ADHD
Smash Hero
Dins fire is useless half of the time.
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Sonic help?
- Thread starter ADHD
- Start date
This is not exclusive to Sonic, if mostly true for most of the cast, which happens to be the better characters. Once your opponent learns to roll, perfect shield, airdodge, and spot dodge, landing a Din's Fire is usually an indicator that the opponent messed up pretty badly.
Tips for Sonic: Gimp him with Dtilt and Fsmash. Use Din's Fire to pressure him into the spacing you want in order to set him up for a good ftilt, fsmash, utilt, or usmash.
Sonic really isn't that difficult, just learn to shield the minuscule set of moves he has that have some semblance of priority, which are basically nonexistant against Zelda's monster priority moves. Don't let yourself be set up for a fsmash, which is his only viable killing move.
That kind of naivete kills people.
Sonic has b-air and d-smash, both of which rival f-smash in knockback, and offstage, n-air and d-air can kill at relatively low %'s too.
Zelda's neutral B is actually pretty annoying, especially since I'm used to running up to a character and eliminating all distance after a missed attack (Ganondorf's JAB can get punished from 1/2 of Final Destination away), but don't be predictable with it (or any of your... slower moves). Priority doesn't matter when you're in the vulnerable time frame after missing an attack, and that's what Sonic can take advantage of.
N.A.G.A.C.E
Smash Champion
against a sonic be patient he has to get close to hit you and you out prioritize him. only use din when he is off the stage or to get him to come to you. if he goes in the air u-smash will punish him if he stays on the ground d-smash and f-smash plus dtilt will stop him. sonic has low priority and a tough time killing so its ok if you get knocked around a little before you start to hit him back. just be calm and patient don't panic if you see him coming at you b/c he is fast and you should be able to deal with him.
Also off the stage as long as you use up-B well and if use you fair/nair well he wont be able to do that much remeber he has low priority it is his major weak point
This is my thoughts on this fight i have only fought a couple sonics but i think this is good advice i have not lost to a sonic yet.
Also off the stage as long as you use up-B well and if use you fair/nair well he wont be able to do that much remeber he has low priority it is his major weak point
This is my thoughts on this fight i have only fought a couple sonics but i think this is good advice i have not lost to a sonic yet.
Bair is actually rather hard to land if the opponent is smart about DI and is aware of airdodging. As for relatively low %'s, that's only true if by low you mean ~130-150. By the time he gets you to those %'s, Zelda's superb defensive play should have gotten him to KO percentages.
Really, Sonic is not much of a threat to a good Zelda, mostly because you just need to wait for him to attack and outprioritize his pitifully low priority ones with a counterattack of yours.
lolya, considering how the rest of his moves start to kill at around 170%, that is low.
on a serious note, Sonic's b-air kills from 120-150% from the middle of FD with no stale moves, and most games aren't played toward the center of levels. =/ it's too bad alot of Sonic players try to spam it for damage - they lose a really good kill option. Stale moves ftl
I haven't been able to connect to my network recently with my Wii, so refresh me:
How is Zelda in midair...
against people above her? Under her?
When she's off stage?
._.; Honestly, I don't see alot of Sonic players using springs, and it's a very underestimated move, as a projectile, combo starter, height changer, trap... etc
Also, if the Sonic players you're going against don't try to use grabs/throws or play the gimp game/offstage, they're missing out on quite a bit :<
I'll stop now. I can't go online with my Wii so I can't go matchmaking to compare their playstyles atm. Ah well. If Zeldas will deal against predictable Sonics that way, no harm done.
Zelda's only reliable aerial is her nair. F/Bair and Uair need great timing and luck on your part. Further up in the air, Zelda is a sitting duck. You always want to be grounded as Zelda. However, if petty little Sonic manages to get sweetspot f/baired, he'll die at 60%+; 70%+ for uair. Zelda players just need to be judicious with their air game.
As for people above her, she's pretty good if the player is competent with landing tilts. dashes, and smashes as the opponent is landing.
Offstage, she's average with recovery. She doesn't need to edgeguard, though, as it is an anomaly if she's unable to KO above the 100's.
Sonic is vicious with grabs. I'd say that as a hit and run character, his grab game is rather annoying and hard to counter due to how fast he can perform it. With that said, any moves with a disjointed hitbox and higher priority (easy against Sonic) will severely hamper that aspect of his play.
I've been experimenting with Sonic, and I really do like him. H e has good potential, but you'll set yourself up for disappointment if you expect to KO early with him. Luckily, racking up damage is not too hard for him, granted that the player knows how to circumvent the problem of having his moves countered by higher priority moves. There's nothing more satisfying than finding out how useful neutral B is (despite the whining in the Sonic forums) not for keeping offensive pressure, but for gimping recoveries. I've gimped so many Snake recoveries to the point of absurdity (and you know how hard it is to gimp Snake's recovery with other characters, as that move has just so much super armor).
P.S. Don't judge a Zelda through Wifi. Wifi is a terrible environment for Zelda, as it's nigh impossible to sweetspot her power-moves.
._.; well, keep in mind attacks aren't the only approaches, especially if you're just trying to get a grab in - run+shield/airdodge/spinshot-dodge/high spring>d-air-dodge approaches can put a Sonic next to/behind you while avoiding attacks - regardless of priority. Heck, someone said elsewhere that SHAD (short hopped air dodge) is one of Falcon's best approaches in Brawl lol.
Sonic juggles well, so people with limited aerial games may have trouble with him, especially since his up-B and D-air allow him to change altitude at a much faster rate than other people. I brought up the above/under situation to see how a Zelda player would fight against a vertical-fighting Sonic, as rare as they are.
I've gotten used to Sonic's tendency to have a high % opponent. Sometimes I embrace it and bring them up to an obscene % just to u-throw them off the ceiling lol.
@wifi comment:
I have cable, and I tried to keep my fights to people who also have high speed connections, eliminating the lag problem- if that's all that's keeping anyone from playing normally. Otherwise, I play with people who are used to the whole deal. If Captain Falcon can land the knee online, Zelda can land the toe.
General tips
-Someone mentioned using side-B to bait an attack. I agree with this, but only if the spacing is enough. Zelda still has lag after casting Din's Fire, so it can backfire if you're too close to Sonic.
- - Playing offensively as Sonic is a huge risk, but only if he can keep you pressured with his combo moves (spindashes, f-air, u-air, usmash, tilts...). Getting into an offensive groove can start even with one spindash successfully connecting, but like alot of people (in any character board) have said, Sonic gets outprioritized, and moves like Zelda's neutral B can disrupt that.
-Whatever you do, don't spam moves, not even melee moves like jabs and smashes, from far away. Get into a pattern and the Sonic will have you in a grab and/or juggled before you can gain control back.
Sonic juggles well, so people with limited aerial games may have trouble with him, especially since his up-B and D-air allow him to change altitude at a much faster rate than other people. I brought up the above/under situation to see how a Zelda player would fight against a vertical-fighting Sonic, as rare as they are.
I've gotten used to Sonic's tendency to have a high % opponent. Sometimes I embrace it and bring them up to an obscene % just to u-throw them off the ceiling lol.
@wifi comment:
I have cable, and I tried to keep my fights to people who also have high speed connections, eliminating the lag problem- if that's all that's keeping anyone from playing normally. Otherwise, I play with people who are used to the whole deal. If Captain Falcon can land the knee online, Zelda can land the toe.
General tips
-Someone mentioned using side-B to bait an attack. I agree with this, but only if the spacing is enough. Zelda still has lag after casting Din's Fire, so it can backfire if you're too close to Sonic.
- - Playing offensively as Sonic is a huge risk, but only if he can keep you pressured with his combo moves (spindashes, f-air, u-air, usmash, tilts...). Getting into an offensive groove can start even with one spindash successfully connecting, but like alot of people (in any character board) have said, Sonic gets outprioritized, and moves like Zelda's neutral B can disrupt that.
-Whatever you do, don't spam moves, not even melee moves like jabs and smashes, from far away. Get into a pattern and the Sonic will have you in a grab and/or juggled before you can gain control back.
Triforce_Chauzu
Smash Apprentice
My tip for playing Sonic is - switch to Sheik. She's a real counter for Sonic, in my experience. The Sonics that I've played likes to run at me, and Sheik's shurikens are perfect to stop it. She's also fast enough to keep up with Sonic.
When I use Zelda, I have such trouble to keep my head cool that it drives me nuts. I end up spamming moves like the dash attack and such. Nah, I can't handle Sonic with Zelda. Better to just switch.
Sonic is the only match-up where I switch to Sheik, btw.
When I use Zelda, I have such trouble to keep my head cool that it drives me nuts. I end up spamming moves like the dash attack and such. Nah, I can't handle Sonic with Zelda. Better to just switch.
Sonic is the only match-up where I switch to Sheik, btw.
S2
Smash Lord
LOL I know the feeling of being overwhelmed and just throwing stuff out there. That usually is an indication that you're going to lose. This happens to most players when they get in a match that's waaayy to over their heads (skillwise).My tip for playing Sonic is - switch to Sheik. She's a real counter for Sonic, in my experience. The Sonics that I've played likes to run at me, and Sheik's shurikens are perfect to stop it. She's also fast enough to keep up with Sonic.
When I use Zelda, I have such trouble to keep my head cool that it drives me nuts. I end up spamming moves like the dash attack and such. Nah, I can't handle Sonic with Zelda. Better to just switch.
Sonic is the only match-up where I switch to Sheik, btw.
The second you start just throwing things out there without thinking or having strict control over what you're doing, that's the second your done for. Since a good opponent is going to keep punishing you over and over for all the little mistakes you'll make.
The best thing you can do is try to play smart and assess the situation (which is hard, since your opponent isn't going to stop for you to analyze their moves)...
If swapping to Sheik works for you, then awesome. Zelda is one of the few characters that has the advantage of covering a bad matchup (for either the character or the player) by swapping to another that plays very differently. But considering how Sheik is nerfed in this game, not knowing how to play as her (including Sheik specific mindgames) will get you killed even quicker.
I have considered switching to sheik against metaknight, but I am not very good with her ninja clothes on. Sheiks needles will counter MK's tornado pretty much instantly, which I imagine is what makes sheik good against sonic as well.
The difference is Zelda can use Neutral A, B or DTilt to stop sonics approach, but with MK's tornado all 3 of your fastest defense options are suddenly rendered useless. He breaks through everything but forward N-Air (because it's disjointed at a forward angle) and Dins, or a luckily timed FSmash.. all of which have much slower set up time than a needle.
I probably won't have a good answer on the sheik thing for a few months ..
I am still learning way too much about Zelda right now, it's sick.
For me the biggest strength sheik has going for her right now is refreshing Zelda's attacks haha.
The difference is Zelda can use Neutral A, B or DTilt to stop sonics approach, but with MK's tornado all 3 of your fastest defense options are suddenly rendered useless. He breaks through everything but forward N-Air (because it's disjointed at a forward angle) and Dins, or a luckily timed FSmash.. all of which have much slower set up time than a needle.
I probably won't have a good answer on the sheik thing for a few months ..
I am still learning way too much about Zelda right now, it's sick.
For me the biggest strength sheik has going for her right now is refreshing Zelda's attacks haha.
Triforce_Chauzu
Smash Apprentice
Well I can use Sheik okay, so it's working for me. She's probably my sixth-seventh best or something. My brother mains her too, so I know how to play with her. Will probably train real with her in the summer.
ADHD
Smash Hero
dark_Illusion_hokage
Smash Apprentice
I usually k.o opponents from 0-50% with Sonic and it happens most of the time, all you need to do is master his edgeguards and it always an easy win against Zelda, wait for her to teleport back on the stage and smash her off or knock her under the stage with a b-air or spring and it's OVA. Since i main Zelda to all I can say is if you fight a GOOD Sonic stay ON the stage.
Deathwish238
Smash Apprentice
oh gawd my friend mains zelda and i main sonic 8 times out of 10 he beats me in a 2 out of 3 set. its just that zelda has her fricken disjointed hitboxes and sonic's crappy priority its really hard to approach her. usmash = sucks you in and destroys sonic. f-smash = same thing. and then when i finally hit her in the air he does a perfect air dodge to ground shield which i think i could stop with a u smash but im not sure.
if you shield her usmash/fsmash you can't grab since it pushes you off it also gives zelda time to dodge in anticipation of one of sonic's attack and she will most likely do another f/u-smash to eat up ur shield or dodge and d-smash. and then her teleportation sucks cuz its hard gimping her. so yea zelda is a counter to sonic i don't think sheik is despite her needles; sonic could always jump over or spindash to a jump and springdrop or dair or air dodge. zelda is annoying and pikachu is also annoying. they both have disjointed hitboxes with high priority and they sure have a big advantage against sonic.
if you shield her usmash/fsmash you can't grab since it pushes you off it also gives zelda time to dodge in anticipation of one of sonic's attack and she will most likely do another f/u-smash to eat up ur shield or dodge and d-smash. and then her teleportation sucks cuz its hard gimping her. so yea zelda is a counter to sonic i don't think sheik is despite her needles; sonic could always jump over or spindash to a jump and springdrop or dair or air dodge. zelda is annoying and pikachu is also annoying. they both have disjointed hitboxes with high priority and they sure have a big advantage against sonic.
TwinkleToes
Smash Lord
I always thought Zelda was an easier match up for Sonic because of her unreliable b/f/d air attacks and her slow base speed which makes her one of the easier characters to grab.
And I think Sonic's side-b can get through Din's Fire... so probably not a good idea to "bait" with it...
And I think Sonic's side-b can get through Din's Fire... so probably not a good idea to "bait" with it...
>_> Did you know that in the Genesis Sonic games, all of Robotnik's attacks outprioritized Sonic? How the heck could you beat the bosses then, without airdodging, without shielding?
...You wait until their attacks are over, then attack.
and you make sure you always have rings lolol
people and their priority issues @.@;
Also, you can hit Zelda before she teleports, and when she does teleport, it's usually pretty obvious where she'll land, but that could be because I have a feel for her teleportation range. And try spotdodging instead of shielding Fsmashes =/
Deathwish238
Smash Apprentice
well thanks for the advice but i've tried most of those things im probably not as good as you guys but after i play him so many times he gets used to what i do and yes i know thats the worst possible thing that could happen with sonic but hey he just camps out waiting for me to approach him.
and BELIEVE ME i've punished him with his f-smash lag i would **** him with grabs and fairs but he's learned not to spam it and he only uses it when i go up to him (and yes i try to fake him out but he just stands there until i finally go up to him).
when i spot dodge zelda's f-smash im pretty sure that he still hits me at the end becuz the move lasts a bit longer than the dodge same thing with his u-smash; if i don't fast fall and time the air dodge perfectly he'll suck me u-smash of death. and when i shield i now try to fair since my grab can't reach zelda due to her pushing me off but he anticipates this due to us playing so much and he either shields or spot dodges and then proceeds to do a down smash and i get punished for my ending fair lag since i have to short hop it to hit him.
yes i am aware of the teleportation has a second or half a second of start up lag but its still hard to do and if i do it it'll have to be with my fair which isn't as reliable as bair and nair is hard connecting >_< he only uses teleport as a last resort if not he just air dodges his way in. and if i DO try to hit him before he teleports i mostly likely lose the advantage of punishing his lag when he lands on the ground and throwing him back off the stage =/
another advantage that zelda has is that she kind of ruins sonic's "grab game" well at least something i love to do which is grab to down throw => chase. well since zelda is so light what my friend does and again anticipates this. he DI's away from me giving him a split second where zelda can jump and proceeds to air dodge and back on the ground shielding. this pisses me off because she doesn't stay on the ground so i can anticipate where he will roll so i could grab again or ^smash him =/ it sounds stupid i guess you'd have to see it to understand me.
ok so yeah point is i phail v_v lol but yeah i wish i could get a vid so i could show u guys how the matches go =/ after playing so many times he gets used to how i play and i try to change things up but still there is no denying that zelda does have an advantage over sonic. OH and he told me that he recently started to use neutral B...great another move he can fend me off with. but its not like i lose all the time i just have a lot of trouble beating him in best of 2 out of 3's.
and BELIEVE ME i've punished him with his f-smash lag i would **** him with grabs and fairs but he's learned not to spam it and he only uses it when i go up to him (and yes i try to fake him out but he just stands there until i finally go up to him).
when i spot dodge zelda's f-smash im pretty sure that he still hits me at the end becuz the move lasts a bit longer than the dodge same thing with his u-smash; if i don't fast fall and time the air dodge perfectly he'll suck me u-smash of death. and when i shield i now try to fair since my grab can't reach zelda due to her pushing me off but he anticipates this due to us playing so much and he either shields or spot dodges and then proceeds to do a down smash and i get punished for my ending fair lag since i have to short hop it to hit him.
yes i am aware of the teleportation has a second or half a second of start up lag but its still hard to do and if i do it it'll have to be with my fair which isn't as reliable as bair and nair is hard connecting >_< he only uses teleport as a last resort if not he just air dodges his way in. and if i DO try to hit him before he teleports i mostly likely lose the advantage of punishing his lag when he lands on the ground and throwing him back off the stage =/
another advantage that zelda has is that she kind of ruins sonic's "grab game" well at least something i love to do which is grab to down throw => chase. well since zelda is so light what my friend does and again anticipates this. he DI's away from me giving him a split second where zelda can jump and proceeds to air dodge and back on the ground shielding. this pisses me off because she doesn't stay on the ground so i can anticipate where he will roll so i could grab again or ^smash him =/ it sounds stupid i guess you'd have to see it to understand me.
ok so yeah point is i phail v_v lol but yeah i wish i could get a vid so i could show u guys how the matches go =/ after playing so many times he gets used to how i play and i try to change things up but still there is no denying that zelda does have an advantage over sonic. OH and he told me that he recently started to use neutral B...great another move he can fend me off with. but its not like i lose all the time i just have a lot of trouble beating him in best of 2 out of 3's.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Don't look at sonic's lack of a projectile as an exploitable weakness. look ar his lack of priotiy and half of the work's already done.
Oops, the spot dodge thing was more for Nayru's Love, not f-smash. That one got me alot at first because I was used to shield grabbing after the first hit, but apparently, you can't grab Zelda out of that, so that, to me, was as annoying as fsmash x.x;
For the throws, try u-throws instead of d-throws, then go into an aerial juggle. It was mentioned earlier, but Zelda's air-game is basically her n-air and maybe neutral B, since it would be a waste of knockback for them to use up f/b-air when those moves won't kill.
Do backward jumps off stage so at least you can go for b-air instead of f-air. Use that thing for damage and off-level kills instead of on-level KO's.
Yeah, it might really just be your playstyle if you keep getting dodged and predicted. I'll concede and leave it to that since I haven't fought any Zeldas recently (no network on Wii) and can't make a good gameplay argument atm.
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Also, are we giving tips to the sonic or the zelda players? lol
Deathwish238
Smash Apprentice
yeah exactly. not being able to shield + grab PISSES ME OFF! so i have to jump out in to a fair and thats when he whips out the u-smash or dodges in place and punishes my sh fair with a d-smash v_v.
and yeah i hear you with the u-throw its a good idea the only thing is i have an extremely hard time hitting him in the air becuz he ALWAYS dodges he's already used to it. and he dodges right on time, he hardly ever fights in the air unless IM the one on top of him or to the side when he sometimes attempts a fair/bair. but when he's on top he just air dodges and i know there's a split sec. b4 and after the dodge that you can hit a char. but he does it pretty good and when he's close the ground he dodges right on time and shields without any lag so yeahhh...lmao i know i was searching for a thread about sonic vs zelda and ironically it was a zelda having trouble with sonic thats why i was a little aggressive at first lol, the advice can go either way i guess lol
and yeah i hear you with the u-throw its a good idea the only thing is i have an extremely hard time hitting him in the air becuz he ALWAYS dodges he's already used to it. and he dodges right on time, he hardly ever fights in the air unless IM the one on top of him or to the side when he sometimes attempts a fair/bair. but when he's on top he just air dodges and i know there's a split sec. b4 and after the dodge that you can hit a char. but he does it pretty good and when he's close the ground he dodges right on time and shields without any lag so yeahhh...lmao i know i was searching for a thread about sonic vs zelda and ironically it was a zelda having trouble with sonic thats why i was a little aggressive at first lol, the advice can go either way i guess lol
Super_Sonic8677
Smash Lord
Don't feel bad DeathWish,I'm having trouble with Zelda too. She is very difficult to get to,and once you do you still have to stay on the defensive until you see a good opening. I need to work on my precision too....
Villi
Smash Lord
:O ... If you want to use Din's Fire against Sonic, try aiming for a point between you and Sonic. Your judgement should be good enough, but halfway usually works for me. It stops them midroll and tends to confuse them if they have a follow-up move planned.
Deathwish238
Smash Apprentice
a problem with Din's Fire is that if sonic isn't spindashing he has enough time to run over to zelda, past the din's fire and sonic is probably going to grab or dash A zelda; unless zelda predicts the running and times the explosion just right so she hits sonic which is very hard to do. but for stopping the spindashes i agree din's fire is a effective way.
RoyalBlood
Smash Ace
I think Zelda's Usmash outprioritize his attack, when he curls you can use Nayru's Love to stop him in his tracks
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
okay... so you can't use din's fire on sonic... luckily, every other move that you posess work's fantasticly on sonic.
ThReAtEnEd
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2008
- Messages
- 11
ahh so many people with so much text! lol
against sonic he usually has to approach me so if he comes rolling on the ground i use nayru's love cuz sonic can't get to me if i do. from the air it's pretty easy to dodge out of the way. you can also use needles on sonic with sheik..
against sonic he usually has to approach me so if he comes rolling on the ground i use nayru's love cuz sonic can't get to me if i do. from the air it's pretty easy to dodge out of the way. you can also use needles on sonic with sheik..