Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[LiteralGrill]

Not a chance. It's smaller relative to the characters, and the platforms rise much higher than they did in Melee.

It is starter stage kind of material? Like that good now?

 

[Slyphoria]

It is starter stage kind of material? Like that good now?

It definitely could be. Will it? Who knows.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

@ Raziek thanks and thanks for the clarification on Mario Circuit. I was rewatching that set today and took note of those moments upon careful review; that does seem somewhat annoying I'll agree, but I remain ever hopeful (it's a theme I know) and do place great faith in the predictability of the stage and its general mildness otherwise. Again we actually seem to be pretty close; your "expanded" 22 are pretty much precisely the stages I have my eyes on as good candidates plus Woolly World which I have so little hope for but certainly don't mind if it surprises me and works out (I'm not the type to object to more stages even if it means I have to be wrong for it to happen). I do notice you had Garden of Hope in your low information section which is a shame since it's one of the harder ones to really pin down from video but doesn't seem mechanically complex; did you just not get to play a game on it?

I have this likely extremely naive hope that we can get a pretty good and expansive stage list from smash wii u without too much controversy; the game itself would seem to have done everything possible to facilitate that so I figure in four days we'll be able to chart out the exact mechanics of some of these more complex stages, figure what they mean, figure a large number of uncontroversial stages as we place 90% of the stage list into either definitely legal or definitely banned, and then argue in circles for a few months about a small handful of stages only some of us like with a good stage list at the end however that debate turns out since we can agree on a majority of the important, good stuff.

 

[Raziek]

It is starter stage kind of material? Like that good now?

Yes. Absolutely.

 

[Zzuxon]

Alright, having seen a Gamexplain video of Duck Hunt, it is pretty obviously starter material. Here is the shakedown:
The Tree has 4 or 5 platforms.
The Dog's head is a platform when he comes out from the grass.
If Items are on, hitting a duck will occasionally spawn an item.
Occasionally a tuft of grass will come up from in front of the stage, obscuring a small portion of the stage temporarily.
None of these things are any type of problem. I would advocate for this stages legality even if it was a walk-off. It isn't so there is nothing in its way.

Also, if Rainbow Cruise can be legal, I see no reason why Pac-Land can't also be legal.

 

[Raziek]

RC is 100% consistent and doesn't scroll nearly as fast. Scroll speed is a big deal.

 

[Terotrous]

Rainbow Cruise is legal? Under which stagelist?


Anyway, looking at that Mario Circuit match, the stage is clearly legal. Yes, there's a wall that can save people, but its location is not random in any way. It's actually a stage control mechanic to position yourself such that your opponent's best kill moves will hit you into the wall. If your opponent has that favourable stage position you have to dislodge them first before going for the kill, or at least stall until the wall moves to a different location.

In that specific match, the fact that Robin just kept going for pointless SmashFAirs when Lucario had his back to the wall is what gave him the match, under no situation could those have killed so that was just staling that move and building Lucario's aura. The better play was to try to get Lucario away from the wall using a grab or ArcFire + jump behind, then if they landed one of those attacks he would die.

 

[guedes the brawler]

and for some speculation, assuming they return mostly unfixed, how do you think possible past stages would be handled this time?

so far, the stages that haven't been 100% deconfirmed via their music being elsewhere:

-Pirate Ship: all 3 probably have the same issues of before
-Icicle Mountain
-Hanenbow

-Fountain of Dreams: still good
-Pokemon Stadium 1: still ok
-Kongo Jungle Melee: might sill have camping issues on the rock
-Mushroom Kingdom Melee: too many caves of life
-Mushroom Kingdom II: even if walk-offs are fine, this... i'm nto sure on it, actually.
-Fourside: the layout and the ufo probably still kill it
-Hyrule Castle 64: might be ok for doubles only
-Dream Land 64: good
-Saffron City 64: the pokemon might not return for this one (at least char), but i don't see this layout gettign many fans
-Mushroom Kingdom 64: no
-Peach's Castle 64: no.
-Planet Zebes 64

 

[Piford]

and for some speculation, assuming they return mostly unfixed, how do you think possible past stages would be handled this time?

so far, the stages that haven't been 100% deconfirmed via their music being elsewhere:

-Pirate Ship: all 3 probably have the same issues of before
-Icicle Mountain
-Hanenbow

-Fountain of Dreams: still good
-Pokemon Stadium 1: still ok
-Kongo Jungle Melee: might sill have camping issues on the rock
-Mushroom Kingdom Melee: too many caves of life
-Mushroom Kingdom II: even if walk-offs are fine, this... i'm nto sure on it, actually.
-Fourside: the layout and the ufo probably still kill it
-Hyrule Castle 64: might be ok for doubles only
-Dream Land 64: good
-Saffron City 64: the pokemon might not return for this one (at least char), but i don't see this layout gettign many fans
-Mushroom Kingdom 64: no
-Peach's Castle 64: no.
-Planet Zebes 64

PS's song was found in PS2 I thought?

Edit: Misread I think your a lot of stages, off the top of my head Green Greens, Mario Bros, Yoshi's Story. And lot more stages have their songs in other stages like Pokefloats song playing in PS2 and Mute City and Big Blue's songs playing in Port Town Aero Dive.

For the stages you mentioned only Fountain of Dreams, Dreamland 64, and Peach's Castle 64 can really be legal, with Hyrule Castle and Mushroom Kingdom II being a maybe.

For Mario Circuit, I think if your trying to convince people its legal, using Yoshi's Island (Brawl) is the best tool. Since most people think Yoshi's 100% legal, you can just say how it randomly saves people. Mario Circuit can save people but its not random, punishes them with damage (on the moving part), and still can kill because it does damage.

 

[Slyphoria]

so far, the stages that haven't been 100% deconfirmed via their music being elsewhere:

-Pirate Ship: all 3 probably have the same issues of before
-Icicle Mountain
-Hanenbow

Pirate Ship: Great Sea has a new arrangement on Skyloft, Village of the Blue Maiden on Skyloft, Tal Tal Heights on Skyloft, Song of Storms on Temple, Gerudo Valley on Temple. As much as I want there to be a Windwaker HD stage, all signs point to it being gone.

Icicle Mountain: I assume you mean Summit from Brawl and not the crappy scrolling stage from Melee. If so, Ice Climber is on Wrecking Crew, Balloon Trip is on Duck Hunt, Shin Onigashima is on Boxing Ring and Clu Clu Land is on Duck Hunt. All of the songs are on other stages.

Hanenbow, maybe, but who really wants it back? It would be a cool Omega stage though.

PS's song was found in PS2 I thought?

Yup. If you haven't been on there, here's a list of confirmed songs and which stages they're on.

-----------

For other stages nearly completely deconfirmed for Wii U (and not on the 3DS) via songs being on other stages already:

Brawl:
New Pork City
Pirate Ship
Summit
Mario Bros
Rumble Falls
Spear Pillar
Frigate Orpheon

All other Brawl stages are accounted for.
--------------
Melee:
Big Blue
Mute City
Green Greens
Pokemon Stadium 1
Poke Floats
Peach's Castle
Rainbow Cruise
Great Bay
Yoshi's Story (Melee)
Venom

Safe for now: Mushroom Kingdom 1 and 2, Fountain of Dreams, Kongo Jungle, Fourside and TECHNICALLY Icicle Mountain but hahahaha no. All other stages accounted for.
----------------
N64:
Who knows. Kongo Jungle 64 doesn't have its Melee nor 64 song, but it does have like 5 remixes of it.

 

[guedes the brawler]

not that it matters uch to us, but it seems flat zone 1 and 2 were lazily merged into one thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFEHX86-ico&list=UUHcRETOeWvfhQU9U6Y7zJUg

 

[Piford]

No no no it matters a ton; adding Flatzone 1 to Flatzone 2 makes it the perfect legal stage.

 

[Slyphoria]

not that it matters uch to us, but it seems flat zone 1 and 2 were lazily merged into one thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFEHX86-ico&list=UUHcRETOeWvfhQU9U6Y7zJUg

Well. That's interesting.

I wish they'd do the same thing with Pokemon Stadium 2, merge it with Pokemon Stadium 1.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Well. That's interesting.

I wish they'd do the same thing with Pokemon Stadium 2, merge it with Pokemon Stadium 1.

i'd really rather not take the chance with Rock, Flying, Fire and Electric being available all at once...

 

[LiteralGrill]

That makes me sad. I actually enjoyed Flat Zone 1 in a quirky way for fun matches. Combining them makes me even less interested now

 

[Slyphoria]

That makes me sad. I actually enjoyed Flat Zone 1 in a quirky way for fun matches. Combining them makes me even less interested now

It's that perfect type of goof around casual stage, with items on high and such. I don't go on there for a serious fight, ever.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

That video makes it seem pretty likely to me that we know every stage now. Notice how nicely everything lines up on the stage select screen; no series is divided between two rows with the top row having five, the bottom row having four, and every other row having six. Of course, this player has still not unlocked Pac-Land, but it can just take a 5th spot on the bottom row next to the other third party stages to make the SSS even more symmetrical whereas adding more stages beyond that would require everything to re-arrange from this formation that is more orderly than any other we'e seen including the one with nothing unlocked. Given how much this guy has done (including seemingly clearing Event Mode in full) and that we have seen no evidence of any other stages whereas we saw a match on Flat Zone X days ago it seems even more likely that we know every stage already for 46 total stages in the game.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

That video makes it seem pretty likely to me that we know every stage now. Notice how nicely everything lines up on the stage select screen; no series is divided between two rows with the top row having five, the bottom row having four, and every other row having six. Of course, this player has still not unlocked Pac-Land, but it can just take a 5th spot on the bottom row next to the other third party stages to make the SSS even more symmetrical whereas adding more stages beyond that would require everything to re-arrange from this formation that is more orderly than any other we'e seen including the one with nothing unlocked. Given how much this guy has done (including seemingly clearing Event Mode in full) and that we have seen no evidence of any other stages whereas we saw a match on Flat Zone X days ago it seems even more likely that we know every stage already for 47 total stages in the game.

fix'd, at least when Miiverse comes out

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

fix'd, at least when Miiverse comes out

I'd like to point out that between the Random button and "Normal" there's enough room for one more tab. DLC which will have Miiverse as the first stage to appear on it? The CSS has no obvious spot for Mewtwo either with everything on it lining up really neatly as well so it seems likely the GUI is meant to look nice pre-DLC and will be expanded into something else nice looking when DLC is added in.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I'd like to point out that between the Random button and "Normal" there's enough room for one more tab. DLC which will have Miiverse as the first stage to appear on it? The CSS has no obvious spot for Mewtwo either with everything on it lining up really neatly as well so it seems likely the GUI is meant to look nice pre-DLC and will be expanded into something else nice looking when DLC is added in.

what do you mean the CSS has no room for Mewtwo? It has room for 2 more characters, one at the top and one at the bottom and then everything lines up perfectly

 

[Slyphoria]

what do you mean the CSS has no room for Mewtwo? It has room for 2 more characters, one at the top and one at the bottom and then everything lines up perfectly

I was wondering if that meant there's only 2 DLC characters, or there could be a DLC spot that has the others in it. Then it'd be almost like the Melee select screen with full grid except the last line.

I will say, for stages, it's really weird that ONLY Kongo Jungle 64 is a N64 stage. I'm still thinking there's a really complicated requirement on the Challenges that unlocks another stage or 2, at least one of which being a N64 stage.

I'd like to point out that between the Random button and "Normal" there's enough room for one more tab. DLC which will have Miiverse as the first stage to appear on it? The CSS has no obvious spot for Mewtwo either with everything on it lining up really neatly as well so it seems likely the GUI is meant to look nice pre-DLC and will be expanded into something else nice looking when DLC is added in.

Oh, you know what that could be? Downloaded stages, unless those go in Custom. It'll be possible to share Stage Builder stages later on. Though I do really hope it's DLC.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I was wondering if that meant there's only 2 DLC characters, or there could be a DLC spot that has the others in it. Then it'd be almost like the Melee select screen with full grid except the last line.

I will say, for stages, it's really weird that ONLY Kongo Jungle 64 is a N64 stage. I'm still thinking there's a really complicated requirement on the Challenges that unlocks another stage or 2, at least one of which being a N64 stage.

I'm still holding out hope for Meta Crystal from Smash 64, or possibly Saffron City with a Hoenn skin. If we're going by Stage Select Screen Layout logic, there's room for one more stage on the top row, which would probably be a special stage, or a Smash Bros series stage. Meta Crystal fits the bill!

As for the CSS, my personal hope is either A we get exactly 2 DLC characters and they fill out the grid, or B: Mewtwo gets its own slot, and the last slot to fill out the grid is shared between all other DLC characters and their custon builds when applicable, like with the Mii Fighters.

 

[Zwzchow]

I do believe it was mentioned that custom stages can be shared now

PS: Happy cakeday @ Piford

 

[Piford]

I do believe it was mentioned that custom stages can be shared now

PS: Happy cakeday @ Piford

Thanks. Also the issue with custom stages are still getting the community to agree on them, and also the fact that we already have a large stage list without them.

 

[Raziek]

Rainbow Cruise is legal? Under which stagelist?


Anyway, looking at that Mario Circuit match, the stage is clearly legal. Yes, there's a wall that can save people, but its location is not random in any way. It's actually a stage control mechanic to position yourself such that your opponent's best kill moves will hit you into the wall. If your opponent has that favourable stage position you have to dislodge them first before going for the kill, or at least stall until the wall moves to a different location.

In that specific match, the fact that Robin just kept going for pointless SmashFAirs when Lucario had his back to the wall is what gave him the match, under no situation could those have killed so that was just staling that move and building Lucario's aura. The better play was to try to get Lucario away from the wall using a grab or ArcFire + jump behind, then if they landed one of those attacks he would die.

You're missing the point. The transitions themselves creating walls/ceilings is not what I was complaining about.

The track being active (as a wall or ceiling) WHILE THE STAGE IS MOVING is what I was complaining about.

 

[Slyphoria]

I was successfully able to have ToadsterOven change his stage list for his big Wii U tourney. :D

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It has been confirmed now beyond doubt that we know every stage:

Spoiler: proof

 

[Slyphoria]

It has been confirmed now beyond doubt that we know every stage:

This is honestly a bit disappointing. I mean the stages that are in are fantastic, but seriously, only one N64 stage? Why? Are the gonna be more as DLC? ...As much as I hate to ask, did Nintendo pull a Capcom?

Edit: 23 new stages, including Big Battlefield, but not including Flat Zone X or Miiverse.

Brawl had 29 new stages.

Melee had 24 new stages.

(Note: None of these lists include vanilla Battlefield or FD)

I'm not saying I'm mad or anything, just a bit disappointed that this is the smallest list of new stages we've had since 64.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

This is honestly a bit disappointing. I mean the stages that are in are fantastic, but seriously, only one N64 stage? Why? Are the gonna be more as DLC? ...As much as I hate to ask, did Nintendo pull a Capcom?

I expected around 35 stages on both versions so I can't be upset with this stage set of 46 for the version that matters. I'm not sure why it matters if we have zero, one, or nine N64 stages since a stage is a stage and it's about how many good stages we have and not where they came from (and honestly, this was by far the best choice for an N64 stage). We obviously don't know if there's traces of DLC on disc for sure, but I severely doubt Nintendo has completed DLC they are withholding on disc to sell to us at a profit later since, if the DLC were done, we would not be waiting until the spring for Mewtwo and either way Nintendo has a record at this point of avoiding poor business practices with DLC. None of this is really relevant to stage analysis and discussion, but I think we can be very happy with the quality and quantity of content here.

I suppose the main thing is that now that we're sure of everything that's in the game we need to be ready to figure out how it all works. My first goal is going to be tracing out the exact dynamics of Orbital Gate Assault, but I also want to clarify every dynamic in Garden of Hope, every change in Pokemon Stadium 2, how much the cars in PTAD were weakened, and if there have been any changes to the hazards on Norfair in general. Those are I feel going to be the early places where knowledge will really be abel to direct us and hence my focus, and I hope everyone has some kinds of priorities of things to look out for or specifically test out in less than two days (!!) so we can hit the ground running on getting the stage list for this game in order.

 

[Slyphoria]

I expected around 35 stages on both versions so I can't be upset with this stage set of 46 for the version that matters. I'm not sure why it matters if we have zero, one, or nine N64 stages since a stage is a stage and it's about how many good stages we have and not where they came from (and honestly, this was by far the best choice for an N64 stage). We obviously don't know if there's traces of DLC on disc for sure, but I severely doubt Nintendo has completed DLC they are withholding on disc to sell to us at a profit later since, if the DLC were done, we would not be waiting until the spring for Mewtwo and either way Nintendo has a record at this point of avoiding poor business practices with DLC. None of this is really relevant ot stage analysis and discussion, but I think we can be very happy with the quality and quantity of content here.

I suppose the main thing is that now that we're sure of everything that's in the game we need to be ready to figure out how it all works. My first goal is going to be tracing out the exact dynamics of Orbital Gate Assault, but I also want to clarify every dynamic in Garden of Hope, every change in Pokemon Stadium 2, how much the cars in PTAD were weakened, and if there have been any changes to the hazards on Norfair in general. Those are I feel going to be the early places where knowledge will really be abel to direct us and hence my focus, and I hope everyone has some kinds of priorities of things to look out for or specifically test out in less than two days (!!) so we can hit the ground running on getting the stage list for this game in order.

Yeah, I'll be testing the stages as much as possible over the weekend. Even just letting it run while doing homework on my netbook, in the cases of stages like Kalos Pokemon League.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

This is honestly a bit disappointing. I mean the stages that are in are fantastic, but seriously, only one N64 stage? Why? Are the gonna be more as DLC? ...As much as I hate to ask, did Nintendo pull a Capcom?

Edit: 23 new stages, including Big Battlefield, but not including Flat Zone X or Miiverse.

Brawl had 29 new stages.

Melee had 24 new stages.

(Note: None of these lists include vanilla Battlefield or FD)

I'm not saying I'm mad or anything, just a bit disappointed that this is the smallest list of new stages we've had since 64.

You're forgetting the new stages added to 3DS, which I believe numbers in 23.

So, in total, we have 46 new stages spread across two versions of the game. That's a lot of content.

 

[Seiniyta]

Let's see, regarding a potential legal stage list:

FD
Battlefield/Miiverse
Big Battlefield (?) (too big?)
Duck Hunt stage
Smashville
Town & City
Delfino Plaza
Halbert
Congo Jungle 64
Pokemon Stadium 2
Pilot Wings
Lyat Wars
Skyworld
Wuhu Island

Any I'm forgetting? Even if some of those won't be in, it still leaves a healthy amount. which is a relief with the limited amount of proper 3DS stages.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Let's see, regarding a potential legal stage list:

FD
Battlefield/Miiverse
Big Battlefield (?) (too big?)
Duck Hunt stage
Smashville
Town and City
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Congo Jungle 64
Pokemon Stadium 2
Pilot Wings
Lyat Wars
Skyworld

Any I'm forgetting? Even if some of those won't be in, it still leaves a healthy amount. which is a relief with the limited amount of proper 3DS stages.

fix'd
not to mention Skyloft, Wuhu Island, Wii Fit Studio and Mario Galaxy.

 

[Seiniyta]

fix'd
not to mention Skyloft, Wuhu Island, Wii Fit Studio and Mario Galaxy.

Oh right, thanks and yeah. Skyloft seems like a good stage, Isn't WiiFit Studio and Mario Galaxy stage walkoffs though?

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Oh right, thanks and yeah. Skyloft seems like a good stage, Isn't WiiFit Studio and Mario Galaxy stage walkoffs though?

they are, but unlike most other walkoffs, that's the only objectionable thing about them. I think they have the potential to be counterpicks. No hazards like in Bridge of Eldon, no scrolling like Mushroomy Kingdom, no teching off blocks like in the Melee Mushroom Kingdom stage, etc

 

[SonicZeroX]

No new F-Zero or Earthbound stage? I mean I know we got new ones in the 3DS version but still

Anyways let's see what we got.

Certainly legal are: Battlefield, FD, Lylat, Smashville, Town and City, Haliberd, Castle Siege
These were all legal in Brawl (+town) and assuming nothing drastic has somehow changed about any of them they should be fine now too.

Very likely legal: Duck Hunt, Pilotwings, Delfino Plaza
Delfino was a fringe case in Brawl due to Metaknight. The other two are hazardless but new so it's hard to be 100% sure on them but it's pretty likely.

Likely legal: Skyloft, Wuhu Island
These stages look good but are brand new so a bit of playtesting would be nice just to be sure. Even if every stage below this isn't used, we still have 12 stages.

Possibly legal: Big Battlefield, Kongo 64, Pokemon Stadium 2, Norfair, Windy Hill
These stages possibly might not be legal due to the possibility of circle camping or maybe the hazards are too disruptive, but they don't seem so bad that they can be written off yet. Definitely needs testing to make sure.

Neutral Walkoffs: Mario Galaxy, Coliseum, Wii Fit
These stages are totally neutral, but are walkoffs which are always controversial. They're worth giving a good look at now especially since there are no chaingrabs and projectiles have mostly been tuned down in this game.

Maybe: Mario World (gotta test nabbit firsthand), Mario Circuit 8, Luigi's Mansion, Jungle Hijinx, Port Town, Wooly World, Orbital Gate, Kalos, Skyworld, Gamer, Garden of Hope, Wrecking Crew
These stages are probably controversial enough that if they are legal they won't be more than counterpicks. Still worth testing though for sure.

Not so neutral walkoffs: Mario Circuit Brawl, Bridge of Eldin, Boxing Ring, Onett
Very likely to be ignored, abut the hazards on these stages aren't actually that bad, and if it weren't for the walkoffs these stages would probably have a better chance.

No: Temple, Ridleyland, Yoshi's Island, Great Cave, Flatzone X, Palutena's, Gaur Plains, 75m, Wiliy's Castle, MS Paint land
Just no.

 

[popsofctown]

Walkoffs that don't transform can't be legal due to walk off camping.

Walkoffs with hazards are actually more viable than those without because the hazards reduce the effectiveness of walkoff camping a little bit.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Walkoffs that don't transform can't be legal due to walk off camping.

Walkoffs with hazards are actually more viable than those without because the hazards reduce the effectiveness of walkoff camping a little bit.

except we dont have chaingrabs anymore and projectiles have been toned down. Two of the major problems with walkoff camping are addressed now. We should at least test the harmless walkoffs before we make sweeping judgements

 

[popsofctown]

Projectiles are actually a really good anti-walkoff camp strategy, and their being toned down is a bad thing.

The issues is that if one Ike is at 75% in a mirror and the other is at 0%, the dominant strategy is for the healthier Ike to stand near the blastzone and wait for the fight to come to him. If it doesn't come, he wins by timeout. If it does come, he gets to play rock-paper-scissors against the approach, except that half his stuff results in an immediate kill and none of the losing Ike's stuff does.

You do still get to engage unlike circle camping, but you're at a heavy disdvantage based only on the results of as much interaction as Sudden Death mode, the first few % of the match.


It's like Magicant where the match is all but decided in the first 30 seconds. Though I would actually much, much rather play on Magicant.

 

[Terotrous]

You're missing the point. The transitions themselves creating walls/ceilings is not what I was complaining about.

The track being active (as a wall or ceiling) WHILE THE STAGE IS MOVING is what I was complaining about.

I got that part. It's still deterministic and doesn't really shift that rapidly. It also only saved Lucario once.

Projectiles are actually a really good anti-walkoff camp strategy

Unless you can reflect or absorb.


I was going to attempt a stagelist but I basically just agree with SonicZeroX.