Sonic vs Sheik

[ShadowLink84]

We've been discussing the matchup between Sonic and Sheik and we really need input from the Sheik forum primarily since most Sonicusers haven't played Sheiks of a high level.

Currently we believe that the matchup is around 60:40 to 65:35.
This is primarily because of the fact that Sheik is very capable at fending off Sonic.

Needles are a good method of forcing Sonic to approach and are good at limiting his behavior.
It can also be difficult to gimp her due to her ^B.
I am not too sure on how affective her tether would be since I usually drop a spring at the edge to deal with the tether.
DownB is beast.

Her chain is great at fending off Sonic's approaches especially with a platform overhead which eliminates spring drops.

I'll refrain from saying anything about Sonic's options against her until I get input since I am rather unsure about them.

 

[Blistering Speed]

F Tilt>Sonic. Overswarm would be proud.

 

[Tristan_win]

I demand a link to the thread of discussion so I wouldn't have to click back twice, then click the Sonic forum, then find the thread of interested, and then finally writing up a response.

Which would be worded much better then what I just wrote.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I'm not sure whether it's the fact that Sheik is awesome or Sonic is just terrible. Needles are your friend in this matchup. It stops 99% of Sonic's dash approaches. Too bad Sonic is slower than mud while in the air.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I'm not sure whether it's the fact that Sheik is awesome or Sonic is just terrible. Needles are your friend in this matchup. It stops 99% of Sonic's dash approaches. Too bad Sonic is slower than mud while in the air.

Needles don't stop all of his approaches Buzz. I have yet to see a Sheik stop Sonic with needles.
in fact, tenki played Ryoko's Sheik and from the information he provided, the needles were far from stopping all of Sonics approaches.
they don't stop them.

They are good in that they limit his options but

And you do know that Sonic can just cancel his dash at anytime into a shield at anytime.

As for moving slow in the air you are referring to his mobility.
Speed wise Sonic has the 6th fastest air speed (tied with DK).
Its when he tries to turn in midair which is an acceleration issue.

I'll get a link up in a moment since greenstreet who was in charge hasn't done anything with the thread as of late.


Edit: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210168
I made a new thread instead of linking to the discussion since it will keep things more ordered.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Needles don't stop all of his approaches Buzz. I have yet to see a Sheik stop Sonic with needles.
in fact, tenki played Ryoko's Sheik and from the information he provided, the needles were far from stopping all of Sonics approaches.
they don't stop them.

*facepalm*

Needles stop 99% of this dash approaches. I made a point of inserting that word.

They are good in that they limit his options but

And you do know that Sonic can just cancel his dash at anytime into a shield at anytime

That still stops the approach. >_>

 

[Tenki]

lol I saw "Buzz" under the Sonic vs Sheik thread and thought it got locked >_>
<_<

That still stops the approach. >_>

I must have a really skewed idea of approaching, but as long as I'm not knocked off balance (getting hit), I don't really feel like my approach has been stopped, lol

like, if I'm running towards you (not necessarily Sheik), shield a projectile, and still be able to 'statistically' reach you in ending lag, I'd still consider that a successful approach.

edit:
...yeah, I think I have a really skewed idea of approaching ;__;

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I must have a really skewed idea of approaching, but as long as I'm not knocked off balance (getting hit), I don't really feel like my approach has been stopped, lol

So, you've discovered how to move forward while shielding needles?

My point is that immediately, the attempted dash attack or dash grab is brought to a halt.

 

[Tenki]

So, you've discovered how to move forward while shielding needles?

My point is that immediately, the attempted dash attack or dash grab is brought to a halt.

oh, okay.

Sonic gets a slight slide while shielding if he's running at somewhere near phase 4-5 dash (near full speed//cbb'd to find that thread the guy made about dash phases). It's usually enough to keep shielding past 1-2 quick attacks, but if you have more than those out, then nope.



But conversely, can Sheik move while the projectiles are out/as soon as the last one is thrown? Like, Mario and Peach can go ahead and do stuff like grab or retreat, move, etc while their projectile is out.

Otherwise, we'd still be in a neutral state with not much changed, momentum-wise, except distance.

note: I may say some wrong things since I haven't played against a Sheik in a while and I don't have a wii to play with until the end of this week <3

 

[ShadowLink84]

*facepalm*

Needles stop 99% of this dash approaches. I made a point of inserting that word.

I wanted to address all aspects hence why I addressed the dahsing issue later.

That still stops the approach. >_>

If we are speaking literally where he has to shield then every projectile stops every approach when they force the opponent to shield.
Which is just silly since it ignores the bigger picture.

You can't sit there and needle all day because of the distance Sonic can cross between needles. You either fire more needles and allow Sonic to get closer or you fire less to shorten the interval allowing him to dash more often.

@tenki She can move once the last needle has crossed roughly 3/4ths of FD.

So, you've discovered how to move forward while shielding needles?
My point is that immediately, the attempted dash attack or dash grab is brought to a halt.

Except we are approaching we haven't decided whether or not to perform a dash attack or dash grab. We can just as easily use a tilt. We are approaching in general. Its not like you are facing Fox who when approaching is extremely limited or is committed in the approach.

 

[Zankoku]

It's not really an "attempted dash attack" if he dashes forward with the intent of shielding your projectile >_>

Sonic runs fast and is annoying to land a final killing blow on. He gets ftilt locked like a champion, though. Priority, priority... well, it seems we're more or less even here, with Sheik possessing better lasting attacks (nair, bair) and Sonic able to land hits in with his precision hits (bair, among others). Chain makes things a living hell for Sonic, from what I hear.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

@ShadowLink84 -- So... you've gone from failing to refute my point (by pretending I said something else entirely) to assuming that I just sit and throw needles all day. Just take my statement at face value. Don't try to read into it like there is some deeper meaning in how I play. I was simply pointing out how limited Sonic's options are.

Seeing as how Sonic doesn't even really have any projectiles, I'd say Sheik has all the advantage she needs.

 

[Zankoku]

Oh, I forgot to mention, I had tons of trouble with Sonic's spindashes until I remembered what Sheik's neutral B did, lolz.

 

[Blistering Speed]

You Sonic users are so...rabid. We're not used to your fast posting times around here, away with you!

And on the debate, I think Buzz is using the phrase 'stop an approach' a bit too literally. Sure, needles physically stop a Sonic whilst he shields, but the Sonic can continue the approach again straight after, which isn't really stopping the approach in my mind.

On the matchup:
Chain wrecks Sonic, he has to go round the back of Shiek to break through and I think he's got a decent amount of trouble even then, though I've never tried Spring on top.
Shiek won't get gimps but neither will Sonic which means high percentage kills, with in my experience Shiek killing before Sonic, not to mention racking quicker.
Spindash doesn't work too well thanks to said loverly needles.
Basically anything Sonic isn't limited with in this matchup, Shiek can do better.
65:35.
But all this is unimportant, because I can just stand there and D Tilt

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I'll be less literal next time.

Man, English is hard!

 

[ShadowLink84]

Oh, I forgot to mention, I had tons of trouble with Sonic's spindashes until I remembered what Sheik's neutral B did, lolz.

yeah I never understood that when I face Sheik users. Alot of the time they usually let me get away with things I normally wouldn't do.
I guess its cause of pressure and they just fall to their old habits.

@ShadowLink84 -- So... you've gone from failing to refute my point (by pretending I said something else entirely)

So I strawmanned you? Do clarify where I did please so I can correct myself.

to assuming that I just sit and throw needles all day.

Now you're strawmanning me since i never said you would be sitting there and throwing needles all day.
I provided an example showing why the needles don't necessarily stop Sonic as you stated thm to (which was in the literal sense so that was my error).

Just take my statement at face value. Don't try to read into it like there is some deeper meaning in how I play. I was simply pointing out how limited Sonic's options are.

*shrug* I am accounting for other things in case you bring them up.
Don't know its rather unusual when actually mean exactly what they say since most people usually intend something deeper.

Sonic isn't really limited perse. He isn't committed to his approaches since he can move from one method t the other due to his canceling ability.

Seeing as how Sonic doesn't even really have any projectiles, I'd say Sheik has all the advantage she needs.

Thats a poor argument.
You can just Dtilt and win dude.

 

[Tenki]

Oh, I forgot to mention, I had tons of trouble with Sonic's spindashes until I remembered what Sheik's neutral B did, lolz.

lol

needles > SDR ;o

Chain makes things a living hell for Sonic, from what I hear.

Perfect-chain camp under a nonmoving platform and yes

However, that's a technically high level thing.

Someone had seen me mention this chain>>Sonic thing and decided to try it out as a counterpick without even maining Sheik/Zelda and failed miserably.

You Sonic users are so...rabid. We're not used to your fast posting times around here, away with you!

...

But all this is unimportant, because I can just stand their and D Tilt

**MK's D-tilt ;o
-Overswarm.

possible edit to come.

 

[Zankoku]

Haha, yeah.

Me: *gets hit by fourth spindash in a row* ...Wait, what am I doing? *needle*
Anther: *gets hit out of spindash*
Me: I forgot I had this thing!
Anther: Oh no!

 

[ShadowLink84]

Direct SDR's are a no no in this match.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

i never said you would be sitting there and throwing needles all day.

Ummm... OK.

You can't sit there and needle all day

Wow! Incredible!

 

[Blistering Speed]

Seeing as how Sonic doesn't even really have any projectiles, I'd say Sheik has all the advantage she needs.

Agreed, it's why we have the advantage over MK....

I'll be less literal next time.

Man, English is hard!

Mod sarcasm is douchtacular.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ummm... OK.

Indeed

Wow! Incredible!

Ripping out of context is bad.
you know entirely what I meant concerning the needles.

My point is that immediately, the attempted dash attack or dash grab is brought to a halt.

So I am going to be dash attacking or dash grabbing you all the time right?
Can we move on rather than have a pissing contest?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Agreed, it's why we have the advantage over MK....

Yup... except MK has a billion other qualities that make up for that weakness. Sonic simply does not.

Mod sarcasm is douchtacular.

So, I have specify the "literality ranking" of everything I say? ... or are you being sarcastic?

@SL84 -- Why would you tell me I "can't throw needles all day" unless you were under the impression that that was my strategy? I didn't take your statement out of context. I used your own words against you. I made an accurate statement, and you refuted it with philosophical statements from the netherworlds of another dimension. Just accept that you read too deeply into it and move on. Stop trying to defend your crumbing position.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The internet ****** the tone of voice everywhere.
But buzz can you point out which weaknesses explicitly so that its easier to discuss? Or how Sheik exploits them?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Unfortunately, I have to study for my last final today. Otherwise, I would dump a large set of paragraphs into this discussion right now.

LOL @ the chain method. I'm going to use that on my Sonic friend this weekend.

 

[Tenki]

oye oye

How punishable is Sheik out of shield?

Specifically, F-tilt, U-tilt, N-air/B-air/F-air, needles, etc.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Unfortunately, I have to study for my last final today. Otherwise, I would dump a large set of paragraphs into this discussion right now.

LOL @ the chain method. I'm going to use that on my Sonic friend this weekend.

I await your discussion with bated breath.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I await your discussion with bated breath.

A captive audience! Most excellent!

I will say that I love fighting Sonic as Zelda, but that would probably lead to the wrong discussion for this topic.

 

[Tenki]

I personally think that Zelda takes a large part in the vs Sheik matchup, even though Sheik takes very little part in the Zelda matchup.

...if that makes any sense.

So if Zelda when opponent is 80%+ is relevant, I'd throw that in :<
--------------------------------

And for a repeat:

How punishable is Sheik out of shield? ;o

 

[Zankoku]

Sheik's dash attack is stupidly punishable on block, OR ON HIT at low %s. Her ftilt is omg fast and pretty much all you can do is shieldgrab it, though. And if you do that late then you get dsmashed. dtilt outranges most normal shieldgrabs and ends quickly enough to stop most other responses with a jab. If you're quick enough on reaction, you can shieldgrab between Sheik's second jab and rapid jabs. dsmash usually pushes too far away for a direct shieldgrab, but it's laggy enough that you can unshield and dash grab. Autocancelled nair goes directly into jab too quick to shieldgrab. Everything else is pretty much unsafe unless it's something like a wall of pain bair (rising advancing bair, retreat before landing)

 

[Blistering Speed]

*Edit* But Ank0ku outshines me yet again so ignore this.

Might as well not waste a post, is Shiek essentially untouchable with chain under a non moving platform by Sonic then? If so, every time Shiek get's the stage pick or randoms Battlefield or whatever (limiting Sonic stage choice severely in the bargain), the matchup is near impossible for Sonic?

 

[Tenki]

Not very in my mind. Shiek's will tilt a shield, which have little afterlag and IASA frame for funzies. Rapid jab, continous F Tilts, these things aren't easily punished.

Well, just for the sake of fair treatment, if we can assume that people will learn the MK matchup and learn to jump aerials ASAP OoS to punish F-airs and other MK aerials / times when there is little ending lag, I'm assuming that it's possible for both Sonic and Sheik users to be able to pull off such punishments as well.
like...
[spindash] (you shield) --> [instant aerial] < [instant B-air/N-air/U-air OoS]
[dash attack] (you shield) << [shield drop counterattack OoS]

Sheik's dash attack is stupidly punishable on block, OR ON HIT at low %s. Her ftilt is omg fast and pretty much all you can do is shieldgrab it, though. And if you do that late then you get dsmashed. dtilt outranges most normal shieldgrabs and ends quickly enough to stop most other responses with a jab. If you're quick enough on reaction, you can shieldgrab between Sheik's second jab and rapid jabs. dsmash usually pushes too far away for a direct shieldgrab, but it's laggy enough that you can unshield and dash grab. Autocancelled nair goes directly into jab too quick to shieldgrab. Everything else is pretty much unsafe unless it's something like a wall of pain bair (rising advancing bair, retreat before landing)

Thanks for the other info ;o

I was wondering about the N-air thing though. If the shield was tilted upwards (neutralize the hit) and the grab started as you were still in the air, would it still grab you?

:random:

 

[Zankoku]

Of course. Nothing is (completely) safe on block in Brawl, except maybe ZSS' dsmash.

 

[Anther]

Why isn't sonic allowed to shield dash into the chain and then roll behind?! I'd picture that getting around the attack.

 

[Tenki]

Why isn't sonic allowed to shield dash into the chain and then roll behind?! I'd picture that getting around the attack.

because Sheik can move the chain behind her

:[

I tried lol

 

[Steel]

I believe that's possible, but Sheik can just make her chain hit behind her once you do that.

 

[Zankoku]

A Sheik who's actually competent with the chain will keep it active at a long enough range that you cannot shield dash into it, and rolling at any distance beyond that range will not carry you far enough. Yes, I'm calling myself incompetent with the chain.

 

[Anther]

... fine, throw steak at her till she stops.

 

[Tenki]

Yeah, someone suggested to me last time I brought this up to just run to the other side of the stage and side taunt.

;__;

 

[Blistering Speed]

That would actually enrage me so much I'd *****slap the player IRL.