Sonic's new moves in smash 4

[Deleted member 245254]

slow sonic down i cant tell you how many times i have killed myself

 

[Gombukelp]

We have hardly discussed Sonic's throws and tilt attacks. What are your favorite ways of using these two mechanics for combo setups and finishers? And in what ways do you guys hope that they will improve for Smash 4?

 

[Tornado_Man]

We have hardly discussed Sonic's throws and tilt attacks. What are your favorite ways of using these two mechanics for combo setups and finishers? And in what ways do you guys hope that they will improve for Smash 4?

I've always used his upthrow to start combos. To be honest I think his grabs and throws were perfectly fine. His uptilt should change though, I could never find use for it, unlike his dtilt and ftilt. Maybe it could be changed to an electric shield, he hops in the air with a little spark, making the sound effect from Sonic 3. His dtilt is great for getting the opponent off the ground, and don't hold me to this, but I think back in the Sonic trailer in October it seemed strengthened. I can't confirm this, but I think it knocked Luigi in the air a bit higher than it did in Brawl. We haven't seen his ftilt as far I'm aware, so I can't say anything regarding that, but I thought the move was fine, if anything needed a slight buff.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I've been focusing primarily on Brawl Sonic lately, so now I feel comfortable contributing. I got in to Sonic through Project M and I'm quite reasonable there but my Brawl Sonic training has been substantially more difficult as I am primarily coming from playing mostly Melee. I've watched all of the Espy videos I can find (more than once each) and spent a fair bit of time fighting a combination of both friends for competitive adaptation and 9s for combo string practice on aggressive foes.

His throws are pretty effective as-is mostly because he has great follow-up potential, his aerials are quite good in the right hands. His down and up tilts actually set up aerial combos quite well.

My main issue with Sonic right now is spacing. His moves are almost unilaterally close range, and sometimes I find it difficult to be aggressive without taking too much damage from my opponent, when I am at high % I tend to spam spin dash and prey I inflict as much damage as possible because I'm too afraid to approach otherwise.

His 3-step standing neutral is amazing. The kick has a great push and it's amazing for creating some breathing room when you have barely any frames to think of an attack.

His homing attack is just balls, it has a horrible lag both initiating and ending, made worse if you connect with something, it's AI is atrocious and I only find myself using it for fake-outs or countering edge guards. This attack needs buffed so bad, I think.

They really need to differentiate his spin dash from his side-b more. Project M did an amazing job with this move, adding a rolling slide kick if you choose to hit the right input. You can get punished for whiffing it but it is a wonderful move that really sets side-b apart from basic spin dash and I really hope that they tweak side-b in Smash 4 as well.

 

[Gombukelp]

My main uses for the throws

Uthrow: This is the throw that I use the most to start combos with. Uthrow to Uair is a very reliable setup and is very good for killing of opponents through the ceiling at high percentages.

Dthrow: Is great for tech chasing.

Fthrow: I never use it.

Bthrow: Is ok but It needs more horizontal knockback imo. It's used rarely by me.

My main uses for the tilts

Utilt: Works ok-ish as a follow up after a Uthrow at low percentages or Dtilt. It has a bit of a delay after using it though which is unfortunate because the delay makes it harder to follow up with an effective attack in the air afterwards. Sonic kinda lingers for a few frames. The reach could be improved aswell.

Dtilt: Works very good as a setup for Fsmashes with percentages at about 20% - 50%, depending on the falling speed of the opponent. This setup is more effective on fast fallers when they are at even higher percentages.

The only problem I have with the Dtilt is that Sonic slides forward a bit every time he uses it. They should remove the slide and increase the range instead. Putting a hitbox behind him as he swipes around would also be a nice addition.

Ftilt: Is a good attack for the reasons stated above by Zipzo. Good for getting out of sticky situations. Needs more knockback though.

 

[Ultinarok]

Sonic needs to be decloned. Most of his standards are just lazy rehashes of other fighters. Up tilt is Falcon USmash, SSmash is similar to Wario STilt, Uair is similar to Wolf USmash, Fair is Falco Fair, Bair and Dair are ZSS Bair and Dair, etc. Would be nice to try some more variety, however hard that would be. Also, more speed or power in his set. He lacks power on his fast moves and speed on his strong ones. And please change the voice actor...

 

[Twewy]

Griffith's already been changed to Roger Craig Smith, judging from Sonic's trailer. And you do know a good chunk of his moveset is inspired by Sonic the Fighters and Virtua Fighter, right?

 

[Ultinarok]

Griffith's already been changed to Roger Craig Smith, judging from Sonic's trailer. And you do know a good chunk of his moveset is inspired by Sonic the Fighters and Virtura Fighter, right?

I suppose. He still felt kind of tacked on at the last second. A lot of his moves didn't feel "Sonic" enough.

 

[Twewy]

He was literally tacked on at the last second, though.

 

[Ultinarok]

He was literally tacked on at the last second, though.

Exactly, and he felt like it too. His throws and recovery are innovative enough, but I STILL don't know the difference between his side b and down b other than that one can be charged, and again, his standards are sort of copy pasted hybrids of other fighters.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Exactly, and he felt like it too. His throws and recovery are innovative enough, but I STILL don't know the difference between his side b and down b other than that one can be charged, and again, his standards are sort of copy pasted hybrids of other fighters.

There are many differences between them, but it's true they could have fused the best of both attacks to make one single bigger and badder spindash.

I just don't like the idea of boosting, though. But if Side+B were to be Sonic Battle's SONIC DRIVE, then I'm all for it.

I am a big fan of Sonic the Fighters, but ideally, a mix between Fighters and Battle would've created the ultimate Smash Bros Sonic to me.

Regardless, I'm cool with how he turned out.

 

[Twewy]

Project M Sonic made me feel things about hedgehogs I never felt before.

 

[Gombukelp]

Project M Sonic made me feel things about hedgehogs I never felt before.

I haven't even had the chance to try Project M Sonic yet. Curse you PAL!

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic's PM moveset is less stylized and unique, in my opinion. Brawl's set feels more committed to maintaining Sonic's personality from Sonic 1-Sonic Adventure 2, and I love it for that. For a far more objective reason, I also despise the pandering the PMBR did with developing Sonic's moveset in their mod.

I haven't really read most of this thread, but the differences between Brawl sideB and downB are so ridiculously vast and expansive that I can't imagine a Smash game where one is utterly removed. He is so effective and versatile in Brawl because of the applications of both spins, and it'd be criminal for Sakurai and co to gut one just because they look the same.

It also helps that because they look similar to an outsider looking in, that it only makes Sonic that much more effective. Some players still can't tell the different between dash attack, dsmash, and the two respective spins.

In any case, what has me the most intrigued is whether or not spinshotting is retained, and the qualities of the sideB shown in the Smash Direct, since the initial hop was completely different from the Brawl version that was shown in the Smash 4 Sonic trailer.

There's a Smash 4 demo in my town, so if Sonic's playable, rest assured I'm playing the crap out of him.

 

[ShadowLink84]

New and Exciting.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Sonic's PM moveset is less stylized and unique...

All of this.

I really hate PM Sonic. The only move from PM I would give Sonic was his Fair... But now that SSB4 Sonic has a spike move anyway, I no longer need it.

This is why I'm so excited to see Sonic return as he was, only buffed.

 

[infomon]

be honest gais and gallies

we would all main sonic the werehog

 

[Espy Rose]

The only thing I love from PM Sonic are his poses after a homing attack.

 

[Twewy]

I dunno, his little breakdance move seemed pretty SA2.

 

[ShadowLink84]

be honest gais and gallies

we would all main sonic the werehog

I would make a video of him being falcon punched constantly.

 

[Tornado_Man]

I would make a video of him being falcon punched constantly.

and finish it with a KO Punch.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

What's Sonic's Up Tilt in Brawl? I haven't played in Brawl in the long time.

I guess you can say that Sonic was the one who stepped it up.

 

[Tornado_Man]

What's Sonic's Up Tilt in Brawl? I haven't played in Brawl in the long time.

I guess you can say that Sonic was the one who stepped it up.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Oh, yeah, that was one of my favorite moves.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I never really found much use for his tilts outside of Ftilt.
Dtilt combos at low percents ninto Utilt but has that awkward percentage where you get naired in the face for doing it.

 

[Gombukelp]

Oh, yeah, that was one of my favorite moves.

It has to much ending lag though which is unfortunate. Hoping that they removed that.

 

[Espy Rose]

Utilt was amazing. It pokes through BF/SV platforms, chains guaranteed from uair1, and is deliciously disjointed enough to trade with plenty of aerials.
I love it. PM utilt sucks.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Aside from the forward bounce on initiation can you tell me what exactly is the vast difference between down and side b?

I'm hoping for an actual mechanical feature, not "cuz mind games" because that doesn't count as the moves literally being very different from one another.

I ask this out of complete earnest curiosity.

 

[Espy Rose]

There's a nice TL;DR at the bottom of this post.

Where to start...

First thing's first, for the sake of ease, downB is the spin charge (SC), and sideB is the spin dash (SD). if I squeeze an "A/a" into the phrases, that means "aerial." A "C/c" means "cancel."

While on the ground, SC and SD differ on a very basic level. SC requires multiple inputs of B to increase its speed, while SD only requires the B button to be held down. SD pulls Sonic back a bit (useful to avoid attacks in the same way that fsmash does) until a fixed point at the apex of the charge. SD, upon release, creates a tiny hop that has its own hitbox before hitting the ground. This hop animation makes Sonic almost completely invincible, allowing him to cut through an incredibly large majority of opponent attacks. Fully charged, max aura Lucario spheres can even be passed through with complete immunity with this spin because of this property, and it's something that's entirely unique to SD.

When SD hits the ground from landing, it turns into SC, retaining all properties that a SC has upon release.

SD and SC also share the same stale move counter, so landing a SC will cause SD to lose damage/knockback if it connects upon landing at any point in time.

SC's charge differs from SD in that you can release it any time after you've input a single charge, and the box will be out immediately. SD CANNOT be instantly released as fast as SC can, which makes SC a faster tool for catching an opponent during an attack's cooldown frames. Since it also doesn't include the slow hop from the beginning, it covers ground much faster than a SD can, which only further enunciates my previous point.

SC cannot be pivoted on the ground or in the air. SD can.

SC also cannot be shield cancelled on the ground. SD can. This gives SD another layer of protection. Atop the invincibility you gain from the hop, you can cancel the spin into shield any time before it's fully charged in order to cancel the animation and put Sonic in his shield. This allows for easy powershields, baits and switches, and mixup opportunities that make Sonic such a fierce character.

Anecdotal evidence from personal experience: SDC > shield drop > dash > grab. You'd be surprised how effective this is.

A vertical SC is when you jump during the charging time for the SC. You retain your hitbox while jumping straight up into the air. Good for anti air against approaching opponents from above, as well as an extra means to cancel out the spin and get into the air asap. It also retains your second jump (which is very important with spin management, as I will explain below in a short aside:

There is a bug in Brawl that doesn't give Sonic back his double jump after doing a spin unless he resets it with another jump. This means that if you double jump, spin, and land without jumping, the next time you jump, your double jump is still technically gone, eliminating a proper option in any given scenario.

SC and SD can both be vertical'd, but the SC retains a hitbox, while the SD just goes into a regular jump animation.

One final quip about grounded SD: If you do it on an upward slope, you retain the hop invincibility while moving on the ground as a SC, meaning that you have a top of priority. Disjoints and certain damaging moves are the only things that can hurt Sonic out of this. If the slope ends without a ground to spin on, Sonic spins in a straight line in the air at the height of the apex of the ledge you spun off of. Hitting anything while airborne makes you warp.

=====

In the air, oh man...

SD in the air still has invincibility on hop, as well as the hop's hitbox, but doesn't regain a hitbox until it lands and turns into a SC.
SC in the air resets its hitbox constantly. Holding forward on a SC in the air and on the ground allows you to land multiple hits on character or their shield, leading into high damage combos.

Both can be DI'd in the air after release, allowing you to pull back after the initial firing of the spins.

While charging SC in the air, you can actually willingly move around left and right during the charge by holding a diagonal downward direction. It's a neat trick, and handy for positioning a spin back on stage.

Momentum canceling is an excellent tool for surviving in Brawl, and Sonic's spins both cancel all of his momentum upon release. Even then, they share a bit of differences:

ASD takes 2 frames longer to release than ASC, and upon the initial hop, pulls Sonic back a tad if he has backwards momentum, meaning you can easily get sucked into a blast zone if you just hit SD. However, all you have to do is do the SD and let go of the B button, and Sonic will spin as soon as he's available.

ASC requires a single input of B, and requires player knowledge and timing on when to release it at the first possible frame after the charge. It starts earlier than ASD, and does not pull Sonic back at all, effectively making this a stronger version of G&W's bucket braking (or would, if it was also one frame). It's the better of the two for surviving, but relies solely on how good the player is at the timing of the spins. Far more reserves for Sonic vets.

There's an AT (P:M Sonic has it too) called spinshotting that launches Sonic super far in his double jump by carrying over his momentum from a spin's launch. This is done by jumping immediately after a release of either ASC, or ASD.

ASC is easier to do, as all it takes is a single charge, plus hitting down on the c-stick to launch. ASD requires you to either time the attack or jump actions at the moment of its release. As long as a player can do one of these consistently, there's no real difference. The only tiny difference is that you can pivot spinshot with ASD over ASC.

The BIGGEST difference however, is that ASC can be shield cancelled on landing. ASD cannot. ASD must land first to become a SC, then must fall off a platform again before being able to be shield cancelled (since it'll be a SC after that point, giving it that property). This gives Sonic incredible mixup options from the air against opponents. ASCC > grab upon landing is a classic Sonic tactic.

This part applies for both ASCC and SDC. With fast enough reaction times, you can jump, roll, spotdodge, grab, or even usmash (it has invincibility on startup too!) fast enough for the shield to never visibly pop up, meaning that Sonic will instantly cancel his spin into the animation you wish.

=====

There's a few more mechanics that I didn't bother mentioning, since those are heavily negligible or trivial (canceling all momentum from spins on the ground from an edge), but there's also a few that I just don't have the patience at the moment to explain (dropping through platforms with spin cancels, combo strings from both SC and SD).

Just see all of the above. That should be plenty of evidence for why the designs for Spin Charge and Spin Dash are so goddamn brilliant.

This is also a perfect example for why Sonic's P:M spins are so much **** by comparison. The PMBR could only dream of creating a working system of spins so detailed and awesome.



If you want nice pictures and stuff, go here: http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...nic-have-a-quick-question-ask-it-here.201103/

It's the very first question asked, and answered in a much more structured format than the above.

 

[Tenchi Boom]

I think all of Sonic's moves were fine, just sort out his down/forward B and he'd be less annoying and repetitive to hear and see.

I wonder how Roger has made his "UR TUO SLUW" taunt sound? It wa Jason Griffith's terrible voice acting that made it hilarious last time.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

There's a nice TL;DR at the bottom of this post.

Where to start...

First thing's first, for the sake of ease, downB is the spin charge (SC), and sideB is the spin dash (SD). if I squeeze an "A/a" into the phrases, that means "aerial." A "C/c" means "cancel."

While on the ground, SC and SD differ on a very basic level. SC requires multiple inputs of B to increase its speed, while SD only requires the B button to be held down. SD pulls Sonic back a bit (useful to avoid attacks in the same way that fsmash does) until a fixed point at the apex of the charge. SD, upon release, creates a tiny hop that has its own hitbox before hitting the ground. This hop animation makes Sonic almost completely invincible, allowing him to cut through an incredibly large majority of opponent attacks. Fully charged, max aura Lucario spheres can even be passed through with complete immunity with this spin because of this property, and it's something that's entirely unique to SD.

When SD hits the ground from landing, it turns into SC, retaining all properties that a SC has upon release.

SD and SC also share the same stale move counter, so landing a SC will cause SD to lose damage/knockback if it connects upon landing at any point in time.

SC's charge differs from SD in that you can release it any time after you've input a single charge, and the box will be out immediately. SD CANNOT be instantly released as fast as SC can, which makes SC a faster tool for catching an opponent during an attack's cooldown frames. Since it also doesn't include the slow hop from the beginning, it covers ground much faster than a SD can, which only further enunciates my previous point.

SC cannot be pivoted on the ground or in the air. SD can.

SC also cannot be shield cancelled on the ground. SD can. This gives SD another layer of protection. Atop the invincibility you gain from the hop, you can cancel the spin into shield any time before it's fully charged in order to cancel the animation and put Sonic in his shield. This allows for easy powershields, baits and switches, and mixup opportunities that make Sonic such a fierce character.

Anecdotal evidence from personal experience: SDC > shield drop > dash > grab. You'd be surprised how effective this is.

A vertical SC is when you jump during the charging time for the SC. You retain your hitbox while jumping straight up into the air. Good for anti air against approaching opponents from above, as well as an extra means to cancel out the spin and get into the air asap. It also retains your second jump (which is very important with spin management, as I will explain below in a short aside:

There is a bug in Brawl that doesn't give Sonic back his double jump after doing a spin unless he resets it with another jump. This means that if you double jump, spin, and land without jumping, the next time you jump, your double jump is still technically gone, eliminating a proper option in any given scenario.

SC and SD can both be vertical'd, but the SC retains a hitbox, while the SD just goes into a regular jump animation.

One final quip about grounded SD: If you do it on an upward slope, you retain the hop invincibility while moving on the ground as a SC, meaning that you have a top of priority. Disjoints and certain damaging moves are the only things that can hurt Sonic out of this. If the slope ends without a ground to spin on, Sonic spins in a straight line in the air at the height of the apex of the ledge you spun off of. Hitting anything while airborne makes you warp.

=====

In the air, oh man...

SD in the air still has invincibility on hop, as well as the hop's hitbox, but doesn't regain a hitbox until it lands and turns into a SC.
SC in the air resets its hitbox constantly. Holding forward on a SC in the air and on the ground allows you to land multiple hits on character or their shield, leading into high damage combos.

Both can be DI'd in the air after release, allowing you to pull back after the initial firing of the spins.

While charging SC in the air, you can actually willingly move around left and right during the charge by holding a diagonal downward direction. It's a neat trick, and handy for positioning a spin back on stage.

Momentum canceling is an excellent tool for surviving in Brawl, and Sonic's spins both cancel all of his momentum upon release. Even then, they share a bit of differences:

ASD takes 2 frames longer to release than ASC, and upon the initial hop, pulls Sonic back a tad if he has backwards momentum, meaning you can easily get sucked into a blast zone if you just hit SD. However, all you have to do is do the SD and let go of the B button, and Sonic will spin as soon as he's available.

ASC requires a single input of B, and requires player knowledge and timing on when to release it at the first possible frame after the charge. It starts earlier than ASD, and does not pull Sonic back at all, effectively making this a stronger version of G&W's bucket braking (or would, if it was also one frame). It's the better of the two for surviving, but relies solely on how good the player is at the timing of the spins. Far more reserves for Sonic vets.

There's an AT (P:M Sonic has it too) called spinshotting that launches Sonic super far in his double jump by carrying over his momentum from a spin's launch. This is done by jumping immediately after a release of either ASC, or ASD.

ASC is easier to do, as all it takes is a single charge, plus hitting down on the c-stick to launch. ASD requires you to either time the attack or jump actions at the moment of its release. As long as a player can do one of these consistently, there's no real difference. The only tiny difference is that you can pivot spinshot with ASD over ASC.

The BIGGEST difference however, is that ASC can be shield cancelled on landing. ASD cannot. ASD must land first to become a SC, then must fall off a platform again before being able to be shield cancelled (since it'll be a SC after that point, giving it that property). This gives Sonic incredible mixup options from the air against opponents. ASCC > grab upon landing is a classic Sonic tactic.

This part applies for both ASCC and SDC. With fast enough reaction times, you can jump, roll, spotdodge, grab, or even usmash (it has invincibility on startup too!) fast enough for the shield to never visibly pop up, meaning that Sonic will instantly cancel his spin into the animation you wish.

=====

There's a few more mechanics that I didn't bother mentioning, since those are heavily negligible or trivial (canceling all momentum from spins on the ground from an edge), but there's also a few that I just don't have the patience at the moment to explain (dropping through platforms with spin cancels, combo strings from both SC and SD).

Just see all of the above. That should be plenty of evidence for why the designs for Spin Charge and Spin Dash are so goddamn brilliant.

This is also a perfect example for why Sonic's P:M spins are so much **** by comparison. The PMBR could only dream of creating a working system of spins so detailed and awesome.



If you want nice pictures and stuff, go here: http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...nic-have-a-quick-question-ask-it-here.201103/

It's the very first question asked, and answered in a much more structured format than the above.

As much as I appreciate you writing this, I'll have to get back to you in 2 days when I finally finish reading/understanding most of it.

 

[shinhed-echi]

@Espy
That was very in-depth. There are even things I didn't know about, thanks!

Just one thing bugs me.

Spin Dash should be Down+B because it functions pretty much the same as in the classic games. XD

But that aside, very useful!

 

[Espy Rose]

Echi, you need to reread the old Sonic manuals for Sonic 1.
Sonic's Spin Dash is the run + press down from Sonic 1.

Spin Charge has always been down + tap jump.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Echi, you need to reread the old Sonic manuals for Sonic 1.
Sonic's Spin Dash is the run + press down from Sonic 1.

Spin Charge has always been down + tap jump.

I KNEW I wasn't crazy when I told fellow Sonic fans that what people call "rolling", it was actually called spindash, and what everyone considered spindash... well, I read somewhere it was actually called the SUPER Spindash (but now it's apparently spin charge).

I'm rusty on my Sonic knowledge.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[BlitznBurst]

Echi, you need to reread the old Sonic manuals for Sonic 1.
Sonic's Spin Dash is the run + press down from Sonic 1.

Spin Charge has always been down + tap jump.

I'm pretty sure the roll from Sonic 1 was just "spin attack" actually

But then I don't read manuals ever so eh

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Echi, you need to reread the old Sonic manuals for Sonic 1.
Sonic's Spin Dash is the run + press down from Sonic 1.

Spin Charge has always been down + tap jump.

Seems like you need to actually...

It was actually called the "Super Sonic Spin Attack" in the English manual.

The hold down + charge was called the "Super Dash Attack" in Sonic the Hedgehog 2 when it was first used in the games, and they changed the former to just "Super Spin Attack".

In the JP manual for Sonic The Hedgehog 2, the down + charge attack is called the "Super Spin Dash", which is likely why most know the charging mechanism to be associated with the words "spin dash" today.

 

[Espy Rose]

Fair play, sir.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Guess it's time to head to Sonicretro, they uploaded the manuals.

Anyway, I've pretty much gotten used to calling Down+B Spindash.
And since the rest of the Sonic Community calls the action to press Down while running to roll, ROLLING, I have adopted that term as well.

 

[Twewy]

I call it the "Spinner-ino Dashdiddly Neighborino".

 

[infomon]

Aside from the forward bounce on initiation can you tell me what exactly is the vast difference between down and side b?

I'm hoping for an actual mechanical feature, not "cuz mind games" because that doesn't count as the moves literally being very different from one another.

I ask this out of complete earnest curiosity.

woohoo!!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ34M-Bdo6k