Squad Strike in Tournaments?

[Kingshadow3]

Do you think there will be Tournaments utilizing Squad Strike? I mean a metagame based on a Team rather than a single character might be interesting. It's why games like Marvel Vs Capcom 2 and 3 get so much love. I know there are no characters assists like those games but still.

If you object to Squad Strike based Tournaments, give your reasons in your reply. I'm very curious to see your opinions on Squad Strike in the competitive scene.

 

[Pyra]

Not that I've ever really been a part of the competitive scene (I want to, with Ultimate), but I think it wouldn't hurt to run a Squad Strike based tournament and see how it goes.
I'd watch it.

 

[Galgatha]

I'm all for it, but it would probably have to be 3v3 instead of 5v5 due to time. But it would be pretty freaking cool to watch, that's for sure!

 

[Fire Emblemier]

I would be a fun secondary tourney to watch definitely. Like there would be singles, doubles, then squad strikes. I hope it kicks off. I remember early on in Smash 4 there was fun side tourneys for 8 player smash like 3v3s and 4v4s, while it didn't gain enough traction it sure was fun to watch when it was going on.

 

[Untouch]

I would be 100% up for this becoming the standard in 1v1. It would promote variety without making everything too complicated. A lot of the problem with customs (outside of how they needed to be unlocked) is that they weren't standard even in smash bros. This makes practice a lot harder and inconsistent. Squad Strike really doesn't have this problem.
I think I'm in the minority here though, I just don't want it to be relegated to another side event thing people forget about in a year.
Honestly the only counter I've seen regarding adopting this is people don't want to learn 3 characters. That isn't valid, if the game is as balanced as it should be you should have side characters.

I'd like to wait until more info is out, there's a lot we don't know about still.

 

[Kingshadow3]

I would be 100% up for this becoming the standard in 1v1. It would promote variety without making everything too complicated. A lot of the problem with customs (outside of how they needed to be unlocked) is that they weren't standard even in smash bros. This makes practice a lot harder and inconsistent. Squad Strike really doesn't have this problem.
I think I'm in the minority here though, I just don't want it to be relegated to another side event thing people forget about in a year.
Honestly the only counter I've seen regarding adopting this is people don't want to learn 3 characters. That isn't valid, if the game is as balanced as it should be you should have side characters.

I always see Squad Strike as a side tourney rather than the norm simular to doubles as not everyone wants to commit to 3 different characters. Also the metagame might be different than single character battles as players might make team that synergize well with each other.

 

[Keeshu]

I will be surprised if doesn't become a thing. It just makes everything more interesting. Just seeing more characters from a player does make each player more unique since it's a lot more unlikely to see the same 3 characters as opposed to seeing the same single character. Also character position for when they come out, and counterpicking characters will be a bit more complex.

It's not going to replace single character tournaments at all. Mastery of a single character vs mastery of a team can be quite different. Personally I prefer watching + playing Squad Strike style matches.

There's one big concern I have for squad strike. I'm worried that there's a chance for some reason it won't be available for online play. Which will make it a bit harder for people to want to watch/compete in the scene in the first place.

 

[Galgatha]

I always see Squad Strike as a side tourney rather than the norm simular to doubles as not everyone wants to commit to 3 different characters. Also the metagame might be different than single character battles as players might make team that synergize well with each other.

Do we know how Squad Strike will actually work?

Would it work the same way as the final battle in Smash Tour did where each stock was actually another fighter? So instead of say 3 stock match, 1 fighter, it was 3 stock match, 3 fighters and each fighter only had 1 stock.

Or would it work like say, Team Battle did in Tekken were you played 1 match with each fighter, and if that fighter won, they moved on to your opponents next fighter, and so on?

 

[Untouch]

Do we know how Squad Strike will actually work?

Would it work the same way as the final battle in Smash Tour did where each stock was actually another fighter? So instead of say 3 stock match, 1 fighter, it was 3 stock match, 3 fighters and each fighter only had 1 stock.

Or would it work like say, Team Battle did in Tekken were you played 1 match with each fighter, and if that fighter won, they moved on to your opponents next fighter, and so on?

The website makes it sound like it's one single battle like Smash Run.
The only thing I'm confused about is whether or not the same character can be picked twice or if you're forced to have 6 different characters. It never explicitly states otherwise. Like the direct doesn't have repeats on either team but that's likely just for demonstration purposes.

If we CAN pick the same character 3 times per team, I think this should 100% become standard. Even if it just turns into using the same character 3 times, the potential is there.

 

[Galgatha]

The website makes it sound like it's one single battle like Smash Run.
The only thing I'm confused about is whether or not the same character can be picked twice or if you're forced to have 6 different characters. It never explicitly states otherwise. Like the direct doesn't have repeats on either team but that's likely just for demonstration purposes.

If it's one single battle, I don't think it would change the meta that much because in essence it's still 1v1.

personally I think that you wont be able to stack characters like 2 marios and a bayo. I feel like, characters would be limited to 1 character per team build.

So, while say both players can pick link for their team, they can only pick link once. Make sense?

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I'm going to make a bold statement, but it's one I'm prepared to back up: 3 vs 3 Squad Strike should become the tournament standard. It offers several benefits over single-character play! Allow me to go through them.

Inherent Protection Against Stagnant/Divisive Characters: Let's say a character becomes as disruptive as Bayonetta has. Is she as bad if she's only 1/3rd of the fight? Probably not. It might still be a problem, but nowhere near as bad as it became in Smash 4.

Increased Character Variety: Characters like Little Mac and Ness don't see as much use because they're huge gambles if they're your only character. You don't want to run into Rosalina as Ness, so Ness... while he hasn't vanished outright, he has certainly become 'discouraged.' Same deal with Mac. However, if you run into a bad matchup for them in Squad Strike... that's okay. You still have your other two characters, so it's not a complete shut-out!

Player Identity Improves: A player can be come known for a signature team. Perhaps someone rises up to become famous for their specific combination of, say, "Inkling plus Zelda plus Samus" or so on. This is even more distinct than being an expert with a single character.

Promotes Character Exploration: You have to learn 3 characters, and ideally you want them to be ones with contrasting abilities. The roster for this game is absolutely massive, and moving to this format will encourage us to dig through them more quickly. We'll grow as players.

Allows Theme Teams: This is an admittedly small benefit, but it's going to create some fun opportunities. Some people enjoy showing up at a tournament to express themselves. This will let them do so. They can show up with teams like Mario + Peach + Bowser ("Super Mario RPG party") or Chrom + Female Robin + Lucina ("Royal Family from Fire Emblem Awakening"). Or people who are really into one play-style can do that too; let someone run Ganondorf + K Rool + Bowser for Team Big Bodies. This isn't a HUGE deal, I grant, but it will delight some people.

 

[lmntolp]

Pokemon trainer would be a blast to watch in 3v3 squad strike. Opponent tries to counterpick your lineup? Just switch pokemon after you take their stock. You could almost have a legit pokemon battle with PT and 2 other pokemon on your team.

I think there would be an interesting meta with regards to the order you pick your team too. You could put "carries" first and "anchors" last. As I understand it, something like this appears in the meta for other fighters too. Some characters do really well if you can keep them alive and use their unique mechanics, like little mac, PT, wario, and lucario, so you want them first for a potential snowball (although lucario also benefits from stock deficits, so he's weird). You can also pick characters who have really good neutral games and less stellar killing potential first because you always start the game even, not behind.

And for "anchors" you want characters who have good kill or survival potential, like ryu, in case you are multiple stocks behind.

 

[Iridium]

Perhaps 3v3 could work as a side event, and 5v5 could work for crew battles. Honestly, we need to see how much control we have over what we can do.

 

[DarthEnderX]

It's a good way to ensure no more Bayo vs. Bayo finals.

Allows Theme Teams: This is an admittedly small benefit, but it's going to create some fun opportunities. Some people enjoy showing up at a tournament to express themselves. This will let them do so. They can show up with teams like Mario + Peach + Bowser ("Super Mario RPG party") or Chrom + Female Robin + Lucina ("Royal Family from Fire Emblem Awakening"). Or people who are really into one play-style can do that too; let someone run Ganondorf + K Rool + Bowser for Team Big Bodies. This isn't a HUGE deal, I grant, but it will delight some people.

Mega Man, Pit, Simon. Team Captain N.

 

[CostLow]

I'm going to make a bold statement, but it's one I'm prepared to back up: 3 vs 3 Squad Strike should become the tournament standard. It offers several benefits over single-character play! Allow me to go through them.

Inherent Protection Against Stagnant/Divisive Characters: Let's say a character becomes as disruptive as Bayonetta has. Is she as bad if she's only 1/3rd of the fight? Probably not. It might still be a problem, but nowhere near as bad as it became in Smash 4.

Increased Character Variety: Characters like Little Mac and Ness don't see as much use because they're huge gambles if they're your only character. You don't want to run into Rosalina as Ness, so Ness... while he hasn't vanished outright, he has certainly become 'discouraged.' Same deal with Mac. However, if you run into a bad matchup for them in Squad Strike... that's okay. You still have your other two characters, so it's not a complete shut-out!

Player Identity Improves: A player can be come known for a signature team. Perhaps someone rises up to become famous for their specific combination of, say, "Inkling plus Zelda plus Samus" or so on. This is even more distinct than being an expert with a single character.

Promotes Character Exploration: You have to learn 3 characters, and ideally you want them to be ones with contrasting abilities. The roster for this game is absolutely massive, and moving to this format will encourage us to dig through them more quickly. We'll grow as players.

Allows Theme Teams: This is an admittedly small benefit, but it's going to create some fun opportunities. Some people enjoy showing up at a tournament to express themselves. This will let them do so. They can show up with teams like Mario + Peach + Bowser ("Super Mario RPG party") or Chrom + Female Robin + Lucina ("Royal Family from Fire Emblem Awakening"). Or people who are really into one play-style can do that too; let someone run Ganondorf + K Rool + Bowser for Team Big Bodies. This isn't a HUGE deal, I grant, but it will delight some people.

All the things you just said. I 100% agree. I was looking for something to add but I'm just not sure. Honestly, I've really enjoyed watching DBFZ matches lately and if Squad Strike is anything like that I would love it. Obviously it won't be that dynamic but what I really appreciate about it is that the pros master AT LEAST three fighters (because that's their main team) and often find themselves mastering one other team (likely only swapping out one or two fighters, but still increasing the list of utilized fighters) in the process. We will probably still see a certain team setup rise to the top but I don't this format would allow for one team to make its way to elite status the same as a single fighter format (MK in brawl or Bayo in Sm4sh).

 

[DarthEnderX]

I assume Squad Strike is going to be most comparable to King of Fighters.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I'm sure hoping it works similarly to KOF. Doesn't have to be identical, but so long as the general premise is there this will be a fantastic mode and would fix a lot of Smash's problems.

 

[DJ3DS]

I'm going to make a bold statement, but it's one I'm prepared to back up: 3 vs 3 Squad Strike should become the tournament standard. It offers several benefits over single-character play! Allow me to go through them.

Inherent Protection Against Stagnant/Divisive Characters: Let's say a character becomes as disruptive as Bayonetta has. Is she as bad if she's only 1/3rd of the fight? Probably not. It might still be a problem, but nowhere near as bad as it became in Smash 4.

Increased Character Variety: Characters like Little Mac and Ness don't see as much use because they're huge gambles if they're your only character. You don't want to run into Rosalina as Ness, so Ness... while he hasn't vanished outright, he has certainly become 'discouraged.' Same deal with Mac. However, if you run into a bad matchup for them in Squad Strike... that's okay. You still have your other two characters, so it's not a complete shut-out!

Player Identity Improves: A player can be come known for a signature team. Perhaps someone rises up to become famous for their specific combination of, say, "Inkling plus Zelda plus Samus" or so on. This is even more distinct than being an expert with a single character.

Promotes Character Exploration: You have to learn 3 characters, and ideally you want them to be ones with contrasting abilities. The roster for this game is absolutely massive, and moving to this format will encourage us to dig through them more quickly. We'll grow as players.

Allows Theme Teams: This is an admittedly small benefit, but it's going to create some fun opportunities. Some people enjoy showing up at a tournament to express themselves. This will let them do so. They can show up with teams like Mario + Peach + Bowser ("Super Mario RPG party") or Chrom + Female Robin + Lucina ("Royal Family from Fire Emblem Awakening"). Or people who are really into one play-style can do that too; let someone run Ganondorf + K Rool + Bowser for Team Big Bodies. This isn't a HUGE deal, I grant, but it will delight some people.

I also think 3v3 Squad Strike would be an improvement to the standard format and the above post details why excellently. My additions would be that it's an inherently more interesting format to spectate, one I would personally find more interesting to compete in (as it would require me to practice more than just my main) and one where, given the incredibly large number of combinations and permutations of teams, the likelihood of us seeing a perfect ditto is extremely unlikely in practice.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Aren't the odds somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 in 50,000 at the most generous, re: seeing a true ditto match in 3v3 teams? Someone ran the math, I forget what the outcome was but it was somewhere in that range.

 

[DJ3DS]

Aren't the odds somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 in 50,000 at the most generous, re: seeing a true ditto match in 3v3 teams? Someone ran the math, I forget what the outcome was but it was somewhere in that range.

No, it's actually substantially lower.

That's about the number of possible sets of 3 characters you can choose, but you then have 6 orderings of each set for around 300,000 combinations total.

With 75 characters the numbers are 67525 sets of 3, multiplied by 6 for 405,150 orders in total.

 

[Jamison]

I think it has some potential for a side event at tournies like Summit or smashcon. But as far as regular tournaments (even weekly locals) the focus is most likely going to be on 1v1's. So I don't see it being a regular thing anywhere but it would be a really good Friday night event at a major. Then doubles could finish off on Sat or Sun (instead of Fri where viewership is lower) which could help the doubles scene.

I also think there's some potential for it to be used in squad battles. I'm not entirely sure if you would have to hand off the controller (as opposed to two squads of 3 all plugging in) and there's no way you could use 5 controllers per squad (making 5v5's unlikely unless you used default controls or the same control scheme for 5 people) and people do play with different control settings. But instead of the traditional 4 or 5 person squad battles I could see a best-of-3 squad battle using strike mode to be really good. It would streamline crew battles making them run quickly (assuming people didn't all feel the need to plug in and warm-up on the same setup or if people were very particular about their controller etc.).

 

[DarthEnderX]

Aren't the odds somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 in 50,000 at the most generous, re: seeing a true ditto match in 3v3 teams?

That would be the odds if all the characters ended up being balanced here.

But lets be honest, if a handful of characters happened to end up being a tier above the rest like Bayo was in 4, those odds go down considerably as you end up with a MvC2 situation.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Don't make me post Scott Steiner's math lesson about odds.

 

[DJ3DS]

The mathematics here is not complicated. The number around 50,000 (I believe 57,155) comes from the number of sets of size 3 from the total number of characters (for 57,155, they've used 71 total). There is a simple formula for this and Google will compute it for you just by typing "71 choose 3" if you do not know it.

This number assumes you consider Bayo/Cloud/Sheik the same as Sheik/Bayo/Cloud and so on. If you consider them different, you need to multiply by the number of rearrangements of sets of size 3 (namely, 6).

Yes, this does assume every combination is equally likely, and yes, I know that in practice this will not be the case.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I'm a little bit concerned that the reason 4v4 isn't an option is because this mode ISN'T just "each stock is a different character" and instead it's a series of 3 or 5 matches where your character changes each match and the winner is just a 2-out-of-3/3-out-of-5 thing. That will be very disappointing if that's the case.

 

[Untouch]

Sad that this mode seems to be going ignored by the community, it's being written off with no debate or argument why it should be written off.

 

[CostLow]

The impression I get from the video is that each fighter fights exactly one other fighter and then the winner is the squad with more fight victories. I like this a little bit but would find it much more interesting if it was like a three stock fight with each stock being fought for by a new fighter.

 

[Untouch]

The impression I get from the video is that each fighter fights exactly one other fighter and then the winner is the squad with more fight victories. I like this a little bit but would find it much more interesting if it was like a three stock fight with each stock being fought for by a new fighter.

It feels to be like that screen with the characters matched up was only for deciding controllers. The direct was pretty vague.

 

[soviet prince]

Don't make me post Scott Steiner's math lesson about odds.

One, Dedede isn't dead. He got hit in the head.

Two, why would they make a story mode about death?

Never tell me the odds

 

[Iron Maw]

The mode felt very King of Fighters inspired so I would like to see it be given a go too.

 

[Maikou]

I think ultimately this all comes down to whether Squad Strike is quite what we think it is.

I'm a little bit concerned that the reason 4v4 isn't an option is because this mode ISN'T just "each stock is a different character" and instead it's a series of 3 or 5 matches where your character changes each match and the winner is just a 2-out-of-3/3-out-of-5 thing. That will be very disappointing if that's the case.

This right here is honestly the real question. We only really know that Squad Strike is an optional mode with a 3v3 and 5v5 option for team size. We don't know whether you change fighters each stock or if you change fighters each battle. A lot of us are thinking/hoping/assuming it will be like Project M's All-Star Stock mode, where you change fighters each stock, but we really don't know.

Ultimately the idea of this winding up the tournament norm hinges on Squad Strike changing fighters every stock, but that might not be the case. I'll admit though, I really hope it is changing fighters every stock, as that's got a lot of potential and is just really cool. Though I think I'll enjoy it regardless, as I love making themed teams anyway.

 

[Keeshu]

For easy reference I'm just going to quote the whole thing.
Link to the moment it gets talked about.
"We've added in Squad Strike.
It's a 5 on 5 or 3 on 3 elimination-style battle to decide the winner.
Each player will use 5 consecutive characters in one battle, but it might be fun for multiple players to take turns as well."

So it is only one battle, which is good because if it was multiple battles that would kind of defeat the purpose of the mode. Elimination style implies it keeps going until one team is completely eliminated. In order for all characters to be played in a single battle, it would have to swap characters per stock.

 

[Untouch]

This is more speculation. The fact that it explicitly states that there's one battle makes it sound like its less of a crew battle and more a KoF style thing, this is stated twice so I don't think it's a typo.
I don't know if it returns to the menu in the video when a character is defeated or not, or if that menu is for determining the order of the characters and assigning the controllers.
If I was to guess, it's the latter, the score really wouldn't make sense if it had to return as the score would exclusively be based on how many characters killed (something that would be visible on its own).
It's called "elimination style" which implies everyone is active at once until they're killed, and the site calls it a "multi-fighter battle".
The third screen doesn't even seem to be a part of the game itself (doesn't really share the same style), but if it is, it shows the battle starting with all 4 characters.
Having game footage would be real nice because it could quash speculation right away but we don't have that.

 

[CostLow]

For easy reference I'm just going to quote the whole thing.
Link to the moment it gets talked about.
"We've added in Squad Strike.
It's a 5 on 5 or 3 on 3 elimination-style battle to decide the winner.
Each player will use 5 consecutive characters in one battle, but it might be fun for multiple players to take turns as well."

So it is only one battle, which is good because if it was multiple battles that would kind of defeat the purpose of the mode. Elimination style implies it keeps going until one team is completely eliminated. In order for all characters to be played in a single battle, it would have to swap characters per stock.

I just rewatched that section a few times to try and make sure I wasn't missing anything and I feel pretty confident this will be exactly the type of fight I was hoping for. Thanks for pulling the quote from the video. That is very helpful. Now I'm super excited for the chance to try this out.

 

[Untouch]

"We can't have this, learning 3 characters is too much!"

 

[grizby2]

I was waiting for this mode to be a thing for so long!

I don't know how anyone can't play at least 3 characters. every character has pretty much the same commands to perform moves.

it's not like you're learning to play as Zwei from soulcalibur in 3 different ways, I mean come on ...dudes.

 

[Bayopuff]

I think it would be extremely fun as a side event! As a poster above me said, it would encourage practicing a variety of playstyles and learning a lot of matchups.

But... do I see it happening? Not at all, as I explained in another thread, most tournaments are extremely conservative, I don't think they're going to change their foundation just yet.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Unfortunately, Sakurai's description of Squad Strike in his recent famitsu article makes it sound like each fight between characters is a separate match, and you can choose to either play by "winner stays" rules, or a "most wins"rules, instead of just one battle where you get a different character for each stock.

Super disappointing...

 

[Untouch]

Unfortunately, Sakurai's description of Squad Strike in his recent famitsu article makes it sound like each fight between characters is a separate match, and you can choose to either play by "winner stays" rules, or a "most wins"rules, instead of just one battle where you get a different character for each stock.

Super disappointing...

https://nintendoeverything.com/sakurai-on-smash-bros-ultimate-newest-fighter-reveals-modes-and-more/
NintendoEverything's translation makes it sound like it's more like one battle, I guess we'll have to wait until we have footage.

 

[Shoopdawooper]

Can we get a Japanese speaker to look at the original article in Famitsu?

It's really annoying that they didn't just show gameplay of squadstrike in the direct, like they did for pretty much everything else. Would have cleared up all this confusion.

I am optimistic though, that squad strike can be played as the character per stock match we all want. It has been a clear request from a large portion of the fanbase for a while now, and so far, Sakurai and his team have shown to listen to the fanbase. Fingers crossed.


On topic: I fully agree that a squadstrike like we hope it to be would be a nearly complete improvement on the current tournament standard, and I would definitely want to see squad strike events. The only drawback I can see is that for some people, there is just 1 character for them, for whatever reason. And those people are less likely to compete in a squad strike event. Still, I think the benefits (mainly the increased variety for spectators) far outweighs the drawback.