SSB 3DS - What should the ruleset be?

[sWiTcHeRoO [疾~斬]]

Alright, I watched the very first community-hosted 3DS tournament yesterday, all ran by Tourney Locator with a few top players from other games being participants in it, and based on how they ran it, I want to inform everyone on what I think of their ruleset and how it could impact the tournament life of this game.

It was all very simple really. Like Oracle brought up once or twice in the stream while commentating between his matches (and if I'm not mistaken, he was the one updating the tournament's data), using Swiss Round will be an actual possibility for SSB 3DS (and only 3DS) because every participant -for the most part of course- is expected to essentially bring in their own "set", that being their 3DS system and their own copy of the game once it releases in October. Then again, all of this is down to each TO's decision.

That aside, next comes the match rules. In my opinion, 2 stocks and a Bo5 format for all sets would be a good option to provide players with a comeback factor, though at the same time, it would most likely take too long, but if it is tested and proves to be a bad decision, Bo3 would be the perfect choice instead. 3 stocks should NOT be done for this game, even if there are combos to an extent and only on low damage percentages, the launch power behind most attacks makes it impossible to perform follow-ups sometimes, and coupled with the fact that blast zones are MASSIVE in the viable stages, KOs take quite some time to get. Matches can even get to time-out depending on the MU, as well as the player's or players' playstyle(s). Think of it as being a Melee-ish match on lower percentages, which then turns into a Brawl match once damage has racked up enough. While matches are still highly engaging and not all that defensive (in certain MUs, mind you), they still take too long after the 50% range because of these factors, which need to be taken into consideration when planning tournaments for the game.

Now, I don't know the trade of TOing, but I hope players and maybe even TOs that see this can discuss about this, so that we can try to get enjoyable and at the very least decently paced tournaments once the US release comes. TLOC's tournament yesterday was a great "experiment" of sorts in my eyes, and I think it'll serve as good source material once other people start running tournaments like it later on.
If I made any mistakes on the things I mention, then let me know.

 

[PowerHungryFool]

Hopefully when players master the new ledge game matches wil be a bit shorter, but for now 2 stocks and Bo5 seem to be hitting the nail on the head, IMO.

 

[Foosedogg]

3 Stock, 5 Minutes, No Items, and I might think up a stage list. I think that 4 stock 8 minutes was cool, but the 3DS's bad control scheme and easy to break circle pads make it so matches should be shorter. Wait until the Wii U version for traditional 4-8 rules.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

3 Stock, 5 Minutes, No Items, and I might think up a stage list. I think that 4 stock 8 minutes was cool, but the 3DS's bad control scheme and easy to break circle pads make it so matches should be shorter. Wait until the Wii U version for traditional 4-8 rules.

3 stock 5 mins is way too short for the amount of stocks. Compared to a 4 stock 8 minute rule (which is already really long and many matches would end up being very close to 8 minutes or end due to timeout), 3 stock 5 min has an even higher stock:time ratio.

Also making matches shorter makes no sense, that won't help prevent breaking circle pads. Might as well just not play at all if you want to avoid breaking things. Also people break the pads even when playing games like animal crossing, you should really just be careful with it and it won't break. It's not because of Smash it's because people aren't using it well.

Even 4 stock 8 minutes is way too low on time. The game has sped up since Brawl but that doesn't mean there aren't slower paced MUs either, and those will definitely frequently reach 2 minutes per stock and get very close to 8 mins or timeout. The time isn't meant to rush people it's meant to help end a match if one player has a lead but due to the nature of the match it would take very long to end it without extra help.


I strongly believe in 3 stocks 8 minutes, just like in Brawl. Unlike what many other people say, good players are already showing good edgeguarding skills and getting quick kills. The game is only 1 week old, and only for those who have the Japanese version -- stocks will be taken even faster, especially comparing 1 year from now to the currently 1 week experienced players. Matches are ending at about the same speed as in Brawl, and 3 stock 8 minutes (average 4-6 min length) felt very natural.



@OP "watched the very first community-hosted 3DS tournament yesterday"

Also this is a very strange thing to say; not sure what the meaning is or significance of it being the first "community-hosted" tournament.


Sorry if I'm being super critical.

 

[snaptrap]

I vote for 2 stocks, 6 minutes, no items, and certain custom moves to be allowed. Especially for Palutena. It seems that the new ledge mechanic extends stocks a lot since you can no longer edgehog to gimp stocks early. It's a nice middle ground, and allows for enough time to adapt to your opponent's playstyle. 3 stocks, 8 minutes takes too long in my opinion.

 

[sWiTcHeRoO [疾~斬]]

@OP "watched the very first community-hosted 3DS tournament yesterday"

Also this is a very strange thing to say; not sure what the meaning is or significance of it being the first "community-hosted" tournament.


Sorry if I'm being super critical.

I'm just specifying what it was that I watched, that being TLOC's tournament for SSB4, the very first one at that (to my knowledge). And I feel it's worth noting that it was the very first tournament ran by people within the community rather than, say, what Nintendo's been doing, because since it's ran by some people in the community, the rulesets used make it an actual tournament setting rather than FFA timed matches or some other dumb thing like that.

Not only that, but I feel it's a good example other TOs could learn from. Bwett and Infinity had another tournament at Bwett's house yesterday, and Infinity said that if people are considering time constraints and have a ton more players to go through, 2 stocks is the better option. If time isn't an issue and you have a small amount of participants (they had 16 yesterday and at the previous one), then 3 stocks is fairly viable. I kinda see what he's getting at, and it's all stuff that should definitely be considered. The metagame is hardly starting, so there's still room for testing out different rulesets until one that works perfectly for each scenario is found.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I'm just specifying what it was that I watched, that being TLOC's tournament for SSB4, the very first one at that (to my knowledge). And I feel it's worth noting that it was the very first tournament ran by people within the community rather than, say, what Nintendo's been doing, because since it's ran by some people in the community, the rulesets used make it an actual tournament setting rather than FFA timed matches or some other dumb thing like that.

Not only that, but I feel it's a good example other TOs could learn from. Bwett and Infinity had another tournament at Bwett's house yesterday, and Infinity said that if people are considering time constraints and have a ton more players to go through, 2 stocks is the better option. If time isn't an issue and you have a small amount of participants (they had 16 yesterday and at the previous one), then 3 stocks is fairly viable. I kinda see what he's getting at, and it's all stuff that should definitely be considered. The metagame is hardly starting, so there's still room for testing out different rulesets until one that works perfectly for each scenario is found.

Ah, thanks for clarifying. I should've understood that in the beginning, but didn't some reason. It's also beneficial to the 3DS version in that everyone will have their own 3DS, so matches can actually be longer since everyone will have their own system and matches can happen a lot faster and a lot more at once.

 

[Boy Jordan]

Firstly, I'd like to say that there are a lot of individual topics to discuss when considering tournament rules. I encourage everyone posting here to also speak up in the Smash 3DS Competitive Discussion board, where these topics can be discussed more thoroughly. (Early arguments are healthy for a competitive community. We need more posters!) Secondly, I'd like to give my two cents where the amount of stocks and time is concerned: three stocks and eight minutes is likely the way to go.

Remember that any rules we implement need to serve the purpose of determining players' skills. Gimps and self-destructs happen rather frequently; in a match with only two stocks, a single stock lost already costs you 50% of the game. More stocks offers a player more opportunities to showcase their skill, which is what we're aiming for. As far as the time goes: longer is better! A shorter timer means that players can more easily take advantage of timing out a match. Past tournaments have shown that a shorter timer actually causes matches to take longer than those with longer timers, since the players are more prone to employ stalling tactics.

 

[Bagel Spanker]

I think 3 stocks 8 minutes or 2 stocks 6 minutes is the best way to play at the moment. I'm leaning towards 3 stocks for now.

 

[menotyou135]

Someone averaged out the time it took to run Bo2 and Bo3.

Bo3 was a shorter time than brawl, and Bo2 lasted like 2 minutes or something

The idea that matches are going on forever is bull****. Anybody who thinks it is letting theorycrafting get in the way of actual data. How about we actually test **** before claiming it is broken huh?

 

[Lukingordex]

3 stocks and 7/8 minutes is the best because 2 stock and 5 minutes is what Sakurai thinks it's the right ruleset to use and he's always wrong about competitive stuff. :T

 

[Llumys]

3 Stock, 5 Minutes, No Items, and I might think up a stage list. I think that 4 stock 8 minutes was cool, but the 3DS's bad control scheme and easy to break circle pads make it so matches should be shorter. Wait until the Wii U version for traditional 4-8 rules.

Traditional? 4 stocks 8 minutes is only used in Melee and Project M. 64 uses 5 stocks, and Brawl uses 3 stocks and 8 minutes for the most part.

Smash 4 doesn't look like it would work with 4 stocks. Distant blast zones and vector influence make the stocks quite long. I imagine we won't ever use anything over 3 stocks.

 

[sWiTcHeRoO [疾~斬]]

Traditional? 4 stocks 8 minutes is only used in Melee and Project M. 64 uses 5 stocks, and Brawl uses 3 stocks and 8 minutes for the most part.

Smash 4 doesn't look like it would work with 4 stocks. Distant blast zones and vector influence make the stocks quite long. I imagine we won't ever use anything over 3 stocks.

Yeah, this is exactly what I'm getting at.
2 Stocks help with the blast zones and vectoring issues, but 3 Stocks help players have a better chance to make a comeback, much like what Boy Jordan brings up. This is all something that needs to be tried more once every other region gets it, the meta isn't going to develop unless we try out things until we find what's right.

 

[menotyou135]

So let me get this straight.

Everybody so far is saying that this game's pace is somewhere between brawl (3 stocks) and melee (4 stocks)

So Because it is faster than brawl, we should have less stocks than brawl?

I am getting that right, right?

I get the blastzone thing, but how about you actually test it before saying that it's going to make the game too slow. Do you have any data at all to support that claim? Any at all?

 

[sWiTcHeRoO [疾~斬]]

So let me get this straight.

Everybody so far is saying that this game's pace is somewhere between brawl (3 stocks) and melee (4 stocks)

So Because it is faster than brawl, we should have less stocks than brawl?

I am getting that right, right?

I get the blastzone thing, but how about you actually test it before saying that it's going to make the game too slow. Do you have any data at all to support that claim? Any at all?

We're not saying that it being faster than Brawl means less stocks should be used. I don't want to seem like I'm speaking for everyone with this or something, but regardless, 2-3 stocks should be used because, even though the game has some degree of combo potential and the mechanics overall make it much faster and engaging than Brawl, it's really hard to get KOs because of the blast zones being massive, as well as the launch power behind moves. It might seem good that attacks have strong launch power, but due to the blast zones being massive it's just not enough to kill reliably, and people get so far at a certain distance that just makes it hard to follow up into some other aerial for a kill.

Not only that, but, while there IS more hitstun than Brawl, there's still not much of it, so you're only left with the option to land a strong move that will kill reliably or else both players will be stuck trying to take each other out despite being over 120%.

4 stocks works for Melee because the hitstun offers a good enough window for big combos and assured kills. 5 stocks works for 64 because the hitstun in that game is ridiculous, players die easily due to zero-to-death combos most of the time as a result, so they need more stocks to provide a comeback factor. With Brawl, 3 stocks works because of how defensive the game is, and even then they decided to try 1 stock only before the game seemingly died off. It's THAT defensive.

In SSB4's case, despite not being defensive like Brawl, it still needs 3 stocks (or 2, both work just fine, it all depends on time constraints and player attendance) because of the issues I've brought up more than once so far. If you want, you can check out some of the TLOC tournament I've been referencing here. As for their second 16-man tournament, you can check it out here. In one of the second tournament's matches (listen from that point until 3:30), Infinity mentions that in some tournament Clash Tournaments ran, the average KOs happened at around 131%, while at the "invitational" by TLOC people averagely died at around 121%.

 

[menotyou135]

I have no problem whatsoever with 3. That is what I think it should be. However, saying that it needs dropped to 2 stocks with 1 week of release, and 2 weeks till 99% of people in america have the game is silly. Before we drop it to 2 stocks we need to actually test that 2 stocks is necessary at all. That is all I was saying. If it is faster than brawl, why give fewer lives than brawl.

 

[nintyplayer]

2 stocks is ridiculous. And time limits are also ridiculous. If I had my way, it would be a time limit free 10 stock match every time. But that's not realistic. 3 stocks, 8 minutes should be perfectly fine. Smash is not a game about just being fast, and we shouldn't discard a whole stock in the rules because of the possibility that people might play for 1 or 2 minutes longer. Heck, it's a game, people enjoy it, even if it's competitive there's no reason why anyone, even tournament organizers, should be shaking their fists and yelling "Hurry up! You're not allowed to play for that long!"

I've said it before and I'll say it again: custom movesets, custom controls, and Miis should be allowed. There is no reason to cut 3 characters from the game, even if you dislike Miis. If the competitive Pokemon community can regulate combinations of hundreds of moves and abilities and decide which ones are and are not legal, the Smash community can handle a few variations of movesets. The "random" factor here is negligible, as I predict most custom moves in the game and combinations of moves will be perfectly fair and nothing will be broken. Honestly, if unpredictability is a factor, then players should be able to submit the custom moveset which they prefer to use with the characters they intend to use while in competitive play, and both players could easily be made aware of the other player's custom set.

If you're worried that setting up custom moves for a character -- something that might take a whole 60 seconds to do -- will take too long, you shouldn't be playing this game. Let me be frank; you're not so important that an extra minute of time before a match will change your quality of life.

Items should be off. Final Destination Mode should not be allowed (we already have FD and I like some variability in my games). Glitch abuse should not be allowed (but is hilarious). Players should have freedom when it comes to okayed custom movesets, custom controls, choice of controller, names, character choice, and stages.

Stages should not be banned. Rather, game-breaking combinations of certain characters and certain stages should not be allowed. I know you all have about 3 stages in previous games that you'd go to, but let's face it, that's stale and doesn't allow for as exciting and dynamic gameplay as possible.

For simplicity's sake, though, a player should have to submit the characters they intend to use and the movesets they intend to have. I'd say 3 is a good limit, since most people will only become great at 1-3 characters anyway. But 5 should also be acceptable, if someone likes more variety and more options for counterpicking.

Oh. And players should be expected to not wear headphones during a match. It's disrespectful and obnoxious to see. And no pausing allowed unless it's absolutely necessary.

 

[smartguyc1089]

2 stocks is ridiculous. And time limits are also ridiculous. If I had my way, it would be a time limit free 10 stock match every time. But that's not realistic. 3 stocks, 8 minutes should be perfectly fine. Smash is not a game about just being fast, and we shouldn't discard a whole stock in the rules because of the possibility that people might play for 1 or 2 minutes longer. Heck, it's a game, people enjoy it, even if it's competitive there's no reason why anyone, even tournament organizers, should be shaking their fists and yelling "Hurry up! You're not allowed to play for that long!"

I've said it before and I'll say it again: custom movesets, custom controls, and Miis should be allowed. There is no reason to cut 3 characters from the game, even if you dislike Miis. If the competitive Pokemon community can regulate combinations of hundreds of moves and abilities and decide which ones are and are not legal, the Smash community can handle a few variations of movesets. The "random" factor here is negligible, as I predict most custom moves in the game and combinations of moves will be perfectly fair and nothing will be broken. Honestly, if unpredictability is a factor, then players should be able to submit the custom moveset which they prefer to use with the characters they intend to use while in competitive play, and both players could easily be made aware of the other player's custom set.

If you're worried that setting up custom moves for a character -- something that might take a whole 60 seconds to do -- will take too long, you shouldn't be playing this game. Let me be frank; you're not so important that an extra minute of time before a match will change your quality of life.

Items should be off. Final Destination Mode should not be allowed (we already have FD and I like some variability in my games). Glitch abuse should not be allowed (but is hilarious). Players should have freedom when it comes to okayed custom movesets, custom controls, choice of controller, names, character choice, and stages.

Stages should not be banned. Rather, game-breaking combinations of certain characters and certain stages should not be allowed. I know you all have about 3 stages in previous games that you'd go to, but let's face it, that's stale and doesn't allow for as exciting and dynamic gameplay as possible.

For simplicity's sake, though, a player should have to submit the characters they intend to use and the movesets they intend to have. I'd say 3 is a good limit, since most people will only become great at 1-3 characters anyway. But 5 should also be acceptable, if someone likes more variety and more options for counterpicking.

Oh. And players should be expected to not wear headphones during a match. It's disrespectful and obnoxious to see. And no pausing allowed unless it's absolutely necessary.

most stages contain random events that can damage or KO characters, and therefore are luck based. FD is fair. smashville was fair. if you want items off then FD and friends should there
the character submission thing is stupid. we should reward people who learn heaps of characters.

 

[nintyplayer]

most stages contain random events that can damage or KO characters, and therefore are luck based. FD is fair. smashville was fair. if you want items off then FD and friends should there
the character submission thing is stupid. we should reward people who learn heaps of characters.

EDIT:
I don't believe that any stage in any Smash Bros game had completely game breaking stage hazards. In 64, those tornados in Hyrule could be an issue, but could easily be avoided and become part of your strategy while playing. In Melee, you had what, the cars from the Earthbound stage? Easily avoidable. In Brawl, the chimera could be an issue if you went out of your way to go up to it, I guess. If you could name some stages where competitive play is absolutely impossible, then that's fair; but if your issue is with the stage hazards simply being a random element, then I don't think your argument is valid. Ultimately, if you're completely against random elements, I suppose you could ONLY play on FD or Battlefield, but I don't think that makes for an exciting experience at all.

 

[Boy Jordan]

Oh. And players should be expected to not wear headphones during a match. It's disrespectful and obnoxious to see. And no pausing allowed unless it's absolutely necessary.

Quite a few things about your post are questionable, but I'm curious about this one in particular. What's disrespectful or obnoxious about wearing headphones during a match? I personally do this at every single tourney I attend. Noise canceling headphones that prevent cheers and boos from distracting me from the game. My favorite song from Avenged Sevenfold on repeat to keep me pumped and determined. What's the issue here?

 

[nintyplayer]

Quite a few things about your post are questionable, but I'm curious about this one in particular. What's disrespectful or obnoxious about wearing headphones during a match? I personally do this at every single tourney I attend. Noise canceling headphones that prevent cheers and boos from distracting me from the game. My favorite song from Avenged Sevenfold on repeat to keep me pumped and determined. What's the issue here?

To me, it implies that your full concentration isn't on the game.
In a professional setting, you don't see headphones anywhere else. Track runners may wear headphones while jogging around town, but in a 100 they're not wearing them. Being a good competitive player should also imply performing well in the setting where things like opponent smack-talk or a crowd may distract you. Similarly, a musician on stage might wear headphones and play along with a song while at home, but in a professional performance where they have a crowd and are showing off their ability, they don't wear it despite the fact that playing in front of a crowd is unsettling.

In my personal life I don't play games with people who use electronics during the game which aren't part of the game. If I'm playing Dungeons and Dragons and someone is on a laptop, texting on their phone, or messing around with something else, it's disrespectful -- and I should certainly expect the same level of respect from Smash players as I do from the players at that table.

Also the music in Smash is pretty good and we should all listen to it because people put a lot of time and effort into making it. The experience of the game simply isn't the same without it.

 

[smartguyc1089]

Also the music in Smash is pretty good and we should all listen to it because people put a lot of time and effort into making it. The experience of the game simply isn't the same without it.

just put headphones in the console then

 

[menotyou135]

Headphone comment is pretty BS. It's a really silly thing to ban. The fact that you find it disrespectful is just really silly. It isn't like you are trashtalking someone, and trashtalking isn't even banned at the vast majority of events.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

"No headphones" is the silliest thing I've ever heard tbh it just seems totally arbitrary

I play Smash a lot better with my own music where I can tune everything out, and loads of other players do too, no point taking that away to look more "professional" if it's gonna do nothing but detriment certain players and have the opposite effect

 

[sWiTcHeRoO [疾~斬]]

Man, you sound like you're trying to revolutionize Smash tournaments as a whole with everything you've said so far.

Time does matter in Smash tournaments because there will most definitely be tons of participants to go through. Maybe for the 3DS version it won't be necessary to run only 2 stocks, since everyone is expected to bring in their own 3DS, which makes everything much faster.
But if we think about the Wii U version, which will be limited to the setups (console, TV, desks/tables, chairs, etc.) TOs will be limited to, running 3 stocks would be time consuming and wouldn't be feasible, as it'd take too long to finish the tournament on time, and Smashers usually tend to have to leave venues at a certain time unless it's something like Evo or Apex, where they will definitely be able to stay the night at some hotel and resume the next portion of the tournament the following day.

 

[nintyplayer]

Yeah, I get that time limits are important in tourneys, which is why I wouldn't impose the time limit free 10 stock standard I usually play in my free time on any of the other games. But 3 stocks at 8 minutes is perfectly reasonable. Add 30-90 seconds max for each player to do custom controls/custom movesets (or even shorter on the 3DS version; almost instant) and you've got an average of less than 10 minutes per game.
Let's say you're running a tourney with, oh, 48 people playing. Now let's say every one of these matches timed out, with an average time of 9 minutes due to custom movesets. Now let's assume each set is best of 3, for a maximum of 5 games per matchup. I'd say that your tourney would take approximately 35 hours maximum on one television. As a rough estimate, having 5-12 televisions shouldn't be too much of a problem; let's say 10. Now, my math isn't perfect here, but it should lower the amount of time down to 3.5 hours, maybe 4 if everyone goes the full 5 games per matchup. The math isn't absolutely perfect, but that's a simple way of looking at it.

I personally would have no issue with a 3-5 hour tournament, though I see how some people would.
At 6 minutes it should be dramatically shorter. But if football players can play their game professionally for an average of 3.2 hours per game of constant running, throwing, catching, tackling, and kicking, Smash players can press buttons for 4 hours.

EDIT:
As for headphones, I'll just say this: I wouldn't wear headphones while playing with friends, I wouldn't wear headphones while playing chess or shogi or jenga, I wouldn't wear headphones while sparring at the dojo, I wouldn't wear headphones while watching a movie with others, and I certainly wouldn't wear headphones while in an important match against someone of an admirable skill level.

 

[menotyou135]

Man, you sound like you're trying to revolutionize Smash tournaments as a whole with everything you've said so far.

Time does matter in Smash tournaments because there will most definitely be tons of participants to go through. Maybe for the 3DS version it won't be necessary to run only 2 stocks, since everyone is expected to bring in their own 3DS, which makes everything much faster.
But if we think about the Wii U version, which will be limited to the setups (console, TV, desks/tables, chairs, etc.) TOs will be limited to, running 3 stocks would be time consuming and wouldn't be feasible, as it'd take too long to finish the tournament on time, and Smashers usually tend to have to leave venues at a certain time unless it's something like Evo or Apex, where they will definitely be able to stay the night at some hotel and resume the next portion of the tournament the following day.

EDIT: Look at this: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2gr4u3/game_length_data_compiled_from_tourney_locators/

Again, how can you say that 3 stocks isn't feasible when you have no data to prove that?

You literally have zero data to support this claim. Brawl worked at 3 stocks and the average match lasted like 5 minutes. Someone averaged the match lengths of 3 stock matches and the average match was around 4:30, which is 30 seconds faster.

Why would we make the stocks lower if the game runs at the same speed or faster.

Show me data supporting the claim that 3 stocks takes to long. You can't because there is not data supporting it.

You are wildly speculating match lengths being too short before the game is even out here with no actual data to support your claims.

 

[menotyou135]

http://smashboards.com/threads/blas...m-tourney-locators-invitation-tourney.368643/

Average 2 stock game length: 2:38
Average 3 stock game length: 4:27

Real data to support real claims.

You want to make it where matches are completed twice as fast as melee.

Wild Speculation does not beat Data. I am sorry.

 

[Marxally]

3 stocks 5 minutes, that should be enough.

 

[Troyfullbuster]

I still vote for 3 stocks though with 7 minutes. But maybe the 3DS blast zones are just bigger and/or character's don't have the knockback they used to. Let's see how 2-stocks pans out and maybe if the Wii U version will be faster matches/have differences in its gameplay

 

[GTZ]

Bowser, no items, Battlefield Omega, 3 stock, 8 minutes.

 

[Trickerhere]

2 stocks 5 minutes

 

[Khao]

I still don't know why is 8 minutes suddenly so unnacceptable in the eyes of so much people.

I really don't see the point in 5 minute matches, why not just keep it at 8, where you have more than enough time to do 3 stock?

 

[DJCrinkleCut]

I still don't know why is 8 minutes suddenly so unnacceptable in the eyes of so much people.

I really don't see the point in 5 minute matches, why not just keep it at 8, where you have more than enough time to do 3 stock?

My problem is that it seems that too many matches could come close to that 8 minute mark. In Melee and PM 8 minutes is very rarely reached, in this game it seems possible that that limit could be reached.
I also believe that the game is young and people are learning how to actually kill in this game. I think ultimately, 3 Stock 8 minutes will be a fine ruleset.

 

[Khao]

My problem is that it seems that too many matches could come close to that 8 minute mark. In Melee and PM 8 minutes is very rarely reached, in this game it seems possible that that limit could be reached.

The thing is that running out of time is as much of a problem as it'd be with 2 Stock 5 Minutes, which is what a lot of people are proposing. You're actually getting less time per stock with those rules than 3 Stock 8 Minutes.

 

[DJCrinkleCut]

The thing is that running out of time is as much of a problem as it'd be with 2 Stock 5 Minutes, which is what a lot of people are proposing. You're actually getting less time per stock with those rules than 3 Stock 8 Minutes.

The problem isn't that you're running out of time, the problem is that every match would be lasting eight minutes. That's a lot of ****ing time, especially when it's multiple games, and Smash tournaments already tend to last a long ass time.

 

[menotyou135]

the problem is that every match would be lasting eight minutes.

Come the **** on. You have exactly 0 data to support this.

http://smashboards.com/threads/blas...m-tourney-locators-invitation-tourney.368643/

Average 2 stock game length: 2:38
Average 3 stock game length: 4:27

Real data to support real claims.

You want to make it where matches are completed twice as fast as melee.

Wild Speculation does not beat Data. I am sorry.

Average 3 stock game length: 4:27

Average 3 stock game length: 4:27

Average 3 stock game length: 4:27

Average 3 stock game length: 4:27

 

[wifishark]

I totally support the usage of custom moves.

 

[Morbi]

Honestly, I am an advocate of "two stocks, five minutes." The rule-set gives credence to the "For Glory" mode, hence making the game more accessible to beginners and spectators alike. A lot of people are interested in "two stock" matches to speed games along and the best counter-argument that I have read insinuates that there is no inherent need to change, so we should not change. If there were a more logical reason for "three stocks, eight minutes" I would not mind the opposition. The point is, people are interested in change and they feel as though matches are taking to long. It does not matter if that is objectively the case as we are dealing with a subjective notion. I suppose people to not want to stagnant the mentality that the game is Brawl 2.0 by maintaining the same rule-set.

Three stocks would not be so bad if we did not need to deal with the eight minute timer. That is the real issue with three stocks. In Melee, the eight minute timer is there as a formality, rarely does it ever run-out. In Brawl, it was a viable strategy to wait for the timer. No one wants that **** to happen in Smash 4. Simple as that.

"Three stocks and six minutes" might be more favorable. Sometimes I feel as though we just focus too much on the stock count rather than the underlying issue. Oh well. The rule-set does not matter too much to me. I just want the game to be faster paced and I have deluded myself into believing that two stock matches are the answer.

 

[menotyou135]

A lot of people are interested in "two stock" matches to speed games along and the best counter-argument that I have read insinuates that there is no inherent need to change, so we should not change. If there were a more logical reason for "three stocks, eight minutes" I would not mind the opposition. The point is, people are interested in change and they feel as though matches are taking to long.

This just isn't true. There are several arguments in this thread outside of the "no inherent need to change" one. Re-read the thread.

If you don't feel like it, here are a few of the reasons:

In a 2 stock match, the ability to make a comeback is negated entirely.

Games are incredibly short (cough, 2:38 cough), making the games shorter than melee 3 stocks.

The viability of stalling the time out is higher on 2s5m (person only needs to stall 2:30 per stock) than 3s8m (2:40 per stock), meaning more games will have a focus on stalling even if it is a relatively small change.

Games are unsatisfying to play in generally when they are super short. Look at the controversy behind 3 stock matches in PM and that only changed average match length to the 3-4 minute range. 2 Stock in S4 is 2:38 based off current stats at the Clash tourney, meaning it is a minute shorter than PM 3 stock which already caused controversy on having games go too fast.

I could go on, but it would be much easier for you to just read this thread and the thread I linked above (twice).