Sonic the Hedgehog; a 2nd series rep

[iam8bit]

If there's no 2nd Sonic character (which is the most likely case), I'd hope that Tails or Eggman get added as Assist Trophies, even if Shadow needs to be scrapped. He can stay as a palette swap.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

When a third-party franchise begins to gain more recognition than some of Nintendo's own history, you know that the original vision of Smash has been disregarded. While I do agree that Sega has been working closer to Nintendo than they were just a few years ago, that doesn't make them any more Nintendo. I think that Nintendo and Sega's new found closeness speaks volumes about Sonic being in future Smash games, but it says nothing about a second rep. Sonic as an individual character is the mascot of Nintendo's worst-rival-turned-closest-ally, but once you begin to add more Sonic characters, you begin treating a guest franchise like an actual Nintendo series, while neglecting actual Nintendo series.

This may sound like a paranoid ramble, but Sakurai has displayed a pretty particular attitude toward third-parties. He even went out of his way to make Mega Man reflect his NES incarnate as much as possible in order to compliment his purist form of thinking towards Super Smash Bros.

"I'm not going to have just any character participate from other companies." -Masahiro Sakurai, Super Smash Bros for Wii U & 3DS Developer Direct, 2013

Like I said, I'm not going to neglect Nintendo and Sega's partnership over the course of the past few years, but that just means that Sega can expect an open door to one guest character, not one more guest character.

I'm still not convinced. It can still happen. Never say never

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm still not convinced. It can still happen. Never say never

We're not saying it can't happen.

We're saying it won't.

 

[RadRedi]

I'm still not convinced. It can still happen. Never say never

There is a fine line between optimism and getting your hopes up. You can disagree with me all day long, but if your only reason is because you'd like to see it happen, then there is an unnecessary amount of blind faith in play here.

I would really like to see Dillon make it into the game. He is a really cool character who is slowly developing his own series, he is a physically unique looking Nintendo character, and, like Starfy and Little Mac before him, his simple existence in the world of Smash would certainly boost both his popularity and his sales. Even then, like Starfy and Little Mac before him, I know that his existence could just be an Assist Trophy. Maybe even just a trophy, like Chibi Robo was in Brawl.

Here's a better example: Starfy. A character I just had a gut feeling would be playable this time around. I mean, between Brawl and now, his fifth game was released, and this time, it was international! Why wouldn't he be in Smash? Anyone who has played a Starfy game knows that he has plenty of move set potential!

Well, I'll tell you why: because Sakurai is very very particular about his roster.

Faith is a good thing, but putting it in a video game - especially where what you want could very well not happen - isn't the wisest decision.

 

[andimidna]

We're not saying it can't happen.

We're saying it won't.

That and how we hope it won't.

But seriously, why add a 2nd rep for one 3rd party series before every 1st party series gets at least one rep, or a few more 3rd party companies?

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

That and how we hope it won't.

But seriously, why add a 2nd rep for one 3rd party series before every 1st party series gets at least one rep, or a few more 3rd party companies?

Because Sonic has far more to offer than Yoshi, F-Zero, or even Wii Fit mind you.

 

[andimidna]

Because Sonic has far more to offer than Yoshi, F-Zero, or even Wii Fit mind you.

I said at least one rep.
Referring to unrepresented Nintendo series
Yep, they exist. Nintendo has series of their own that will never get one rep (Harmoknight, Steel Diver, etc)
And some that are plausible. (Panel De Pon, Mysterious Murasame Castle, Sheriff, For the Frog the Bell Tolls, Xenoblade, Sin and Punishment, Golden Sun, Advance Wars, Dillon's Rolling Western, etc.)
I said at least one rep.
Referring to the Nintendo series with only one rep in Smash.
This could also refer to some of the ones with 0 too.
Metroid- Ridley
F-Zero- Samurai Goroh, Black Shadow
Yoshi- Kamek
Wario- Captain Syrup, Mona
Pikmin- Louie, Alph
Animal Crossing- Tom Nook, Isabelle
Punch Out!- King Hippo
You're right about Wii Fit, it will never get 2 reps aside from the alternate costume male.
However, I could argue all 12 of these characters all deserve a spot before a 2nd Sonic character.
Especially those higher up.
Even if a 3rd party has strong ties with Nintendo, they will never be as connected as Nintendo is with itself.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Yoshi- Kamek

Baloney! Kamek would represent Mario! I'm not saying will happen, I'm saying that it is not impossible.
And another thing! You cannot be so (censored) sure that the Sonic series isn't getting an extra character when you do not work for Sakurai, pardon my French, but that's a little bit stupid! You can think that way, but I'd only believe it if Sakurai himself tells you in person.

 

[RadRedi]

Baloney! Kamek would represent Mario! I'm not saying will happen, I'm saying that it is not impossible.
And another thing! You cannot be so (censored) sure that the Sonic series isn't getting an extra character when you do not work for Sakurai, pardon my French, but that's a little bit stupid! You can think that way, but I'd only believe it if Sakurai himself tells you in person.

We have as much insight on the roster as you do. I wouldn't pull that card when you disregard people simply by saying "never say never".

Also, Kamek would definitely be a Yoshi character. He's the main villain of the Yoshi series.

 

[andimidna]

Baloney! Kamek would represent Mario! I'm not saying will happen, I'm saying that it is not impossible.
And another thing! You cannot be so (censored) sure that the Sonic series isn't getting an extra character when you do not work for Sakurai, pardon my French, but that's a little bit stupid! You can think that way, but I'd only believe it if Sakurai himself tells you in person.

You must have missed Swampasaur's post.

We're not saying it can't happen.

We're saying it won't.

This one.
All I was trying to prove is why it won't and why it shouldn't.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

You must have missed Swampasaur's post.

This one.
All I was trying to prove is why it won't and why it shouldn't.

No I read that post, but I still don't believe you.

 

[andimidna]

No I read that post, but I still don't believe you.

Don't believe what?

 

[Deleted member]

Umm, idk. Cbeck with me after the seventh smash game.

Quit moving the goal post. We're talking this pair of games.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Quit moving the goal post. We're talking this pair of games.

Whatever, dude!

 

[volbound1700]

Kamek could represent Mario (see NSMB Wii).

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Kamek could represent Mario (see NSMB Wii).

I was gonna say the exact same thing, but that would be off topic.

And another thing, I said last week that there's nothing out there that suggests Nintendo buying up Sega, but that was so stupid of me. A lot of fans actually want that to happen, I'm not gonna dive too deep into that lake today though.

 

[Opossum]

Kamek could represent Mario (see NSMB Wii).

By that logic, R.O.B.'s a Mario Kart character. Kamek is the main villain of the Yoshi series, and has a much greater presence there.

I was gonna say the exact same thing, but that would be off topic.

And another thing, I said last week that there's nothing out there that suggests Nintendo buying up Sega, but that was so stupid of me. A lot of fans actually want that to happen, I'm not gonna dive too deep into that lake today though.

Just because some (not even most) fans want it to happen, doesn't mean it will.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Just because some (not even most) fans want it to happen, doesn't mean it will.

Hey! I didn't say I wanted Nintendo to buy out SEGA, I only said that is popular demand of late. When I say "I'm not diving too deep into that lake," that meant that I wasn't going to state my opinion and back it up all so boringly.

 

[Opossum]

Hey! I didn't say I wanted Nintendo to buy out SEGA, I only said that is popular demand of late. When I say "I'm not diving too deep into that lake," that meant that I wasn't going to state my opinion and back it up all so boringly.

By not backing it up, you're not choosing to not jump in the lake, you're refusing to go to the lake in the first place. You're merely suggesting the possibility of going to the lake.

Of course people would expect you to back up what you say. Not everything will be taken at face value.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

By not backing it up, you're not choosing to not jump in the lake, you're refusing to go to the lake in the first place. You're merely suggesting the possibility of going to the lake.

Of course people would expect you to back up what you say. Not everything will be taken at face value.

You want backup? Watch this!

http://youtu.be/b6gvtN2SpE0

 

[Opossum]

You want backup? Watch this!

http://youtu.be/b6gvtN2SpE0

This is a video showing one guy saying why it could be a good idea. It isn't really proof that "tons of people want it." There's not even proof that Nintendo would do so. I don't see how it's relevant...

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

This is a video showing one guy saying why it could be a good idea. It isn't really proof that "tons of people want it." There's not even proof that Nintendo would do so. I don't see how it's relevant...

I'm not going to bore you with ten million supporting videos, but if you want more backup, then there are a lot of supporters in the comment section. I can't go around looking for more videos like this though, because I'm a college student, and I got a whole lotta work of my shoulders. I was only active a lot this week because of Spring Break.

And with that, I'm done for now.

 

[Junahu]

While I do agree that Sega has been working closer to Nintendo than they were just a few years ago, that doesn't make them any more Nintendo.

They're as close to being "Nintendo" as a third party could possibly get. When it comes to the Sonic franchise, Sega is frighteningly close to the spirit and essence of a Nintendo developer. That could be because they are shamelessly cribbing from Mario's notebook, but the result is the same; Sonic now feels like a Nintendo franchise.
They are only "not Nintendo" in the legally binding sense.

We have Third Party representation because most people do not make the distinction between a "game on a Nintendo platform", and a "Nintendo game". I believe that Sakurai understands this, and is willing to represent the full breadth of Nintendo's history, rather than just their first/second party efforts.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

They're as close to being "Nintendo" as a third party could possibly get. When it comes to the Sonic franchise, Sega is frighteningly close to the spirit and essence of a Nintendo developer. That could be because they are shamelessly cribbing from Mario's notebook, but the result is the same; Sonic now feels like a Nintendo franchise.
They are only "not Nintendo" in the legally binding sense.

We have Third Party representation because most people do not make the distinction between a "game on a Nintendo platform", and a "Nintendo game". I believe that Sakurai understands this, and is willing to represent the full breadth of Nintendo's history, rather than just their first/second party efforts.

Thank you, this is what I've been trying to say for almost a month now.

 

[Tetra's Tracker]

Comparing the two, I saw some dissimilarity. Shadow still has every right to be playable even if it was fake.

Does he? Every man and his mother know that SSB is a series designed to celebrate Nintendo games and Nintendo history, Sega, Capcom or any other third party company don't come into the equation. Therefore Sonic or any other third party character (including Sonic's furry friends) being in SSB has to be considered a privilege rather than a right.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Does he? Every man and his mother know that SSB is a series designed to celebrate Nintendo games and Nintendo history, Sega, Capcom or any other third party company don't come into the equation. Therefore Sonic or any other third party character (including Sonic's furry friends) being in SSB has to be considered a privilege rather than a right.

But remember, Sonic and his friends have been in countless crossovers with Mario, and Sonic is the third party franchise most supported by Nintendo, and SEGA has returned the favor for over ten years. Seeing as how some people here might say that he's only non Nintendo by branding, that privilege may as well be considered one that never gets revoked.

 

[volbound1700]

I was gonna say the exact same thing, but that would be off topic.

And another thing, I said last week that there's nothing out there that suggests Nintendo buying up Sega, but that was so stupid of me. A lot of fans actually want that to happen, I'm not gonna dive too deep into that lake today though.

I read about that several years ago. I think Nintendo initially thought about it but decided against it. Sega is doing well through some of their third parties (like Creative Assembly). They would be better off staying non-Nintendo. Also, most of their heavier games are more oriented for PC/PS4.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

I read about that several years ago. I think Nintendo initially thought about it but decided against it. Sega is doing well through some of their third parties (like Creative Assembly). They would be better off staying non-Nintendo. Also, most of their heavier games are more oriented for PC/PS4.

Yeah, but you said it has been years since. It's not really impossible, but it's also not likely. Don't quote me on this, but I would not be surprised either way, if they do purchase SEGA or if they don't.

 

[TeamFlareZakk]

I would like to see Knuckles at least as a palette swap, I mean c'mon, what are these palette swaps supposed to be rather than lame?

I want Knuckles to be the red one, look at how lame, none of these change Sonic's color in anyway interesting except the black one, but that should be a Shadow color scheme, right now it's generic.

Other than this, Knuckles would be my pick for a second Sonic character being playable.

If there's no 2nd Sonic character (which is the most likely case), I'd hope that Tails or Eggman get added as Assist Trophies, even if Shadow needs to be scrapped. He can stay as a palette swap.

I definitely agree, just what is his black palette swap in Brawl supposed to be, it should be a Shadow pallet swap instead.

I think Robotnic would be a good Assist Trophy.

 

[RadRedi]

They're as close to being "Nintendo" as a third party could possibly get. When it comes to the Sonic franchise, Sega is frighteningly close to the spirit and essence of a Nintendo developer. That could be because they are shamelessly cribbing from Mario's notebook, but the result is the same; Sonic now feels like a Nintendo franchise.
They are only "not Nintendo" in the legally binding sense.

We have Third Party representation because most people do not make the distinction between a "game on a Nintendo platform", and a "Nintendo game". I believe that Sakurai understands this, and is willing to represent the full breadth of Nintendo's history, rather than just their first/second party efforts.

Man...I had this whole spiel typed out, but it didn't save as a draft. Let me try and recreate it...

Okay, I think that your idea of a third-party character stems from PlayStation All Stars. Said game, while it was created to celebrate Sony, shoe-horns in as many third-parties as possible simply because Sony has few to no first-parties. Therefore, "game on a Sony platform" and "Sony game" are one in the same. HOWEVER, we're talking about a completely different ball game.

Nintendo has first- and second-parties galore, so the concept of a third-party is very limited. SSB was created to celebrate objective and absolute Nintendo, not ill-informed everyman's interpretation of what Nintendo encompasses. If that were the case, then why was our introduction to third-parties Mr. Lukewarm Sony Mascot himself, Solid Snake? Who in their right mind thinks of Snake, of all people, when Nintendo pops into their head? I mean, I'm aware he's had a couple of games on Nintendo soil, but they were all remakes of Sony games, so it's hard to say Metal Gear Solid encompasses any of Nintendo whenever the company has always gotten the short end of the stick.

I know where you're coming from, though. Sakurai has made it obviously clear how the third-parties must be as close to Nintendo as possible this go-around, with Mega Man practically being an HD port of his NES sprite. But this is where you and I don't see eye to eye: You think that, because Sega is working closely to Nintendo, they deserve treatment as if they were Nintendo. I, on the other hand, think that the two working so closely only solidifies Sonic's return. A second rep - especially this early in the Smash series - is short of ridiculous. There are more than enough actual Nintendo characters to fill up the roster, as of now.

Don't take me as a Sonic hater. Despite the series' ups and downs, I'm a big Sonic fan. Metal Sonic is easily one of my favorite video game characters ever. But I don't root for him to get into SSB because I know that the best playable representation is the mascot himself, Sonic. Like I said before, Super Smash Bros celebrates what is Nintendo. Not games on Nintendo platforms, not characters who collide with Nintendo every once in a while, but absolutely Nintendo, with VERY few exceptions. There may be people who don't know the difference between "Nintendo" and "game on Nintendo system", but those kinds of people certainly wouldn't know Ness, Lucas, Marth, Roy, Ike, Mr. Game & Watch, ROB, Olimar, Pit, Ice Climbers, Little Mac, or the like without Smash Bros. So why are these more obscure characters present? Because the game IS Nintendo, not an interpretation of Nintendo.

Okay, I think I just about crammed everything I originally wrote in here.

 

[Luigi#1]

Honestly I can see it happen once some other 1st party series get reps. Metroid is long over due, Kid Icuras would get another first, etc. Once they run out of major Nintendo characters, by then can a second Sonic rep come in. Maybe by the 6th one, maybe even 5th, but as of now, I don't see it happening at all. But I thnk the next Sonic rep would be Tails, then Eggman or Knuckles.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Honestly I can see it happen once some other 1st party series get reps. Metroid is long over due, Kid Icuras would get another first, etc. Once they run out of major Nintendo characters, by then can a second Sonic rep come in. Maybe by the 6th one, maybe even 5th, but as of now, I don't see it happening at all. But I thnk the next Sonic rep would be Tails, then Eggman or Knuckles.

Well, seeing as how the ties between Nintendo and SEGA are strong, I thinking MAYBE that Nintendo will buy up SEGA between this title and the next

 

[Luigi#1]

Well, seeing as how the ties between Nintendo and SEGA are strong, I thinking MAYBE that Nintendo will buy up SEGA between this title and the next

Well, sorta unlikely, but eh, could happen. But hasn't happened yet, so...no 2nd Sonic rep for Smash 4. Like I said, I can only see it happening in the future, like 5 or 6.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Well, sorta unlikely, but eh, could happen. But hasn't happened yet, so...no 2nd Sonic rep for Smash 4. Like I said, I can only see it happening in the future, like 5 or 6.

Yeah, I honestly don't see Sakurai playing along with the Year of Sonic because he did not play along with the Year of Luigi at all. Luigi only got in when he did as a tie in to Dream Team.

 

[Luigi#1]

Yeah, I honestly don't see Sakurai playing along with the Year of Sonic because he did not play along with the Year of Luigi at all. Luigi only got in when he did as a tie in to Dream Team.

When the hell did Sonic do to get a year and when was his anniversary this year and since when was he neglected? That makes the Year of Luigi not special anymore great for a week I'll be mad at Sega.
Well he said in his comment for Luigi that he announced him earlier than he would have, but yeah. I wouldn't really mind it, but I don't see it this time. Also no way in heck will Shadow be second. Like, Tails and Knuckles first.

 

[Dairz]

Yeah, I honestly don't see Sakurai playing along with the Year of Sonic because he did not play along with the Year of Luigi at all. Luigi only got in when he did as a tie in to Dream Team.

"A REAL pic of the day--Luigi joins the battle! In prior games, we've never introduced Luigi before release, but why not? This is the "Year of Luigi," after all."

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

When the hell did Sonic do to get a year and when was his anniversary this year and since when was he neglected? That makes the Year of Luigi not special anymore great for a week I'll be mad at Sega.
Well he said in his comment for Luigi that he announced him earlier than he would have, but yeah. I wouldn't really mind it, but I don't see it this time. Also no way in heck will Shadow be second. Like, Tails and Knuckles first.

Well, if/when Nintendo buys up SEGA, we could expect a lot of reps. Here's my prediction if that happens
Sonic
Tails
Knuckles
Amy
Shadow

 

[Luigi#1]

Well, if/when Nintendo buys up SEGA, we could expect a lot of reps. Here's my prediction if that happens
Sonic
Tails
Knuckles
Amy
Shadow

Yeah, but not all four. Especially over the course of one game. Even if Nintendo buys Sega, Sonic won't get as much special treatment as Mario, or Pokemon, or Zelda.

 

[Substitution]

While I highly doubt this will happen.

If by some logic we do (particularly with planets aligning), it'll be Tails.
Being the Luigi of the franchise does wonders in terms of relevance.

 

[SonicMario]

While I'd be ok with Sonic basically being promised to be in for the rest of the series. I think The 5th Smash Bros. is really going to be the one where it's a little more possible for a 2nd Sonic rep. Cause after 4 games there's really not alot of characters left that would really excite people in terms of Nintendo only. (As in, characters that are relatively known in the mainstream sense that would excite people instead of having to reach for something obscure so most people go like "...Who?") Even Brawl really had a majority of the Nintendo All-Stars in already. Just a few notable exclusions including Little Mac, Ridley, and King K. Rool which one is confirmed and the others are potential newcomers for SSB4.

Nintendo may turn to Sega/The Other 3rd Parties for more characters for the fifth smash bros. when they're just about out of ideas for exciting newcomers, and by then maybe Sonic Boom and other games will have started a bit of a trend in Sonic games where more then just Sonic is playable again. Where Tails, Knuckles, and even Amy are a possibility. (BTW don't worry I don't mean they'll include the Sonic Boom designs for the characters by mentioning how that can start a trend. As Sega did confirm that Sonic Boom will stay it's own thing. They'd still use the normal ones we usually see)