Source Gaming: Alph Was Once A Full-Blown Clone!

[ThyShallBeDone]

Dr. Mario I have no problem with. Pit & Lucina on the other hand... Just... Why? My main problem is that both of them have the potential for a unique move set. I rather they not be include rather than made into clones.

 

[gyasim]

I know quite a few people who enjoy Lucina's lack of a tipper. They are few, but they exist. Just ask @ミスティック Speed. She greatly enjoys Lucina, and not because of her character. I highly doubt she would main Lucina if she were an Alt. As for the game not needing clones due to Custom Moves, I'd like to point out that most clones' differences extend beyond Special Moves. Dr. Mario, Lucina, and even Dark Pit all have differences that can't be encompassed with Customs.

Besides, Lucina can always be buffed and made viable, even without a tipper. That's a poor reason to demote her to an Alt. The "clones only belong in Street Fighter" argument is illogical to me, so I'm not going to address it until it's elaborated upon such that it makes sense.

The Street Fighter argument wasn't even pointed at you. So I will focus my attention on what I did point at you.

Dark Pits only difference is that side b, I do not care if you think his f tilt or whatever is a notable difference, no one else thinks that. I never said Dr. Mario was a clone, even though one might say he is. As for Lucina, she is completely worthless in this game, sonicbrawler's argument would be identical to mine on Lucina.

 

[Tino]

As someone who used to play as Lucina, I should be offended by some of the comments made here regarding her. In fact, why are y'all still complaining about them anyways?

 

[U-Throw]

The Street Fighter argument wasn't even pointed at you. So I will focus my attention on what I did point at you.

Dark Pits only difference is that side b, I do not care if you think his f tilt or whatever is a notable difference, no one else thinks that. I never said Dr. Mario was a clone, even though one might say he is. As for Lucina, she is completely worthless in this game, sonicbrawler's argument would be identical to mine on Lucina.

Regardless of what you think, Dark Pit's F-Tilt having reduced knockback is a difference that can't be encompassed with Customs. There's no denying that. Granted, it's a small difference, but it's a difference nonetheless.

In regards to the argument against Lucina, I've already addressed it. Her inferiority to Marth can easily be fixed whilst maintaining her lack of a tipper, so that's no reason to demote to her. Moreover, there are people, such as Speed, that enjoy Lucina's lack of a tipper, so the argument of "the only people who main her are those that like her as a character" is invalid.

 

[ChikoLad]

I know quite a few people who enjoy Lucina's lack of a tipper. They are few, but they exist. Just ask @ミスティック Speed. She greatly enjoys Lucina, and not because of her character. I highly doubt she would main Lucina if she were an Alt. As for the game not needing clones due to Custom Moves, I'd like to point out that most clones' differences extend beyond Special Moves. Dr. Mario, Lucina, and even Dark Pit all have differences that can't be encompassed with Customs.

Besides, Lucina can always be buffed and made viable, even without a tipper. That's a poor reason to demote her to an Alt. The "clones only belong in Street Fighter" argument is illogical to me, so I'm not going to address it until it's elaborated upon such that it makes sense.

You know, there is nothing wrong with clones by principle, but the reason why people are bothered by Smash 4's is because they are blatantly worse versions of the original.

Dark Pit's only differences are that his Electroshock launches sideways rather than upwards (which can situationally be better than Pit's, but Pit's is better most of the time), his arrows do 1% more damage uncharged (2% more fully charged), but can barely be directed, and his F-Tilt does significantly less knockback. These are just blatant downgrades from Pit, and add absolutely nothing to him. He has no "niche". He would have been better off as an alt.

Lucina I've already gone into, and once again, I think she doesn't successfully fill her niche. Would have been better as an alt.

Dr. Mario, while having a substantial amount of changes and has one or two minor things that are better about him, only ends up as a much worse Mario. A Mario that only benefits from playing defensively. Mario, on the other hand, can do that BETTER than the Doctor, while also being very efficient at a whole lot more. He would have added more as an alt (for me personally, Mario is my third main, but I prefer Dr. Mario's aesthetics. I hate how Dr. Mario plays though, so I don't play as him. If he were an alt, I would get the best of both worlds).

Time constraints is totally a valid argument. The game came out the time that it did with the roster that it did so no one would be disappointed when the game was delayed. Clearly they had bigger fish to fry with the DLC after the game came out.

Sakurai has touched on DLC and clones in his Famitsu columns. I am not quoting him directly when I say that he has stated his knowledge of the want of Roy, Lucas and Mewtwo's return during the final days of development. I doubt he knew that a couple people in the comment section of a fansite wanted Alph. And if you do want Alph, you have a direct feed to tell him so with the Smash Ballot.

I didn't even need to say all of this. I could've just put a picture of one of the most popular characters from one of Nintendos most popular franchises (Mewtwo) next to Alph, who is a pallette swap for a game that was ironically delayed for years.

No, it isn't a valid argument. They could have easily squeezed Alph in as a DLC clone if they just kept the other three clones as alts (since giving them any differences take more time than making them just alts, which was apparently a stage they were already at before making them clones). They could have even packaged him with Mewtwo in the Club Nintendo promotion, as a nice extra.

 

[n8han11]

Can't we just accept that and are here to stay in Smash 4? Not like constantly complaining about them is going to change the fact that they are here now...

 

[ChikoLad]

Can't we just accept that and are here to stay in Smash 4? Not like constantly complaining about them is going to change the fact that they are here now...

I do accept them, but at the same time, people insist on defending them when I express that "Alph should have been the clone, not the three we got".

 

[Tino]

Can't we just accept that and are here to stay in Smash 4? Not like constantly complaining about them is going to change the fact that they are here now...

I would like to see them again in Smash 5, still as separate characters.

 

[U-Throw]

You know, there is nothing wrong with clones by principle, but the reason why people are bothered by Smash 4's is because they are blatantly worse versions of the original.

Dark Pit's only differences are that his Electroshock launches sideways rather than upwards (which can situationally be better than Pit's, but Pit's is better most of the time), his arrows do 1% more damage uncharged (2% more fully charged), but can barely be directed, and his F-Tilt does significantly less knockback. These are just blatant downgrades from Pit, and add absolutely nothing to him. He has no "niche". He would have been better off as an alt.

Lucina I've already gone into, and once again, I think she doesn't successfully fill her niche. Would have been better as an alt.

Dr. Mario, while having a substantial amount of changes and has one or two minor things that are better about him, only ends up as a much worse Mario. A Mario that only benefits from playing defensively. Mario, on the other hand, can do that BETTER than the Doctor, while also being very efficient at a whole lot more. He would have added more as an alt (for me personally, Mario is my third main, but I prefer Dr. Mario's aesthetics. I hate how Dr. Mario plays though, so I don't play as him. If he were an alt, I would get the best of both worlds).

Did you ignore most of my post? The clones being inferior is a poor reason to demote them, as they can be buffed while still maintaining their differences. Don't demote them, just fix them up. It's a solution that pleases everyone, compared to a solution that will anger people who enjoy their differences.

Your issue with Dr. Mario won't be fixed, even if he were made viable. He was designed to be a slower, more powerful Mario, and, since that's your opinion, it hardly has any bearing regarding his status as a clone. There are people, such as myself, who vastly prefer Dr. Mario's playstyle to Mario's, so making him a Mario Alt. would defeat the entire purpose of playing as him to us. If you don't like how Dr. Mario plays, then stick to Mario. I would love to play as Iggy, but I'm not a fan of his playstyle, so I just dropped him. If he played differently, I personally would be better off, but I know that many, many people would be devastated, so I don't call for dramatic changes to his moveset. I found Dr. Mario and Mewtwo to take Iggy's place, and you've found Mario to take Dr. Mario's place. Neither of us are completely happy, but that's just life. I wouldn't take away somebody else's happiness for my own desires, especially when I'm content with what I've already got.

 

[TheWozny]

I would have had Louie be a palette swap for using his moveset, as well as being his own character with different moves, using only Red, Blue. Yellow, and Rock Pikmin, and having Brittany and Charlie as Alts.

 

[ChikoLad]

Did you ignore most of my post? The clones being inferior is a poor reason to demote them, as they can be buffed while still maintaining their differences. Don't demote them, just fix them up. It's a solution that pleases everyone, compared to a solution that will anger people who enjoy their differences.

Your issue with Dr. Mario won't be fixed, even if he were made viable. He was designed to be a slower, more powerful Mario, and, since that's your opinion, it hardly has any bearing regarding his status as a clone. There are people, such as myself, who vastly prefer Dr. Mario's playstyle to Mario's, so making him a Mario Alt. would defeat the entire purpose of playing as him to us. If you don't like how Dr. Mario plays, then stick to Mario. I would love to play as Iggy, but I'm not a fan of his playstyle, so I just dropped him. If he played differently, I personally would be better off, but I know that many, many people would be devastated, so I don't call for dramatic changes to his moveset. I found Dr. Mario and Mewtwo to take Iggy's place, and you've found Mario to take Dr. Mario's place. Neither of us are completely happy, but that's just life. I wouldn't take away somebody else's happiness for my own desires, especially when I'm content with what I've already got.

Preferring Dr. Mario's playstyle literally doesn't make sense though, unless you really love the Tornado being a Down B that much.

Mario literally has the same playstyle as Dr. Mario, except he does it better. He also has other playstyles to work with, while Dr. Mario has just one.

Logically, there is no reason to prefer his playstyle.

As for "buffing" the others, Lucina is beyond saving. Her very idea is what cripples her, and attack animations won't be changed via patched, only how fast or slow they are. Lucina is advertised as being Marth without the tipper, and that's all she will ever be.

As for Dark Pit, if you buff his arrows and F-Tilt, then he literally only has one move difference, which is still worse than Pit's most of the time.

 

[Shuriblur]

There's also the fact that, canonically, Lucina fighting one handed, like Marth, doesn't make sense. Her fighting style comes from Chrom, since he is her father, and that is a two handed fighting style primarily. Her render even makes a nod to it:


Lucina's fighting style is that of a fencer (a one handed fighting style) in Smash due to copying Marth's moves. But she fights with a two handed style canonically. Her fighting style doesn't even properly represent her character in Smash. Which actually goes against one of Sakurai's own design philosophies in designing characters for Smash.

Does Lucina really fight with a 2-handed style? Maybe I didn't pay much attention in the cutscenes, but her model in the game seems to use a one-handed style of fighting. She even has an animation that pokes at the enemy much like her shield breaker does.

 

[U-Throw]

Preferring Dr. Mario's playstyle literally doesn't make sense though, unless you really love the Tornado being a Down B that much.

Mario literally has the same playstyle as Dr. Mario, except he does it better. He also has other playstyles to work with, while Dr. Mario has just one.

Logically, there is no reason to prefer his playstyle.

As for "buffing" the others, Lucina is beyond saving. Her very idea is what cripples her, and attack animations won't be changed via patched, only how fast or slow they are. Lucina is advertised as being Marth without the tipper, and that's all she will ever be.

As for Dark Pit, if you buff his arrows and F-Tilt, then he literally only has one move difference, which is still worse than Pit's most of the time.

I enjoy Dr. Mario's extra power, Dr. Tornado, and his version of Super Jump Punch more than Mario's. He has several key differences, and he could easily be buffed to be viable via less ending/landing lag, a better combo game, more power, or a better recovery.

There's no such thing as a character that can't be saved. Lucina could be made faster, stronger, given a better combo game or recovery, or even granted increased range. There's a million different things you could change about Lucina to compensate for her weaknesses while still maintaining her lack of a tipper.

So, buff Dark Pit's recovery, power, combo game, or any number of other things in order to compensate for his shortcomings. Like Lucina, there are several changes you could make to Dark Pit in order to make up for his weaknesses.

 

[gyasim]

You know, there is nothing wrong with clones by principle, but the reason why people are bothered by Smash 4's is because they are blatantly worse versions of the original.


No, it isn't a valid argument. They could have easily squeezed Alph in as a DLC clone if they just kept the other three clones as alts (since giving them any differences take more time than making them just alts, which was apparently a stage they were already at before making them clones). They could have even packaged him with Mewtwo in the Club Nintendo promotion, as a nice extra.

To be honest I don't think you're reading my arguments. You are probably skimming through and have ignored my points entirely. You only want Alph because you don't like Lucina, and you got her instead of Alph. Everything seems better when it's gone. As I have stated before, time restraints is a valid argument as it's the one Sakurai made, and he knows more about this game than the both of us combined.

Everything you said about Lucina and Dark Pit could be applied to Alph. And would have been had he been a clone instead of a palette swap. He wouldn't have been your dream move set and semi clone. The headline of this article erases your argument with three words. Full. Blown. Clone.

But people never want to admit that they're wrong.

 

[Kingslayer77]

I know quite a few people who enjoy Lucina's lack of a tipper. They are few, but they exist. Just ask @ミスティック Speed. She greatly enjoys Lucina, and not because of her character. I highly doubt she would main Lucina if she were an Alt. As for the game not needing clones due to Custom Moves, I'd like to point out that most clones' differences extend beyond Special Moves. Dr. Mario, Lucina, and even Dark Pit all have differences that can't be encompassed with Customs.

Besides, Lucina can always be buffed and made viable, even without a tipper. That's a poor reason to demote her to an Alt. The "clones only belong in Street Fighter" argument is illogical to me, so I'm not going to address it until it's elaborated upon such that it makes sense.

I can agree with your last point, but the question is, will it happen? Probably not. Whenever lucina gets buffed, marth usually gets the exact same buffs. This is a hard topic for me, as I loved lucina in awakening, but was greatly let down by her portrayal in smash. Not only did sakurai completely go against his own philosophy in developing characters, and as a result did not do her character justice, but as a competitive smasher I feel constant pressure to switch to marth to get better results. I have this loyalty to lucina, but the fact that she is fundamentally flawed by design, and the fact that her and marth are practically the same character but with a different model, really upsets me.

 

[gyasim]

Did you ignore most of my post? The clones being inferior is a poor reason to demote them, as they can be buffed while still maintaining their differences. Don't demote them, just fix them up. It's a solution that pleases everyone, compared to a solution that will anger people who enjoy their differences.

Your issue with Dr. Mario won't be fixed, even if he were made viable. He was designed to be a slower, more powerful Mario, and, since that's your opinion, it hardly has any bearing regarding his status as a clone. There are people, such as myself, who vastly prefer Dr. Mario's playstyle to Mario's, so making him a Mario Alt. would defeat the entire purpose of playing as him to us. If you don't like how Dr. Mario plays, then stick to Mario. I would love to play as Iggy, but I'm not a fan of his playstyle, so I just dropped him. If he played differently, I personally would be better off, but I know that many, many people would be devastated, so I don't call for dramatic changes to his moveset. I found Dr. Mario and Mewtwo to take Iggy's place, and you've found Mario to take Dr. Mario's place. Neither of us are completely happy, but that's just life. I wouldn't take away somebody else's happiness for my own desires, especially when I'm content with what I've already got.

I do think he is straight up ignoring some of our posts for the sake of his argument. Even though I agree with him or her about Dark a Pit and Lucina.

 

[ChikoLad]

So, buff Dark Pit's recovery

....I seriously don't think you're thinking this through and are just mindlessly defending them at this point.

And even if you do buff the clones, you still run into the issue of them just being objectively better than the originals (with the buffs you suggested, they would be). Which just causes a ridiculous balance issue.

To be honest I don't think you're reading my arguments. You are probably skimming through and have ignored my points entirely. You only want Alph because you don't like Lucina, and you got her instead of Alph. Everything seems better when it's gone. As I have stated before, time restraints is a valid argument as it's the one Sakurai made, and he knows more about this game than the both of us combined.

Everything you said about Lucina and Dark Pit could be applied to Alph. And would have been had he been a clone instead of a palette swap. He wouldn't have been your dream move set and semi clone. The headline of this article erases your argument with three words. Full. Blown. Clone.

But people never want to admit that they're wrong.

I'm not ignoring your arguments, but you are making assumptions about what I want.

I don't have any bias towards Alph or Lucina from their respective games, but I want Alph more because his method of being a clone, as it is described in Sakurai's words, is inherently preferable to anything we got from the clones. Olimar's playstyle also has more things that can be easily changed and varied for a different playstyle, like different Pikmin rotation system, the Rock Pikmin, etc. With Lucina, all she is, is a sword with different damage and knockback properties and nothing else.

Also the article title was made by a Smashboards writer looking for a buzzword that would catch attention. That isn't Sakurai's words.

 

[mario123007]

What refining did Ganondorf get? They changed Gerudo Dragon too whatever his side b is now, isn't that it?

Gerudo Dragon?
It's called warlock choke I think? I really dislike Ganon's side B...
I mean, characters like Falco, Ganondorf, and even Luigi used to be an entire clone. But I'm fine that they actually got a bit different moveset compare to their clone counterpart.

I think Roy is a very successful case here in Smash4.
Lucina and Dark Pit only has their ability difference. I know that Dark Pit has different Final Smash, and side B. But overall he is like Pit. While Lucina is nearly the same as Marth.

 

[TheGalaxyKnight]

Technically I have alf as a separate character when I use custom moves. I believe he has the pluck that harms opponents, dizzy whistle, I forget Wichita Up B, and I also forget the side b... please remind me what the customs are as a forgot some of them

 

[Solutionme]

Fixed.

Or we could just get rid of the being weaker than the original clone symptom. They're already in there, let's just make them play slightly different but equally, if you understand what I mean.

 

[gyasim]

....I seriously don't think you're thinking this through and are just mindlessly defending them at this point.

And even if you do buff the clones, you still run into the issue of them just being objectively better than the originals (with the buffs you suggested, they would be). Which just causes a ridiculous balance issue.



I'm not ignoring your arguments, but you are making assumptions about what I want.

I don't have any bias towards Alph or Lucina from their respective games, but I want Alph more because his method of being a clone, as it is described in Sakurai's words, is inherently preferable to anything we got from the clones. Olimar's playstyle also has more things that can be easily changed and varied for a different playstyle, like different Pikmin rotation system, the Rock Pikmin, etc. With Lucina, all she is, is a sword with different damage and knockback properties and nothing else.

Also the article title was made by a Smashboards writer looking for a buzzword that would catch attention. That isn't Sakurai's words.

They arent Sakurai's words or the Smashboards writer, they're the words of translator. Who found out that Alph was once a clone.And Olimar and Alph BOTH had Rock Pikmin. You can argue for any of the clones but it's pointless, these are the ones we got. If we got Alph, you would complain too.

 

[Alph Aran]

I actually liked 's carefree playstyle better than 's before returned. I think should have been held back so they could work on his moveset some more before releasing him as DLC. I wonder if character popularity was a reason why Alph wasn't prioritized before it was too late. A lot of people like Lucina and Dark Pit and are generally indifferent/hateful to Olimar. Not saying it's a good excuse, but still worth noting. Really would liked to meteor smash folks with a Rock Pikmin.

 

[U-Throw]

....I seriously don't think you're thinking this through and are just mindlessly defending them at this point.

And even if you do buff the clones, you still run into the issue of them just being objectively better than the originals (with the buffs you suggested, they would be). Which just causes a ridiculous balance issue.

Look, my point is, you can buff any number of things about the clones to make them viable. I wasn't suggesting that Sakurai should buff any one of those particular areas, or that all of those areas should be buffed, but I was saying that there are a million different things you could change about each of the clones in order to make them more viable.

That's a terrible reason to demote the clones to Alts. "They're inferior, so we should buff them, but, if we buff them, they become better than the originals, so we should just demote them to Alts." That's poor reasoning. By that logic, Sakurai shouldn't buff anyone and should just straight-up remove unviable characters because buffing them could make them overpowered. Of course, this isn't a reasonable solution. Perfect balance will probably never be achieved, but it can be worked toward, and doing so is certainly possible without demoting the clones to Alts.

 

[ChikoLad]

They arent Sakurai's words or the Smashboards writer, they're the words of translator. Who found out that Alph was once a clone.And Olimar and Alph BOTH had Rock Pikmin. You can argue for any of the clones but it's pointless, these are the ones we got. If we got Alph, you would complain too.

Except the design document is from very, very early in development, meaning everything was subject to change.

Saying "you would feel this way" is not a good debating tactic, by the way. Stop doing that. You don't know me or how I think, let alone how I would hypothetically react to something. I would still prefer Alph as a clone, even if he played overly similarly, on the basis he looks very different to Olimar, while we have a clone that LITERALLY is the same person as the original in a different outfit, a clone who is canonically a clone and by design is just a recolour (in fact, Dark Pit's design was based on a colour swap for Pit in Brawl), and a clone that by design, is a genderbent Marth.

Look, my point is, you can buff any number of things about the clones to make them viable. I wasn't suggesting that Sakurai should buff any one of those particular areas, or that all of those areas should be buffed, but I was saying that there are a million different things you could change about each of the clones in order to make them more viable.

That's a terrible reason to demote the clones to Alts. "They're inferior, so we should buff them, but, if we buff them, they become better than the originals, so we should just demote them to Alts." That's poor reasoning. By that logic, Sakurai shouldn't buff anyone and should just straight-up remove unviable characters because buffing them could make them overpowered. Of course, this isn't a reasonable solution. Perfect balance will probably never be achieved, but it can be worked toward, and doing so is certainly possible without demoting the clones to Alts.

It isn't poor reasoning considering how extreme these clones are - if they were more akin to Toon Link and Lucas, it would be a different story. But making Dark Pit have the same animations as Pit, only with way better properties, is a slap in the face to Pit fans. Making Dark Pit much worse is a slap in the face to Dark Pit fans. Making them both identical through an alt costume, pleases both.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

"Pikmin bias!!!!"
It's kind of weird how they did cut the Rock Pikmin. It would be cool if there was some "RNG" application for them, or even used in a Custom move.

 

[mario123007]

You know, there is nothing wrong with clones by principle, but the reason why people are bothered by Smash 4's is because they are blatantly worse versions of the original.

Dark Pit's only differences are that his Electroshock launches sideways rather than upwards (which can situationally be better than Pit's, but Pit's is better most of the time), his arrows do 1% more damage uncharged (2% more fully charged), but can barely be directed, and his F-Tilt does significantly less knockback. These are just blatant downgrades from Pit, and add absolutely nothing to him. He has no "niche". He would have been better off as an alt.

Lucina I've already gone into, and once again, I think she doesn't successfully fill her niche. Would have been better as an alt.

Dr. Mario, while having a substantial amount of changes and has one or two minor things that are better about him, only ends up as a much worse Mario. A Mario that only benefits from playing defensively. Mario, on the other hand, can do that BETTER than the Doctor, while also being very efficient at a whole lot more. He would have added more as an alt (for me personally, Mario is my third main, but I prefer Dr. Mario's aesthetics. I hate how Dr. Mario plays though, so I don't play as him. If he were an alt, I would get the best of both worlds).



No, it isn't a valid argument. They could have easily squeezed Alph in as a DLC clone if they just kept the other three clones as alts (since giving them any differences take more time than making them just alts, which was apparently a stage they were already at before making them clones). They could have even packaged him with Mewtwo in the Club Nintendo promotion, as a nice extra.

Dark Pit is one my mains now, but because of him I also main Pit. Even so, I really hope that they can just slightly made soem adjustments on clone characters, maybe like giving Dark Pit different jabs,tilts, or even just a different finishing jab can make him slightly stand out.

Dr.Mario is really just a simply "bring back" from Melee. All of his attacks are the same except just have Mario's original D special. Which even works the same as in Melee. And he's even the same guy, he is Mario. And even more ironically, his final Smash works the same as Mario's too.

Lucina I still think is a bit roster waste, if they can give her different movesets it would be great, but eventually give her same movesets as Marth I don't really think she is worth of being in. And it's weird enough that Sakurai said he can't add Chrom because there are too many sword fighters, while he still puts Lucina and in the game (Wait, or is it that he choose Robin over Chrom? In that case, I don't really get why Sakurai want to Lucina as an alt but then sudden;t make her as an individual character, where the time constraints issue?). It's already too many if you put Chrom, Lucina, and Robin. I think they made Roy perfectly because he has many moves that stands out Lucina and Marth, even though I had used Roy for a while now, I still found my self a bit clumsy when using Marth and Lucina.

All in all, I don't really think this clone issue should be overargued since we really can't do anything about it. Lucina, Dark Pit, Dr.Mario are still welcome to join Smash Bros, but not everyone agrees them to be total clones. A bit refining of their small jabs or moves can make a total difference.

 

[TeddyBearYoshi]

I like how most people are complaining about Dark Pit YET most of you use him anyways. Besides, Sakurai said they took almost no time to make. No Harm done so stop complaining.

...People use Dark Pit?

 

[gyasim]

Except the design document is from very, very early in development, meaning everything was subject to change.

Saying "you would feel this way" is not a good debating tactic, by the way. Stop doing that. You don't know me or how I think, let alone how I would hypothetically react to something. I would still prefer Alph as a clone, even if he played overly similarly, on the basis he looks very different to Olimar, while we have a clone that LITERALLY is the same person as the original in a different outfit, a clone who is canonically a clone and by design is just a recolour (in fact, Dark Pit's design was based on a colour swap for Pit in Brawl), and a clone that by design, is a genderbent Marth.



It isn't poor reasoning considering how extreme these clones are - if they were more akin to Toon Link and Lucas, it would be a different story. But making Dark Pit have the same animations as Pit, only with way better properties, is a slap in the face to Pit fans. Making Dark Pit much worse is a slap in the face to Dark Pit fans. Making them both identical through an alt costume, pleases both.

And saying "you feel this way" isn't a good argument either. This is another reason why I doubt you are reading all of my posts. I've said repeatedly that I don't like Dark Pit and Lucina or any Smash clone. You don't know me either despite my main points being clear.

And "at least they look different" is just straight up terrible. Lucina is shorter, female, has longer hair. Yes her and Marth look very similar, but Alph and Olimar look similar as well. Wearing the same clothing and being the same height with different faces and hair. And if looking different is a good reason to add a clone in, I am glad you're not a game developer.

These are very early documents, that is true, but what makes you think Alph would be differentiated from Olimar if the characters that actually ended up in game weren't?

Be honest with me, do you want Alph because you just want to criticize the decisions the dev team made because that gives you joy? Or do you legitamitley think your appearance, and early concept points you haphazardly made are valid?

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

The same people here who claim "oh Alph could have been so cool or unique screw all other clones!!!1" are ones I've seen bash Roy despite being one of the most fundamentally unique clones to begin with and getting really nice semi-clone treatment in his return.

 

[mario123007]

...People use Dark Pit?

Yep, right here lol.

 

[ChikoLad]

And saying "you feel this way" isn't a good argument either. This is another reason why I doubt you are reading all of my posts. I've said repeatedly that I don't like Dark Pit and Lucina or any Smash clone. You don't know me either despite my main points being clear.

And "at least they look different" is just straight up terrible. Lucina is shorter, female, has longer hair. Yes her and Marth look very similar, but Alph and Olimar look similar as well. Wearing the same clothing and being the same height with different faces and hair. And if looking different is a good reason to add a clone in, I am glad you're not a game developer.

These are very early documents, that is true, but what makes you think Alph would be differentiated from Olimar if the characters that actually ended up in game weren't?

Be honest with me, do you want Alph because you just want to criticize the decisions the dev team made because that gives you joy? Or do you legitamitley think your appearance, and early concept points you haphazardly made are valid?

I'm not continuing to argue with as you are blatantly posting words in my mouth at this point and generally just rambling on with "you're wrong because I say so" comments.

But I will quote a post I made earlier today, since you seem to think I have it out for Sakurai (once again, you assuming you know how I feel, which is resulting in you trying to effectively interrogate me):

“Mr. Iwata’s world is gone, leaving a massive impression on those around him. Yet, even so, our world continues.
I will not mourn or fall into depression. I will continue to do my work as best as I can. All I can offer is that I complete that which I have to do.”

“However, even for other people, Mr. Iwata’s presence was too great to simply call him a character in the story of life.”

“The smiling face of Mr. Iwata surrounded by flowers was a very nice picture.”

— Masahiro Sakurai on attending Iwata’s funeral in his Famitsu column

You are wrong if you hate a man this compassionate and steadfast.

http://smashboards.com/threads/why-is-everyone-hating-on-sakurai.412012/

I will also link you to a Tumblr blog dedicated to appreciating Sakurai, that I was the very first follower of.

 

[Bowserlick]

Alph should of had Rock Pikmin as his Up B. He would have no lift and just plummet.

 

[RAzul]

T

Personally, if I were in charge of designing Alph as a clone, I'd do something like this...

-Alph would have Flying and Rock Pikmin in place of White and Purple ones.

-Flying Pikmin would take flight when thrown, and would home in on nearby enemies. However, they would be a little slower than other types of Pikmin. These Pikmin would be abnormally weak when used during regular attacks, but would also fly much farther than normal.

-Rock Pikmin wouldn't fly very far, and they wouldn't latch onto opponents, but they would meteor smash airborne enemies, bury grounded ones, and inflict high shield damage. When used during regular attacks, Rock Pikmin would be stronger than other types of Pikmin.

-Alph would also have a 1/10 chance of plucking a Yellow Pikmin holding a Bomb Rock, which would explode after a few seconds or after touching an opponent, causing the Bomb Rock to explode, killing the Yellow Pikmin and inflicting high damage and knockback on anyone within the vicinity of the explosion.

-Finally, Alph would have Dizzy Whistle as his default Down Special.

That was beautiful.

 

[mario123007]

Alph should of had Rock Pikmin as his Up B. He would have no lift and just plummet.

Did they mention they want Rock Pikmin as Alph's Up B? That will really be a bad idea.

 

[LancerStaff]

You know, there is nothing wrong with clones by principle, but the reason why people are bothered by Smash 4's is because they are blatantly worse versions of the original.

Dark Pit's only differences are that his Electroshock launches sideways rather than upwards (which can situationally be better than Pit's, but Pit's is better most of the time), his arrows do 1% more damage uncharged (2% more fully charged), but can barely be directed, and his F-Tilt does significantly less knockback. These are just blatant downgrades from Pit, and add absolutely nothing to him. He has no "niche". He would have been better off as an alt.

Lucina I've already gone into, and once again, I think she doesn't successfully fill her niche. Would have been better as an alt.

Dr. Mario, while having a substantial amount of changes and has one or two minor things that are better about him, only ends up as a much worse Mario. A Mario that only benefits from playing defensively. Mario, on the other hand, can do that BETTER than the Doctor, while also being very efficient at a whole lot more. He would have added more as an alt (for me personally, Mario is my third main, but I prefer Dr. Mario's aesthetics. I hate how Dr. Mario plays though, so I don't play as him. If he were an alt, I would get the best of both worlds).



No, it isn't a valid argument. They could have easily squeezed Alph in as a DLC clone if they just kept the other three clones as alts (since giving them any differences take more time than making them just alts, which was apparently a stage they were already at before making them clones). They could have even packaged him with Mewtwo in the Club Nintendo promotion, as a nice extra.

Dark Pit is worse, but nowhere near as bad as you say. His biggest difference is the Electroshock Arm, which is actually most effective offstage. Most characters can't recover if they're hit by it, and no recovery beats it out. There's some serious risk and reward just because of an angle change. Ftilt can jablock, which is a pretty big thing when all you're losing is a situational kill move. Arrows need a buff, but there's plenty of ways to buff them without putting Pit out of a job. Make them slower for trapping, make them pierce projectiles so they're more effective, give them more knockback so they're more rewarding offstage... There's tons of different angles.

 

[The Light Music Club]

LOL at the salt for Dark Pit and Lucina, like legit we would've gotten them anyway, they were so fast to make.

 

[Digital Hazard]

I actually would've liked that... and we all know most of the people here that say ">*insert any clone here*" would've actually whinned.

 

[Snagrio]

Welp, I'm extremely ticked off.

 

[TaichiYaegashi]

All of this Dark Pit and Lucina salt (Dr. Mario to a lesser extent)...

We would have gotten them either way.

Hell, them being fancy alt costumes instead would ONLY likely mean they wouldn't get their own slot on the character select screen, that's it. If that is what bothers some or most people about them...just wow...


I bet that if Alph would have made it as his own slot on the character select screen, the people saying they wish it would have happened would be ******** about that too.

 

[Delzethin]

Wait, hold up, wait a minute. Before we jump to conclusions, to what extent were they considering making Alph a clone? He might've just been in the mix with the other alts and they might've only had time to make three.