SSB 3DS - What should the ruleset be?

[mochiasta]

I vote for 2 stocks, 6 minutes, no items, and certain custom moves to be allowed. Especially for Palutena. It seems that the new ledge mechanic extends stocks a lot since you can no longer edgehog to gimp stocks early. It's a nice middle ground, and allows for enough time to adapt to your opponent's playstyle. 3 stocks, 8 minutes takes too long in my opinion.

I disagree, i don't like the idea of custom moves in tourneys. It throws off the balance

 

[DJCrinkleCut]

Come the **** on. You have exactly 0 data to support this.

If you had actually read what I had written, you would know that I support the 3 Stock 8 minute ruleset, I was merely playing devil's advocate.
The matches lasting 8 minutes thing is speculation based on the fact that the blast zones are large in this game. People are worried that too many matches will approach the time limit of 8 minutes, and smash tournaments last long enough as it is.

 

[chipndip]

I for one think that competitive play for the game should just be based on whatever "For Glory" mode allows. It'll allow one to better practice for tournaments because competitive play will match what we can do on our own online. It just makes more sense.

Custom moves are nice and all, but it'd be much more practical in the long run to just emulate the 2 stocks, FD mode, no custom move setup of Glory Mode.

Edit: You "could" vouch for longer matches with more stocks, but for expanding the scene, what's better?

1) "If you wanna practice, just hit up For Glory mode until next week before that tourney starts. We can play a few sessions too next time I see you."

or

2) "If you wanna practice, you could sort of do stuff in For Glory mode, but the tourney's gonna have different stages and more stocks and custom moves, so lemme round up a group and we can meet at X:XX on Xday and Xday before the tourney starts so we can play with their rules a bit."

"Yea...so A, B, and F couldn't make it...looks like it's you, me, and E! :D :D :D"

For simplicity's sake, I vouch for the Glory rules. >_>

 

[DJCrinkleCut]

The problem with using For Glory rules is that Final Destination is not a Neutral stage. Viable characters would likely be throttled to be the ones that are good on FD.
Also it would be boring as hell to watch nothing but FD.

 

[chipndip]

The problem with using For Glory rules is that Final Destination is not a Neutral stage. Viable characters would likely be throttled to be the ones that are good on FD.
Also it would be boring as hell to watch nothing but FD.

It's a blank, flat stage. How is that NOT a neutral stage? To boot, it's harder to run away and camp all day on a flat stage, especially when the chaser is someone like Ganondorf, who's horrid at chasing, period. >_>

To boot, who cares (or rather who should care) about it being FD all the time? Other fighting games have nothing but backgrounds on the same 2D/3D plane, and only 3D fighters bring something different per stage (usually stage dimensions). 2D fighters are almost always the same: Different theme, same scheme. Why can't Smash operate in a similar fashion? It's a 2D fighter just like the rest of 'em.

 

[DJCrinkleCut]

It's a blank, flat stage. How is that NOT a neutral stage? To boot, it's harder to run away and camp all day on a flat stage, especially when the chaser is someone like Ganondorf, who's horrid at chasing, period. >_>

To boot, who cares (or rather who should care) about it being FD all the time? Other fighting games have nothing but backgrounds on the same 2D/3D plane, and only 3D fighters bring something different per stage (usually stage dimensions). 2D fighters are almost always the same: Different theme, same scheme. Why can't Smash operate in a similar fashion? It's a 2D fighter just like the rest of 'em.

It's naive to say that Smash is the same as every other 2D fighter. Smash is so different at its core than any other fighter.
FD is not neutral in any way. In some PM rulesets it's even a counterpick. In general, characters with good projectiles and chaingrabs get a huge advantage on a flat, platformless stage. Faster characters also get an advantage, with its openness.

 

[menotyou135]

I for one think that competitive play for the game should just be based on whatever "For Glory" mode allows. It'll allow one to better practice for tournaments because competitive play will match what we can do on our own online. It just makes more sense.

Custom moves are nice and all, but it'd be much more practical in the long run to just emulate the 2 stocks, FD mode, no custom move setup of Glory Mode.

Edit: You "could" vouch for longer matches with more stocks, but for expanding the scene, what's better?

1) "If you wanna practice, just hit up For Glory mode until next week before that tourney starts. We can play a few sessions too next time I see you."

or

2) "If you wanna practice, you could sort of do stuff in For Glory mode, but the tourney's gonna have different stages and more stocks and custom moves, so lemme round up a group and we can meet at X:XX on Xday and Xday before the tourney starts so we can play with their rules a bit."

"Yea...so A, B, and F couldn't make it...looks like it's you, me, and E! :D :D :D"

For simplicity's sake, I vouch for the Glory rules. >_>

You cannot sacrifice competitive merit for mass appeal in order to grow a scene. The reverse always happens. It kills the scene.

Before I was a smasher, I was heavily into the Halo scene.

I am going to tell you a story of when the competitive Halo community tried something like this. When Halo Reach came out, the tournament organizers said that we should modify the mechanics as little as possible from default to attract new people. At that point in time, Halo 3 had been MLG's flagship title. A 256 team bracket would be sold out in hours of the tickets going on sale. Not weeks. Not days. Hours.

Halo reach hits, and there are a lot of ****ty mechanics. The most talked about one was sprint, which made the game play nothing like Halo 3 did and destroyed most of the elements Halo players liked about the game.

MLG asked pros whether to keep sprint to attract casuals, or remove sprint to stay to the original formula.

The pros voted in favor of removing sprint. MLG decided to veto their decision and keep sprint despite the fact that all the competitive players hated it. They said that because it is closer to default settings, more people would come in and watch the streams. They thought it would grow halo.

Fast forward about 6 months, and Halo events dropped off in popularity stupidly quick. Starcraft replaced it at the center stage. We no longer sold out 256 team brackets. In fact by the time MLG orlando rolled around, we couldn't even break 50 teams with over a month of the tickets being on sale. Halo was dead because halo reach sucked, and everybody in the competitive scene said that sprint was one of the main reasons (the other being bloom).

MLG then dropped Halo. They dropped the series that birthed their entire business. The flagship title that made MLG huge. The title that, had it not been so popular, melee would not have had it's time on the pro circuit because there would be no pro circuit.

The next year, MLG decided to run one last Halo even at columbus in 2011. Columbus events were always the biggest, and the developers of Halo released a patch that nullified bloom. MLG finally decided to remove sprint from the game for these settings and play the event as the Halo community wanted it.

After Orlando 2010's <50 teams, Columbus 2011 garnered about 180 teams because they made the game play more like previous games. That was the last hurrah. Halo has tried to run smaller tournaments over time with companies like AGL, but anybody with a brain can tell that Halo is dead. Halo 4 didn't even have the option to turn off sprint.

I am going to tell you from first hand experience that if you want to kill smash as fast as possible, then try to sacrifice competitive gameplay for broad appeal.

 

[menotyou135]

It's a blank, flat stage. How is that NOT a neutral stage? To boot, it's harder to run away and camp all day on a flat stage, especially when the chaser is someone like Ganondorf, who's horrid at chasing, period. >_>

To boot, who cares (or rather who should care) about it being FD all the time? Other fighting games have nothing but backgrounds on the same 2D/3D plane, and only 3D fighters bring something different per stage (usually stage dimensions). 2D fighters are almost always the same: Different theme, same scheme. Why can't Smash operate in a similar fashion? It's a 2D fighter just like the rest of 'em.

Marth vs Fox on FD is considered one of the only instances of fox being at a disadvantage. Characters without projectiles suffer on stages where they can't use platforms to avoid them (like Ganon and Bowser). Characters who have fast dash speeds benefit highly from wide stages like FD. Characters with good ground games benefit highly from not having to jump to attack those on platforms.

FD has never been considered a perfectly neutral stage by anybody who is any good at the game. Off the top of my head, I already know characters like Little Mac, Carizard, Marth, Fox, Falco, Mario, Falcon, Link, Megaman, and Sonic will benefit heavily from FD only, while characters like Ganondorf, Bowser, D3, Jiggz, and Kirby will suffer.

 

[Problem2]

Playing on nothing but FD is already getting stale fast for me. FD only for For Glory I guess works in order to keep it simple, but tournaments should try to allow as many fair stages as possible. If players choose 3 stocks, there is NO WAY we can have less than 8 minutes. I've had several 3 stock games nearly go to time or go to time. It does take a certain play style to achieve, but it is very possible to happen and the game just feels like a grind at that point. I do support 2 stock, 5 or 6 minute timer.

The stock & time limit debate is all subjective. It's hard to say who is justified.

 

[WinterShorts]

If people are mastering Vectoring, a lot of people are gonna say 2 stocks.

 

[Fortanono]

I dunno sh*t about the competitive scene, but I wanna join, so I'll try to think up a ruleset.

• 2 stocks, 6 minutes, no items.
• Stages allowed are Final Destination (maybe to mix things up, only Omega forms of banned stages), Battlefield, Boxing Ring (counterpick, any problem with stages without bottomless pits?), Yoshi's Island (hey, it was legal in Brawl, so...), Arena Ferox (counterpick, kinda looks like Pokémon Stadium), Prism Tower (counterpick, maybe...)
• Custom moves are used to balance the characters out by choosing moves that could make them lose (for top tiers) or win (for bottom tiers). Also, there could be, like, 2 counterpick moves as well.

 

[DJCrinkleCut]

I dunno sh*t about the competitive scene, but I wanna join, so I'll try to think up a ruleset.

• 2 stocks, 6 minutes, no items.
• Stages allowed are Final Destination (maybe to mix things up, only Omega forms of banned stages), Battlefield, Boxing Ring (counterpick, any problem with stages without bottomless pits?), Yoshi's Island (hey, it was legal in Brawl, so...), Arena Ferox (counterpick, kinda looks like Pokémon Stadium), Prism Tower (counterpick, maybe...)
• Custom moves are used to balance the characters out by choosing moves that could make them lose (for top tiers) or win (for bottom tiers). Also, there could be, like, 2 counterpick moves as well.

The problem with stages without pits (walk-offs) is that they encourage camping, and also takes out an entire part of Smash gameplay with off-stage play.
As far as stage selection goes, that should be for the stage discussion thread.
Custom Moves are so hard to say whether or not they should be legal I think. I want them to be legal, because they add a significant amount of variety, but at the same time, so many problems are posed by their inclusion that it's hard to come up with a definitive rule for them.

 

[chipndip]

It's naive to say that Smash is the same as every other 2D fighter. Smash is so different at its core than any other fighter.
FD is not neutral in any way. In some PM rulesets it's even a counterpick. In general, characters with good projectiles and chaingrabs get a huge advantage on a flat, platformless stage. Faster characters also get an advantage, with its openness.

It's a neutral stage because it has no other extras. It has no obstacles or extra props that people can take advantage of, so one would conclude that some characters do better against others because of the presence of obstacles and extra platforms, not that characters do worse because of their absence. So picking a stage with platforms only gives an advantage to someone who wouldn't have it otherwise, instead of the notion that removing them would do the same for someone else.

So instead of thinking of FD being a counter-pick stage for X, picking a stage that's beneficial in the X vs Y match-up for Y would be a counter-pick AGAINST X.

Secondly, we don't have to even worry about chain grabs. Let's keep the mindset on Sm4sh, not predecessors.

Edit: As for the story of yours I just now read:

1) Shooter =/= fighting game. Logistics of competitive play in either field don't mesh together.

2) Your story revolves around a mechanic that people wanted banned, not the in general setup of a match being held. They're moderately different subjects, although I do acknowledge the point you're attempting to get across.

3) There are games where their tourney rules match their online competitive play rules, especially in fighting games. If Halo's competitive play needed to be modified in such a manner, it just means that the default game wasn't enough to hold a competitive scene around after X amount of time. Regardless, it's not even the same genre, so the notion you're passing may see varying degrees of relevance depending on the specific case. In this case, we don't even know how FG rules would hold up just as much as 3 stock rules or whatever else, so why is it that FG rules specifically will "kill the scene"?

3.5) Starcraft is one hell of a drug. MOBAs and strategy RPGs are gonna dominate fighting games and shooters any day of the week in competitive gaming. That's just how the game goes, so it's not surprising Halo got bopped.

3.75) Obviously Microsoft is busy making money off of Halo 4 sales instead of Halo 4's competitive scene advertising, unlike Nintendo, who's given plenty of reason to believe that they actually considered the competitive scene this time around while still giving us a solid game without all the jerky movement of Melee or the floaty tripping of Brawl. You're comparing someone who cares to someone who doesn't. >_>

 

[Umaro]

The main problem with allowing custom specials is that there's nothing stopping a player from using equipment as well.

 

[DJCrinkleCut]

The main problem with allowing custom specials is that there's nothing stopping a player from using equipment as well.

Equipment is most certainly not allowed, and the way of stopping players from using it is that T.O.s can check, and experienced players will be able to tell.

It's a neutral stage because it has no other extras. It has no obstacles or extra props that people can take advantage of, so one would conclude that some characters do better against others because of the presence of obstacles and extra platforms, not that characters do worse because of their absence. So picking a stage with platforms only gives an advantage to someone who wouldn't have it otherwise, instead of the notion that removing them would do the same for someone else.

So instead of thinking of FD being a counter-pick stage for X, picking a stage that's beneficial in the X vs Y match-up for Y would be a counter-pick AGAINST X.

No, there are characters that do worse with the absence of platforms, and there are characters that do better with the absence of platforms. Ganondorf does poorly on FD because it limits his movement options, because he doesn't have platforms. I know that's a Melee thing, but it just shows a point -- that platforms enhance movement options for characters that aren't as fast while at the same time still being beneficial to characters that are fast. Fast characters will still be good on FD in Smash 4, and slow characters will still be bad on FD.
A neutral stage is where -- ideally -- neither character has a distinct advantage. FD is not that. The most neutral stages are Battlefield and Smashville, and the only reason Smashville is more neutral than FD is because of its platform. Don't act like platforms are something extra in Smash, because they're pretty inherent to Smash gameplay.

 

[Radical Larry]

To be fair, the most reasonable ruleset for this would be of the following, and this is my opinion, and you can tell me if you like or dislike it. The ruleset I would like to see is this:

• 2 Stocks for Normal Matches
• 4 Stocks for Grand Finals Matches
• 6 Minute Time
• One-on-One Local Battles used for less lag.
• Normal Match Sets are best 2 out of 3 Matches
  • Matches that end in a time out will result in a final tally of damage and review. The person with the most stock, or in the case of having the same stock, the person with the least amount of damage, wins.
  • Due to the new edge-hogging physics, as well as the increased use in tether recovery, the amount of time total for edge-hogging will be a maximum of 3 minutes. Anything surpassing such will result in a loss for the round.
  • Turning off the 3DS system while a match set is going on will not only result in disqualification from the match, but also a permanent disqualification from the entire tournament itself for the person who enacted it.
  • Hitting the Home Button on the 3DS system while a match set is playing will result in a match loss for the person who enacted it.
• Grand Finals Match Sets are also best 3 out of 5 Matches
• Use of Custom Movesets is indeed Tournament Legal
• Use of Certain Equipment is Up to the T.O.
• Mii, despite being a character in the roster, is Banned from usage
• No Items.
• Final Destination, Battlefield, Arena Ferox, Prism Tower, Yoshi's Island and all Omega Stages are all Tournament Legal for the following reasons:
  • Final Destination and Battlefield are regulation standard stages.
  • Arena Ferox has no hazards, and plays similarly to Pokemon Stadiums 1 and 2.
  • Prism Tower has no true hazards, and also has times where it will allow your opponent to be KO'd from bottom.
  • Yoshi's Island, while having the platforms on the left and right, is still a basis stage to be used.
  • Omega Stages are all Final Destination-like.
• Boxing Ring, Gaur Plains and Melee: Jungle Japes are Counterpick for the following reasons:
  • Boxing Ring, while not providing any single lower blast line, does have little hazards, the only one being the lights at the top, though it's rare for someone to use it to their advantage.
  • Gaur Plains is just small enough to be a Counterpick and not Banned. It also has absolutely no hazards and can be played around any area.
  • Jungle Japes is a counterpick due to recovery hindrances with its rapids, though it supports a lower blast line as well.
• Any Stage that has not been listed above as either Legal or Counterpick are indeed Banned due to having hazards, helpful stage hazards or no lower blast lines.

So yes, this is what I honestly think the tournament ruleset should be, and whether or not people will support it, that's up to them. Thank you for reading, and if you have something you want to add or change, hey, I don't mind.

 

[SirIanAsh]

3 stocks 5 mins.

 

[Blade Knight]

3 Stocks, 6-8 minutes.
Best 2/3 or 3/5 at small venues.
Finals Best 3/5 at all venues.
Local Matches
Stage list determined by TO but there should be at least 4 generally agreed upon neutrals allowed for use at all times and in all tournaments.
Equipment banned, custom moves banned unless specifically made clear beforehand that custom moves are allowed.

Even then I feel Custom move tournaments should be side events or played alongside standardized, no customization tournaments when possible.

 

[chipndip]

Equipment is most certainly not allowed, and the way of stopping players from using it is that T.O.s can check, and experienced players will be able to tell.


No, there are characters that do worse with the absence of platforms, and there are characters that do better with the absence of platforms. Ganondorf does poorly on FD because it limits his movement options, because he doesn't have platforms. I know that's a Melee thing, but it just shows a point -- that platforms enhance movement options for characters that aren't as fast while at the same time still being beneficial to characters that are fast. Fast characters will still be good on FD in Smash 4, and slow characters will still be bad on FD.
A neutral stage is where -- ideally -- neither character has a distinct advantage. FD is not that. The most neutral stages are Battlefield and Smashville, and the only reason Smashville is more neutral than FD is because of its platform. Don't act like platforms are something extra in Smash, because they're pretty inherent to Smash gameplay.

No, no, no...you're looking at this from the wrong vantage point:

In the Brawl stage builder (follow me the whole way through on this), what do you need to have to have the stage actually count as a stage to save and play on? Not a flimsy fall-through platform, but a few of those foundation platforms you don't fall through, so you can spawn and start the match. That's it. That's all it takes for any stage to be a stage. With that said, fall-through platforms found in other stages are EXTRAS added to them, and thus with that logic, their absence isn't to anyone's advantage/disadvantage in a match-up, but their presence is because they aren't necessary for a stage to be a stage.

The only requirement to be a "stage" in Smash games literally is the base foundation you spawn on. Everything else is extra, and THAT isn't "neutral". Not in the sense of match-ups. In the sense of being vanilla as possible so one can't say it's due to X being there that Y occurred.

 

[lordvaati]

2 Stock, 5 min, all custom moves(gotta check eqipment though, but one of the equipments causes L-Canceling????),

Stage list is kinda being worked on for me, but obvious stuff like N's castle isn't allowed.

2/3, 3/5 finals.

 

[Radical Larry]

2 Stock, 5 min, all custom moves(gotta check eqipment though, but one of the equipments causes L-Canceling????),

Stage list is kinda being worked on for me, but obvious stuff like N's castle isn't allowed.

2/3, 3/5 finals.

Well, I honestly think that if there is equipment that causes L-Cancelling, it should be allowed, with some other equipment being allowed for certain characters. Custom Moves, however, I think should definitely be a viable tactic, since they are rather balanced.

Having 2 stocks is rather pitiful for a game like this. Due to the fact we can't act out of hitstun, or Momentum Cancel to be precise, sided by the fact that there are attacks that will KO fast despite vectoring, then I find it unnecessary to make matches so short.

For the stages, first off, it's known as the Unova Pokemon League, and second, it should be a Counterpick. If anyone wants to know my full opinions, just read my post well above. You can't miss it.

 

[DJCrinkleCut]

No, no, no...you're looking at this from the wrong vantage point:

In the Brawl stage builder (follow me the whole way through on this), what do you need to have to have the stage actually count as a stage to save and play on? Not a flimsy fall-through platform, but a few of those foundation platforms you don't fall through, so you can spawn and start the match. That's it. That's all it takes for any stage to be a stage. With that said, fall-through platforms found in other stages are EXTRAS added to them, and thus with that logic, their absence isn't to anyone's advantage/disadvantage in a match-up, but their presence is because they aren't necessary for a stage to be a stage.

The only requirement to be a "stage" in Smash games literally is the base foundation you spawn on. Everything else is extra, and THAT isn't "neutral". Not in the sense of match-ups. In the sense of being vanilla as possible so one can't say it's due to X being there that Y occurred.

You are overthinking this way too much, and you're still ignoring that there are characters that do well on FD and there are characters that don't do well on FD -- that is a fact, and no bull**** about the stage builder changes that.
To say that characters like Marth and Captain Falcon don't have an advantage on FD is ludicrous, and the same with Mac in the new game.
Then there are characters like Peach and Puff, who have bad ground games, and have a disadvantage on FD.
You can't ignore matchups, otherwise everything is just conjecture, and it's a fact that it's easier for some characters than others to do well on FD. Therefore, FD isn't a neutral stage.

 

[Malkasaur]

To be fair, the most reasonable ruleset for this would be of the following, and this is my opinion, and you can tell me if you like or dislike it. The ruleset I would like to see is this:

• 4 Stocks
• 6 Minute Time
• One-on-One Local Battles used for less lag.
• Match Sets are best 3 out of 5 Matches
  • Matches that end in a time out will result in a final tally of damage and review. The person with the most stock, or in the case of having the same stock, the person with the least amount of damage, wins.
  • Due to the new edge-hogging physics, as well as the increased use in tether recovery, the amount of time total for edge-hogging will be a maximum of 3 minutes. Anything surpassing such will result in a loss for the round.
  • Turning off the 3DS system while a match set is going on will not only result in disqualification from the match, but also a permanent disqualification from the entire tournament itself for the person who enacted it.
  • Hitting the Home Button on the 3DS system while a match set is playing will result in a match loss for the person who enacted it.
• Grand Finals Match Sets are also best 3 out of 5 Matches

• Use of Custom Movesets is indeed Tournament Legal

• Use of Certain Equipment is Tournament Counterpick

• Mii, despite being a character in the roster, is Banned from usage

• No Items, bar Smash Balls.
  • This is due to the fact that Smash Balls come out very rarely now, especially on Low Item Setting, as well as the Final Smashes being considerably weaker than Brawl's Final Smashes, save for Marth and Lucina's Final Smashes.

• Final Destination, Battlefield, Arena Ferox, Prism Tower, Yoshi's Island and all Omega Stages are all Tournament Legal for the following reasons:
  • Final Destination and Battlefield are regulation standard stages.
  • Arena Ferox has no hazards, and plays similarly to Pokemon Stadiums 1 and 2.
  • Prism Tower has no true hazards, and also has times where it will allow your opponent to be KO'd from bottom.
  • Yoshi's Island, while having the platforms on the left and right, is still a basis stage to be used.
  • Omega Stages are all Final Destination-like.

• Gerudo Valley, Pac Maze, Unova Pokemon League, Boxing Ring and Melee: Jungle Japes are Counterpick for the following reasons:
  • Gerudo Valley, Pac Maze and Unova Pokemon League, while having hazards, do all have lower blast lines and the hazards themselves are all predictable.
  • Boxing Ring, while not providing any single lower blast line, does have little hazards, the only one being the lights at the top, though it's rare for someone to use it to their advantage.
  • Jungle Japes is a counterpick due to recovery hindrances with its rapids, though it supports a lower blast line as well.

• Any Stage that has not been listed above as either Legal or Counterpick are indeed Banned due to having hazards, helpful stage hazards or no lower blast lines.

So yes, this is what I honestly think the tournament ruleset should be, and whether or not people will support it, that's up to them. Thank you for reading, and if you have something you want to add or change, hey, I don't mind.

I'm at a loss for words. This is the most ******** ruleset I've ever seen.
First of all, you're suggesting Final Smashes. Do I have to explain why that's a stupid idea? Some of the Final Smashes *cough* Zero Suit Samus *cough* are incredibly overpowered.
Second, you want 4 stock 6 minute matches, with Bo5 sets. NO. NO. There's a reason most people are considering 2-3 stock matches. It's really hard to kill. Bo5 sets for ever set? The length of the matches is a problem in Bo3 sets, and you're suggesting Bo5?
Third, your choices for stages are just plain stupid. The neutrals are fine, some may need to be counter picks but otherwise those are fine. But your ideas for counterpicks are horrible. Gerudo Valley and Boxing Ring both have walkoffs. Pac Maze and Unova Pokemon League have stupid hazards.
I can't tell if you're trolling, or just incredibly stupid.

 

[Radical Larry]

I'm at a loss for words. This is the most ******** ruleset I've ever seen.
First of all, you're suggesting Final Smashes. Do I have to explain why that's a stupid idea? Some of the Final Smashes *cough* Zero Suit Samus *cough* are incredibly overpowered.
Second, you want 4 stock 6 minute matches, with Bo5 sets. NO. NO. There's a reason most people are considering 2-3 stock matches. It's really hard to kill. Bo5 sets for ever set? The length of the matches is a problem in Bo3 sets, and you're suggesting Bo5?
Third, your choices for stages are just plain stupid. The neutrals are fine, some may need to be counter picks but otherwise those are fine. But your ideas for counterpicks are horrible. Gerudo Valley and Boxing Ring both have walkoffs. Pac Maze and Unova Pokemon League have stupid hazards.
I can't tell if you're trolling, or just incredibly stupid.

First off, let me tell you that calling someone ******** for their opinion shows immaturity in a person. And secondly, I am open to changes on my selection to get an accurate representation for the rule set, so please, refrain from name calling. It is absolutely rude.

Let me explain reasoning behind all of this; first of all, not all Final Smashes are completely overpowered. Sure, some like Marth, Lucina and Zero Suit Samus' may be considered overpowered, but those are the only three truly overpowered Final Smashes, which can garner KOs quickly. Others like Bowser Jr.'s, Dark Pit's, Zelda's, etc. are not as powerful as you even think.

Secondly, it's actually not that hard to KO a character off a stage like Battlefield. Yes, I'm aware of the larger blast lines, but let's be honest that with the new physics and knockback of attacks, as well as the upper blast line having a KO Blast, I think it's still quick to KO opponents. Yes, there's also Vectoring, but even if it does substantial amounts of help to your character, it doesn't help as much as Brawl's DI > Momentum Cancelling. Though honestly, I don't have a tough time even KO'ing opponents, and can defeat them fast.

As for the Best of 5 sets, sure, you may think that Bo5 isn't fast, but that's just it; it's more accurate than a Bo3 and it would provide for more strategies to emerge and for people to learn about their opponents and how they work. Sure, you could say Bo3 is faster, but Bo5 is efficient. Though again...

Okay, I see with the counterpicks what you meant. I was imagining in my head (just now) on how they'd work out and fail without being Omega forms. Though honestly, no stage can truly be a counterpick because most of them have walk-offs or hazards.

 

[Blue Warrior]

No, no, no...you're looking at this from the wrong vantage point:

In the Brawl stage builder (follow me the whole way through on this), what do you need to have to have the stage actually count as a stage to save and play on? Not a flimsy fall-through platform, but a few of those foundation platforms you don't fall through, so you can spawn and start the match. That's it. That's all it takes for any stage to be a stage. With that said, fall-through platforms found in other stages are EXTRAS added to them, and thus with that logic, their absence isn't to anyone's advantage/disadvantage in a match-up, but their presence is because they aren't necessary for a stage to be a stage.

The only requirement to be a "stage" in Smash games literally is the base foundation you spawn on. Everything else is extra, and THAT isn't "neutral". Not in the sense of match-ups. In the sense of being vanilla as possible so one can't say it's due to X being there that Y occurred.

No, you're looking at this from the wrong vantage point. What makes a neutral stage a neutral stage for competitive play is that it offers the most balanced matchups for as many characters as possible. The technical specifications for "what makes a stage a stage" matters absolutely naught, and you're distorting the terminology because you don't understand why the term was created in Melee's haydays. This isn't about gameplay features, it's about game balance. Battlefield is objectively more balanced than Final Destination, which makes it objectively a better neutral stage.

 

[menotyou135]

Neutral means it provides the most neutral matchups. Not that it is the most blank.

Rainbow cruise/pokefloats was used over Brinstar for a while despite brinstar being closer to a normal stage because Rainbow/pokefloats didn't provide as crazy of disadvantages in matchups.

Half the reason certain stages started getting banned is because Fox and Sheik made them deemed broken in the early metagame.

 

[DJCrinkleCut]

Do you mean Rainbow Cruise? =P

 

[menotyou135]

Do you mean Rainbow Cruise? =P

Ya. Thanks

 

[Umaro]

Final Destination and the Omega stages should be considered the same stage in terms of picks, otherwise it would be unfair to characters who do worse without platforms.

 

[DJCrinkleCut]

Then there are way too many FD stages.
I think considering that they are essentially all the same, they should be all banned with one ban or strike. There's no reason for there to be more than one FD.

 

[Umaro]

That's just what I said, sorry if It wasn't clear.

 

[menotyou135]

For FD. Do they all have the same blast zones and don't some of them have different under stage properties (like walls?).

If so, I feel we should pick the two most unique from each other FDs and make them separate maps due to the lack of neutrals atm.

Like maybe: FD with large blast zones and smashville style under stage and FD with small blast zone and Yoshi island style under stage.

 

[DJCrinkleCut]

I think that blast-zone wise they're all the same, it's just the understage.

 

[THT Shadow]

2stocks 6 min sounds like an amazing idea specially for tourneys since they always run till very late this could speed up the process

 

[BigShad]

Honestly, I feel as though the ruleset should change depending on how long or short the matches tend to take. We must remember we have yet to fully explore everything and use it.

For now, however, I feel as though 2-stock, best of 5 is the current best option.

Custom moves are something I'm sure will change over time, but my opinion is that custom moves should be allowed, however, we need some good, unbiased balance testers testing potentially OP moves and at the same time we need a definition of what makes a move OP.

Gear, however, should be banned unless proven to help balance. Not only because it looks broken, but also because I recall gear being randomly generated, so I fear that it will become a huge grindfest.

Items should obviously be off as well, but that's a given

 

[DirtyPete]

for the "omega form" stages, its seems there are about 3 archetypes of omega forms (though some seem to think that the length of certain omega forms are longer than others). the first two are the vertical side types (some of these extend past the bottom of the screen, while others are floating islands), and the third have the slanted inward sides. there are variations of these, though. wilys castle and the game and watch stage,for instance; wilys castle has a jagged edge variation of the vertical side , and the game and watch stage has a sort of blocky inverted pyramid for a stage (im not sure if these variations have a significant effect on recovery yet, but they are at least aesthetically different, which could mess with you if you arent too familiar with the stage i suppose) . its absurd to say that all the final destination stages are the same, and i think this is something that should be considered (not that i think that the variations should be banned; rather, i hope people utilize the differences).

concerning the equipment and custom moves, nintendo/gamestop is having a tournament that allows equipment and custom movesets (scroll down to national tournament) : http://www.zeldainformer.com/news/n...r-national-super-smash-bros.-for#.VCYfBfldVAI

personally, i think custom moves should be allowed

regarding time and stock... 3 stock 7 , best of either 2 or three should be fine up until quarter or semifinals, and then it could be whatever time/ stock deemed appropriate, best of 5 ... i think? I think the game is still VERY new, so limiting the growth of the game with strict rulesets could potentially harm the tournament scene before it has a chance to properly develop, and before we really see what exactly is the best way to organize tournaments for smash 4. I think the early stages are the best for experimenting and seeing what works best.

 

[JuanTendo]

IMO 2 stocks and 5 minutes or 3 stocks and 7 minutes would be ideal and both of em should be bo3 until quarter finals then make it a bo5. i can see why you think 3 stock matches are a bad idea. With the experience i have with the game so far. I've been able to gimp 15 seconds into a match with real follow ups on characters with bad recovery and other times 2 minutes don't even get you a stock. its a tough to decide so early into the game but if i had to choose i would go for the 2 stocks 5 minutes bo3 until quarters then bo5 all the way to the finals. i think that in the long run the game could benefit for having shorter matches. spectator wise.

 

[MarioMariox2]

64 - 5 Stock, Melee - 4 Stock, Brawl - 3 Stock, so the natural conclusion is Sm4sh - 2 Stock.

In all seriousness though, I'd go for 2 stock, 5 minutes, like in For Glory.

 

[DirtyPete]

sure, 2 stock is shorter to watch, but its not entirely fair for the competitors

 

[Vermanubis]

I think 2 stock, 5-min is ideal. I've played a good bit, and I feel that 2 stocks gives me plenty of time to exercise my strategy, adapt and so forth.

As for custom moves, things would be a lot easier if they weren't so difficult to unlock. I'd be down for custom moves, insofar as they were integrated into the CP system. That is, I dunno, pick your moveset at the start, then CP a new moveset.

To be honest, having seen how vital viewership is to our livelihood (we didn't exist in a meaningful way until EVO), I don't think we're in a position to be kvetching about whether or not 2 stocks is too short. Smash 4 has its problems (vectoring, ahem), and if we don't compromise a little bit, we'll see a swift demise. As a Brawl player myself, I can't even watch Brawl videos or streams because they're too laboriously slow.

Also, if our primary issues are things like "not enough time to make a comeback, not enough time to adapt/strategize," then let's not forget that Street Fighter players have monumental minute and a half at maximum to do just that.