 2) > 3) or 1) > 2) or something to have no hazards, so a player in the know would not be taking a risk by being offstage during a stage switch that has 0 possible hazardous transitions.

I'd be most interested in the ratio of hazardous transitions based on the location the stage leaves from. That is to say, if there is no danger on any path leaving the Knight's Academy, then players can use that knowledge. Knowing that there's no danger when approaching the Plaza is less useful because it's harder to tell where the stage is going.

I can offer that Light Tower > Plaza is hazard-free since the plaza is literally at the base of the tower. It's a hilariously short transition.

Although something that comes to mind is that even when touching down on a transition, it's theoretically possible for the ground to be a hazard until the stage stops moving. There's probably a specific moment where it switches to being valid standing room and I'm not sure what that moment is.

This is all a bit stream-of-thought, take as you will. Also serial edits yay.

 

[Piford]

I can offer that when the stage leaves the residential district, you can get hit by a windmill looking object. This might be the case for all 3 trips it makes.

I'm also relatively sure that start to X and X to start are hazard free, but I'm not 100% sure on that one.

 

[Krysco]

Oh... right then. I don't know why I didn't think of that before. The important thing to study is the individual transitions as they will consistently have (or not have) hazards regardless of the full path.

So if the stage behaves as so:



Start > 1) has 1*3 transitions
1) > 2) has 3*3
2) > 3) has 3*3
3) > 4) has 3*2
4) > Start has 2*1

Giving us 3+9+9+6+2= 29 distinct transitions

Which is still a lot, but certainly less than 54. This is the number we should be looking for sure. The question to answer is now "How many of the 29 transitions have hazards?"

An interesting thing about this layout is that it's possible for the transition from 2) > 3) or 1) > 2) or something to have no hazards, so a player in the know would not be taking a risk by being offstage during a stage switch that has 0 possible hazardous transitions.

Thank you for doing the math! Saves me the trouble of doing it. So if I get around to recording Skyloft hazards there's 29 paths I need to look out for, good to know.

 

[[Deuce]]

I spent about an hour recording skyloft transitions, but my post got deleted somehow. After 30 or so cycles, somewhere around 12 of them were unique. But besides that, the important part is that there are 29 possible transitions as explained by The_Jiggernaut

I have half of my note written but lost the other page. Here are some spots where it looks like you can get hit

Light tower -> Residential District (above)
Windmill -> Residential District (castle)
Residential District -> Isle of Goddess (bottom left - windmill)
Bazaar -> Small Isle (bottom left)

 

[Piford]

From the residential district to the floating Island, there's one with a bridge above you.