Guide Sonic GUIDE/FAQ: ASK QUESTIONS HERE

[Kinzer]

God, we're such tier *****s.

Also, I think 350 may end up being more than I'd pay for a hotel lol but perhaps we can negotiate.

Actually, the way I understand it, tree fiddy is ghetto speak for three dollars and fifty cents.

I'm basically inviting you to come to Vegas and all you'd have to cover yourself is air fare, food, and whatever else isn't included in hotel rooms.

... Assuming you win, of course. 'Cause I'm gonna shrek you for even insinuating that my region is a joke.

And by region I mean Vegas. The entire West Coast overall is bad, I'll give you that.

 

[Camalange]

Actually, the way I understand it, tree fiddy is ghetto speak for three dollars and fifty cents.

I'm basically inviting you to come to Vegas and all you'd have to cover yourself is air fare, food, and whatever else isn't included in hotel rooms

oh

I kinda thought that but I didn't want to assume x_x

This is definitely a motivator though but I'd feel bad >_>

... Assuming you win, of course. 'Cause I'm gonna shrek you for even insinuating that my region is a joke.

And by region I mean Vegas. The entire West Coast overall is bad, I'll give you that.

I'm gonna go Shrek 2 on your ass.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

So much to see so much to do let's go watch the deleted scenes on Shrek 2. /Dunkey
I'd bet on Cammy. Unless Kinzer went Luigi.

 

[Camalange]

So much to see so much to do let's go watch the deleted scenes on Shrek 2. /Dunkey

sick reference, brah.

I'd bet on Cammy. Unless Kinzer went Luigi.

hah hah

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

My references are the best. Everybody knows that.

 

[moyshe]

whats sonics worst match up

 

[ROOOOY!]

Jimmy Saville.

Hard to say at this stage really. Sonic doesn't seem to out right lose hard to anyone from where I'm looking. People have issues with Diddy (doesn't everyone), Sheik, Ness mostly. Basically, mobile characters on par or more annoying than Sonic himself.

 

[BlackPhantom]

But I thought ness had trouble with us? :'(

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I don't feel like Ness is a major threat either.

I'd add Yoshi, Luigi and Villager to the list. Still haven't played any good Rosalumas or Olimars to have a say on those.

 

[Camalange]

I still think characters like Rosaluma and Olimalphmin are awful.

Let's just say Lucario too because.

Yoshi is annoying, but I think if I got more experience with it, it wouldn't be so bad for us. Luigi I need to learn too… I don't think Ness is particularly bad for us either. Just annoying.

Villager is honestly not that bad at all imo. Their camp game is pretty bad outside of slingshot. Gyroid's hitbox doesn't activate right away so you can just run and hit them before it even makes contact with you and Sonic is one of the few characters that can go deep against Villager's recovery (not that you'll really ever get a gimp but you can at least pressure and wrack up damage/edgeguard). Villager also has a hard time landing KO moves without being crafty. Sonic can even use spring's invincibility to recover low against bowling ball if they try to edgeguard with it. They rely a lot on frame traps to kill you (ex. bowling ball having like no cooldown) so you have to be the most weary about that.

Also, their jab is fast and annoying but it won't kill you or anything… Like ****ing Rosaluma's will.

Scariest thing about Villager is their aerials. Recovery and jab are most annoying.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I hate the Villager MU just because HA goes astray pretty much everytime. Plus, his campy playstyle is bad for Sonic, due to our lack of approaches. I guess I should use more running attacks and pivot grabs against rockets, though.

And, yeah, his aerials are nasty.

 

[Camalange]

I'm not totally discrediting Villager's camp game, as we do have to deal with it inherently because Sonic can't approach for ****, but it's faaaar more manageable than Rosaluma or Olimalphmin.

I just know the first time I played a Villager I got TROUNCED because I had no clue what he was doing. After a ton of friendlies with him I realized Villager was not nearly as safe as he looks.

 

[roygbiv91]

A moveset question:
I often watch sonic tournament gameplay. Players like 6WX often doing a short spin roll like under the ledge to edge guard
?How does this work? Is it something like sheiks bouncing fish back to stage?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Quick question:


How do you land Up Smash. It's a lovely move except I can't seem to make it land on anyone who's careful about their landings. And it's too slow to be used reasonably OoS.

 

[Camalange]

A moveset question:
I often watch sonic tournament gameplay. Players like 6WX often doing a short spin roll like under the ledge to edge guard
?How does this work? Is it something like sheiks bouncing fish back to stage?

I think I'm confused by this question. Can you elaborate or link to an instance of this happening?

I mean, you can Nair under the ledge (Nair has that spinball animation) to try and hit them during their ledgesnap vulnerability since it remains active and covers all of Sonic in a hitbox.

Or perhaps you mean applying the same concept to just running off, quickly using Side-B towards the ledge to stop momentum, and releasing to catch them with the hop while also allowing Sonic to be facing towards the stage again.

Quick question:


How do you land Up Smash. It's a lovely move except I can't seem to make it land on anyone who's careful about their landings. And it's too slow to be used reasonably OoS.

As far as I know, there's no real combo or set-up situation for it (I think Usmash has too much start-up to confirm off of a soft hit Nair, if I were to theorycraft) but your best best is just hard reads... Platform pressure, catching landings, tech reads, etc. Sometimes you can Dthrow chase and catch wake-up with Usmash. Maybe your opponent likes to jump a lot and you can run in and do a hyphen smash to catch them. Things of that nature. It's more of a situational anti-air/hard punish than anything else, which is why you mostly see us use Fsmash, Uair, Bair, and kill throws (Bthrow/Fthrow), despite Usmash probably having the highest KO potential overall.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Figured as much, I just had to be sure I wasn't missing something. Thank you.

EDIT: Okay might as well ask this while I'm here.

I'm new to Sonic but not Smash. I get Sonic. I have a basic understanding of the character. One thing I don't get is which of his massive amount of ATs revolving around SD/SC are worth practicing. I don't really know the names of half of them but I know how to use them (if that makes sense lol). What should I be practicing?

Also in what situations would I want to use SD or SC over the other? I get their basic differences but not sure of all their uses.

 

[The_Paradiddler]

Hey guys, so spinshotting is giving me a hard time.

I can do it out of ASC with a flick of the c-stick fine, but can't really get it going from SD, ground or aerial.

Anyone have any advice?

 

[The_Paradiddler]

Figured as much, I just had to be sure I wasn't missing something. Thank you.

EDIT: Okay might as well ask this while I'm here.

I'm new to Sonic but not Smash. I get Sonic. I have a basic understanding of the character. One thing I don't get is which of his massive amount of ATs revolving around SD/SC are worth practicing. I don't really know the names of half of them but I know how to use them (if that makes sense lol). What should I be practicing?

Also in what situations would I want to use SD or SC over the other? I get their basic differences but not sure of all their uses.

I think all of the ones listed here are worth practicing, even just for the sake of mix ups. One of the most important ones though is spinshot to help recover and get you over projectile walls for approaches.

As for the spin moves, SD is usually better because the start up hop is invincible which can also be used to get through projectiles. However, SC deals multiple hits which can wear down sheilds, and it has a better trajectory for recovering (it can even be used to go under stages like FD)

Hope that helped a bit!

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I think all of the ones listed here are worth practicing, even just for the sake of mix ups. One of the most important ones though is spinshot to help recover and get you over projectile walls for approaches.

As for the spin moves, SD is usually better because the start up hop is invincible which can also be used to get through projectiles. However, SC deals multiple hits which can wear down sheilds, and it has a better trajectory for recovering (it can even be used to go under stages like FD)

Hope that helped a bit!

Very useful. Thank you. I've got a tournament this weekend and this'll be my first time using him in a serious setting. Trying to hash out any questions I have before then.

 

[Camalange]

Hope that helped a bit!

For the future, try not to double post. Use the edit feature.

No warning or infraction, as you gave helpful advice... Just a reminder on my part.

But yes, spinshot and SDSC are probably the most useful. I think ISDJ is going to be big as well once everyone figures that out too.

Anyone have any advice?

My goal is to have the tutorial video out next week.

 

[The_Paradiddler]

For the future, try not to double post. Use the edit feature.

No warning or infraction, as you gave helpful advice... Just a reminder on my part.

But yes, spinshot and SDSC are probably the most useful. I think ISDJ is going to be big as well once everyone figures that out too.

My goal is to have the tutorial video out next week.

Ah, my bad, still trying to figure out this place lol.

I love SDSC, gives a lot of mixups. ISDJ is a bit trickier to find a lot of use for, though. Surprise platform pressure into aerials with it seems to work nicely.

The video would be very much appreciated, it's the only thing I can't get my head around lol.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

ISDJ honestly isn't that difficult to learn. I set my R to attack since its more intuitive with my giant hands.

Also some ATs are more timing based and others are more visual. This one is both. You really need to look at Sonic's animation when you're learning this. After that just commit to muscle memory.

 

[Reksho]

However, SC deals multiple hits which can wear down sheilds, and it has a better trajectory for recovering (it can even be used to go under stages like FD)

About the recovery: really? I always use SD though as that little hop pushes you a bit further in the air. But if I understand it correctly, SC has a more horizontal trajectory which makes it better for recovery?

 

[Sonic Orochi]

SC falls at half of the rate that SD does, making it better for recovery.

If you're not facing the stage, though, SD is your only option there.

 

[Phill-Bot]

How did 6WX do this? http://youtu.be/s_6l0SHsKbY?t=52s

He goes from an ASD to a VSD (correct terminology?) seamlessly. Also I can't seem to pull off a VSD consistently, is there an easy way to do it?

 

[Camalange]

SD will make you fall like a rock, but I still use it depending on the situation.

How did 6WX do this? http://youtu.be/s_6l0SHsKbY?t=52s

He goes from an ASD to a VSD (correct terminology?) seamlessly. Also I can't seem to pull off a VSD consistently, is there an easy way to do it?

Yeah, close enough (VSDJ). Here's how the sequence plays out.

ASD (Aerial Spin Dash) > ASDH (Aerial Spin Dash Hop) > land into SDR (Spin Dash Roll)...

Now this is where it gets interesting...

SDR connects with shield, slowing it down into what we like to call a "Lyric Roll". It's new to Sm4sh that is initiated by either doing a minimally charged Spin Dash/Spin Charge, or when a Spin Dash Roll/Spin Dash Charge connects with something, slowing down its momentum.

Lyric Roll can be used to cross up your opponent on shield, land multiple hits, or go straight into a VSDJ like he did there.

 

[Gregory2590]

i still think lyric roll is a stupid name

a good kind of stupid though

but still stupid

 

[Camalange]

i still think lyric roll is a stupid name

a good kind of stupid though

but still stupid

As is the Sonic boards way.

 

[Phill-Bot]

SD will make you fall like a rock, but I still use it depending on the situation.

Yeah, close enough (VSDJ). Here's how the sequence plays out.

ASD (Aerial Spin Dash) > ASDH (Aerial Spin Dash Hop) > land into SDR (Spin Dash Roll)...

Now this is where it gets interesting...

SDR connects with shield, slowing it down into what we like to call a "Lyric Roll". It's new to Sm4sh that is initiated by either doing a minimally charged Spin Dash/Spin Charge, or when a Spin Dash Roll/Spin Dash Charge connects with something, slowing down its momentum.

Lyric Roll can be used to cross up your opponent on shield, land multiple hits, or go straight into a VSDJ like he did there.

So it only works on shield? How do you know when you can input another move (any move?)?

 

[Kinzer]

Not really. Having your roll shielded just makes it easier to notice because the opponent isn't moving nearly as much as they would with you versus when their hurtbox is flying with you.

It works when it connects with anything. The name "Spin Charge" is a pretty good indicator of this application. Now, I know it's strange that it also applies to Sonic's Side-B; but, you can blame Sakurai for that convoluted mess. In any case, depending on how long you hold your Spin Dash for, or how charged your Spin Charge is, you'll move farther before you have to crawl to a stop.

Just to be fair; though, I'm not exactly sure myself whether or not giving your Spin Charge more "juice" extends the duration/whatever.

 

[Camalange]

So it only works on shield? How do you know when you can input another move (any move?)?

Not really. Having your roll shielded just makes it easier to notice because the opponent isn't moving nearly as much as they would with you versus when their hurtbox is flying with you.

It works when it connects with anything. The name "Spin Charge" is a pretty good indicator of this application. Now, I know it's strange that it also applies to Sonic's Side-B; but, you can blame Sakurai for that convoluted mess. In any case, depending on how long you hold your Spin Dash for, or how charged your Spin Charge is, you'll move farther before you have to crawl to a stop.

In addition to hitting something (usually shield), a minimally charged spin should initiate the same effect.

If you go into screech stop, you can do any option after that's over.
Ex. Lyric Roll cross up, screech stop, ftilt.
Sometimes if they're really turtling, you can screech stop in front of them and still get an option (rare but possible).
In the case of the 6wx video, that's probably the most practical and safest application of the Lyric Roll, followed by the cross-up option.

Just to be fair; though, I'm not exactly sure myself whether or not giving your Spin Charge more "juice" extends the duration/whatever.

I don't think it does, as you need less "juice" to get it started anyway.

 

[Phill-Bot]

In addition to hitting something (usually shield), a minimally charged spin should initiate the same effect.

If you go into screech stop, you can do any option after that's over.
Ex. Lyric Roll cross up, screech stop, ftilt.
Sometimes if they're really turtling, you can screech stop in front of them and still get an option (rare but possible).
In the case of the 6wx video, that's probably the most practical and safest application of the Lyric Roll, followed by the cross-up option.

I don't think it does, as you need less "juice" to get it started anyway.

I have a feeling that even if I spent an hour in training mode, I couldn't replicate 6WX's lyric roll pressure... So from what I understand, when I want to input a move after a lyric roll, Sonic should slow down (or stop?) automatically when colliding with the opponant? I wish someone would do a tech video of Smash 4 Sonic, it's so easy to get behind in tech with him...

 

[Swiffy22]

I spent a couple of weeks contemplating switching to Falcon, but alas, I can't stay away from the blue furball. I have switched to Customs for a little while to liven things up though. With my sometimes good, sometimes bad habit of spamming inputs I noticed something strange, that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere. Like last time I posted, I think it's simple enough that it's already been found, but I'm throwing it out here just in case.

So usually when you jump out of a spin dash, you're stuck with a long arc until you can fastfall back down. Obviously, there are some situations where we'd like to avoid that. Jumping out of Hammer Spin Dash attack will sometimes put me above my opponent, especially when they're at low percents. However, I noticed that, very rarely, I would pull off a "short hop" out of my spin dashes and usually land a good string of aerials whenever it happened. So I took it to training mode to see what I could find.

And here's how it's done: Press Attack or Jump right when you touch the ground after the small jump from your spin dash. There's a very small window to get the short hop. Using this with normal spin dash, you go about half the height and length of a full arc. With Hammer Spin Dash, it's about a fourth. It may not have much application with the normal spin dash, but with Hammer Spin Dash it works wonders.

 

[Camalange]

I have a feeling that even if I spent an hour in training mode, I couldn't replicate 6WX's lyric roll pressure... So from what I understand, when I want to input a move after a lyric roll, Sonic should slow down (or stop?) automatically when colliding with the opponant? I wish someone would do a tech video of Smash 4 Sonic, it's so easy to get behind in tech with him...

It's honestly not too difficult; It's just a matter of being able to recognize when you're in the lyric roll state.

You can tell by your momentum and animation. If you jump during it, you get the VSDJ. If you don't, you'll eventually come to a screech stop, but you can use that as a cross-up on shield.

Once you're in screech stop, you can do an input after the cooldown. A slow option, but an option nonetheless that can open up people who aren't expecting it.

I spent a couple of weeks contemplating switching to Falcon, but alas, I can't stay away from the blue furball. I have switched to Customs for a little while to liven things up though. With my sometimes good, sometimes bad habit of spamming inputs I noticed something strange, that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere. Like last time I posted, I think it's simple enough that it's already been found, but I'm throwing it out here just in case.

So usually when you jump out of a spin dash, you're stuck with a long arc until you can fastfall back down. Obviously, there are some situations where we'd like to avoid that. Jumping out of Hammer Spin Dash attack will sometimes put me above my opponent, especially when they're at low percents. However, I noticed that, very rarely, I would pull off a "short hop" out of my spin dashes and usually land a good string of aerials whenever it happened. So I took it to training mode to see what I could find.

And here's how it's done: Press Attack or Jump right when you touch the ground after the small jump from your spin dash. There's a very small window to get the short hop. Using this with normal spin dash, you go about half the height and length of a full arc. With Hammer Spin Dash, it's about a fourth. It may not have much application with the normal spin dash, but with Hammer Spin Dash it works wonders.

I have Spin Dash Short Hop listed in the terminology, but the inputs are listed in Orochi's moveset thread, just as you described them.

The height and perhaps properties might be different while using the Hammer Spin Dash, but the concept and inputs are the same.

 

[Swiffy22]

Sorry I keep overlooking this stuff. :/ Thanks again!

 

[Camalange]

Sorry I keep overlooking this stuff. :/ Thanks again!

That's quite alright. There's a lot to digest. The point of this thread is to ask questions so... Ask away!

Much prefer it being discussed here instead of new threads popping up, lol.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

What are our best edge guarding tools? I find that I can annoy recovering opponents but I'm not landing substantial hits on them very often. Suggestions?

 

[Kinzer]

What are our best edge guarding tools? I find that I can annoy recovering opponents but I'm not landing substantial hits on them very often. Suggestions?

I honestly have the same problem as well. Too many characters in this game have recoveries that snap to the ledge or are otherwise unpunishable, making them safe from all but the most safe/least rewarding punishes (Spring coils) or the most committed but punishing options (Down Smash, Back Air, Up Smash, etc.)

The thing I get that meets a close, sweet, middle between the adorementioned are forward airs. At later percents (+ optional rage mode), this will kill if you hit somebody off-stage with it. Of course, you can't rely on this too often or people just airdodge through it as if you were in a situation similar to trying to stagespike Bair them. Alternativly, Fair has next to no range so anybody who is bold enough to challenge you while you're recovering will beat you convincingly.

It's powerful and quick enough that it can be unexpected.

That's the best I got for you. I'm sorry if this doesn't help much.

Edit: I have my own inquiry if anybody has the answer.

I don't have a Wii-U myself ATM; so: does anybody here have a chance to tell me if perhaps Double Spring can you give you more (effective) follow-ups from a low-% UThrow? And if possible, can you still get the same punishes you can with regular Up-B or is it not possible due to stuff and things?

In the off-chance that customs actually become legal in Vegas, I'd like to have a bit of a head-start on some different options that may or may not be better in general or depending on the matchups.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I appreciate your input. This is more or less what I have been doing with the addition of Nairs as mixup (the super long duration often catches people I know like to airdodge and that's free damage). Guess I just need to get more precise.

Oh one thing I have been doing as a mixup when my opponent is at high percents is Homing Attack off stage. I like to use it more when they recover low because it sometimes catches people so fast that even if they bounce off the stage, they often don't tech in time because HA gets Sonic from one point to another very fast. That's why the move works anyway in general when you don't use it much. I don't rely on this but its neat on occasion. People also tend to get nervous when you're above the stage one minute and below or next to the next with a strong hitbox.

Speaking of HA, I've been finding it useful as a recovery tool on occasion as well. When you hold up and the opponent is within your lock-on range, it kind of acts like Lucario's Extremespeed but it does all the work for you and hits harder. Not a staple tool but its another one of those uses for HA that seems to work when used sparingly.

 

[Camalange]

I honestly have the same problem as well. Too many characters in this game have recoveries that snap to the ledge or are otherwise unpunishable, making them safe from all but the most safe/least rewarding punishes (Spring coils) or the most committed but punishing options (Down Smash, Back Air, Up Smash, etc.)

Don't forget Dair/Dair Spike… Which is more of a mix-up, really.

Fsmash is also a good edgeguarding tool in certain situations, especially since you can angle it and it's disjointed.

The thing I get that meets a close, sweet, middle between the adorementioned are forward airs. At later percents (+ optional rage mode), this will kill if you hit somebody off-stage with it. Of course, you can't rely on this too often or people just airdodge through it as if you were in a situation similar to trying to stagespike Bair them. Alternativly, Fair has next to no range so anybody who is bold enough to challenge you while you're recovering will beat you convincingly.

It's powerful and quick enough that it can be unexpected.

Fair juggles are good, but especially effective on platforms like Smashville or Town and City that really help you carry them to the blast zone. Can get really early kills there.

I don't have a Wii-U myself ATM; so: does anybody here have a chance to tell me if perhaps Double Spring can you give you more (effective) follow-ups from a low-% UThrow? And if possible, can you still get the same punishes you can with regular Up-B or is it not possible due to stuff and things?

Well, double spring doesn't go as high as regular spring so you'll lose that…

Also, might as well just SH, jump, or DJ at that low of a percent. Especially since you can act of jump immediately as opposed to a low spring...

In the off-chance that customs actually become legal in Vegas, I'd like to have a bit of a head-start on some different options that may or may not be better in general or depending on the matchups.

Sonic's customs are incredibly underwhelming. There are none that are objectively worthwhile. They have really niche uses at best and comes down to preference.

I appreciate your input. This is more or less what I have been doing with the addition of Nairs as mixup (the super long duration often catches people I know like to airdodge and that's free damage). Guess I just need to get more precise.

Nair is also good at catching ledge snap vulnerability.

Oh one thing I have been doing as a mixup when my opponent is at high percents is Homing Attack off stage. I like to use it more when they recover low because it sometimes catches people so fast that even if they bounce off the stage, they often don't tech in time because HA gets Sonic from one point to another very fast. That's why the move works anyway in general when you don't use it much. I don't rely on this but its neat on occasion. People also tend to get nervous when you're above the stage one minute and below or next to the next with a strong hitbox.

You can true combo into HA at most percents from a particularly spaced SDR > SDJ.

I don't like going too deep with it anymore though, since it's more of a risk if you miss offstage now.

Speaking of HA, I've been finding it useful as a recovery tool on occasion as well. When you hold up and the opponent is within your lock-on range, it kind of acts like Lucario's Extremespeed but it does all the work for you and hits harder. Not a staple tool but its another one of those uses for HA that seems to work when used sparingly.

Very occasionally…

Sonic drops like a rock from a non-targeted HA. If you rely on it to hit your opponent for recovery, you could very well just be sending yourself to the bottom blast zone. Also, if Sonic connects with a wall, he falls like a brick since HA stalling was completely removed.

Extremespeed is a lot more versatile than HA though since you have control over it… You're sort of at mercy to HA and just have to accommodate for all of it's variables to get a good one, which is still not guaranteed if your opponent gets out of the lock-on in time.