Social Sonic Says: Ultimate

[SonicX2k0]

i had a hard time last night faceing ROB any tips ?

 

[Heartstring]

i had a hard time last night faceing ROB any tips ?

Well, being a former ROB main myself, I want to say 'get better' because he's a pretty dire character compared to us and other high quality characters.

But seriously, just don't commit to things in neutral, be ready to shield whatever projectile he uses, and once he's off the ground, just keep him there. he has no landing options whatsoever and sonic can abuse that with his crazy speed

 

[Camalange]

ROB is far better than any ROB main will ever give him credit for.

 

[Heartstring]

ROB is far better than any ROB main will ever give him credit for.

That's because ROB mains know his weaknesses and know how to punish them. and they're pretty glaring problems. having no landing options in this game is a huge deal.

 

[Camalange]

But they'll never admit all of ROB's other fantastic assets.

Every character has weaknesses. ROB players just can't handle being juggled and whine about it.

 

[ROOOOY!]

That's because ROB mains know his weaknesses and know how to punish them. and they're pretty glaring problems. having no landing options in this game is a huge deal.

I think that applies for any character. The best person against Sonic is...a Sonic main. Damned if we let on about anything though. Sonic doesn't have great landong options either.

 

[SonicX2k0]

Well, being a former ROB main myself, I want to say 'get better' because he's a pretty dire character compared to us and other high quality characters.

But seriously, just don't commit to things in neutral, be ready to shield whatever projectile he uses, and once he's off the ground, just keep him there. he has no landing options whatsoever and sonic can abuse that with his crazy speed

i see thank you very much

 

[SonicX2k0]

yeahhhh most of of the time he just kept playing with the edge and spamming the edge part piss me off the most but i see now what i most do

 

[Heartstring]

But they'll never admit all of ROB's other fantastic assets.

Every character has weaknesses. ROB players just can't handle being juggled and whine about it.

Which fantastic assets are those, if I may? Because while beyond the sheer lack of landing options (and ROY!, I understand ours aren't amazing, but we have medicore options in abundance while rob has very little) He's fairly solid, he doesn't have anything that sticks out to me as being great. He reminds me of his brawl Incarnation with a few buffs and slightly more nerfs in places.

 

[Camalange]

ROB was far better in Brawl than given credit for too. There's no chance in any universe that he belongs that low in the tiers.

He has so many tools to keep people out. All I heard ROBs do is complain about how they get juggled yet he has like a million ways to prevent it. I can't debate Smash 4 frame data but in Brawl at least he had fast, long ranged tilts. Utilt could combo into itself, along with Dtilt. Spotdodge > Dsmash was stupid easy and safe. He has like everything BUT landing options. He has **** to keep you out and still has safe options if you get past his bull****. The only other debatable thing was that his KO options weren't the best, but like, that's almost everyone in Brawl. His one "glaring" weakness was being juggled easily from below due to poor landing options and a larger hurtbox... Sob.

He's by no means top tier, but is easily high-mid.

My experience is from playing against ROBs every day of my life back in PA during the Brawl days.

And as you said, ROB doesn't seem terribly different from Brawl so it's really up to the players to give up on him or not.

 

[SonicX2k0]

lol im fighting a ROB right now

 

[SonicX2k0]

and i won lol

 

[SonicX2k0]

http://www.twitch.tv/sonicx2k0

 

[Camalange]

Please refrain from double (triple...) posting. There's an edit button for posts. You can just add more.

 

[SonicX2k0]

http://www.twitch.tv/sonicx2k0

sorry

 

[SonicX2k0]

sorry

i did that so i can post a link i had to get 10 post's sorry

 

[Heartstring]

Before I continue, I'd like to say I agree he's better than the brawl tier list says he is, He belongs high-mid/borderline. similar position to pit/peach/etc. But I also disagree with a lot of what you've said. i'm also a huge fan of data and debate when it comes to things like this, so thank you

He has so many tools to keep people out. All I heard ROBs do is complain about how they get juggled yet he has like a million ways to prevent it.

pre-wall TL;DR: R.O.B's raw keepaway is shut down by walking and shielding for the most part.

This is true, He had two good projectiles and his rather nice spacing tilts. However there are inherent flaws with these that stop them from being anything beyond 'good'. First off, both of his projectiles have charge time, whether manually or automatically. This means he can't relentlessly spam projectiles, and must retreat after expending his gyro/laser. He of course has ftilt to space against poorly executed approaches. However it's a little known fact that his Ftilt actually has his hurtbox extend forward BEFORE the hitbox. I'm sure you can see why this is a problem when it comes to stuffing approaches.

On top of this, his tools require him to retreat against a smart opponent, and Rob - unlike most of the superior campers like falco - hasn't got a particularly solid option for getting stage control back from near the edge. This loops back around to his poor mobility, which Is the 'main weakness' I previously mentioned.

I can't debate Smash 4 frame data but in Brawl at least he had fast, long ranged tilts. Utilt could combo into itself, along with Dtilt.

Utilt had absolutely no utility outside of AA/platform pressure,so that's hardly worth mentioning here. Dtilt is good, true. but you could always shieldgrab it.

Spotdodge > Dsmash was stupid easy and safe. He has like everything BUT landing options.

Sorry, but this is just completely false. While Dsmash was fast to come out, it was extremely punishable on shield, you could always SDI out of it even if you got hit, and if you SDI'd out and had a fairly fast move, you could actually punish him ON HIT. This is the sort of tactic that worked on no-one good after 2010.

He has **** to keep you out and still has safe options if you get past his bull****. The only other debatable thing was that his KO options weren't the best, but like, that's almost everyone in Brawl. His one "glaring" weakness was being juggled easily from below due to poor landing options and a larger hurtbox... Sob.

We went over the keepaway and safe options, which were good, but nothing major. As you said he lacked kill moves. Once again, a common problem in brawl but it was heightened by the fact that ROB's best landing option was also his best kill move (Nair) which meant it got terribly stale. Rob had to make a hard read, good edgeguard, or grind till near 200% to kill with one of his safer options.
The poor mobility is more of a problem than just 'cant land', it covered everything and limited movement everywhere.

Also, He's received mainly 'stealth' changes in smash4. Here we go: + for buff, - for nerf

-Dtilt doesn't combo into itself, or anything else. just gonna get grabbed for it
-Ftilt range GREATLY nerfed, barely worth using anymore
=Fsmash got even slower and got sourspots, making it only a good kill move at point blank.But Fsmash got increased range (albeit, a deceptive animation)
=Dsmash Got mildly slower in all fronts, but now sends horizontally, making edgeguards easier
+Usmash got a startup hitbox to help it land it on grounded opponents
-Nair got WAY weaker, lost all Kill potential, hitbox became smaller (read: more sensible) too.
-Fair animation got slower total animation, can no longer do another aerial after a shorthop Fair. It also lost it's lingering hitbox, making edgeguarding much harder.
+Uair got WAY stronger, becoming a solid kill move, It links much better too!
-Bair lost it's lingering body hitbox
=Laser now hits vertically. Doesn't really change much.
+Side-B became a pseudo-nado attack and gained a uppercut hit. It became a much better offensive tool (from 'awful' to 'decent') and is still just as semi-competent as reflecting projectiles.
=Gyro can no longer kill when being fired from a high charge. In exchange, it shoots faster. The lack of glide-tossing severely hurts his gyro options too.
-He can no longer perform aerials while rising with Up-B. giving him less defensive coverage when recovering.
Gyro cancelling is now almost impossible, making wavebounce gyro-cancels much harder and limiting landing options.
-Grab range got decreased.
=Dthrow can be used for low% combos, and potential kill mixups are higher percents (more of a game mechanics change than anything) but now does less damage
+Uthrow does more damage now, still kills at 150%+

So there you have it, He's okay, but nothing special in this game.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Shado on stream right now on vgbootcamp <3

 

[NotLiquid]

Zero pointed out some stuff about Diddy Kong on Twitter which can aid the matchup. Evidently his recovery is incredibly gimpable - knock him out while he's charging his rocket barrels and he's done. Sonic seems like he would be fast enough to pull it off, especially with his NAir.

On the flipside, one of Sonic's best stages, Halberd, is probably looking to be Diddy's best stage as well due to the low vertical blast zone.

 

[Espy Rose]

Or you can just drop a spring and avoid getting hit by the barrels altogether.

 

[Heartstring]

On the flipside, one of Sonic's best stages, Halberd, is probably looking to be Diddy's best stage as well due to the low vertical blast zone.

P....People are using Halberd? STILL? after the vertical blastzone got even more dumb?

I'm done. **** this gay earth

 

[Camalange]

Before I continue, I'd like to say I agree he's better than the brawl tier list says he is, He belongs high-mid/borderline. similar position to pit/peach/etc. But I also disagree with a lot of what you've said. i'm also a huge fan of data and debate when it comes to things like this, so thank you

Hey, anytime. As you can tell, I agree with the core of what you're going to say. I think the current Brawl tier list is a joke and unfortunately it's never going to change because that game is on its last leg and really the only character on that list that matters is MK.

Glad you're not taking my statements as an attack, as I've learned that the only way to really carry yourself on this site is to make bold statements.

pre-wall TL;DR: R.O.B's raw keepaway is shut down by walking and shielding for the most part.

My issue with this though is that like so much of Brawl is walking and shielding. The only characters that were safe against shield were top tiers, hence why they're top tier. MK being able to safely dair repeatedly, IC's just straight up wanting you to shield so they can grab, etc. So if anything, this only enforces that ROB isn't top tier, which I always agreed with.

This is true, He had two good projectiles and his rather nice spacing tilts. However there are inherent flaws with these that stop them from being anything beyond 'good'. First off, both of his projectiles have charge time, whether manually or automatically. This means he can't relentlessly spam projectiles, and must retreat after expending his gyro/laser. He of course has ftilt to space against poorly executed approaches. However it's a little known fact that his Ftilt actually has his hurtbox extend forward BEFORE the hitbox. I'm sure you can see why this is a problem when it comes to stuffing approaches.

One of ROB's biggest setback is his hurtbox, which I addressed briefly. Admittedly wasn't aware that his was extended before the hitbox on Ftilt, I just thought it was in general extended.

I do acknowledge that while I still believe ROB has a really good projectile game, it's not on the same level as Snake or Falco's, hence their top-tierness. Even then though, with the time between each projectile, you're still forced to play ROB's game if you don't have your own projectile to combat it... Other than shield. Sonic in some sense could sort of deal with this because of running and powershielding, but smart ROBs could really **** you up with a well placed gyro. Those ****ers had lingering hitboxes and were hard to pick up, so if you wasted your time trying to handle it you'll just be eating damage and leaving yourself vulnerable to follow-ups. Could really ruin ledge options (I knew ROBs that could perfectly launch a gyro right by the edge) and he just had a lot of tools to force you into his own game. His camp game definitely has holes, but it's still solid.

On top of this, his tools require him to retreat against a smart opponent, and Rob - unlike most of the superior campers like falco - hasn't got a particularly solid option for getting stage control back from near the edge. This loops back around to his poor mobility, which Is the 'main weakness' I previously mentioned.

Admittedly ROB is one of the characters I most consistently bair stage spiked. I feel like all ROBs went for Fairs or Lasers from the ledge. Sonic's ledge game is kind of ass too though.

Utilt had absolutely no utility outside of AA/platform pressure,so that's hardly worth mentioning here. Dtilt is good, true. but you could always shieldgrab it.

I'd say it was viable platform pressure and close quarter combo starter. I think that qualifies as utility. You can technically shieldgrab anything really, so I don't like that angle of debate. That's like when Sonics would debate matchups using the term "mindgames".

Sorry, but this is just completely false. While Dsmash was fast to come out, it was extremely punishable on shield, you could always SDI out of it even if you got hit, and if you SDI'd out and had a fairly fast move, you could actually punish him ON HIT. This is the sort of tactic that worked on no-one good after 2010.

My Brawl career sort of ended around '10, so maybe this is the geezer in me, but a smart ROB would use Dsmash as more of a counter. Spotdodging your attack and immediately with the Dsmash due to it's minimal startup. I can't speak for sure on if Sonic did or did not have a viable on hit option even if he escaped the attack, but I'll take your word on it as a general character response.

We went over the keepaway and safe options, which were good, but nothing major. As you said he lacked kill moves. Once again, a common problem in brawl but it was heightened by the fact that ROB's best landing option was also his best kill move (Nair) which meant it got terribly stale. Rob had to make a hard read, good edgeguard, or grind till near 200% to kill with one of his safer options.
The poor mobility is more of a problem than just 'cant land', it covered everything and limited movement everywhere.

Yeah, my ROB friends always complained about the Nair thing. I guess I found it hard to sympathize with and I once made this chart (in jest):

Also, He's received mainly 'stealth' changes in smash4. Here we go: + for buff, - for nerf

Noted.

So there you have it, He's okay, but nothing special in this game.

I don't have much more to add just because, as I said, I don't believe he's top tier, but evidently you and I agree that he was at least high-mid or so in Brawl, and I wouldn't be surprised if he still had the tools to deserve about the same spot but be placed low because lol.

 

[Kenith]

So I played Sonic for the first time on Wii U, this weekend, a lot.
Wow, he is so much better than Brawl. Like, he is actually fun to play! I'm very happy because while I am a Sonic fan, I stopped using him in Brawl because he was kind of...not fun. That is no longer an issue.

 

[Heartstring]

Oooh boy, here we go *cracks knuckles* debates are fun if you can actually have a reasonable one with someone!

My issue with this though is that like so much of Brawl is walking and shielding. The only characters that were safe against shield were top tiers, hence why they're top tier. MK being able to safely dair repeatedly, IC's just straight up wanting you to shield so they can grab, etc. So if anything, this only enforces that ROB isn't top tier, which I always agreed with.

Yeah, he certainly isn't top tier. A lot of characters have solid options against shield, even further down the tier list than rob. I'll go back to this in more detail, But this is one of his other large weaknesses.

One of ROB's biggest setback is his hurtbox, which I addressed briefly. Admittedly wasn't aware that his was extended before the hitbox on Ftilt, I just thought it was in general extended.

His hurtbox is a janky size, but it ultimately wouldn't matter all that much if he could move. The ftilt thing is just icing on the cake of his lack of options against a defensive opponent, once again addressed below

I do acknowledge that while I still believe ROB has a really good projectile game, it's not on the same level as Snake or Falco's, hence their top-tierness. Even then though, with the time between each projectile, you're still forced to play ROB's game if you don't have your own projectile to combat it... Other than shield. Sonic in some sense could sort of deal with this because of running and powershielding, but smart ROBs could really **** you up with a well placed gyro. Those ****ers had lingering hitboxes and were hard to pick up, so if you wasted your time trying to handle it you'll just be eating damage and leaving yourself vulnerable to follow-ups. Could really ruin ledge options (I knew ROBs that could perfectly launch a gyro right by the edge) and he just had a lot of tools to force you into his own game. His camp game definitely has holes, but it's still solid.

I'd say it was viable platform pressure and close quarter combo starter. I think that qualifies as utility. You can technically shieldgrab anything really, so I don't like that angle of debate. That's like when Sonics would debate matchups using the term "mindgames".

Being 'Technically' able to shieldgrab anything is cheap escape. First, Some moves were simply safe on shield no matter what (first example that comes to mind: ZSS Dsmash, 0frames on block), and secondly, smart use (a.k.a: good spacing) of most moves would make them safe on block.
See here is the problem with Rob, other than 'no way of landing'. At a base level I agree, his camp game was and is one of the better ones in the game, outside of the top tiers i would say the best alongside Pit. But the biggest problem he had was that shielding TRULY beat everything he had, And this left him at a huge issue when in a position with he has **** all stage to work with.
A lot of characters...Hell, almost ANY character had an option against shielding of some sort. Something that could pressure the opponent into retreating or using a more commiting defensive option (like a dodge/roll), OR they have an option for escaping a positional disadvantage (E.G: Falco side-b). Most of the top tiers have a multiples of these but almost every character has at least one. I'll give you a few examples to compare and contrast, And I'll even give the downsides for each character too in order to not seem biased!:
has Spaced jab-cancel/Nair Mixup pressure to whittle down a shield, combine this with his multiple high shield damage attacks (Ftilt/Usmash) and Shield stabbers (Dtilt, Bair) and you can scare an opponent into spotdodging (almost guarantee-ing a free jab combo) or retreating. The downside is that less than perfect spacing will result in a punish from the majority of the cast.
Can use side-b to grab people out a normally safely positioned shield. He could also attempt to thunderstorm on their shield (which is safe if he goes behind them during cooldown) and force a panic button, retreat, or even reverse the positional (dis)advantage. Of course, all of Ganon's anti-shield options lose to fast moves.
Has fairly scary mixups on shield. Thanks to an obscenely fast set of aerials, that you can buffer airdodge with to avoid shieldgrabs, a frame2 jab, and QQ-worthy grab setups. If he Fairs your shield you have to either commit to a read and hope you chose the correct potential punish, or roll out of the pressure. Unluckily for Luigi, His actualy approach options are awful and once you're out of his vortex, you can just push him towards the ledge again.
Has perfectly spaced Ftilt. He can also Glide-toss past if he has hold of his gyro (in this scenario, it's likely the opponent has shielded it already, and it's not in your hands. Also, if you have Gyro, then spaced Ftilt isn't an option and vice versa because game mechanics)

...You see what I'm getting at here? All 3 of those characters are objectively worse than rob too!

My Brawl career sort of ended around '10, so maybe this is the geezer in me, but a smart ROB would use Dsmash as more of a counter. Spotdodging your attack and immediately with the Dsmash due to it's minimal startup. I can't speak for sure on if Sonic did or did not have a viable on hit option even if he escaped the attack, but I'll take your word on it as a general character response.

This is fairly true. But at the same time, if you used a move THAT laggy that was within the range of Robs Dsmash, Then it was a bad move and you deserve to take damage. Also, Sonic could jab/dtilt it when SDI-ing out. Only the slowest of the slow didnt have options to punish the dsmash on hit, which is a bit sad really.

Yeah, my ROB friends always complained about the Nair thing. I guess I found it hard to sympathize with and I once made this chart (in jest)

I can't lie, The hitbox on it is dumb as hell, particularly near the end, and justly got nerfed in smash4. But it was such a utility move, it was constantly stale and - once again - it always lost to shielding from any decent character.

I don't have much more to add just because, as I said, I don't believe he's top tier, but evidently you and I agree that he was at least high-mid or so in Brawl, and I wouldn't be surprised if he still had the tools to deserve about the same spot but be placed low because lol.

Yeah, he belonged roughly where he was in Brawl, but his tools ultimately worked well in the brawl metagame, I undoubtedly see Rob not fitting the apparently more aggresively geared smash4. It's a shame because I love the character but he doesn't hasn't got the tools to cut it.

 

[Espy Rose]

So I played Sonic for the first time on Wii U, this weekend, a lot.
Wow, he is so much better than Brawl. Like, he is actually fun to play! I'm very happy because while I am a Sonic fan, I stopped using him in Brawl because he was kind of...not fun. That is no longer an issue.

You aren't a Sonic fan if you didn't play him in Brawl despite his weaknesses.

 

[Camalange]

Oooh boy, here we go *cracks knuckles* debates are fun if you can actually have a reasonable one with someone!

gg wp

I see your points and they're all pretty fair. Anything else I'd say at this point would be redundancy. I just felt that the mindset of most ROB players was just to complain about it... /hope (I know that one incident shouldn't reflect on the whole community but it's one of my favorites). Like, they'd all complain about being juggled and MK and it's like yo everyone hates MK get over it.

I'm curious how this game plays out. With characters like Sheik and Diddy currently being really popular, I just don't know. This game still feels more defensively oriented like Brawl, yet some aggressive tactics pay off... It's a weird balance. I could see ROB ending up in a similar position as the last game.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Well one thing to consider is the inevitable patches that can either nerf, or buff characters. That and come next spring we'll have to deal with mewtwo. Though i feel like we'll see a big tweaking to the cast with mewtwos arrival

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

So is this board just filled with Sonic players from Brawl?

It's been forever since I was on the old Brawl Sonic Boards but I see the old jokes(Steak) live on.

 

[Camalange]

Well one thing to consider is the inevitable patches that can either nerf, or buff characters. That and come next spring we'll have to deal with mewtwo. Though i feel like we'll see a big tweaking to the cast with mewtwos arrival

I'm hoping they don't continue to make big patches. I understand for now as the game is early and I think they used a lot of things as a way to test for bugs, glitches, and obvious fixes. Just want the game to have room to breathe before people ***** and moan for patches.

So is this board just filled with Sonic players from Brawl?

It's been forever since I was on the old Brawl Sonic Boards but I see the old jokes(Steak) live on.

A lot of us are still around. We don't let jokes die.

There are a fair amount of newcomers though, but we sorta took command. Having prior knowledge of Brawl and being able to share what's the same and what has changed. It's easier for us to do the bulk of the research and testing as we already have a base and advanced understanding of the character.

Not to say there haven't been valid contributions from people new to the scene though, but Brawl Sonic boards definitely live on...

 

[Kinzer]

Sonic has some big feet during his jumps for some reason.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Well to be fair when sonic jumps in the original games his feet stretch in a similar fashion as a way for them to show motion. Kind of neat that they tried to replicate that, even if it may be unintentional.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Sonic has some big feet during his jumps for some reason.

I've meant to post about it for a long time now. I was trying to get a still image from training mode on the Wii U but I just can't pause at the right moment, even at 1/4x. Strangely, it was way easier to get those on the 3DS.

I know I could've just recorded a video to seek that specific frame but, you know.. laziness.

 

[Kinzer]

Just because this thread gets a bit more traffic than the video archive for the time-being, I would be really appreciative if anybody could give me some word of advice from my match with Lycan's Diddy Kong.
It's honestly not fair how Diddy gets a guaranteed combo-starter at low %s which leads into a 50-50 tech-trap that possibly leads to death at higher %s.

 

[jordanm43444]

Just because this thread gets a bit more traffic than the video archive for the time-being, I would be really appreciative if anybody could give me some word of advice from my match with Lycan's Diddy Kong.
It's honestly not fair how Diddy gets a guaranteed combo-starter at low %s which leads into a 50-50 tech-trap that possibly leads to death at higher %s.

Well, to be fair, so do we

 

[Camalange]

Just because this thread gets a bit more traffic than the video archive for the time-being, I would be really appreciative if anybody could give me some word of advice from my match with Lycan's Diddy Kong.
It's honestly not fair how Diddy gets a guaranteed combo-starter at low %s which leads into a 50-50 tech-trap that possibly leads to death at higher %s.

Hey, wish I had more time atm to watch more of it but one thing I can tell you is that the way you lost your first stock was avoidable. Diddy Kong's Dthrow shenanigans are pretty free, but they're not guaranteed at EVERY %. With proper DI (or sometimes even without it) you can time an airdodge to avoid followup. He didn't hit you until his second try with the Uair and you didn't even go for an airdodge or anything after being completely out of range for his first Uair. Definitely looks like you fell asleep on your options and just gave in.

That's all for now, only because you specifically mentioned the combo and I think too many people are letting themselves fall prey to it

 

[kataridragon]

When I watch this diddy vs sonic match I notice that their is a distinct lack of mind games. Every attack and movement is direct. I also see a lot of aerial spin dashes, not the best option and will limit your options in the jump cancel.

I bet you could have gotten more mileage with proper spacing, mind games, and some defense.

Sonic is good at rush down but that doesn't mean that is his only option.
This is my take on the first match.

 

[Espy Rose]

Probably late as hell, but True Blue and I found out how to short hop sideB and downB at will. It was bugging me for the longest time how I was doing it. You just gotta jump as soon as you hit the ground from the sideB hop or an ASC.

I feel like learning the short hop and doing it consistently is going to be incredibly important. Getting to the ground after a spin is a big deal against characters you can't land safely against.

 

[Camalange]

we knew that tho espy

2slo

 

[Espy Rose]

Good then. People need to talk about it more though. It's imperative.

 

[Camalange]

I want to know more about the spindash connecting with shield shenanigans.

I think was worng about being able to short hop it, but sometimes when it connects with shield it slows down and does a ton of hits, and you can VSDJ during it for more hits on shield. I tried experimenting a bit again and still haven't been able to pin point the cause of it... Maybe it's dependent on when your opponent shields and when they let go, thus affecting the momentum of the spin?