Squad Strike in Tournaments?

[Shoopdawooper]

I'm going to make a bold statement, but it's one I'm prepared to back up: 3 vs 3 Squad Strike should become the tournament standard. It offers several benefits over single-character play! Allow me to go through them.

Inherent Protection Against Stagnant/Divisive Characters: Let's say a character becomes as disruptive as Bayonetta has. Is she as bad if she's only 1/3rd of the fight? Probably not. It might still be a problem, but nowhere near as bad as it became in Smash 4.

Increased Character Variety: Characters like Little Mac and Ness don't see as much use because they're huge gambles if they're your only character. You don't want to run into Rosalina as Ness, so Ness... while he hasn't vanished outright, he has certainly become 'discouraged.' Same deal with Mac. However, if you run into a bad matchup for them in Squad Strike... that's okay. You still have your other two characters, so it's not a complete shut-out!

Player Identity Improves: A player can be come known for a signature team. Perhaps someone rises up to become famous for their specific combination of, say, "Inkling plus Zelda plus Samus" or so on. This is even more distinct than being an expert with a single character.

Promotes Character Exploration: You have to learn 3 characters, and ideally you want them to be ones with contrasting abilities. The roster for this game is absolutely massive, and moving to this format will encourage us to dig through them more quickly. We'll grow as players.

Allows Theme Teams: This is an admittedly small benefit, but it's going to create some fun opportunities. Some people enjoy showing up at a tournament to express themselves. This will let them do so. They can show up with teams like Mario + Peach + Bowser ("Super Mario RPG party") or Chrom + Female Robin + Lucina ("Royal Family from Fire Emblem Awakening"). Or people who are really into one play-style can do that too; let someone run Ganondorf + K Rool + Bowser for Team Big Bodies. This isn't a HUGE deal, I grant, but it will delight some people.

I fullheartedly agree! One more point I would like to add (that does assume some of how the mode would actually work) is that it can lead to new tactic and strategic choices in counterpicking. You could make a multiple character gameplan, adjust parts of your squad or their order on what your opponents character strengths are. I feel like players who understand Smash and their opponents playstyle on this level can use this mode for an advantage. Which would lead to more upsets, more mindgames, more interesting arcs within a set, or even a tournament. So yeah. Good stuff. I want it at tournaments.

 

[SirPainsalot]

Bumping with this:

I think it could legit be used.

 

[Untouch]

If this is true I think it should start off as a side tournament, but on the level of 2v2.
I personally think that it should and could work as a main event but it'd be hard to convince people, if squad strike is better and attracts more competitors and viewers (which I think it would), there may be push to upgrade it.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Okay, so it IS that thing I want. Jeeze, I wish I could just see the thing in action.

 

[Untouch]

I don't think starting off with Squad Strike as the standard tourney mode then downgrading it if it doesn't work will cause any problems.
With customs the transition was painless because the core gameplay changes dramatically, but it doesn't really do that in this case.

 

[Luigifan18]

I don't think starting off with Squad Strike as the standard tourney mode then downgrading it if it doesn't work will cause any problems.
With customs the transition was painless because the core gameplay changes dramatically, but it doesn't really do that in this case.

Your post is really confusing...

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I think he meant 'painful.'

In any case, I'd really like to see Squad Strike start off as a standard format for tournaments. It offers tons of advantages, and will help us make better use of this roughly 70 character (at current count) roster!

 

[Luigifan18]

Me, I'm personally hoping to use this mode for some awesome good vs. evil clashes.

 

[xDrippyx]

I would love it if instead of the characters you pick being in a set order, once you lose a stock you can quickly choose which character you want to play next via a little menu that pops up sort of like the stock counter that appears when stocks are lost.
This would add to the meta of Squad Strike, allowing you to counterpick the character that just took your stock and add more importance to the characters you choose.
It would be even cooler if this mode is available for online play and when online, you don't see the characters your opponent picks until they switch to them!

 

[AquaTech]

I am 100% in favor of the 3v3 squad strike being tournament standard. It would be so amazing, add so much variety, counterpicking, training your secondaries and back-ups, I want it so bad.

 

[Galgatha]

Another one here who agrees with making it the standard. It would add alot to the meta of Smash, and has the chance to prevent the annoying Bayo vs Bayo dittos.

We would need to start getting some TOs on our side though, or start our own Squad Strike tournaments to see how they progress. Some new rules (obviously) would need to be in place such as no picking the same character over and over for each stock, but this could work.

Start at 3v3, 6-8 time limit, and move from there.

There seriously is alot of potential for this, and I am excited to see it in action. I also hope and pray that this mode gets an online version. We could seriously use it!

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

For character uniqueness it's a natural standard not to allow the same character multiple times, but here's a question. Do you allow a character and its echo when it's considered how similar most echo fighters are to the base characters? Personally I think the answer is "no"; the best rule is probably saying that all three characters on your team must have different "numbers" assigned to them (so you can't use a character and its echo or character duplicates, but you could use multiple different Mii Fighter variations). I suppose this would still allow for some silly teams like Mario/Dr. Mario/Luigi, Link/Young Link/Toon Link, and Marth/Chrom/Ike, but it's reasonably likely that these similar but actually different characters will be balance independent enough to expose significant downside to just stacking archetypes in this way.

Another issue is how you handle character counterpicking. The current and likely future standard on counterpicks is loser picks stage, winner picks character, loser picks character. How does this extend to 3v3? Does the winner pick his whole squad and then the loser, or do they go one by one? I'd favor the latter here to minimize counterpicking advantage which means it would be:

Loser picks stage, winner picks first character, loser picks first character, winner picks second character...

I do think overall Squad Strike could make for a really good tournament standard. It forces a simply higher degree of versatility, and it actually further smooths out a lot of local imbalance which will probably really increase character viability. A lot of characters in all the Smash games are "mostly good but with a really terrible match-up or two that makes maining them really risky", but as a part of a squad, it's a lot more reasonable to focus on that character's upside with much less risk of losing everything when your opponent has the bad match-up. There's a similar situation with stages too; any stage will give a natural advantage to some characters over others, but the net advantage of any given stage in a 3v3 would be expected to be lower as any given stage will likely have divided benefits between the two opposing teams as long as both teams are reasonably well constructed.

 

[JazzaDawg]

I hope it's definitely going to be my preferred mode not just to play but also to watch.

 

[Galgatha]

For character uniqueness it's a natural standard not to allow the same character multiple times, but here's a question. Do you allow a character and its echo when it's considered how similar most echo fighters are to the base characters? Personally I think the answer is "no"; the best rule is probably saying that all three characters on your team must have different "numbers" assigned to them (so you can't use a character and its echo or character duplicates, but you could use multiple different Mii Fighter variations). I suppose this would still allow for some silly teams like Mario/Dr. Mario/Luigi, Link/Young Link/Toon Link, and Marth/Chrom/Ike, but it's reasonably likely that these similar but actually different characters will be balance independent enough to expose significant downside to just stacking archetypes in this way.

Another issue is how you handle character counterpicking. The current and likely future standard on counterpicks is loser picks stage, winner picks character, loser picks character. How does this extend to 3v3? Does the winner pick his whole squad and then the loser, or do they go one by one? I'd favor the latter here to minimize counterpicking advantage which means it would be:

Loser picks stage, winner picks first character, loser picks first character, winner picks second character...

I do think overall Squad Strike could make for a really good tournament standard. It forces a simply higher degree of versatility, and it actually further smooths out a lot of local imbalance which will probably really increase character viability. A lot of characters in all the Smash games are "mostly good but with a really terrible match-up or two that makes maining them really risky", but as a part of a squad, it's a lot more reasonable to focus on that character's upside with much less risk of losing everything when your opponent has the bad match-up. There's a similar situation with stages too; any stage will give a natural advantage to some characters over others, but the net advantage of any given stage in a 3v3 would be expected to be lower as any given stage will likely have divided benefits between the two opposing teams as long as both teams are reasonably well constructed.

Couldn't agree more tbh, and good note on the effects of Squad Strike when it comes to stage picking. That is a rather large thing that I forgot about.

 

[DJ3DS]

For character uniqueness it's a natural standard not to allow the same character multiple times, but here's a question. Do you allow a character and its echo when it's considered how similar most echo fighters are to the base characters? Personally I think the answer is "no"; the best rule is probably saying that all three characters on your team must have different "numbers" assigned to them (so you can't use a character and its echo or character duplicates, but you could use multiple different Mii Fighter variations). I suppose this would still allow for some silly teams like Mario/Dr. Mario/Luigi, Link/Young Link/Toon Link, and Marth/Chrom/Ike, but it's reasonably likely that these similar but actually different characters will be balance independent enough to expose significant downside to just stacking archetypes in this way.

Another issue is how you handle character counterpicking. The current and likely future standard on counterpicks is loser picks stage, winner picks character, loser picks character. How does this extend to 3v3? Does the winner pick his whole squad and then the loser, or do they go one by one? I'd favor the latter here to minimize counterpicking advantage which means it would be:

Loser picks stage, winner picks first character, loser picks first character, winner picks second character...

I do think overall Squad Strike could make for a really good tournament standard. It forces a simply higher degree of versatility, and it actually further smooths out a lot of local imbalance which will probably really increase character viability. A lot of characters in all the Smash games are "mostly good but with a really terrible match-up or two that makes maining them really risky", but as a part of a squad, it's a lot more reasonable to focus on that character's upside with much less risk of losing everything when your opponent has the bad match-up. There's a similar situation with stages too; any stage will give a natural advantage to some characters over others, but the net advantage of any given stage in a 3v3 would be expected to be lower as any given stage will likely have divided benefits between the two opposing teams as long as both teams are reasonably well constructed.

I agree with the method you suggested for counterpicking, though I think either would work in theory. In Smash 4, the logical extreme is that the loser is saddled with the prospect of facing their worst matchup for a full game. In Squad Strike, the winner of the previous game always has the opportunity to move to a potentially less terrible matchup by going a stock ahead.

The other question is whether the same character can be selected multiple times for a single squad - and if so, whether that would be implemented.

 

[Buzzwole]

I'd love to see it become the standard, but the smash community has proven to be so opposed to change over the years I doubt it'll happen.

 

[Untouch]

I agree with the method you suggested for counterpicking, though I think either would work in theory. In Smash 4, the logical extreme is that the loser is saddled with the prospect of facing their worst matchup for a full game. In Squad Strike, the winner of the previous game always has the opportunity to move to a potentially less terrible matchup by going a stock ahead.

The other question is whether the same character can be selected multiple times for a single squad - and if so, whether that would be implemented.

If we can pick the same character twice I see absolutely no reason why this shouldn't be standard as it basically fixes every problem people have with this mode being standard.

 

[DJ3DS]

If we can pick the same character twice I see absolutely no reason why this shouldn't be standard as it basically fixes every problem people have with this mode being standard.

I encountered some resistance to the suggestion when I discussed it with my local university club. They argue it would effectively reduce the game back to singles and would be pointless. I'm not confident I agree with it but feel the discussion doesn't hurt in any case.

 

[Untouch]

I encountered some resistance to the suggestion when I discussed it with my local university club. They argue it would effectively reduce the game back to singles and would be pointless. I'm not confident I agree with it but feel the discussion doesn't hurt in any case.

Even if it did revert it back to singles, wouldn't ignoring it also revert it back to singles? At least here there would be an option.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I encountered some resistance to the suggestion when I discussed it with my local university club. They argue it would effectively reduce the game back to singles and would be pointless.

...How? Doubles would still exist. This would just be a different format for 1 on 1 play. Your university club seems like they need to get Ds and Fs for critical reasoning. (I misunderstood. Post redacted.)

 

[DJ3DS]

...How? Doubles would still exist. This would just be a different format for 1 on 1 play. Your university club seems like they need to get Ds and Fs for critical reasoning.

No, you've misinterpreted me.

I am saying that the club has suggested that Squad Strike in said scenario would just eventually result in people picking their main/top tier for all three slots, in which case it would reduce to just standard singles and thereby be redundant.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I stand corrected. That is easily fixed by enforcing a "you must pick different characters in each slot and must use all your characters" rule, in any case.

 

[Luigifan18]

I stand corrected. That is easily fixed by enforcing a "you must pick different characters in each slot and must use all your characters" rule, in any case.

How would that help, if switching characters is done by losing stock?!?

 

[Pegasus Knight]

...Make them... switch characters... when they... lose a stock?

What am I missing here that makes this an unusual response to the problem? The way I'm seeing it, we just run things King of Fighters style; lose a character, you must play as another character on your team. Seems easy enough.

 

[DJ3DS]

I stand corrected. That is easily fixed by enforcing a "you must pick different characters in each slot and must use all your characters" rule, in any case.

Sure.

The question is whether or not you'd want to enforce it. Some would prefer forcing everyone to pick three distinct fighters whilst others would prefer the option to repeat them.

I pretty much side with U Untouch on the matter but in any case the possibility of repeat characters felt like something that merited discussion.

 

[Untouch]

I feel even if you could just pick the same character 3 times many top level games wouldn't have this, just having another character that your opponent needs to deal with is a huge advantage.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

I'd love to see it become the standard, but the smash community has proven to be so opposed to change over the years I doubt it'll happen.

This is how I feel, but I'll push for this to be the standard anyways, we'd get to see tons of characters.

Imagine 3 v 3 characters for the standard sets, and then 5 v 5 for the finals, gotta pull out them reserves!

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Imagine 3 v 3 characters for the standard sets, and then 5 v 5 for the finals, gotta pull out them reserves!

As much as I think this would be fun, I'm pretty sure the whole 'changing to 5v5 for finals' would be met with a LOT of resistance... and sometimes for good reason.

1: Time. This would cause those sets to take longer. Smash tournaments already tend to throw venue plans into disarray since they take a bit longer than other fighting games. Making the finals '5 stock' (in effect) would make this even worse. Only way I see this happening is if you're okay with Finals being best 2 out of 3 instead of 3 out of 5.

2: Players are already going "I don't want to learn THREE characters!", imagine the resistance to "That's FIVE characters, two of which I'll rarely use outside of finals!" This might be pushing just a bit further than people will tolerate.

 

[SmashBro99]

I'd love to see it become the standard, but the smash community has proven to be so opposed to change over the years I doubt it'll happen.

This a million times.

At least it has a good chance for side events and maybe some unique tournaments, unlike customs that were trashed very quickly.

Stage morphing would be nice to see too but they will never even give it a thought lol.

 

[Shoopdawooper]

I don't like all these assumptions about how " the community" reacts to certain features. Don't forget, we are the community.

Let's just stick to our own opinions about Squad strike. That also makes it easier to account for what the "community" wants, rather than what the community thinks the community wants. And, we'll see, even if it doesn't end up being used much in competitions, the mere fact that so many, in this thread at least, seem to be in favor of some representation of squad strike matches means that you'll likely be able to find plenty of people to play in the game mode.

 

[DarthEnderX]

When most people say "the Smash community" they mean, "the people that play Smash at EVO".

 

[DarthEnderX]

So now that Ultimate was officially announced for EVO, I was wondering if there was any chance of Squad Strike being the format at EVO, or is there just no way?

 

[LightKnight]

I think squad strike tournaments have been my favorite to watch so it should definitely continue as at least a side event. I also really like the recent one that near the top turned into 5v5 to further test peoples grit.
Wanted this mode for a very long time so its just great to have it!