Squirtle Squad (General Disc.)

[QraQ]

I found a new use for Water Gun this weekend, actually. If they don't perfectly sweetspot the ledge, it pushes them right back down, which on some characters could mean a stock right then and there, but it could still lead into a kill offstage just grabbing the ledge or punishing their next recovery attempt

And I mean the weak Water Gun, so you can just stand semi-close to the edge and shoot it over and over again, it also lessens their options to get back onstage, and you can be far enough away that their getup attack won't reach you. Unless you're facing Bowser...

And it can still lead to grabs or setups onstage. I think Water Gun is great, actually. I don't have much of a use for the charged version besides making landing on the stage safer in some situations, but the quick one is actually quite useful.

You can Water Gun shield pressure most shields into a grab or pivot grab, ezaaaayyyyyyyyyy.

 

[SAX]

I don't see why there are so many complaints lol. Squirtle is a perfectly viable character now. Just picked him up about 2 weeks ago and have been doing a lot of greta things.

Also, I'm not sure if this is mentioned anywhere, but Squitle has a drop zone on any fast faller (mainly spacies and falcon)

Fthrow > FF Fair on the ledge. Hence why it's a dropzone. Works at like any percent. Should be an insta-death at any percent with proper edgeguarding. It's not that hard with Bair and Bubble lol.

Definitely adding Squirtle to my main character usage. Now I'm up to 3 ^_^ Snake, MK and squirtle!

 

[Burnsy]

Zwarm, it sounds like you and I do all the same things, lol. Dsmash has been one of my most used moves post-2.6 updated, and I also just recently started using water gun in the way you described.
Edit:

Fthrow > FF Fair on the ledge. Hence why it's a dropzone. Works at like any percent. Should be an insta-death at any percent with proper edgeguarding. It's not that hard with Bair and Bubble lol.

I've also done this a few times. What about DI? Theory smashing a bit here, but combined with the slide to the ledge you get from a shellshift jc grab from anywhere on stage, this could mean squirtle gaining a huge advantage in the matchup.

 

[Zwarm]

Then I like your Squirtle, Burnsy!

At lower percents, DI does nothing as far as I've seen, unless every player I've played doesn't know how to DI, which seems like a bit of a stretch to me. You can also run off double jump fair a lot of characters out of fthrow offstage as well

 

[bubbaking]

On the topic of WG, a charged WG can be useful while descending to create a little more safe space between yourself and your opponent, not because it pushes the opponent away but because it rockets Squirt backwards. Also, I think an uncharged WG could cause an interesting reset on knockdown.

 

[Zwarm]

That's my favorite use for a charged WG!

Now that I think about it, I think I've forced a getup using uncharged WG once, but I could just be imagining it because it was just a one time thing that I can remember

 

[Bones0]

Squirtle's techchasing is already so gdlk that I don't see much use for a reset beyond his already great jab reset.

And that's coming from a guy that fiends over laser resets with Falco.

 

[Metà]

water gun reset would be 2 dope tho

 

[MrHazuki]

I won a tournament recently with pretty much only Squirtle's side-B.

 

[Burnsy]

I'd like to see footage of that, because I can't even picture it. I have to imagine you must have been playing very inexperienced players then, because there is no way the move is *that* good on its own.

 

[MrHazuki]

Nothing was recorded, but I'm not lying. Here's the result thread. I'd like to say that both Dev and King Funk are recognized players, and I took them both (still very even).
http://smashboards.com/threads/king...n-results-and-shoutouts.340409/#post-15840753

His side-B has so much better super armor now compared to version 2.5 and lower. You still have to be smart when approaching and make sure to shield pressure if they shield and combo if it hits. It combos into fair (which now actually can be a valid killing combo), and all aerials at lower percent. If you know your turtle, you can use it to edgeguard as well, but I never do that in tourney. Also, it really helps changing the tempo when recovering, making it harder for the opponent to read you.
Seriously, this move is dope.

 

[Bones0]

You said pretty much only side-B, which I don't think should include comboing out of it with all of Squirtle's aerials and KOing with fair... Sounds like you just withdraw spammed and they're bad. Idk the exact armor stuff, but I'm pretty sure Sheik's ftilt was breaking me out of it, so I'd be surprised if any character doesn't have a quick tilt to hit withdraw approaches with out of neutral.

 

[MrHazuki]

I meant: "pretty much only side-B", which is what I wrote. I still used other moves though. It doesn't cover every option, but a lot more than what you give it credit for. Some tilts, but absolutely not all. Offensive super armor is a wild thing to have.

 

[Bones0]

Pretty much only means like, you used up-B to recover a few times or something. If you're consistently using moves after withdrawing onto their body and shield then that seems silly to say, but whatever. If you used it as much as you lead on, then your opponents are obviously just bad. Character's don't need all of their tilts to go through withdraw. They only need one in order to consistently stop it on reaction, and there's plenty of quick smashes that could be used even better (Fox usmash, Mario dsmash, etc).

 

[Burnsy]

Nothing was recorded, but I'm not lying. Here's the result thread. I'd like to say that both Dev and King Funk are recognized players, and I took them both (still very even).
http://smashboards.com/threads/king...n-results-and-shoutouts.340409/#post-15840753

His side-B has so much better super armor now compared to version 2.5 and lower. You still have to be smart when approaching and make sure to shield pressure if they shield and combo if it hits. It combos into fair (which now actually can be a valid killing combo), and all aerials at lower percent. If you know your turtle, you can use it to edgeguard as well, but I never do that in tourney. Also, it really helps changing the tempo when recovering, making it harder for the opponent to read you.
Seriously, this move is dope.

I don't argue that side-b isn't an excellent move that can link into big damage, but it isn't like it's a 2.5 Sanic spindash. You can't just approach with nothing but side-b and hope to keep winning unless your P:M scene is really free, sorry.

Also, it isn't super armor, it's knockback armor. You'll notice that the the armor is more effective at lower percents than higher percents.

 

[cmart]

FYI Squirtle's side B is light armor - which has a kb threshold of 80. That's the exact same threshold to put someone into tumble. So withdraw can armor through light attacks that would've just stunned (not tumbled) you.

I would hope most characters have a fast reactionary option that can tumble at some percent.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Side-b is a really powerful option in the neutral game. It goes through a lot of projectiles and decayed aerials (which is pretty sweet by the way, I love not getting stunned by Falco's weak d-air). If you use it to replace aerial approaches, it's kind of difficult to counter because typical defensive options (shield or dash dance) don't really work. You can also use it as a universal punisher; imagine you react to a tech, but wouldn't get there in time, and if you try to grab they might spotdodge. One pretty cool option is to shellshift away, but you could also just side-b as soon as you're close to them and risk very little.

Not saying that I think side-b is overpowered or centralizing; Squirtle has a lot of really good moves in this version (side-b, bubble, d-smash, u-smash, b-air). But it's foolish to downplay how useful it is.

 

[Burnsy]

Its also foolish to claim that it can legitimately win tournaments as your sole approach. I didn't downplay anything, I said it was amazing move and it DOES have plenty of approach applications. cmart's comment is basically straight facts, he never even said anything about whether those facts made the move bad or good.

 

[MrHazuki]

The thing is, you have to be smart when using it. Not every game is a Final Destination chess-"My opponent use attack A, I counter with attack B"-type of match. Naturally, I try to catch them off guard by sliding off platforms, using it as an aerial, OoS and when behind them, among other ways. Also, shorthopping while in the shell is an extremely good mixup, in case they try to sh above, or counter with e.g. a dsmash.

I'm not withdrawing my statements about my opponents being good players or almost only using side-B. I've looked at a few Squirtle matches on YT and nobody ever really uses it, which is extremely weird to me.

Sorry, but I wasn't sure about the armor nomencleture. I'll try to not mistake them again.

 

[Burnsy]

I'm not withdrawing my statements about my opponents being good players or almost only using side-B. I've looked at a few Squirtle matches on YT and nobody ever really uses it, which is extremely weird to me.

I use it plenty, but I don't over use side-b approach in my region, because I'll get bopped in the face. I've been playing squirtle against them for a couple months now and they know the match-up and roughly know which moves will knock me out of it by paying attention to my percent.

I just think you are much better off if you use a variety of approaches so you can avoid getting read. If you want to focus almost your entire neutral game around how you use and mix-up a single move, be my guest. I don't think that is good advice for other players, though, and I definitely don't think its good advice for Smash in general, no matter how good you think a move is.

 

[MrHazuki]

My only advice would be to try it more. Work with it.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Its also foolish to claim that it can legitimately win tournaments as your sole approach. I didn't downplay anything, I said it was amazing move and it DOES have plenty of approach applications. cmart's comment is basically straight facts, he never even said anything about whether those facts made the move bad or good.

Except that he did legitimately win a tournament using side-b as a sole approach. How can something be foolish if it's true? Even if you think his win wasn't "legitimate" because the players weren't great, all he's done is report his own experiences, and there's nothing foolish about that either. My comment was not in response to cmart btw.

I just think you are much better off if you use a variety of approaches so you can avoid getting read. If you want to focus almost your entire neutral game around how you use and mix-up a single move, be my guest. I don't think that is good advice for other players, though, and I definitely don't think its good advice for Smash in general, no matter how good you think a move is.

I think the last statement is patently false, if you look at Sonic's performance in 2.5. In general, you should use whatever move works, and if it happens to be the same move in every situation, then you should use that move in every situation. Rarely will this be the case, and again I don't believe withdraw is anywhere near as centralizing as 2.5 Sonic's spindash. Also, I'm not trying to attack your opinion (I mostly agree with you), this is more just food for thought; don't discredit someone's claims unless you give them proper testing and consideration. Like I mentioned in my last post, there are many situations in which withdraw is clearly the safest, most advantageous option.

 

[Burnsy]

Fair enough i guess

 

[MrHazuki]

Still, I bring pretty outrageous statements with almost no proof. Can't blame you.

 

[Oro?!]

I see you beat King Funk's MK but you can MK Nair and break the armor on withdraw starting at like 10% lol. Also Squirtle's abysmal tech roll makes MK getting a single dthrow usually death.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Guys, aerial Forward-B is like a dive kick. The move is generally safe on shield, it's B-Reversable and you can always turn around or pre-emptively Aqua Jet if you don't like what you see.

It's far and away his best move, and I could totally see a playstyle predicated on that being the best way to play him. It's a great mix-up to his otherwise-best-played-campy moveset.

 

[Kyu Puff]

What would it be like if aqua jet and the ability to jump during withdraw (and possibly the "pop out of shell on hit" animation) were replaced by the ability to jump cancel withdraw? I'd imagine it would be fairly centralizing if not broken, because he'd be able to move around freely with light armor, threatening to set up an easy combo or tech chase without actually having to commit to anything. But it would also be really fun, and add some more variety to his approach.

 

[Burnsy]

That'd be silly, save that for turbo mode

 

[cmart]

What would it be like if aqua jet and the ability to jump during withdraw (and possibly the "pop out of shell on hit" animation) were replaced by the ability to jump cancel withdraw? I'd imagine it would be fairly centralizing if not broken, because he'd be able to move around freely with light armor, threatening to set up an easy combo or tech chase without actually having to commit to anything. But it would also be really fun, and add some more variety to his approach.

Way back when (prerelease days) we had a Squirtle build for the longest time that allowed him to turn out of withdraw. I don't mean the way it's coded now, I mean it transitioned into his actual turnrun. This allowed him to jump/rar/shellshift/JC whatever out of withdraw whenever he wanted. It was a lot of fun with a cool tech-ceiling and allowed all sorts of tricks. It was also super broken and made the character fairly linear and boring. You literally never had any reason to not side B as your primary form of movement at all times and I can't stress enough how stale and lame it was.

So in short, we tried something very similar and after giving it more than its fair shake, determined it was dumb and had to go.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Sounds about right. Did you ever experiment with limiting the time window for the cancel (i.e. he can only jump cancel/turnrun before/after the xth frame of the withdraw animation)? That way your options would be more limited than running and it wouldn't strictly be the best way to move around.

 

[Zwarm]

Why so dead Squritle boards?

It was really nice meeting you at TBH3, Burnsy and cmart

 

[standardtoaster]

i'm glad we at least got to play a game or two, mike. i'm sad i couldn't needle camp you because sideb armored through it lmao

 

[Zwarm]

Side B is too good, I just love going through falcos lasers and sheik needles with it :3

 

[SpiderMad]

Guys, aerial Forward-B is like a dive kick. The move is generally safe on shield, it's B-Reversable and you can always turn around or pre-emptively Aqua Jet if you don't like what you see.

It's far and away his best move, and I could totally see a playstyle predicated on that being the best way to play him. It's a great mix-up to his otherwise-best-played-campy moveset.

Didn't you tell Rat a while ago not to use it lol?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't know if I did or not. Couldn't tell you.

 

[Oro?!]

SideB is definitely going to go along the lines of gimmick->situational use for projectiles in the long run imo.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Disagree. It's just a dumb move that will only get better as everything else is refined.

 

[Bones0]

I don't think it will end up being a gimmick vs. projectiles. It will just be kinda read-based. So like, if I am all up in a Falco's grill and think he will RSHL away from me to create some space, I could withdraw through that laser and wreck him. That is drastically different than how most people want to view the game where they think simplistically: "Withdraw if the opponent lasers" which obviously is way too broad of a scope to answer with withdraw every time. Some projectile situations will be good for withdraw, some will not. And then ofc, you will always have withdraw gimmicks that will work on people who aren't ready for them, but there are still tons of gimmicks to this day in Melee that work all the time so long as the opponent isn't aware of them. I think most withdraw gimmicks are beaten simply by the opponent knowing what they can use to interrupt withdraw. As soon as someone realizes their character can use a specific tilt on reaction to beat withdraw, a lot of gimmicks get thrown out the door and withdraw will have to be used more situationally.

 

[Oro?!]

I meant more or less that it will be gimmicky, but it's niche intended usage would be like your Falco example. It just didn't come across like that. It will also have that same usage if you read certain types of other moves. I just meant that using the move as a crutch and crucial part of Squirtle's gameplay will lead to many people's downfall. It's not that great of an all purpose move.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Sure, if you try to use withdraw as an all-purpose approach, it sucks. It's still his best move. For techchasing, overshooting an approach, safely covering most get up and out of shield options, starting combos, etc.

Has anyone experimented with u-throw and f-throw chain grabs? Are there any guaranteed regrabs on any characters (and if so, what percentages)?

Also, I see a lot of potential in his d-tilt to poke through the bottom of shields. It would be sweet if his aerials did more shield damage/slightly more shield stun to facilitate this. As of now, I find myself relying on withdraw in many situations to avoid getting punished oos because Squirtle's aerial pressure options are pretty bad.