FightingGameGuy
Smash Apprentice
I've copied my report on Sonic I posted in the Official Questions for E for All thread where I signed up to report on Sonic. My report was getting buried there.
Attacks
A sequence: standard three hit, pops them away on last hit.
Dash attack: sonic spins at them. Was able to kill people in sudden death. Knocks upward I think.
Tilts
forward tilt: sticks out his foot, respectable (killable) knockback
dtilt: foot again, this one pops them up for juggling, probably won't kill without ridiculous percentage.
uptilt: looks similar to Capt. Falcon's up smash, pops them up but probably won't ever kill them. Nonetheless its good for setting his opponent for air moves.
Smashes
Forward smash: winds up his arm during the charge, attacks with a short range punch. Knockback seems strong (nothing special for forward smashes) but the attack is fast and lacks range making it somewhat tough to connect with against a non-nood opponent like luigis
Down smash: spins dashes back forth over a short distance. Think ness' yoyo but with sonic as the yoyo. Has a somewhat low arc (maybe 45 degrees) and good knockback upon hitting.
Up smash: Like bowser's, sonic does a short jump, and hangs at its apex for a bit doing a spin. Enemy's hit are caught in the spin until the last hit when they go flying out. Nonetheless, the knockback is very, very weak for a smash. Generally inferior to his uptilt for starting his upair game.
Airs
upair: A flip kick similar to fox's upair. First he splits his legs apart and out capable of hitting enemies a bit to his sides as well with no significant knock back. Then he kicks up knocking his opponents up with significant knockback.
bair: sticks his leg out. Strong knockback.
fair: drills at the enemy head first rotating his body. Last hit as weak knockback probably not enough to kill even in sudden death but knocks them far enough away to prevent sonic from continuing to attack them without altering his trajectory somehow (one of his b moves?) or landing.
dair: a diving kick similar to captain falcon's aerial downb. Pauses in midair, then going flying down at an angle. Has significant lag upon hitting the ground. Decent knockback though is horizontal. It seems like it might be cancelable?
nair: Sonic spins in place. Can have killable knockback but sometimes doesn't (maybe only on the first frame?). Nonetheless, lacking an extended hitbox, its somewhat difficult to hit your opponent with this move especially compared to the bair.
Bs
Neutral B: homing attack. Sonic floats up spinning for up to about a second if you charge it, then going flying at the nearest opponent. It has knockback that can kill, but will generally hit a grounded opponent into the ground since it comes from the air.
UpB: spring. As already demonstrated, sonic goes way high, and the sping lasts for a significant bit when used on the ground (however, unlike in sonic games, it must be jumped on to be activated and cannot simply be run into (I think)). Sonic gains control very quickly (sometime before the apex), and can perform any a move. He can also perform airdodges. He definitely cannot perform another upb but I'm not certain whether he can perform his other bmoves. It does hit in the initial ascent, but doesn't knock back at all. Nonetheless I've opened a smash ball with this move. If used in air the spring goes tumbling down and bop people. It doesn't deal significant damage or any knockback but is a great way to annoy people. Sonic will not snap to the ledge as he passes it, unlike many characters upbs now.
Side B- Jumping Spin attack: Visually sonic becomes a ball with faint blue ridges portuding from it. chargable for about a second. Sonic spin dashes at his opponent. If done on the ground he jumps barely (about the three quarters the height of his short hop, or maybe his own height). Knocks back with a high upward angle. The thing is though, that if he hits he also jumps up and it can be canceled at any time with any attack. At low percents then, he can easily follow up this attack with aerials although no one I had seen had quite mastered this. Sonic can also turn around during this move.
Down B - Grounded spin attack. Can be charged by repeatedly hitting b. Does an attack similar to Jigglypuff's, but seems less seriously momentum based. It might have some no flinch properties. Like the Side B it can also be canceled with other moves. (Update I remember this from against Super Sonic, which any attack cancels so it might not be a special property of the move)
Spin Dash notes:
1. the oddest thing about the spin dashes is that he moves slower during them than he does during his run. Charging them might increase their speed but it still seems they're slower than his awesome running speed. The speed is however, better than his horizontal air speed, so they can be used to aid his recovery though his spring jump launches him so high you probably will never need to use them in this manner.
2. All of Sonic's spin attacks are very distinguishable! They are not suitable for mind games! Stop saying this, its simply not true.
[Homing B: He floats straight up during the charge. Travels through the air leaving a after trail like in Sonic Adventure
SideB: Charges in place, he has faint blue ridges. Tends to hop along the ground
DownB: Charges in place, makes spin dash charge sound "Keee" He travels only along the ground, no ridges.
RunningA: Comes from a run.
Nair: sparkle effects, follows jumps normal trajectory.
Final Smash - Super Sonic: Screen pauses, chaos emeralds circle into sonic and he does his dbz impression. As of now, sonic cannot perform any attacks while in super sonic form, unlike yoshi. In fact, he cannot even land or pick up items. On the otherhand, he deals significant damage and knockback by simply touching people. He can also perform perhaps the ultimate cheesy ledge grap, by simply floating at the ledge. Pro. Sonic can dash across back and forth madly but that can simply be dodged. Instead, you slow sonic down upon approach and try to stand on your opponent, or where his dodge will end. Once you get the hang of controlling his inertia its relatively easy to keep standing where your opponent is going to go and keep hitting them until they die off the top or side of the stage. Going full speed at your opponents is also not that useful since they can attack at the same time and avoid taking damage as Gimpy points out.
Attacks
A sequence: standard three hit, pops them away on last hit.
Dash attack: sonic spins at them. Was able to kill people in sudden death. Knocks upward I think.
Tilts
forward tilt: sticks out his foot, respectable (killable) knockback
dtilt: foot again, this one pops them up for juggling, probably won't kill without ridiculous percentage.
uptilt: looks similar to Capt. Falcon's up smash, pops them up but probably won't ever kill them. Nonetheless its good for setting his opponent for air moves.
Smashes
Forward smash: winds up his arm during the charge, attacks with a short range punch. Knockback seems strong (nothing special for forward smashes) but the attack is fast and lacks range making it somewhat tough to connect with against a non-nood opponent like luigis
Down smash: spins dashes back forth over a short distance. Think ness' yoyo but with sonic as the yoyo. Has a somewhat low arc (maybe 45 degrees) and good knockback upon hitting.
Up smash: Like bowser's, sonic does a short jump, and hangs at its apex for a bit doing a spin. Enemy's hit are caught in the spin until the last hit when they go flying out. Nonetheless, the knockback is very, very weak for a smash. Generally inferior to his uptilt for starting his upair game.
Airs
upair: A flip kick similar to fox's upair. First he splits his legs apart and out capable of hitting enemies a bit to his sides as well with no significant knock back. Then he kicks up knocking his opponents up with significant knockback.
bair: sticks his leg out. Strong knockback.
fair: drills at the enemy head first rotating his body. Last hit as weak knockback probably not enough to kill even in sudden death but knocks them far enough away to prevent sonic from continuing to attack them without altering his trajectory somehow (one of his b moves?) or landing.
dair: a diving kick similar to captain falcon's aerial downb. Pauses in midair, then going flying down at an angle. Has significant lag upon hitting the ground. Decent knockback though is horizontal. It seems like it might be cancelable?
nair: Sonic spins in place. Can have killable knockback but sometimes doesn't (maybe only on the first frame?). Nonetheless, lacking an extended hitbox, its somewhat difficult to hit your opponent with this move especially compared to the bair.
Bs
Neutral B: homing attack. Sonic floats up spinning for up to about a second if you charge it, then going flying at the nearest opponent. It has knockback that can kill, but will generally hit a grounded opponent into the ground since it comes from the air.
UpB: spring. As already demonstrated, sonic goes way high, and the sping lasts for a significant bit when used on the ground (however, unlike in sonic games, it must be jumped on to be activated and cannot simply be run into (I think)). Sonic gains control very quickly (sometime before the apex), and can perform any a move. He can also perform airdodges. He definitely cannot perform another upb but I'm not certain whether he can perform his other bmoves. It does hit in the initial ascent, but doesn't knock back at all. Nonetheless I've opened a smash ball with this move. If used in air the spring goes tumbling down and bop people. It doesn't deal significant damage or any knockback but is a great way to annoy people. Sonic will not snap to the ledge as he passes it, unlike many characters upbs now.
Side B- Jumping Spin attack: Visually sonic becomes a ball with faint blue ridges portuding from it. chargable for about a second. Sonic spin dashes at his opponent. If done on the ground he jumps barely (about the three quarters the height of his short hop, or maybe his own height). Knocks back with a high upward angle. The thing is though, that if he hits he also jumps up and it can be canceled at any time with any attack. At low percents then, he can easily follow up this attack with aerials although no one I had seen had quite mastered this. Sonic can also turn around during this move.
Down B - Grounded spin attack. Can be charged by repeatedly hitting b. Does an attack similar to Jigglypuff's, but seems less seriously momentum based. It might have some no flinch properties. Like the Side B it can also be canceled with other moves. (Update I remember this from against Super Sonic, which any attack cancels so it might not be a special property of the move)
Spin Dash notes:
1. the oddest thing about the spin dashes is that he moves slower during them than he does during his run. Charging them might increase their speed but it still seems they're slower than his awesome running speed. The speed is however, better than his horizontal air speed, so they can be used to aid his recovery though his spring jump launches him so high you probably will never need to use them in this manner.
2. All of Sonic's spin attacks are very distinguishable! They are not suitable for mind games! Stop saying this, its simply not true.
[Homing B: He floats straight up during the charge. Travels through the air leaving a after trail like in Sonic Adventure
SideB: Charges in place, he has faint blue ridges. Tends to hop along the ground
DownB: Charges in place, makes spin dash charge sound "Keee" He travels only along the ground, no ridges.
RunningA: Comes from a run.
Nair: sparkle effects, follows jumps normal trajectory.
Final Smash - Super Sonic: Screen pauses, chaos emeralds circle into sonic and he does his dbz impression. As of now, sonic cannot perform any attacks while in super sonic form, unlike yoshi. In fact, he cannot even land or pick up items. On the otherhand, he deals significant damage and knockback by simply touching people. He can also perform perhaps the ultimate cheesy ledge grap, by simply floating at the ledge. Pro. Sonic can dash across back and forth madly but that can simply be dodged. Instead, you slow sonic down upon approach and try to stand on your opponent, or where his dodge will end. Once you get the hang of controlling his inertia its relatively easy to keep standing where your opponent is going to go and keep hitting them until they die off the top or side of the stage. Going full speed at your opponents is also not that useful since they can attack at the same time and avoid taking damage as Gimpy points out.
samus vs sonic vs dk vs diddy ffa[/URL] shows DK clashing Super Sonic with his UpB at 1:23.
Still, currently Sonic's final smash is generally considered one of the best:
Super Sonic ClarificationsThe fact that some characters have unstoppable Final smashes (Bowser, Pika, Sonic) and others have complete garbage Final Smashes (Fox, Peach) means that you'd be limited to a select few characters based on how strong the final smash is.
1. Super Sonic is invulnerable. This means he cannot flinch or take damage.
2. Super Sonic cannot die off the sides of the stage. This means its incredibly unlikely he will ever suicide.
3. Super Sonic is momentum based. This means using the analog stick controls his acceleration, not his velocity. However, once this is mastered, Super Sonic can be completely controlled, in such a way that he can constantly stay pinned on his opponent. Dodging, will not counter a super sonic who moves in such a fashion. This is why Super Sonic seems, in the Demo we played, to have been unstoppable.
In short, people who are trying to come up with "weaknesses" of Super Sonic that balance the Final Smsah , are simply making things up or exagerrating insignificant shortcomings that can be made for by player skill. Without some drastic changes or new information, Super Sonic appears to be unavoidable if the player using him understands how to control him.
Throws
Forward- I killed someone in sudden death with his forward throw which launches his opponent upward with kick where sonic does the splits vertically. Great for setting up his upair game, but can be very strongly DIed backwards.
Back- general suplex like move. Seems to have respectable knock back that will at least enable you to edge guard your opponent.
Up- I didn't see it many times. Seems pretty generic.
Down- tosses them down and spins on them. Does more damage, pops them a bit away.
Gimpyfish62]Sonic's grab range seemed to be really high while dashing because of the amount of physical space he covers mid grab. His throws seem to have a fair amount of combo potential as well. [...]He has a LOT of ground speed with some good throw setups said:Damage Values (Incomplete)[/SIZE]
Non-Attack StuffVideos were very handy. This is what I've gleaned. (will add this to my report.)
Damage values by video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P9-Nq5z4ZcSonic vs Link
dsmash 10 sonic v link :01
fsmash 12 " :02
ftilt 8 " :09
http://youtube.com/watch?v=D533pueDHLc--Sonic vs Ike
nb 8 sonic v ike :14
get up? 8 " 1:44
http://gamevideos.com/video/id/15422Sonic vs MK
dair 8 sonic v MK :14
fsmash 15 Sonic v MK :39
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8PqbN2WM7MSonic vs Pit Pika Samus
dasha 6 Sonic v pit pika samus :16
dair 7 Sonic v pit pika samus :33
nb 8 Sonic v pit pika samus :37
sideb? 10 Sonic v pit pika samus :42
fsmash(charged) 16Sonic v pit pika samus1:01
sideb 10 Sonic v pit pika samus 1:08
fsmash(charged) 15Sonic v pit pika samus1:12
dasha 6 Sonic v pit pika samus 1:17
dair 7 Sonic v pit pika samus 1:20
bair? ? Sonic v pit pika samus 1:27
final 16 Sonic v pit pika samus 1:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UNOL28vUkg--Sonic vs Pika MK and Pit
head blocks damages, sonic player is a noob.
Damage values by moves
dasha 6 Sonic v pit pika samus :16
dasha 6 Sonic v pit pika samus 1:17
get up? 8 Sonic v Ike 1:44
dair 7 Sonic v pit pika samus :33
dair 7 Sonic v pit pika samus 1:20
bair? ? Sonic v pit pika samus 1:27
dair 8 sonic v MK :14
ftilt 8 Sonic v Link :09
nb 8 Sonic v pit pika samus :37
sideb? 10 Sonic v pit pika samus :42
sideb 10 Sonic v pit pika samus 1:08
dsmash 10 sonic v link :01
fsmash 12 sonic v link :02
fsmash(charged) 16 Sonic v pit pika samus 1:01
fsmash(charged) 15 Sonic v pit pika samus 1:12
final 16 Sonic v pit pika samus 1:40
P.S. Can someone tell me how to keep indentations when copying text from wordpad into the forum?
Taunts
Sides: Figure eight running in place
Down: Break dancing
Up: Does a small somersault in place
Victory Music
PropertiesIt's the victory music from Sonic 06.
Sonic doesn't seem especially light or heavy.
Sonic is of course very fast along the ground. Thankfully, Sakurai hasn't taken out dash-dashing .... yet (however, the classic controller is seems much more responsive than the gamecube controller, and dash-dashing was a bit tougher due to unintended jumps).
Like the space animals though, he is significantly slower in the air than on the ground, but not nearly to their extent. Nonetheless, he's quite slower aerially than the smash ball, which is very annoying as I have yet to crack it open in a single jump sequence.
Sonic can walljump. (Though few stages have long walls, I believe the edge wall jump trick is still in the game as I think I did it once during part of delfino plaza.)
Sonic may not be able ledge hug (run off and smash back at the ledge to snap to it) due to the incredible momentum from his run. He also soars past the edge when doing his upb and will not auto-snap to it like most other characters.
Alternate Colors
Sonic has no special costumes, only color changes as of the demo.
When changing a color, his wristbands and sneakers change to match that color, and he turns a different shade of blue. The color of his person against his wristbands and shoes do not match, but if he has red wrist bands and shoes then I presume he's a more reddish blue, green wristbands, then greenish blue, etc.
Wristband and shoe colors:
Red
Black
Green
Gold
White?
Playing Style / General Strategy
Speed - Sonic was the fastest character on the ground in the demo, and may still be the same in the final game (That would make sense at least). His speed is a strong asset of his, helping him to initiate on his own terms. However, his air speed is only around half his running speed, making it slightly more problematic for him on stages with lots of platforms. Running grabs were decently effective, since his forward throw and/or up throw may possibly be used to start his upair game. His backthrow can also be used to toss his opponent off the state and initiate an edge guarding game. His dash-dancing also holds great promise, but was not used extensively during my time at the demo (maybe in part due to the increased difficulty of dash-dancing with the classic controller.) Finally, its worth reiterating that his awesome ground speed gives him a huge running grab range since he grabs everything anyone in the tons of ground he covers during the grabbing frames.
low percent damage and lack of strength
Understandably, sonic's individual attacks do not deal high percentage. I was surprised at just how weak he was in the demo though, it seems non of his attacks even deal over 20 percent, ouch.
He also fits the general mold of being fast but weak in regards to knock back as well. In my experience and from what I saw he had a bit of difficulty finishing opponents off, in part because he has no excellent forward knocking air move (unlike Sheik in melee). Jumping backwards to use his bair offensively could be used but since one needs to run on the ground to move fast as sonic and hence would need to turn around, its a bit unwieldy (at least until Ink Dropping is perfected). His fsmash and dsmash could also solve this problem but I'm doubtful of how Sonic will be able to hit people with them consistently in high level play.
Note: I'm unsure of how much of Sonic's knockback weakness was due to Brawl's general higher percentage for deaths and how much is due to Sonic
Upair - As played during the demo, a non-noob sonic's game generally made great use his upair kick; it can act as a finisher at high percents (now ~150 not ~100!!!), but is also good for comboing up his opponent's percent. He has an advantage fox and falco wish they had in that he can also use the incredible vertical boost from his upb to help in chasing his air borne opponents and landing even more upairs. However, the DI influence is significant enough and sonic not fast enough in the air that he will often need to land in between upairs to chase his opponent down horizontally.
anti-noob - his spin dashes do this incredibly well, but I don't forsee them being terribly effective against opponents who are actually aware and capable of dodging or simply attacking sonic out of them.
anti-final smash sonic's upb launches him so high he has no problem getting out of the way of many final smashes. The final smashes of mario and Samus can easily be avoided in this manner. I was also extremely successful at not getting hit once during diddy's final smash by simply soaring above him with Sonic's jumps and upbs, then dodging on my way back down and repeating
smash ball problem I had tremendous difficulty opening smash balls. The balls tend to stay in the air, where sonic's aerial horizontal speed is much worse than the balls. Furthermore, no aerial move of his I used could open the ball in one go. His dair might be his most powerful and could potentially help this matter. Maybe hitting it once, then jumping again in the air and trying to hit it with one of his b moves could also increase his success. Nonetheless, when I did open the smash ball, Super Sonic rocked, and I almost always got one stock off my opponent, plus a few hits on their next stock. As explained under his final smash, without nerfs, I think this will be easily repeatable and nigh impossible to stop.
Misc: Other viable finishers include his back air, but his aerial horizontal speed is nothing special so positioning this attack is somewhat difficult. His neutral b also has significant knockback but Lucky called it "unreliable" and I agree. Sometimes it doesn't strick strongly and as a simply spin in place it has no real range.
His uptilt and dtilt seem like a great pop up moves to start air juggles with.
Under the pressure of sudden death his neutral b and his side b's were frequently used, often to great success. Lucky won a sudden death against a pikachu with the side B spin dash uncharged beating on of Pika's aerials.
Where I see the Sonic Strategy Developing Needless to say, Sonic's meta-game will improve and change considerably from here even without any tweaks to his character in the final version. I think though he will still be centered around juggling his opponent. I also think someone will probably figure out how to integrate his b moves successfully. The canceling of his side-b into aerials is promising and could potentially help Sonic rack up the percent easily in his juggles if someone figures out how to work it in. His homing attack might also be useful in juggles as well, if they aren't knocked out of its range it could be a finisher of sorts to juggle if an opponent is DIing away and Sonic has run out of ground to chase his opponent with. The momentum stopping properties of his upb and neutral b could also be used to play mindgames with your opponent.
Notes on my Sonic Playing I think I might have been the second best Sonic at the demo for Thursday/Friday. Although I played him earlier and explained a couple of sonic's moves to him, Lucky brought his Sonic game quite a bit above mine. He also was able to participate in the impromptu tournament we held, which unfortunately was organized while I was eating lunch so I didn't get a place in the draw. Part of his increase in playing savvy might have been due to him playing better players more frequently than I once the tournament started hence improving the sonic meta-game (I was relegated to stomping noobs and passer-byes).
I tended to stick to short hopping, whereas lucky used sonic's great ground speed more. He more frequently used running grabs than I did. Although he might also have been more prone to knocking his opponent off and edge guarding than I was, I still think he'd agree that sonic's upair game rocks.
I personally had some problems with defensive opponents. I got rocked by Gimpy's upb shield canceling with Bowswer in my first game against him today, not killing him once and getting killed 2-3 times (To be fair he also went giga twice against me that round). I put my thoughts together and massively improved on a rematch, only losing by a one kill swing. In comparison, Lucky beat Gimpy in awesome game. The upb shield cancelling was not a problem for his running grabs.
I also tended to use his ftilt a bit. Generally, this was pretty successful. His fsmash is much more powerful, I didn't seem to be able to land it as easily against competent foes.
I also had tremendous problems opening smash balls as sonic. For whatever reason smash ball rarely spawned on the wii we were using for the tournament which may also have helped lucky avoid the same problems of opening smash balls as I had. God must look favorably on "tournament purist" competition =D.
My playing was significantly hampered by my melee mindset, in which I expected to try for and start landing killing blows on my opponent around 100% whereas most people survive easily until about 150% in the brawl demo.
Future Work
I will not be playing more at the E for All as I only had time for Thursday and Friday. I'm trying to PM some of the better players for their impressions on Sonic, especially Lucky who was the best Sonic on Friday at the Demo.