Sonic the Hedgehog in Brawl+

[Blank Mauser]

Theres a G&W thread, so I decided to make a Sonic thread. Also, Jiang told me to. Obligatory intro pic:

Supposedly one of the better characters in B+, which I disagree with. He still has multiple problems with priority and kill moves. Most of his combos are rather simple compared to other characters. Uair and Uthrow can be DI'ed out of and in a lot of cases will end with just a Bair or Fair.

He has a huge problem approaching, and overall a lot of bad matchups when you really take a look at the roster. The characters hes about even with are FF'ers, characters he can combo and gimp well. I don't believe he has the advantage in these matchups though.

A few buffs I recommend that I don't think will be too unbearable.

-Most of you know his Usmash is a meteor smash when it hits the right way. I suggest making it always a meteor smash that spikes downwards. It will hardly ever work on the ledge. Easy to tech obviously, but might catch some people off guard and set up for techchasing if the move ended fast enough. Overall a nice move to add to Sonic's pressure game.

-Because Sonic is so good at techchasing and he needs a better kill move, I suggest we buff Sonic's sweetspot Dsmash. Buff it so it kills at lower percents and comes out faster, then we have a decent KO move that takes skill to land.

-Make his Dair cancelable earlier. His Dair spike is currently too risky of a move to be very applicable.

-Less Aerial Lag. This would help Fair, Nair and Dair a lot. Considering Falcon has 40% ALR and his aerials actually have range, I don't see why Sonic doesn't deserve a good approach too. Nair could also be a great combo starter. Nair into Up-B may even be an 80-90% kill setup.

-Make homing attack come out sooner, and spike. Another great add to his pressure game that would also help his combos. It would be less usable off-stage considering he has better and safer options out there, but on-stage it has more potential for techchasing and other options.

To me Sonic is a gimmicky character that pressures people who have little experience against him. He has to work hard for the few hits that he does get and he still has bad follow-ups for all of them. With these buffs I think it would make Sonic a fast, pressuring (but still unreliable) killing force with a scary spike. None of it would change the flavor of the character, nor really give him incredibly reliable kill moves. It just gives him more options in general, which I think he desperately needs.

 

[GirugaMarc]

momentum screws up his out of spin dash options so bad...

I don't use sonic, but it'd be nice if something could be done about it

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

You can already dash cancel dsmash pretty easy and it gets nice range that way. Normally I just run behind the person with sonic and dash cancel fsmash, its pretty pressuring if you ask me. All these improvements sound like they would fit though, ESPECIALLY making the homing attack much faster if anything else.

 

[Rocann]

if someone is supposedly one of the better characters, it means the general consensus is that they're doing fine as far as win/loss, and they therefore don't need any buffs. so just because sometimes when you're playing you think "man, if only he had this, I could've done that" doesn't mean that it is actually necessary.

 

[Blank Mauser]

momentum screws up his out of spin dash options so bad...

I don't use sonic, but it'd be nice if something could be done about it

Actually this was fixed in the newest version so nothing to worry about anymore.

You can already dash cancel dsmash pretty easy and it gets nice range that way. Normally I just run behind the person with sonic and dash cancel fsmash, its pretty pressuring if you ask me. All these improvements sound like they would fit though, ESPECIALLY making the homing attack much faster if anything else.

It does get nice range, which is why I think it should be buffed. It just doesn't seem like a move thats worth using right now except for maybe punishing certain approaches or mindgames. Running behind the opponent into DC Dtilt or Fsmash is a fun thing I like to do too, but its really hard to actually pull that off without eating sword or something.

if someone is supposedly one of the better characters, it means the general consensus is that they're doing fine as far as win/loss, and they therefore don't need any buffs. so just because sometimes when you're playing you think "man, if only he had this, I could've done that" doesn't mean that it is actually necessary.

I figured he was just considered one of the best characters because the general public had trouble against him, not because he was actually a good character. Just my opinion from what I've heard in the past.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well, I supposed I'm going to be polite and ignore all of our previous arguments, since it's just tiring to both of us. Now taking a look at your changes...I don't think they'd act the way you think they would.

1.Making upsmash a spike on the last hit-you say this would be usefull for tech chasing but I very much disagree. At the upsmash's current speed a simple tech in place would give the opponent the frame advantage (you'd get punished for landing the upsmash). In order to actually make it useful for techchasing, you'd have to lower the ending lag. The problem with this is with the kind of speed boost needed to pull this off, you'd also make the upsmash safe on block. Upsmash is also a relatively high priority move (due mostly to Sonic's hurtbox shrinking when he does it), so DACUS would suddenly be a powerful approach option for him. Not exactly what you were going for I assume?

2. I agree that a speed up for d-smash would do wonders for Sonic. It's currently only 1 frame faster than F-smash. But the knockback increase is something I'm against, considering f-smash is supposed to be the stronger of the two. I'd rather maintain that relationship if possible. F-smash is safe on block and fairly disjointed, but is also too slow to reliably combo into. I'd like it to be stronger so that when you do land the move it actually hurts. D-smash should be the combo finisher/techchase move, so it should be the weaker of the two (though I guess it could use a slight increase in knockback).

3. Dair is still useable off stage you know. You can use it at stage level and still recover. Extending the sweetspot range would be much more useful in this scenario. Making it end sooner has it's merits though, since after the sweetspot it's got terrible priority (yet a lovely launch angle).

4. Lower ALR. 40% isn't gonna cut it if you're trying to make fair more useful. At that ALR, autocancel fairs are still faster than SHFFL'd fairs and you still probably won't be comboing from it. Nair would lose maybe 1 frame of landing lag with that 10% decrease. The only aerials that gain significant benifits are dair and uair. Would probably make dair safe on block (which would be very, very interesting).

5. Make homing attack come out sooner and make it a spike-you say it wouldn't be useful off stage, but I disagree. If you really make it fast enough to be useful on stage, then I'd assume it's fast enough to combo into right? Or at least fast enough that the opponent can't react to it? Well those same concepts can easily be applied to combos close to the edge, with the HA being the off stage finisher. Also, it'd be so hilarious if it ended up being a high percent reliable combo starter (typically, combos done by bouncing opponents off the ground work until ridiculous percentages).

Well, that's my response to your list of changes. Now as for the validity of buffing Sonic? It depends on where we want to put the cutoff point. The more other characters get buffed, the worse it becomes for Sonic (since most of the buffs are getting rid of character weaknesses, which is what Sonic exploits.) That being said, even now I still believe Sonic is a perfectly viable character who does not need help to be successful. But if we're tying to make every character "Melee Falcon good," then I'd obviously be in favor of buffing Sonic.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Well, I supposed I'm going to be polite and ignore all of our previous arguments, since it's just tiring to both of us. Now taking a look at your changes...I don't think they'd act the way you think they would.

1.Making upsmash a spike on the last hit-you say this would be usefull for tech chasing but I very much disagree. At the upsmash's current speed a simple tech in place would give the opponent the frame advantage (you'd get punished for landing the upsmash). In order to actually make it useful for techchasing, you'd have to lower the ending lag. The problem with this is with the kind of speed boost needed to pull this off, you'd also make the upsmash safe on block. Upsmash is also a relatively high priority move (due mostly to Sonic's hurtbox shrinking when he does it), so DACUS would suddenly be a powerful approach option for him. Not exactly what you were going for I assume?

2. I agree that a speed up for d-smash would do wonders for Sonic. It's currently only 1 frame faster than F-smash. But the knockback increase is something I'm against, considering f-smash is supposed to be the stronger of the two. I'd rather maintain that relationship if possible.

3.Dair is still useable off stage you know. You can use it at stage level and still recover. Extending the sweetspot range would be much more useful in this scenario.

4. Lower ALR. 40% isn't gonna cut it if you're trying to make fair more useful. At that ALR, autocancel fairs are still faster than SHFFL'd fairs and you still probably won't be comboing from it. Nair would lose maybe 1 frame of landing lag with that 10% decrease. The only aerials that gain significant benifits are dair and uair. Would probably make dair safe on block (which would be very, very interesting).

5. Make homing attack come out sooner and make it a spike-you say it wouldn't be useful off stage, but I disagree. If you really make it fast enough to be useful on stage, then I'd assume it's fast enough to combo into right? Or at least fast enough that the opponent can't react to it? Well those same concepts can easily be applied to combos close to the edge, with the HA being the off stage finisher. Also, it'd be so hilarious if it ended up being a high percent reliable combo starter (typically, combos done by bouncing opponents off the ground work until ridiculous percentages).

Well, that's my response to your list of changes. Now as for the validity of buffing Sonic? It depends on where we want to put the cutoff point. The more other characters get buffed, the worse it becomes for Sonic (since most of the buffs are getting rid of character weaknesses, which is what Sonic exploits.) That being said, even now I still believe Sonic is a perfectly viable character who does not need help to be successful. But if we're tying to make every character "Melee Falcon good," then I'd obviously be in favor of buffing Sonic.

1. Actually I did consider that. Seeing as his Usmash is slightly disjointed it would make it a better approach option, and for techchasing it would indeed need to end faster and would be safe on block. These are fine in my opinion though, seeing as he has other approaches that are safe on block and have good range, while Usmash still starts out pretty slow.

2. I think its okay for Dsmash to be stronger as long as its just the sweetspot. Its a much harder move to land with, even if it does come out faster.

3. This is one buff I'm willing to retreat from, especially if more ALR is implemented.

4. I would say somewhere around 25-35% ALR to make use of his aerials better. Making Dair safe on block or even a guaranteed grab isn't a big deal since it has such bad startup time and priority.

5. I don't think it would be useless off-stage, but he'd have much safer options besides it. It being faster doesn't necessarily mean guaranteed comboing into it, but basically making it a valid attack in general. It being a high percentage combo into a killer is just fine. I am well aware of Falcon and Falco's dair, and those moves are really where I got the inspiration for it from.

I still believe Sonic has too many bad matchups to be readily viable, especially compared to the rest of the cast. I might even go as far to say that hes the worst character after all the buffs being handed out to others, but I won't until the situation calls for it.

 

[Revven]

Why not just make Fair have specific ALR instead of giving a universal ALR to him? If Fair is the only laggy move, just make it have 35% ALR while his other moves remain 50%. We can do this now, you know.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Why not just make Fair have specific ALR instead of giving a universal ALR to him? If Fair is the only laggy move, just make it have 35% ALR while his other moves remain 50%. We can do this now, you know.

Fair isn't really the only laggy move, and I don't think it needs it much. It would be cool though. Maybe some Uair/Nair > Fair combos into grab or something ala Pika?

Nair and Dair are what I really want to see more versatile.

 

[Dark Sonic]

1. Actually I did consider that. Seeing as his Usmash is slightly disjointed it would make it a better approach option, and for techchasing it would indeed need to end faster and would be safe on block. These are fine in my opinion though, seeing as he has other approaches that are safe on block and have good range, while Usmash still starts out pretty slow.

Well, glad to see that you put some thought into it. Though starting slow can be mitigated by the sliding you get from the DACUS. Not on overpowered approach so I guess that'd be fine.

2. I think its okay for Dsmash to be stronger as long as its just the sweetspot. Its a much harder move to land with, even if it does come out faster.

What kind of speed up are you thinking of? I'm thinking "enough speed to combo into it and tech chase with it", meaning it would be his most reliable kill move (since you wouldn't have to trick your opponent in order to land it). With that in mind, I don't think it should be more powerful than the F-smash, since at that point the F-smash would be the harder to land of the two.

3. This is one buff I'm willing to retreat from, especially if more ALR is implemented.

Agreed

4. I would say somewhere around 25-35% ALR to make use of his aerials better. Making Dair safe on block or even a guaranteed grab isn't a big deal since it has such bad startup time and priority.

I would never go as far as a guranteed grab. That's an 8 frame advantage just to pull that off. "safe on block" is -5 frames or higher (since the fastest OoS move is 5 frames+1 for the jump cancel OoS). But yeah, that amount of ALR would definitely make SHFFL's more powerful.

5. I don't think it would be useless off-stage, but he'd have much safer options besides it. It being faster doesn't necessarily mean guaranteed comboing into it, but basically making it a valid attack in general.

If it's fast enough to be viable then that means it's also fast enough to combo into (given that Sonic's other moves generally have low lag and HA travels really far in a relatively small amount of time)

It being a high percentage combo into a killer is just fine. I am well aware of Falcon and Falco's dair, and those moves are really where I got the inspiration for it from.

An interesting buff to say the least.

 

[Blank Mauser]

What kind of speed up are you thinking of? I'm thinking "enough speed to combo into it and tech chase with it", meaning it would be his most reliable kill move (since you wouldn't have to trick your opponent in order to land it). With that in mind, I don't think it should be more powerful than the F-smash, since at that point the F-smash would be the harder to land of the two.

I was just thinking fast enough to techchase with, and also some situational punishes. Fsmash can be used to techchase too but you're less punishable if you commit to it and miss. There are also a few combos like Dtilt to Fsmash at times. Still, tricking your opponent into it is still the main way to do it. Dsmash won't replace that I think. The range on its sweetspot isn't that great and its more punishable. They would both have their uses.

If it's fast enough to be viable then that means it's also fast enough to combo into (given that Sonic's other moves generally have low lag and HA travels really far in a relatively small amount of time)

Well it does travel far but as it goes farther its chances of hitting decrease. You still have to be precise with it and all. It would be viable in the way that its not too predictable, but comboing into it will be a much more situational affair. I don't know about speeding up its travel speed, mainly just the possible startup time.

An interesting buff to say the least.

Yeah I think it'd be pretty awesome to see Sonic pull things off like that. Hes just 2cool to be such a straightforward character at times.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well it does travel far but as it goes farther its chances of hitting decrease.

Not exactly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QMRTsGfy0c 6:48. On the edges, it has very, very good range. It just also has a lot of areas in between where it can't hit (I'd imagine it would be another ellipse inside the main one, though even more stretched out horizontally). Most of Sonic's moves would actually put the opponent in a nice position for a HA...if he didn't have to wait for the terrible startup lag.

You still have to be precise with it and all. It would be viable in the way that its not too predictable, but comboing into it will be a much more situational affair. I don't know about speeding up its travel speed, mainly just the possible startup time.

Well, I've figured out that a small boost will do absolutely nothing to the usefulness of HA. If I were to give it a speed up, I'd rather just completely change the use of the move, making it a staple combo finisher and tech chase starter (essentially acting as a pseudo pillar).

 

[goodoldganon]

Sonic's fine he doesn't need any help.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sonic's fine he doesn't need any help.

Well, I did already say that in my first post lol.

Then again, so is G&W and we had an entire thread discussing ways to buff him too. This thread is in case our standard for "good" characters changes. (I personally believe "viable" is a perfectly fine criteria)

 

[illinialex24]

Make his B-side have higher priority and let him do more damage with it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Invincibility is not enough priority for you? Wow.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Not exactly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QMRTsGfy0c 6:48. On the edges, it has very, very good range. It just also has a lot of areas in between where it can't hit (I'd imagine it would be another ellipse inside the main one, though even more stretched out horizontally). Most of Sonic's moves would actually put the opponent in a nice position for a HA...if he didn't have to wait for the terrible startup lag.

Ah, well I don't exactly know all the details of HA I just figured that the more time to move the opponent gets after Sonic starts the chase would make him target thin air and miss. I do know it has good range though.

Well, I've figured out that a small boost will do absolutely nothing to the usefulness of HA. If I were to give it a speed up, I'd rather just completely change the use of the move, making it a staple combo finisher and tech chase starter (essentially acting as a pseudo pillar).

Yeah thats pretty much what I was thinking with the move. I just didn't know if others would think its too good. I do think being able to combo into and it also being a combo started would be great, but as far as how extreme the difference goes I didn't exactly want to overstep any boundaries.

Sonic's fine he doesn't need any help.

He says you're all just too slow.

 

[illinialex24]

^^Invincibility is not enough priority for you? Wow.

I mean later move. If your approaching lets say a Marth with the move its so easy just to hit out of it and even with all the mindgames you want, its too low priority mid move.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I mean later move. If your approaching lets say a Marth with the move its so easy just to hit out of it and even with all the mindgames you want, its too low priority mid move.

...then don't approach with a defensive move? You're asking if we can make it easy for Sonic to approach Marth who has been designed to be one of the hardest characters to approach in the game?! Now your really overstepping into another character's strengths.

Also we can't modify priority anyway. Even if we could I would be very against this buff.

 

[illinialex24]

I know but what I am trying to say is that to improve Sonic, it would be a good buff.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Meh, I don't really like seeing spindash as a good approach either. We can't technically change priority anyways so thats that.

 

[GHNeko]

Dsmash as a semi-spike with good KB.

GOgogogo.


Really. It looks like that kind of move that would semi spike.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Dsmash as a semi-spike with good KB.

GOgogogo.


Really. It looks like that kind of move that would semi spike.

If you Dsmash near the edge you can knock them off and buffer Daircide with them. Thats enough of a spike for me.

 

[GHNeko]

But making Dsmash a semi spike is easierrrrrr.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Lol my point was, if you try and Dsmash near the egde you might get screwed over. Sure you can do it smartly but when Sonic can gimp and stage spike with dash attack then or something then yeah.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I'd rather see the dsmash sped up with better knockback than semispiking

Maybe I'd actually use it for something other than spotdodge punishment.



And stepping off of logic and onto fanboyism, who wouldn't want Sonic to have a curl move that kills? It's just so...Sonic. xD

 

[GHNeko]

Lol my point was, if you try and Dsmash near the egde you might get screwed over. Sure you can do it smartly but when Sonic can gimp and stage spike with dash attack then or something then yeah.

THEN TURN DOWN YOUR HANDICAP.

 

[Swordplay]

Maybe D-smash could be sped up IDK. I can play sonic but I don't that often. I always imagined sonic being the type of character than runs in for punishment given the opportunity. That said. I always thought his grab game was extremly important.

By saying that the buffs I would actually like to see for sonic cannot be done ATM because they involve tweaking his f throw to set up for more **** combos.


Then again, don't take anything I say seriously, I'm no sonic main. Listen to dark sonic.

 

[tocador]

Give him steak tier buff and hell' be just fine!

k, jk.

I really think sonic should get that D-smash buff, in the part of speed, but not in power. You know, whats the point of you having 2 killing moves that are grounded, but one comes faster the the other and has preety much same range? This way you'r going to make f-smash loof useless!

 

[Blank Mauser]

Give him steak tier buff and hell' be just fine!

k, jk.

I really think sonic should get that D-smash buff, in the part of speed, but not in power. You know, whats the point of you having 2 killing moves that are grounded, but one comes faster the the other and has preety much same range? This way you'r going to make f-smash loof useless!

It would only be the first frame of Dsmash, not the entire move. It has much less range than Fsmash and lands way less often.

 

[Kinzer]

...

... Is it still possible to tech his D-throw in LOL+...?

...

 

[Blank Mauser]

Indeed it is. Its even easier now with the tech code.

 

[GHNeko]

At least you can tech chase with it..


Right?

 

[Kinzer]

...

... Can you fix that, please...?

 

[Blank Mauser]

At least you can tech chase with it..


Right?

No, they can actually tech it and punish you for using a bad character.

Which is why I suggested the Usmash buff, so he has a good way to setup for techchases.

 

[GHNeko]

We cant give it the same treatment we gave the murder choke, can we? (Ie speed up ending animation)

 

[Blank Mauser]

We could probably make it so it would be a bad idea to tech right in front of him, but I have no idea how much of a frame advantage he would have.

 

[GHNeko]

Experiment and find out.

 

[goodoldganon]

In a recent backroom set Sonic's Up-smash spikes people allowing for techchasing in place of the D-throw.

 

[Dark Sonic]

The fix isn't complete yet GoG. The upsmash speedup didn't register which is essential to such a fix