Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

[pao13]

Sonic Rules

 

[pao13]

Sonic Rules

 

[pao13]

Sonic Rules

 

[pao13]

Sonic Is The Best And Most Awesome Ssbb Character Ever He Can Kick Everybodys *** Even Marios

 

[Browny]

inb4 combos

 

[Kinzer]

go to training mode
db side 1 2 3 up 4
take note of KO potential
???

Training mode has no moveset decay and rumor has it knockback/%ages are different in there too.

Try that in a Brawl and tell me it is as powerful.

 

[aeghrur]

You're very ******** if you think DB will ever kill, I'll give you the UPTilt but seriously? Tell me somebody else here can back me up on that, or at least if I have to I will get confirmation from the mainers of the character and I can tell you they won't say anything different.

At least I'm trying, I don't see you do @#$% but point out the things other people.

...Then again, I question whether or not it's better that way.

DB kills, at least the up version at some high percents.
But it kills nontheless. =/

 

[Exceladon City]

Wouldn't it be more efficient to ask Umby since he plays Marth?

 

[MalcolmM]

It would be more efficient to just admit the move kills. You count Sonics up-throw as a potential kill move in horrible matchup arguments when you need to... so how can you ignore Marths dancing blade? Infact...Marth's upthrow kills earlier than sonic's so you should add that in as well.

There is no argument. The move kills.

 

[Exceladon City]

It would be more efficient to just admit the move kills. You count Sonics up-throw as a potential kill move in horrible matchup arguments when you need to... so how can you ignore Marths dancing blade? Infact...Marth's upthrow kills earlier than sonic's so you should add that in as well.

There is no argument. The move kills.

Sonic's uthrow doesn't kill until like 215% on a light character and if it's killing anything before that then you're not using uthrow enough or your opponent doesn't know how to DI. The same goes for Marth.

 

[Browny]

it can KO considerably earlier than that lol... but it wont coz it will be stale to some degree

 

[Camalange]

Sonic's Uthrow is a terrible idea for a kill move, lmao

It's like "Wow...my opponent is at 230% and they haven't died yet...welp, might as well try"
*grabs and pummels > Uthrow*
*death*
"Good thing they can't DI!"

And yes, sorry to say Kinz, but DB is definitley a kill option.

 

[aeghrur]

Wouldn't it be more efficient to ask Umby since he plays Marth?

Cuz gumby's gay.

 

[chaoechidna]

i was killed by dancing blade just today..

 

[Kinzer]

It would be more efficient to just admit the move kills. You count Sonics up-throw as a potential kill move in horrible matchup arguments when you need to... so how can you ignore Marths dancing blade? Infact...Marth's upthrow kills earlier than sonic's so you should add that in as well.

There is no argument. The move kills.

fffffffffffffffffffffffffff.

I thought we got it taken care of that I took my word back there too. :<

Man, you know what, since apparently I'm outnumbered yet again, I'll change it due to community consensus, but since it is MY write-up and I can do whatever the @#$% I want with it until some of you either C&P it and fix/change a couple of things and/or make your own guide all-together, I'm not going to change a @#$% thing until I see cold-hard numbers, as I am still very skeptical of all of you telling me the move does anything more than refresh/shield-pressure.

That's right I said it, I'm trying to help this community and all I get is backtalk/people telling me to change this and change that, you know what? If you hate my guide so GD much you have as much willpower as I do to make your own guide that meets your needs, until then you can settle with having mine as a referential, 'cause God knows all you bums are too d*** lazy up in the Xat in doing whatever it is.

With that said I'm still a reasonable man, if one of you... any of you, can get me data on DB, then I will be more than happy to change it, because I don't go with theorycraft anymore, I go with hard data and experience.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Yo kinzer, why dont you go suck a **** yo.

Ive had it up to just about ------ here with your bullcrap.

How the hell are you going to try to justify putting up horribly in accurate information as "helping the community."

thats why I said let other people tell us what their mains can do, cus every boards had dumb *****s that swear up and down that they know everything when in reality they have no effing clue what they are talking about.

than, when I explain why you are wrong you say nothing but "youre wrong" and, "what have you ever done"

for all I care right now, kin you can go die in a fire. cus even when I try to help you, all you give me is bs.

I would hope that after time and time again being made to look like a fool that you would stop. but there you are the next time i see you post, being dumb again.

if you dont know what marth does and can do, than just shut the hell up, its ALWAYS better that way.

also for anyone that still wants to talk about marth.

you should never do anything thats not COMPLETELY safe against marth after you hit the 130 mark. he will punish you with up b which is a strong kill move with invincibility. marths will also pre-emptively go for it if you do anything thats committed, or anything that he can predict. Even perfectly spaced bairs, will get you killed if you get predictable about it

 

[Kinzer]

Haha, whew oh boy this is funny, whenever I play DotA I'm always told to go DIAF, it's common in there for people to insult others just to make themselves feel better and increase their e-peen.

I'm not trying to make any point with you though KID, I still have some respect for you... whether or not you mean it (I assume you do), it's just it feels great being told that by somebody you actually know (no sarcasm here) compared to some random on the internet.

You know, I probably am ********. I can't believe it took me a year and/or a couple of months to see what everybody else has been saying... saying how this place is weird. Only now do I clearly see what ITT, SP, Umby, and Malcolm (for different reasons granted) were saying about how they don't even want to come here, let alone voice their opinion.

Anyway if you need me, which I doubt any of you will from the way it seems, I'll be on the WCIII Battle.Net playing DotA as usual... or perhaps I'll get back into WoW (although I won't make the same mistake/s I did back when I just started/was much younger). It doesn't appear that I am providing any assistance, and it would be better off if things just stayed the way they are now. I'd rather not get on any of your guys' nerves, and quite frankly this place has been driving me nuts since... meh I don't even want to think how long it's been, oh heavens no.

All this for just 1 or 2 mistakes, out of a whole GD guide I had to be called out on a few small details, I'd understand if the whole thing was whack, but I haven't been hearing from anybody about anything else. Ridiculous.

Just one more thing before I leave, it's always custom of me/the DotA community to make this comeback, and KID, "this one's for you!:"

"You fiiiiirrrrrrrst~~~ <3"

 

[Browny]

because I don't go with theorycraft anymore, I go with hard data and experience.

What makes you think im not talking from experience too? I happen to use marth a bit as well, and play against his mains kinda often.

its really not that hard to see for yourself. turn on brawl and do what I said. do it in a real brawl if you must, but you will see that db up4 and utilt are decent KO moves. utilt KO's earlier non tippered if you are in the air so dont stand next to him. db side 4 (after maybe side 1 down 2 3 side 4) can also KO off the side at moderate-high %'s if you are caught near the edge

 

[Kinzer]

Moo.

I wasn't saying how none of you weren't going off experience either.

You read what your eyes see, no subtle reference or thing to get.

 

[Camalange]

The internet is serious business.

Dancing blade can kill. I just died from it today, lol. I don't understand how correcting some blatant errors means we're ganging up on you.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

>.>

Oh yeah... NOW I remember why I barely come here. Everyone turned into cynical *******s. lol

 

[4nace]

Why are the Sonic boards so mad at each other? I think it's the tier list's fault. When everyone thought Sonic was too low, we all had something to work towards. Now look at us, cynical and depressed. We can only hope that we drop under Samus next tier list so the boards can jump to life again!

PS, i miss Tenki.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Nah. It's really just everyone against Kinzer lol. He's just wrong in this ONE instance. I'm not totally sure what's up but DB DEFINITELY kills sooner than Sonic's Uthrow. DB TOTALLY counts as a kill move. Deal with it.

 

[4nace]

Yea, thats true, but the character forums have a lot less activity than they did in the spring =P.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Oh that. lol Nah. Everyone's in the Xat.

 

[Kinzer]

>:l

You know, since my credibility is on the line but my lazy nature/personality comes first apparently, I'm going to go test these myself in-game.

...Only the results will have to wait until Monday when I can set up my Wii, because I am too lazy to set it up now only to have to take it down so I can bring it along with me to the weekly to get a discount.

I'll bring a pen and some paper along with me, since I don't trust myself to remember all the numbers. I really don't say anything unless I've seen it done/it's happened right in front of my eyes, but since this is causing a ruckus I have no choice but to recreate the situations that it should work... if it does at all.

The Scientific Method is becoming much more useful than I had presumed it to be since grade school... watching a plant grow over the course of 6 weeks is boring, getting deeper into the game that is Brawl is much more useful and exciting~!

 

[Chis]

...

Anyways, I'm doing the Zelda write up. Yes I have good experience.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I would like to point out that you're British and therefore have never seen another living being holding a gamecube controller.

 

[Kupo Rose]

I would like to point out that you're British and therefore have never seen another living being holding a gamecube controller.

You almost made that seem we are not human.

 

[da K.I.D.]

no, everyone over there is justtotal nub cake and plays with a wiichuk


chis. i will let that be determined by your potentially awful writeup
lol

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

From what I understand you guys have like 2 tourneys a year. If people really wanted they could do 3 a week here.

Also what KID said. lolnubs.

 

[Kupo Rose]

I won't disagree with that, its more Street Fighter oriented over here. Last smashscene in Scotland was 3 years ago. >__>

Who says we use Wiichuck @__@?

 

[Browny]

i herd razer uses wiichuck

what now?

 

[Kupo Rose]

From 1 guy alone?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

You're in the UK. 1 person makes up like 18 percent of your players.

 

[Chis]

lol

Anyways, here's the write up. Is it alright?
Also I need help on the stage part.

ZELDA - Character Matchup 16

Introduction

The dignified Princess Zelda from the 'Legend of Zelda' games. Unlike in her games, her brawl incantation isn't as helpless and doesn't get kidnapped every weekday. Being equip with a bunch of kill moves, the 3rd most powerful spike in the game, powerful smashes with lingering boxes and being (almost) impossible to DI out from, she can easily fend Ganon away without Link's help.

Behaviour:

Zelda has a good punishing game with Usmash, Fsmash, reversed Naryu's love, Dtilt, lighting kicks and Uair. She can easily obtain quick leads from the last two moves. At 50 Plenty of her attacks have lingering hit boxes making side stepping unhelpful. or so she gains true combos from her dtilt which she can chain into a number of different things. Like Game and Watch she somewhat fits the description of a glass cannon character. She has lots of powerful attacks and can kill really earily but is hindered with her light weight. However her terrible recovery, cool down and other issues weigh her down even further.

Commonly Used Moves:

Up smash
A strong smash attack that's good at shield poking. Beware of its long lasting hit boxes so don't spot dodge, shield instead. Zelda uses this to her advantage to eat through air dodges and such. Like Fsmash, it's hard to Smash DI out of, but possible. SDI upwards. It's also one of her main kill moves. Lastly, this can be hyphen smashed.

Forward smash
This smash is used for attacking and punishing and has good range to boot. Like Usmash, it has long lasting hit boxes and is good at shield poking. But this has less cool down but is still punishable if it misses. Considering how much Usmash and Fsmash eat out of your shield, I recommend you tilt your shield towards the attack to avoid the last few hits poking through and killing you. This smash attack is also hard to SDI ot of. You must SDI upwards and outwards from the first hit (6 frames). This is also another killing move.

Down tilt
Zelda's down tilt can trip and has a fair amount of hit stun. The hit stun from dtilt at a high enough percentage can lead to another dtilt. This is known as a dtilt lock. Dtilt can also be followed up by other things. Smash DI away to get out of it early. Used around 50 since Zelda starts getting a significant frame advantage over you from that point. Also at pint dtilt is start poping you up which can be followed by you getting killed by an up tilt.

Combos from hitstun

Your safest options from a Dtilt are generally anything below 6-8 frames:

• DSmash
• Dtilt...Dtilt...Dtilt...
• Dash Attack
• Usmash

If you happen to have a fresher Dtilt and your opponent is in the 70s and 80s percent wise, you can start throwing out anything generally under 10-11 frames:

• Utilt
• Farore's Wind
• Grab *grab is 12 frames but if your opponent doesn't have a 1 frame attack, you can grab them out of a shield, attack or spotdodge no matter what.

If your opponent trips, it's a free attack. Use this free attack VERY wisely. Utilt and Din's fire will not hit your opponent in tripping animation.

• Grab (the most damaging option)
• All Smash Attacks
  
• All Tilts except Utilt
• Nayru's and FW (Nayru's is quite damaging when the opponent is low and hit by all the crystals)

Up air
Don't linger right above Zelda in the air unless you want to eat an Uair, which you don't. They can often bait air dodges with your understandable fear of getting uaired, then uair you once you come out of your invincibility frames. So it's best to DI away from that.

Fair/Bair (Lighting kick)
Kills Sonic around 70% when it's fresh giving Zelda an early lead, so the time to be wary about this attack is when you're at 70 or so. She has multiple ways to land this on you, so beware. Dropping from platforms and kicking you, kicking you out of shield. Zelda can also do two lighting kicks from a short hop, so try not to be caught off guard and drop your shield too quickly.

Naryu's Love
Mainly used for interrupting at attack. Usually reversed so you're sent pass Zelda. Invincibility frames from 4-12. However if you shield the whole thing, Sonic has no problem punishing it.

Din's fire
No real problem for Sonic. Just run up to her and grab her if he does this. Also don't be fooled by the Din's fire mind games. If the flame seems to have went by you, don't drop your shield as the burst has a large hit hox.

How to Win:

Zelda doesn't have any safe way to approach you and can only force you to approach with a lead. Try not to let that happen. Note that she can gain quick a lead with lighting kicks and uair so try your best to avoid that from happening. It becomes easier to punish her when she has to approach so try can gain a lead and keep it. If for some reason Zelda uses din's fire, just run up to her and grab her.

A lot of Zeldas like to air dodge pass your attacks and do a counter attack. Retreating fairs and grabs deal with that approach fairly well. Punish Fsmashes and Usmashes that hit your shield with dash attack out of shield, grabs and ftilt.

Note that her jabs come out really slowly (11 frames) and her grab has terrible range and is avoidable by reaction. A lot of Zelda's moves have a good amount of lag after them such as Usmash and Fsmash or come out slowly (jab, grab and uair). Therefore Zelda is more prone to bait and punishing tatics.

Although Zelda does have a good punish game herself and can punish your approaches with dtilt and her smashes so be careful. Zelda has a good platform game with usmash, utilt and nair so try not to spend too much time on them.

Don't side step, sheild. The lingering hit boxes from her smashes, nair and Naryu's Love will beat your side step, so shield instead. Tilt your shield towards her smashes to help prevent them shield poking through. SDI away from her Dtilt. SDI upwards and outwards from her Fsmash and Upwards from her Usmash. Yeah, try and not get spiked. 3rd strongest spike in the game. It will kill Sonic. So avoid joining Zelda in a body of water becasue if she spikes you that is the end of your stock.

Zelda can't do much in the air so sending her in the air with up throw and keeping her there with uairs is a good idea. Farore's wind only travels in 8 directions so it should be fairly simple to figure out where she plans to go. If she tries to sweet spot the ledge, instant ledge hug it. If she lands on the stage, punish. If she appears in the air, it should be easy to punish her.

Recommended Stages:

Ban-
Corneria
Green greens
Luguis Mansion
Battle field

Counter pick-
Delfino Plaza
Lylat Cruise
Jungle Japes
Pokemon Stadium 2

Matchup Summary:


50:50 Even

 

[Kupo Rose]

edit: ergh, nevermind this post. >__>

 

[Chis]

*reads back*

You're in the UK. 1 person makes up like 18 percent of your players.

I lol'd

 

[da K.I.D.]

I really think sonic beats zelda....

 

[KayLo!]

Naryu's has invincibility from frames 5-11, not 4-12.

I'll re-read this and contribute more if I get a chance later, but that part stood out to me since I did the frame testing, lol.

More frame data for Zelda: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218082

The OP isn't completely up-to-date, but if you read through the last few pages, I've been adding more and more data as we go through our move analysis thread.