Source Gaming: Alph Was Once A Full-Blown Clone!

[-crump-]

I think all four of them should have been their own characters, clones or not. Dark Pit is not Pit, Lucina is not Marth, Doctor Mario is... Well. And Alph is NOT Olimar.

I hate alternate costumes that turn one character into another.

 

[gyasim]

I'm not continuing to argue with as you are blatantly posting words in my mouth at this point and generally just rambling on with "you're wrong because I say so" comments.

But I will quote a post I made earlier today, since you seem to think I have it out for Sakurai (once again, you assuming you know how I feel, which is resulting in you trying to effectively interrogate me):



http://smashboards.com/threads/why-is-everyone-hating-on-sakurai.412012/

I will also link you to a Tumblr blog dedicated to appreciating Sakurai, that I was the very first follower of.

I wouldn't expect you to admit that you're wrong. No one does. At least you aren't mindlessly supporting your worthless argument and ignoring everyone else's now, instead just backing out. But that's okay, I didn't really want to continue anyway, it would've been pointless. Bye.

 

[Blue Sun Studios]

I think all four of them 'sshould have been their own characters, clones or not. Dark Pit is not Pit, Lucina is not Marth, Doctor Mario is... Well. And Alph is NOT Olimar.

I hate alternate costumes that turn one character into another.

Here's a little info on the characters. Dark Pit's primary weapon in-universe Kid Icarus Uprising is the Silver Bow, much like how Pit's is the Palutena Bow. Silver Bow V.S. Palutena Bow, the Silver Bow is weaker melee wise, its strongest charge shot is at point-blank range (and that's much stronger than the Palutena Bow's charge shot which is at maximum distance), its weakest charge shot is at maximum distance (and that's drastically weaker than the Palutena Bow's weakest charge shot which is at point-blank range), it has a higher firing rate and its projectiles travel further than the Palutena Bow, it has a higher turning curve, and the Palutena Bow's projectiles gain speed the further they travel. Dark Pit canonically uses five other weapons (whatever weapon Pit used when he first created Dark Pit, a Violet Palm, a Dark Pit Staff which he uses in SSB4, an EZ Cannon, and an Ogre Club).

Lucina's model and animations are actually reused for all Marths in Fire Emblem Awakening, and a good deal of them have her wielding Falchion one handed in a fencing-esque stance. The Lodestar class can even use rapiers and noble rapiers like the Great Lord class can. To make it fair between Lucina and King Marth, Lucina can promote into the Great Lord class (which also has access to lances and different skills) to give her stats on par with the Lodestar class, and the class's maximum stats are actually different than the Lodestar class (which is what King Marth is in Fire Emblem Awakening). To give specifics, the Lodestar class has slightly higher strength, skill, and defense, and the Great Lord class has slightly higher speed; strength can be translated into damage and launch power, skill could be translated into wind up and cooldown lag, speed can be translated into movement speed and jump height, and defense could be translated into weight. If I wanted to, I could've based their statistics off of the Grandmaster class's stats to sort out their own statistics since the Grandmaster class is the most average class in Awakening. And thanks to stat modifiers, Lucina's final maximum stats will turn out very different from King Marth's;
Character Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res
King Marth 45 27 45 42 45 43 39
Sully!Lucina 41 30 46 48 47 39 40
Sumia!Lucina 40 31 46 49 47 38 41
Maribelle!Lucina39 33 45 46 50 37 42
Olivia!Lucina 42 31 45 47 47 39 39
Maiden!Lucina 42 31 44 46 47 40 40
Avatar!Lucina ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? (the actual stats vary)
Avatar!Lucina 46 28 46 45 47 42 39 (strength is the asset for the Avatar and magic is the flaw)
In short, Lucina has the potential to be very different from King Marth, especially if the Avatar is her mother who can even give Lucina King Marth's stat modifiers since his asset is strength and his flaw is magic (doing so effectively makes Lucina a superior version of King Marth aside of King Marth's ability to wield Exalted Falchion). Lucina will also inherit whatever skills her mother can acquire, which changes the game even further.


Doctor Mario...I've got nothing on him. They tried inventing a reason for his differences so I'll give them that. It still baffles me that Mario's doctor alter ego apparently has some differences from his usual self when it's normally just a costume swap.

I personally don't really mind clones, but that doesn't mean I particularly like how Dark Pit and Lucina were handled. I was actually ecstatic that Lucina made it in Smash but I was eventually left a bit disappointed that she was designed to be "a beginner's Marth", which is somewhat disrespectful to Lucina and her fans (she has similarities to the man but this is taking it to the extreme and reeks of favoritism toward Marth). Roy wasn't even designed to be "a beginner's Marth" back in Melee (in his own game he has more similarities to Marth than Lucina does), and he now has even more differences from Marth than Lucina does (granted Roy's a post-release downloadable content character and Lucina was originally planned to be a costume swap for Marth and changed in a short time span but still).

 

[SHiFT_]

This really isn't surprising at all.

 

[the101]

Personally I'm glad that Alph ultimately became a swap for Olimar . I think it works better this way because the two, by design, don't possess any distinct qualities from one another in Pikmin 3. They're suppose to play identically. In my honest opinion I don't think Rock Pikmin would've been distinguishable enough given their similar functionality to Purple Pikmin.

To be honest I'm tired of people thinking so poorly of the clones and not being very appreciative of the ones we got. I understand how their appeal is subjective, but that's no reason to think of them in such bad distaste. No one is making you play as them, and they weren't keeping anyone else from become a playable fighter either.

I think it was purely well thought fan-service to separate Dr. Mario from Mario . It's a gift within itself to have his move set from Melee preserved for those who enjoyed playing as him all those years ago. Otherwise I'm glad that Dark Pit and Lucina are their own playable characters, although I feel the nature in which they became their own cloned fighters resulted in some missed opportunities. For example, I think it would have been more interesting if Dark Pit utilized his Staff in his entire move set instead of his Final Smash. He could have made for an interesting all-range fighter that would've reflected the alternative weaponry in Kid Icarus Uprising very well. But at the same time I'm not too beat up about it.

There's also the fact that, canonically, Lucina fighting one handed, like Marth, doesn't make sense. Her fighting style comes from Chrom, since he is her father, and that is a two handed fighting style primarily. Her render even makes a nod to it:

Lucina's fighting style is that of a fencer (a one handed fighting style) in Smash due to copying Marth's moves. But she fights with a two handed style canonically. Her fighting style doesn't even properly represent her character in Smash. Which actually goes against one of Sakurai's own design philosophies in designing characters for Smash.

I think you are overlooking the fact that within the context of Fire Emblem Awakening Marth and Lucina are heavily associated with one another. Even within the context of Awakening's DLC Marth has identical animations to Lucina and even shares the same base model. Therefore having the two behave so closely to each other isn't an alien concept.

Although I personally would have preferred a more individualized Lucina as well. In particular I think her self-healing move - Aether - could have been very interesting as a move.

I think all four of them should have been their own characters, clones or not. Dark Pit is not Pit, Lucina is not Marth, Doctor Mario is... Well. And Alph is NOT Olimar.

I hate alternate costumes that turn one character into another.

I can understand that ideology, but personally I don't see it as blasphemy, as I previously stated. If the character has no unique abilities beyond that of the base character then their inclusion as an individual fighter seems trivial. This especially holds true for Alph, who plays identically to not only Olimar but also Brittany, Charlie, Louie, The President, and any future protagonist of the Pikmin series. As long as they are treated as their own character but not their own fighter, then I am content. Besides, I don't want to see each individual Koopaling () take up so much space on the character selection screen just because they technically aren't Bowser Jr. . I already have to deal with this in Mario Kart 8.

 

[SwordOfSeals]

I like how most people are complaining about Dark Pit YET most of you use him anyways. Besides, Sakurai said they took almost no time to make. No Harm done so stop complaining.

No

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

The smell of hypocrisy in here is making me sick. People pretending that an Alph clone would have been a better choice than the rest of the other clones. It wouldn`t. Or at least it would depend on who you like better individually.

Let me tell you the most likely scenarios of how this would have gone. We get an Alph clone, then people who are already making a fuss about the 3 clones would complain even louder because now because we have 4. Cue comments about how he stole a spot and how the time that it was used for him could have been used for someone else.
Honestly, most of the people who are pretending to want him over the others are just band-wagoners who do this out of spite for the Smash 4 dev team. They don`t want him because they actually liked him, but because he is not in the game as his own character and that automatically makes him 50x times better than whoever other character who got in for some reason. People desire what they know they can`t have.

There's also the fact that, canonically, Lucina fighting one handed, like Marth, doesn't make sense. Her fighting style comes from Chrom, since he is her father, and that is a two handed fighting style primarily. Her render even makes a nod to it:


Lucina's fighting style is that of a fencer (a one handed fighting style) in Smash due to copying Marth's moves. But she fights with a two handed style canonically. Her fighting style doesn't even properly represent her character in Smash. Which actually goes against one of Sakurai's own design philosophies in designing characters for Smash.

The thing is that in Awakening`s story it is stated that Chrom and Lucina descended from Marth. And in regards to Royalty, a House`s weapon and fighting style tends to be passed down from generation to generation so it can inferred that Marth taught his swordsmanship skills to his children and then they did the same with their own children an so on until they reached Chrom. So in that way, Lucina inherited Marth`s fighting style which is why her status in Smash makes sense, add to that that she was masquerading as him for a while. That, and the fact that in that game, all playable versions of Marth are just head swaps of Lucina.

Choosing to focus on whether or not she is using one hand or two is a very trivial matter. Lucina and Chrom also has some attack animations where they attack using only one hand instead of two. Ike has some one handed attacks as well in Smash despite using a two handed big sword so it is kind of petty and pointless to make a big deal out of it because it is not a significant issue to make one say that it derides from their character.

 

[Nintendotard]

I still wish they gave Olimar Rockmin. I mean, come on. They could be just like Purples, but harder to kill and thats it. Poor guy is the only lone Pikmin we know exists but didn't make it in

Also wish that Louie, The President, Brittany, and Charlie made it too as alts. If Iggy, Roy, and Morton can be the same size as Junior then these guys can be the same height as Olimar. Plus, I already believe The President is. Louie and Brittany are slightly taller, but not by much

 

[AuraShaman]

...I remember Sakurai saying stuff about his clone desicions, like it would be weird if Dr. Mario had F.L.U.D.D., or if Dark Pit used the Three Sacred Treasures... My biggest fear is that there is legit evidence that his word is hypocritical.


The Koopalings never turned into Shadow Mario.




It's the end for Pitoo-sempai~

...People use Dark Pit?

YES!!

I would like to see them again in Smash 5, still as separate characters.

Personally I'm glad that Alph ultimately became a swap for Olimar . I think it works better this way because the two, by design, don't possess any distinct qualities from one another in Pikmin 3. They're suppose to play identically. In my honest opinion I don't think Rock Pikmin would've been distinguishable enough given their similar functionality to Purple Pikmin.

To be honest I'm tired of people thinking so poorly of the clones and not being very appreciative of the ones we got. I understand how their appeal is subjective, but that's no reason to think of them in such bad distaste. No one is making you play as them, and they weren't keeping anyone else from become a playable fighter either.

I think it was purely well thought fan-service to separate Dr. Mario from Mario . It's a gift within itself to have his move set from Melee preserved for those who enjoyed playing as him all those years ago. Otherwise I'm glad that Dark Pit and Lucina are their own playable characters, although I feel the nature in which they became their own cloned fighters resulted in some missed opportunities. For example, I think it would have been more interesting if Dark Pit utilized his Staff in his entire move set instead of his Final Smash. He could have made for an interesting all-range fighter that would've reflected the alternative weaponry in Kid Icarus Uprising very well. But at the same time I'm not too beat up about it.

I think you are overlooking the fact that within the context of Fire Emblem Awakening Marth and Lucina are heavily associated with one another. Even within the context of Awakening's DLC Marth has identical animations to Lucina and even shares the same base model. Therefore having the two behave so closely to each other isn't an alien concept.

Although I personally would have preferred a more individualized Lucina as well. In particular I think her self-healing move - Aether - could have been very interesting as a move.

I love you both; took the words right out of my mouth.

It isn't poor reasoning considering how extreme these clones are - if they were more akin to Toon Link and Lucas, it would be a different story. But making Dark Pit have the same animations as Pit, only with way better properties, is a slap in the face to Pit fans. Making Dark Pit much worse is a slap in the face to Dark Pit fans. Making them both identical through an alt costume, pleases both.

Making them both identical through an alt costume, pleases both.

pleases both.

...You've been pushing my buttons for long enough. Quit talking like you're talking for the people. It's called "fan service"; I don't think you got the news, but Dark Pit was actually highly requested in Japan.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

.

The Koopalings never turned into Shadow Mario.




It's the end for Pitoo-sempai~

Though true, it is obvious that this was the most reasonable decision rather than separating them into 7 different slots.

 

[Brickbuild101]

Aw, that's a shame. More people would use him and remember he's in the game at all if he had his own roster slot.

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

Alph really should have been a clone instead of Dark Pit. People would probably have complained less about Pikmin having two characters than KI having three.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

...You've been pushing my buttons for long enough. Quit talking like you're talking for the people. It's called "fan service"; I don't think you got the news, but Dark Pit was actually highly requested in Japan.

Actually, based off observations on Japanese desires by Chronobound, the only KI character that was heavily requested for Smash was Palutena.

Anyways, what I have to say is this.

Legitimately different characters like Dark Pit, Lucina & Alph being clones instead of alts if there was only a choice between these two options = Good idea

Different characters being suggested as alts when they could easily be clones = Generally a bad idea

Different forms of the same character being alts= Good idea

If Alph was considered as a clone character in Smash 4, maybe he will be considered for Smash 5 as a semi-clone option?

 

[Kirbyfan391]

I'm glad Alph didn't get in as a separate clone tbh, I think even the 3 hated(Dr. Mario, Lucina, and Dark Pit) were all warranted since they actually stood out as characters lot of people wanted or were important but Alph? Not really.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I'm glad Alph didn't get in as a separate clone tbh, I think even the 3 hated(Dr. Mario, Lucina, and Dark Pit) were all warranted since they actually stood out as characters lot of people wanted or were important but Alph? Not really.

Alph is no less important to his series than Dark Pit is consideirng Alph was the main character of his game.

 

[Kirbyfan391]

Alph is no less important to his series than Dark Pit is consideirng Alph was the main character of his game.

Not to his series, but I think Dark Pit was just more well-liked/popular than Alph was to the general fanbase. Even though Pikmin and Kid Icarus aren't relatively big franchises, it still felt like Dark Pit had more popularity than Alph did.

The main character thing would be a big point if we didn't already have Olimar though.

 

[AuraShaman]

Alph is no less important to his series than Dark Pit is consideirng Alph was the main character of his game.

I'm sorry, but I might actually have to agree with @ Kirbyfan391 ; not because I think you're wrong about ideal importance, but because he and Olimar are literally palette swaps of each other in the Pikmin games. In Pikmin, every character is identical to each other; they throw Pikmin the same, they have the same amount of health. There really is no difference other than, well...character~




Aaaand I just realized Pitoo is exactly the same scenario in Uprising... Well, I can't just throw away an argument I spent actual time on. Think...

Uh...he uses a different arsenal of weapons?

 

[Aguki90]

I would still prefer him than .

Why? Not only he have Rock Pikmin or make him like brawl Olimar something new like that but because.

ROCK-PIKMIN ARE SOO FREAKING ADORABLE. SOO ADORABLE YOU CUTENESS HEART WILL EXPLODE.

 

[Kirbyfan391]

I'm sorry, but I might actually have to agree with @ Kirbyfan391 ; not because I think you're wrong about ideal importance, but because he and Olimar are literally palette swaps of each other in the Pikmin games. In Pikmin, every character is identical to each other; they throw Pikmin the same, they have the same amount of health. There really is no difference other than, well...character~




Aaaand I just realized Pitoo is exactly the same scenario in Uprising... Well, I can't just throw away an argument I spent actual time on. Think...

Uh...he uses a different arsenal of weapons?

Dark Pit's a supporting character and not a protagonist character of the story for one. Olimar and Alph on the other hand are both main characters. The ones that are the star of their (respective) stories, Dark Pit isn't, that's something only exclusive to Pit. He's not the main character is what I'm saying, their character roles are different, which is significant.

 

[AuraShaman]

Dark Pit's a supporting character and not a protagonist character of the story for one. Olimar and Alph on the other hand are both main characters. The ones that are the star of their (respective) stories, Dark Pit isn't, that's something only exclusive to Pit. He's not the main character is what I'm saying, their character roles are different, which is significant.

I don't see why that would matter. :/

 

[Deleted member]

Sakurai bias confirmed. putting his own character before Miyamotos feels so wrong, i would love alph because im a huge pikmin fan. at least i don't have to deal with all the hate dark pit gets.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

I'm surprised it took until now to announce this as I've read something about this awhile ago

Alph would've made an unique clone, rather than what I've seen with Doc and Dark Pit

 

[U-Throw]

I'm surprised it took until now to announce this as I've read something about this awhile ago

Alph would've made an unique clone, rather than what I've seen with Doc and Dark Pit

Um... Dr. Mario is the most unique clone in Smash 4.

 

[TylerBlackRunIt]

After reading some comments....

Lucina don't deserve this hate....

How can you not love Lucina...

Lucina will destroy you haters...

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

I'm cool with the two clones we got minus the Doc but Alph would of been pretty fun. To bad he didn't get enough development time but perhaps we could see him included as DLC?

 

[MOI-ARI]

After reading some comments....

Lucina don't deserve this hate....

How can you not love Lucina...

Lucina will destroy you haters...

that third pic doe....

 

[DEDEDEDEDEDE]

Would have been better than these things ->

Fixed.

Fixed properly.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Um... Dr. Mario is the most unique clone in Smash 4.

I never really consider Doc an unique clone because I dislike how Mario is in the game as two different forms. But if you say so...

 

[U-Throw]

I never really consider Doc an unique clone because I dislike how Mario is in the game as two different forms. But if you say so...

I was referring to his gameplay differences. He has a unique D-Air, Down Special, Super Jump Punch, separate sweet spot placement on his F-Smash, different launch angles on multiple attacks, a more combo-friendly D-Throw, slower speed and faster falling speed, and all-around more power. He's by far the most unique clone in terms of gameplay differences.

 

[Deidara]

Marth isn't all that hard to use. Even if you don't know how to do the tipper thing, you can still do fine with him casually (and casuals are the only ones who need "beginner friendly" stuff anyway). He's the last character that needed training wheels. There is also the fact that Marth's attack animations and frame data are built with spacing for the tipper in mind. They didn't alter this at all for Lucina's tipper-less playstyle, which makes her flawed by design, since you still need to space in order to not whiff your attacks and get punished. So no, I really don't feel she added anything there. Especially since she is an unlockable character, and the most reliable way of unlocking her involves using Marth. The easiest and quickest method for unlocking "beginner Marth", is to play as regular Marth.

There's also the fact that, canonically, Lucina fighting one handed, like Marth, doesn't make sense. Her fighting style comes from Chrom, since he is her father, and that is a two handed fighting style primarily. Her render even makes a nod to it:

Lucina's fighting style is that of a fencer (a one handed fighting style) in Smash due to copying Marth's moves. But she fights with a two handed style canonically. Her fighting style doesn't even properly represent her character in Smash. Which actually goes against one of Sakurai's own design philosophies in designing characters for Smash.

But wasn't Ike fast in FE? I feel like Sakurai doesn't really use that philosophy anymore.

 

[ChikoLad]

But wasn't Ike fast in FE? I feel like Sakurai doesn't really use that philosophy anymore.

He's pretty fast in Smash 4, what with his side B, quick aerial movement speed, and his auto cancelling aerials.

 

[Deidara]

He's pretty fast in Smash 4, what with his side B, quick aerial movement speed, and his auto cancelling aerials.

I guess. but overall, he's considered more of a slow character.

 

[ChikoLad]

I guess. but overall, he's considered more of a slow character.

I suppose, though he can be surprisingly quick when you know how to use him.

 

[Deidara]

I suppose, though he can be surprisingly quick when you know how to use him.

Yes, I know..

 

[ThePuffDaddy]

Damn that would have been cool.

 

[PhantomShab]

As she is, lucina is worthless, and ironically goes against sakurai's mentality for keeping smash characters close to their canon selves.

Ganondorf went against it (and still does) way before Lucina.

 

[MuhJealous]

Oh! That Alph. I never played any games in the Pikmin series and expecting something else