SSB 3DS - What should the ruleset be?

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

After reading this entire thread, I came to the conclusion that time is a problem.
However, instead of simply saying "2 stocks is too short" or "3 stocks is too long"; I propose that for the sake of efficiency and compatibility with a future wii u ruleset, we have 2 stock - 5 minutes in the earlier part of the tournament, and 3 stock - 7 minutes around quarterfinals onwards, with grand finals having a extra set. (depends on the tournament, if the early matches are bo3, then the GF should be bo5.)

Regarding Custom Moves; Nintendo already messed up with For Glory. Palutena is crying. Some characters have whole playstyle changes with one move difference, and it's not fair to leave something that most people expected just because of tradition and unpredictability. Only four moves can be changed, if you got that surprised, then your opponent played a solid mind-game and he should be respected for that.

With that said, a bit of control might be desirable, but at first, we should let the metagame sort itself out and find out whether or not the moves are balanced.

Equipment, Items and stages with ridiculous hazards (Hello, Yellow Devil) are ban fodder. I won't give a list or anything since I haven't seen all of the stages in action yet.

 

[Suli Hyuga]

snip

Say what you want about this guy but he gets it. I pretty much only play fighting games out of all the genres out there and for the sake of matchup analysis, a neutral stage is a must. FD is the most neutral stage there is. There are no outside factors, it's just you and your opponent on a piece of flat land. If a character with weak ground game struggles against a character with a good one, that's the matchup and the matchup only. Smash is super complex, that's obvious, that's why we need a neutral stage for the sake of matchup analysis. There will never be a 'fair match' in Smash or any fighter, that's why tier lists exists, to look at matchups and rank the characters from best to worst. Name one other stage that has no outside factors the same way FD does. There isn't any. If there is no neutral stage, then tiers don't matter because outside factors would be a must in matchups and you wouldnt know which characters are better than others without testing them out in every single stage where the tables can turn all the time.
If you seriously don't want to regard it as a neutral stage, then label it something else. The fact that it's being called a neutral stage doesn't matter, the fact that it has no outside factors does.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Actually, matchups can't be analyzed only on FD. Smash is the most unorthodox fighting game in the world.
Most "Neutral" and "Counter-Pick" stages aren't a plain platform with no hazards. Therefore, a matchup can't be analyzed on a single stage. The optimal analysis analyze the character's tools against the other character's tools and analyze the matchup at least in FD AND Battlefield.
Platforms are as important as flat stages in a tournament tier-list. Now with For Glory, we can and should have 2 different Tier Lists so that this kind of discussion stop happening so much.
But we're going way off-topic here, just sayin'.

 

[chipndip]

Actually, matchups can't be analyzed only on FD. Smash is the most unorthodox fighting game in the world.
Most "Neutral" and "Counter-Pick" stages aren't a plain platform with no hazards. Therefore, a matchup can't be analyzed on a single stage. The optimal analysis analyze the character's tools against the other character's tools and analyze the matchup at least in FD AND Battlefield.
Platforms are as important as flat stages in a tournament tier-list. Now with For Glory, we can and should have 2 different Tier Lists so that this kind of discussion stop happening so much.
But we're going way off-topic here, just sayin'.

1) Just because Smash is unorthodox, doesn't mean it can't be compared to anything else on the planet. The Pokemon community does the exact same thing: act like the game's so special and different that it just can't be compared to any other game ever under any context. That's an invalid notion.

2) A plain stage with no platforms is neutral because there's nothing ADDED to the stage for anyone's benefit, which is a part of "neutrality". I never had this much trouble discussing definitions from the dictionary and their application to video games...ever.

You guys said "Some guys need platforms to make the match 5:5", right? That means that the actual match-up is actually not 5:5, and you need a neutral stage to play into that natural character advantage/disadvantage. Picking something to even out or further imbalance the match-up isn't "neutral". It's just counter-picking.

3) Why consider FD over Battlefield as the neutral stage of the game, even though there's platforms in every stage but FD?

a) Seeing how there's an FD mode of every stage, it's blatantly obvious what it's supposed to be.

b) Even without a, remember that all that's required for a stage in Smash to be a stage is solid ground to spawn on. Everything else is extra, including platforms.

 

[biddum]

3 stock 8 minutes no items, final destination

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

1) Just because Smash is unorthodox, doesn't mean it can't be compared to anything else on the planet. The Pokemon community does the exact same thing: act like the game's so special and different that it just can't be compared to any other game ever under any context. That's an invalid notion.

2) A plain stage with no platforms is neutral because there's nothing ADDED to the stage for anyone's benefit, which is a part of "neutrality". I never had this much trouble discussing definitions from the dictionary and their application to video games...ever.

You guys said "Some guys need platforms to make the match 5:5", right? That means that the actual match-up is actually not 5:5, and you need a neutral stage to play into that natural character advantage/disadvantage. Picking something to even out or further imbalance the match-up isn't "neutral". It's just counter-picking.

3) Why consider FD over Battlefield as the neutral stage of the game, even though there's platforms in every stage but FD?

a) Seeing how there's an FD mode of every stage, it's blatantly obvious what it's supposed to be.

b) Even without a, remember that all that's required for a stage in Smash to be a stage is solid ground to spawn on. Everything else is extra, including platforms.

So basically, what you're suggesting is that all tournaments follow For Glory style and only play on omega variants of stages?
We can do better than this.

And just to wrap up this discussion, the concept of neutral don't exactly follow the same rules in smash because the game was designed to use platforms. Otherwise we wouldn't even have a neutral stage for Smash 64.
And honestly, I'd like to see you compare Competitive Pokémon to other games. Really killed your point.
If you still disagree with me, take it to PM's or even better, start your own thread to discuss about this. It should help to standardize Tier List makings. Let's stop filling the thread with discussions irrelevant to the actual point of this thread, which is 3ds tournament rules.


I still vote for 2 stocks, 5 minutes in early matches and 3 stocks, 7 minutes for quarter finals and onwards.
Best of 3 for all matches and best of 5 for Grand Finals.
The late matches deserve to be longer to build up hype for the finals and no one actually wants to see the same tournament last an entire day on streams.
Custom Moves are allowed unless we find something incredibly broken. No items, equipment or Hazard filled stages.
I won't give Stage Lists since I haven't seen them all.


The advantage of this ruleset is that it can be used for the Wii U version when it comes out.

 

[Yikarur]

I'd go with 3 Stocks 8 Minutes.
2 Stocks 6 Minutes is fine too for pool matches etc. but I really prefer 3 Stocks.

 

[aethermaster]

After seeing matches on twitch, and seeing how this Vectoring thing might turn out, I would go for 2 stocks 5 or 6 minutes since I've been seeing those matches almost running out of time. Can you imagine how it'll be once people get better at the game?

Also the whole 2 stocks thing reminds me of Killer Instinct or Injustice where you have two bars of health except smash has no catchup option once you're down a stock.

 

[Suli Hyuga]

3 stock 8 minutes no items, final destination

This would only be good for match analysis.
For tournaments, 3 stock and 6 minutes seems ideal. Bo3, no items and hazards. If there are a large amount of participants then we can have 2 stocks, 5 minutes for pools and Bo3. Grand Finals will be 3 stock, 6 minutes, Bo5

 

[smashmachine]

The whole "brawl was 3 stocks and this game is slightly faster" argument is terrible, yeah let's make the exact same mistake Brawl did because tradition!

 

[chipndip]

I think it's possible to have 3 stocks for semis and what-not, but just 2 stock + 5 minutes until then. People love Smash, and it'll be easier to fit larger events with shorter rounds.

 

[menotyou135]

The whole "brawl was 3 stocks and this game is slightly faster" argument is terrible, yeah let's make the exact same mistake Brawl did because tradition!

That argument is also terrible: It isn't the exact same mistake because the pace of the game is faster. If the pace of the game were the same speed as brawl, then it would be the exact same mistake.

What you should have said is "let's make a similar mistake to Brawl."

Also, there is no tradition about it. Nobody who wants 3 stocks gives a flying **** about tradition. They just hate matches where comebacks are impossible which is what happens in 2 stock matches. 2 stocks is not enough time to show who is really the better player if both players are of similar skill. With 2 stocks, an accidental SD or a bull**** gimp of some sort results in a reflection of a 50% game change. A small mistake means you've lost 50% of your life.

While you could say that it's the players fault for that, the fact is that you are increasing the chance of a match, and therefore a set to be decided by an outlier in someone play. Why do you think we run Bo5 for the grande finals rather than saying Bo3? It is to remove as much of a chance of one bad game deciding a match as possible.

Now if games are taking too long, then 2 stocks is fine, but we REALLY need to show that games are actually taking too long before we jump to bull**** conclusions and negatively impact the consistency of this game. Right now, the data shows that 3 stock matches take about the same amount of time as melee 4 stock matches based off real world tournament data.

Because of this, the current conclusion people should be drawing is that 3 stocks takes the same amount of time as melee 4 stock based of current data rather than "It looks slow so we should radically change the game to 2 stocks because I have a gut feeling or something."

Now you should be saying "But the game is in it's infancy and we shouldn't be drawing conclusions at this point based off of one example," to which I reply "That's my ****ing point you ****." Let the metagame actually evolve before you call it's pace broken and too slow.

 

[smashmachine]

That argument is also terrible: It isn't the exact same mistake because the pace of the game is faster. If the pace of the game were the same speed as brawl, then it would be the exact same mistake.

What you should have said is "let's make a similar mistake to Brawl."

Also, there is no tradition about it. Nobody who wants 3 stocks gives a flying **** about tradition. They just hate matches where comebacks are impossible which is what happens in 2 stock matches. 2 stocks is not enough time to show who is really the better player if both players are of similar skill. With 2 stocks, an accidental SD or a bull**** gimp of some sort results in a reflection of a 50% game change. A small mistake means you've lost 50% of your life.

While you could say that it's the players fault for that, the fact is that you are increasing the chance of a match, and therefore a set to be decided by an outlier in someone play. Why do you think we run Bo5 for the grande finals rather than saying Bo3? It is to remove as much of a chance of one bad game deciding a match as possible.

Now if games are taking too long, then 2 stocks is fine, but we REALLY need to show that games are actually taking too long before we jump to bull**** conclusions and negatively impact the consistency of this game. Right now, the data shows that 3 stock matches take about the same amount of time as melee 4 stock matches based off real world tournament data.

Because of this, the current conclusion people should be drawing is that 3 stocks takes the same amount of time as melee 4 stock based of current data rather than "It looks slow so we should radically change the game to 2 stocks because I have a gut feeling or something."

Now you should be saying "But the game is in it's infancy and we shouldn't be drawing conclusions at this point based off of one example," to which I reply "That's my ****ing point you ****." Let the metagame actually evolve before you call it's pace broken and too slow.

1. Smash 4 three stocks is actually slightly longer, but more importantly:
2. 4 stock Melee is too long anyway

 

[Suli Hyuga]

2. 4 stock Melee is too long anyway

4 stock Melee is too long

too long

long

The fastest Smash Bros game with one extra stock than Brawl, arguably the slowest Smash Bros game, is too long. Did I get that right?

 

[menotyou135]

4 stock Melee is too long anyway

What? 15 minute max matches are too long (usually less than 10)?

You do realize that other competitive video games are much longer and yet TOs manage to smoothly organize them right? Halo is on average 10 minutes per game and it is at least a Bo3 (usually Bo5). Starcraft/LoL games can take over an hour and are Bo3. Quake takes 10 minutes per game.

Fighting games in general are some of the fastest played games in esports and smash is no exception to that. Even if every game went to time, the individual sets are still shorter than the average games of some other esports.

I get that we want tournaments to run quickly and smoothly, but melee runs plenty smoothly as long as the TO isn't trying to run a 60 person bracket on 3 TVs.

You honestly think 4 stock melee is too long? Are you high?

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

So basically it all boils down to the speed of the game.
Both 2 Stocks, 5 Minutes and 3 Stocks, 7 Minutes sound reasonable, but we don't know which one is optimal yet.
Can some people who already have the game do a small tournament and stream or record it so we have actual data to know how fast the game currently is?
I'm talking about 8 persons doing a quick tournament with 2 Stocks, 5 Minutes and then 3 Stocks, 7 Minutes.
The one that takes the most reasonable (Not the fastest, the most enjoyable) amount of time becomes the standard, which is the big question now.

That and custom moves. Does anyone here oppose custom moves?

 

[menotyou135]

So basically it all boils down to the speed of the game.
Both 2 Stocks, 5 Minutes and 3 Stocks, 7 Minutes sound reasonable, but we don't know which one is optimal yet.
Can some people who already have the game do a small tournament and stream or record it so we have actual data to know how fast the game currently is?
I'm talking about 8 persons doing a quick tournament with 2 Stocks, 5 Minutes and then 3 Stocks, 7 Minutes.
The one that takes the most reasonable (Not the fastest, the most enjoyable) amount of time becomes the standard, which is the big question now.

That and custom moves. Does anyone here oppose custom moves?

Some people oppose custom moves. Me personally? I think it is too early to call whether they should be banned or not. They could lead to characters who aren't so good being better, and the discovery of new ATs possibly. At the same time they could make some characters OP or make it where the entire cast has the PM problem where recoveries are way too good. Right now, if I were to guess where the best course of action were to go, some group of smashers determine which custom moves are bad for competitive play and should be banned. Hypothetically, we could better balance the whole game through custom moves in some capacity by forcing the high tiers to use the worst Customs they have and giving the low tiers the best Customs they have but we will have to wait and see.

 

[Suli Hyuga]

FGC tournaments are infamous for going into over time :/ I think it's a fighting game curse.
As for custom moves in tournaments, they're either gonna turn out really well or really horrible. I don't see them as being regarded as 'okay', just really good and really bad. Reason being is because of how players organise their custom moves and how there may be alot of arguments between players and TOs regarding custom moves during matches.

 

[chipndip]

FGC tournaments are infamous for going into over time :/ I think it's a fighting game curse.
As for custom moves in tournaments, they're either gonna turn out really well or really horrible. I don't see them as being regarded as 'okay', just really good and really bad. Reason being is because of how players organise their custom moves and how there may be alot of arguments between players and TOs regarding custom moves during matches.

I really appreciate that there's someone on these boards that has experience with the FGC and other fighting games besides me. It gives me someone I can actually turn to to type things that make sense.

And yes, the FGC has major issues with not starting on time or not ending on time. One time they ruined my Pokemon stream because of it.

Moving away from that...2 stock + 5 min actually has a nice feel to it. I didn't get a single time out the entire time I was playing in that format, and I had a few comebacks.

However, I think the main issue for people is that an entire match, not just a round, can be decided in only 2 stocks, since Smash doesn't use rounds/match rules like SF or KOF. Definitely puts the pressure on. As individual rounds in a match, 2 stocks has a GREAT feel to it, but if it's gonna be the WHOLE match in that one fight...that's a crap ton to risk. 3 stocks + 7 min may be preferable if that's the case, but if we go by rounds, 2 stocks + 5 min is easily ideal. Either way, testing both and seeing what people are comfortable with will be a big help.

All imo.

 

[menotyou135]

I really appreciate that there's someone on these boards that has experience with the FGC and other fighting games besides me. It gives me someone I can actually turn to to type things that make sense.

Fun fact, I have played tournaments in: Tekken 5, Tekken 6, Tekken Tag 2, Street fighter 4, Halo 1, Halo 2, Halo 3, Halo Reach Starcraft 2 WOL, Quake Live, and Skullgirls and you completely disagree with me.

You aren't the only person in the entire smash community who's competitive game experience exceeds just smash. I guarantee at least 25% of the people here have competed or at least played a fair amount of other competitive games at an esport level.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I really appreciate that there's someone on these boards that has experience with the FGC and other fighting games besides me. It gives me someone I can actually turn to to type things that make sense.

And yes, the FGC has major issues with not starting on time or not ending on time. One time they ruined my Pokemon stream because of it.

Moving away from that...2 stock + 5 min actually has a nice feel to it. I didn't get a single time out the entire time I was playing in that format, and I had a few comebacks.

However, I think the main issue for people is that an entire match, not just a round, can be decided in only 2 stocks, since Smash doesn't use rounds/match rules like SF or KOF. Definitely puts the pressure on. As individual rounds in a match, 2 stocks has a GREAT feel to it, but if it's gonna be the WHOLE match in that one fight...that's a crap ton to risk. 3 stocks + 7 min may be preferable if that's the case, but if we go by rounds, 2 stocks + 5 min is easily ideal. Either way, testing both and seeing what people are comfortable with will be a big help.

All imo.

That's the catch. Are we having multiple rounds or not? That's why I suggested to have a small scale tournament recorded with both Bo3 2 stocks, 5 minutes and 3 stocks, 7 minutes. That way we would have actual data to know which time system is best.

And most of the times the FGC winds up messing with time it's because apparently everyone can calculate frame advantage on block, but not how many hours the longest-case scenario of the tournament would take. Bad planning overall. I guess.

 

[SmashChu]

Time wise, 2 stock, 5 minutes would be the best. Matches will move quicker and you'll get enough time to gauge your opponent. Plus, it mirrors other fighting games with 2 rounds.

 

[menotyou135]

Guys, if you all think games take too long, here is a thought. Turn damage to 1.1 from 1.0. That should hypothetically make matches 10%ish faster.

 

[Utena]

why are 2 stock matches even a point for discussion.... that's ridiculous.
the edge mechanics are less forgiving than brawl and an SD or early gimp more or less translates to a guaranteed loss.

also lmao at the comment before me, I remember when people wanted to turn damage to 1.1% for brawl

tbh 3 stock matches with a best of 3 format makes the most sense, with a tbd time limit. Characters should be limited to their default movesets until we have more than a rough estimate of tiers, at which point certain custom movesets could become standardized in order to balance the roster.

 

[chipndip]

why are 2 stock matches even a point for discussion.... that's ridiculous.
the edge mechanics are less forgiving than brawl and an SD or early gimp more or less translates to a guaranteed loss.

also lmao at the comment before me, I remember when people wanted to turn damage to 1.1% for brawl

Because when playing them in FG mode, it fits like a glove.

It all really hinges on if we're doing this in bo3 sets or bo1. Bo1 would probably need 3 stocks, admittedly, and bo3 sets are obviously 2/5 minutes.

 

[Suli Hyuga]

Because when playing them in FG mode, it fits like a glove.

It all really hinges on if we're doing this in bo3 sets or bo1. Bo1 would probably need 3 stocks, admittedly, and bo3 sets are obviously 2/5 minutes.

Why would a tournament ever do Bo1???

 

[chipndip]

Why would a tournament ever do Bo1???

So then...there's no issue with 2 stock/5 minutes.

 

[menotyou135]

So when I got the game, after practicing solo for about an hour, I measured my average match length for 20 games straight (win % was 45 so it wasn't because I was exceptionally bad or good). The final was 2:09. We really don't want to watch any matches do we? Bo5 sets over in as short as 7 minutes during the average 3-0? 2 stocks is way to ****ing short people. This game is not that ****ing slow. I played all 20 games in an hour. Imagine all this hype of an event going to the grande finals and it ends in 7 ****ing minutes. That isn't satisfying for the players or the spectators. And that's assuming all the games go the average length.

Eventhubs was 2:38. I encourage others to post their results doing the same experiment. For those interested, I played Falcon, Lucina, Kirby, and Shulk.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Again I ask. Can someone please record some real footage?
Maybe I missed some day 1 tournaments, but most of what I've seen are either For Glory matches (Which do wind up kinda short sometimes but work well enough in a Bo3) and LOL Nintendo FFA's.
How long does a 3 stock match usually takes?

 

[chipndip]

Playing against campy players can get REALLY hairy, though. I just had a long set against twins that TOTALLY wrecked me, but one of the two used almost exclusively long-ranged play. Timer wasn't on, but those matches wore on like hell. Should have recorded the time or something. >_>

If it's 2 minutes, just make it a bo3 and voila, problem solved. The timer will work out the kinks for campier play-styles. That is, unless er'body gets campy...>_>

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I think I came up with a potential ruleset

GAMEPLAY SETTINGS
No items (duh!)
2 stock
5 minutes
8 minutes in doubles
Best of 3 matches, Best of 5 for finals
Custom specials are okay, but customizing a character's stats is forbidden.
Pausing is forbidden. If left on, accidental pausing mid match forfeits a stock.

DOUBLES
8 minutes instead of 5
Friendly Fire is ON in doubles
Sharing stocks is authorized

TIME OUT
If time runs outs, the tie is determined by most stocks, and then if still tied, by percentage.
If percentage is tied, a 1 stock, 3 minute match is played.

STARTER STAGES
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Prism Tower

COUNTER STAGES
Arena Ferox
Jungle Japes
Reset Bomb Forest
Tomodachi Life (doubles only)
All Omega (FD) forms

MATCH PROCEDURES

1.Players select their characters. (No Blind Picks since the other player(s) can see everyone's character in the Training Room.)
2.Players play Rock-Paper-Scissors. In doubles, only one player represnets the team. Winner gets to strike a stage first.
3.Players take turns removing stages from the Neutral Stages list above based upon the results of the previous rule. The first player/team to strike removes one(1) stage from the list, the second player/team removes one(1) and the first player/team then chooses from the remaining two(2) stages.
4.The players play the first match of the set.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5.Winning player/team of the preceding match bans one stage from the full list of stages, both STARTERS and COUNTERS. Does not apply to Best of 5 sets. (Final Destination and all Omega forms are considered as one stage, due to their identical layout)
6.The Losing player/team of the preceding match picks a stage for the next match. Cannot choose the stage banned in the previous step, nor a stage they've already won on during this set, unless agreed by both players/teams.
7.The winning player/team of the preceding match may choose to change characters.
8.The losing player/team of the preceding match may choose to change characters.
9.The next match is played
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10.Repeat Steps 5 through 9 for all subsequent matches until the set is complete.


If there's something you want to add/remove/change, I will take your suggestions in consideration.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I think I came up with a potential ruleset

GAMEPLAY SETTINGS
No items (duh!)
2 stock
5 minutes
8 minutes in doubles
Best of 3 matches, Best of 5 for finals
Custom specials are okay, but customizing a character's stats is forbidden.
Pausing is forbidden. If left on, accidental pausing mid match forfeits a stock.

DOUBLES
8 minutes instead of 5
Friendly Fire is ON in doubles
Sharing stocks is authorized

TIME OUT
If time runs outs, the tie is determined by most stocks, and then if still tied, by percentage.
If percentage is tied, a 1 stock, 3 minute match is played.

STARTER STAGES
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Jungle Japes

COUNTER STAGES
Arena Ferox
All Omega (FD) forms

MATCH PROCEDURES

1.Players select their characters. (No Blind Picks since the other player(s) can see everyone's character in the Training Room.)
2.Players play Rock-Paper-Scissors. In doubles, only one player represnets the team. Winner gets to strike a stage first.
3.Players take turns removing stages from the Neutral Stages list above based upon the results of the previous rule. The first player/team to strike removes one(1) stage from the list, the second player/team removes one(1) and the first player/team then chooses from the remaining two(2) stages.
4.The players play the first match of the set.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5.Winning player/team of the preceding match bans one stage from the full list of stages, both STARTERS and COUNTERS. Does not apply to Best of 5 sets. (Final Destination and all Omega forms are considered as one stage, due to their identical layout)
6.The Losing player/team of the preceding match picks a stage for the next match. Cannot choose the stage banned in the previous step, nor a stage they've already won on during this set, unless agreed by both players/teams.
7.The winning player/team of the preceding match may choose to change characters.
8.The losing player/team of the preceding match may choose to change characters.
9.The next match is played
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10.Repeat Steps 5 through 9 for all subsequent matches until the set is complete.


If there's something you want to add/remove/change, I will take your suggestions in consideration.

Too few stages. FD being Starter and Omega forms being counter-pick doesn't make sense, and Jungle Japes is ridiculously annoying. Unless you fall through the water there too.

 

[Torn_Smash]

STARTER STAGES
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Jungle Japes

COUNTER STAGES
Arena Ferox
All Omega (FD) forms

Few points with this:

1. Final Destination and Omega (FD) Forms should be inter-changeable since the differences are fairly negligible with the most major difference being if the stage extends to the bottom or not.

2. Jungle Japes is already banned in Melee/Brawl and the river is much worse in Smash 4, being impossible to escape for many characters if they are caught in it, so it's definitely not a starter stage and probably not even a counter-pick

3. Too few stages. I would recommend adding Reset Bomb Forest as a counter-pick, the creature in the second transformation is timed and moves slowly on the bottom part of the stage, and is non-intrusive to the fighters. There are no other hazards in the stage and the problematic platforms with pockets in the transformation are easily destructible (like 2 light hits). Another stage I would recommend adding would be Prism Tower, it does have a walk off in the beginning of the stage, but this only lasts for about 10 seconds or so and it would not be possible to camp or abuse this area.

So after this editing, it would look like this

STARTER STAGES
Battlefield
Final Destination (or Omega forms)
Yoshi's Island
Prism Tower

COUNTER-PICKS
Arena Ferox
Reset Bomb Forest

This would round out the stage list to 6, which I feel is a pretty acceptable number of stages, considering the lack of competitive stages on the 3DS

There has also been discussion about Tortimer Island, but the element of randomness is something that has no precedent in Smash so it's difficult to say whether or not it should be included in the stage list, even if we are desperate for more stages

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I just noticed that no one suggested more than 6 stages. The Stage selection is that bad in this game?

 

[menotyou135]

My ruleset would be this:
3 stock 7 minutes

Starter stages:
Battlefield
Omega Random
Yoshi's Island

Counterpicks:
Prism Tower
Arena Ferox
Rainbow road(?)
Tadagotchi life(?)
Reset bomb forest(?)
Japes(?)
Brinestar(?)

Alternativly, Prism tower and Arena Ferox can be Starters, but that is a bit iffy.

Starters are picked the same way as N64 with each player vetoing one stage. Final Destination is just random picked during omega form.

Prism tower and Arena ferox definitely should be CPs. The stages with question marks should be tested in tournament play to see if they are overly crappy, but have potential to work as CPs. They likely won't be used on conservative rulesets but more liberal rulesets early on should try them with the exception of maybe brinestar/japes since they were tried in previous smashes (though them not working in those games doesn't necessarily mean they won't work in this one). They all have off stage play, no permanent walk offs, or undodgeable hazards.

Custom moves legal, but stat customization is banned. Any player caught with modified stats is automatically evicted from the tournament.

 

[Torn_Smash]

I just noticed that no one suggested more than 6 stages. The Stage selection is that bad in this game?

Melee has 6 tournament legal stages, with 5 starters and 1 counter-pick for singles

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Too few stages. FD being Starter and Omega forms being counter-pick doesn't make sense, and Jungle Japes is ridiculously annoying. Unless you fall through the water there too.

I wanted to separate the Omega forms to reduce stage striking and make it less complicated on the forst round and Japes was an actual counter in Brawl, which is why I chose it in the list.




I've looked your suggestions and the ruleset will be updated in a few seconds......

EDIT: Ruleset updated!

 

[Torn_Smash]

Hey can we have a conversation about different Omega stages? While they are all the same in length and stage boundaries, there is one important difference between different Omega stages. There are two types of Omega stages, ones that extend to the bottom of the stage boundary, and those that do not.

Platform Style

Example: Magicant

Tower Style

Example: Living Room

This is actually a pretty significant difference in stages when it comes to recovering. I'll use Rosalina as an example actually.

If you use Launch Star on a Platform Style stage, you can mess up the angle a little and end going under the ledge and SD'ing, while if you do the same thing on a Tower Style stage, Rosalina will hug the side of the stage, making it much easier to get back on stages, giving Rosalina riskier options with harassing the opponent on the stage (such as shooting your Luma onto the stage to fight your opponent while you are recovering) since you know that you will safely get back on the stage. A lot of characters have their recovery options changed by this and I feel like it's something that's important to distinguish between and have a conversation about, since it seems like everyone is talking about Omega stages as if they are all the same, which is really not true.

Food for thought/discussion

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

That's the other reason I wanted to separate the Omega forms from the original FD!

 

[Torn_Smash]

That's the other reason I wanted to separate the Omega forms from the original FD!

Well I don't think that's as much of the problem since FD is just another Platform Style Omega stage in essence, the problem is more that there's variance within the "Omega form" category

What could be done is we pick one Omega stage to represent the Platform Style and one Omega stage to represent the Tower Style and just make it two different options.

So in the stage list it would look like

STARTER STAGES
Battlefield
Final Destination
Living Room (Omega Form)
Prism Tower
Yoshi's Island

etc etc