Sonic General Discussion/Social thread

[DireDrop]

On an unrelated note, does anyone else do the dtilt-utilt juggle?

Once, on a night when the stars all aligned, I dtilt -> utilt -> BA -> fair spike -> dtilt -> utilt -> BA -> fair spike over the edge for the stock. It will never happen again, since my opponent DI'd poorly and didn't tech, but it was glorious. Dtilt -> utilt is legit.

 

[StriderAaron360]

Spin Shotting is difficult, but I'm starting to see how to do it consistently. When spin charging, I tap down and B quickly and lightly enough to get it going, then I press X right after. It's been working pretty well.

 

[FireBall Stars]

For spinshot I just move my finger from down in the stick to up almost the same time I release B. Works well, requires tap jump though.

 

[Espy Rose]

So I take it that a jump input right after downB's release is the only way.
That sucks.

 

[DoctorBoson]

Well if it was easy, they'd have to nerf it. I'd rather learn the timing and have a great recovery option than an okay recovery option.

Also, have I ever mentioned I love your Applejack sig?

Once, on a night when the stars all aligned, I dtilt -> utilt -> BA -> fair spike -> dtilt -> utilt -> BA -> fair spike over the edge for the stock. It will never happen again, since my opponent DI'd poorly and didn't tech, but it was glorious. Dtilt -> utilt is legit.

I really wish replays were easier to get a hold of in Project M without the WiFi hack.

 

[Espy Rose]

Why would they have to nerf it? Seriously, what kind of logic does that make? Technical skill is the last thing that P:M should even be toting. I want to know. I'm curious.

The timing in Brawl was more or less the same no matter which method you used. The only difference is that there were numerous methods in which to do it, while P:M shrunk that list to only one valid version. It's just jarring to someone who was so accustomed to a specific motion that has become useless despite the visuals appearing pretty much exactly the same.

Pretty much never is it a good choice to arbitrarily decide for a staple technique to be technically demanding on the players.

I'm not trying to gouge your throat out either. I just want some clarity.

 

[cmart]

Are you referring to the loss of spinshot via cstick? If so that was lost when we changed how cstick inputs were handled by down B charge. It was an unintentional side effect and not a targeted change.

 

[DireDrop]

Did the knock back of Side-B change? The change-list says that spin dash changed, which I thought only meant Down-B, but I could swear Side-B combos better as well.

 

[MeekSpeedy]

spinshot super easy for me since in Brawl I claw Y for it.

hi everyone

 

[Espy Rose]

Yeah. It's not too hard because everyone in Brawl learned how to tap/x/y spinshot first. The cstick method was the last one discovered anyways.

Before that, I relied on sideB > A for my spinshots, so it was tough for me to go back and learn the archaic method.

 

[DoctorBoson]

Why would they have to nerf it? Seriously, what kind of logic does that make? Technical skill is the last thing that P:M should even be toting. I want to know. I'm curious.

The timing in Brawl was more or less the same no matter which method you used. The only difference is that there were numerous methods in which to do it, while P:M shrunk that list to only one valid version. It's just jarring to someone who was so accustomed to a specific motion that has become useless despite the visuals appearing pretty much exactly the same.

Pretty much never is it a good choice to arbitrarily decide for a staple technique to be technically demanding on the players.

I'm not trying to gouge your throat out either. I just want some clarity.

Ah! My apologies, I thought the method you were looking for was a mechanically more simple method. However, if one method was simply easier to perform, then it would warrant a small nerf. The easier something is to do, the less (relatively speaking) it should pay off. My game knowledge isn't exactly spectacular, but for example, if Jigglypuff's rest was extended to 10 frames, then the knockback probably needs to be reduced to compensate since the move would be easier to land.

 

[allthetriumph]

I think even with the balancing in M, Sonic comes off as a little underpowered.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Maybe someone can answer this for me.

- Neutral Air now has a small initial sweetspot that deals 15 damage with strong knockback and has neutral frame advantage on block

Is the sweetspot inside of Sonic or at the tip of the hitbox? I assume its inside of him, and if so how large could it be?

 

[DireDrop]

Maybe someone can answer this for me.

Is the sweetspot inside of Sonic or at the tip of the hitbox? I assume its inside of him, and if so how large could it be?

I'm pretty sure it's inside Sonic. The sweetspot hitbox seems to be as big as or smaller than Sonic.

 

[JacopeX]

Attempting to grab out of Side B without sliding instead is so frikkin scary. I can' get consistent timing of it. =(

 

[DireDrop]

Attempting to grab out of Side B without slidding instead is so frikkin scary. I can' get consistent timing of it. =(

Wait for that subtle flash.

 

[Nguz95]

Maybe someone can answer this for me.



Is the sweetspot inside of Sonic or at the tip of the hitbox? I assume its inside of him, and if so how large could it be?

I just finished the frame data on that move, actually. His nair has 3 hitboxes: one in the center of his body, which has half the radius of his sphere, one that covers his entire sphere, and one sphere that fits in the other half of a radius that the first sweetspot doesn't cover. I'll post the data i gathered on nair when I get to my computer since it came up here. I'm making progress on the frame data. I'm currently figuring out how frame speed modifiers work, as he has some on moves like nair and side b.
Edit: Here is the data for nair

​

Total Frames: 50​

Hitbox: 3-38​

Landing Lag: 31​

L-canceled Landing Lag: 16​

IASA Frame: 44​

​

Analysis of Hitboxes:​

​

The small hitbox you can see in the center of Sonic at the beginning of the move is the sweetspot. It deals 15% and has relatively high knockback. It starts at frame 3 and lasts for 9 frames. The two weak hitboxes (the one that covers his sphere and the smallest one near the edge of the sphere) deal 11% and have significantly reduced knockback. After frame 12 all three hitboxes are covered with weaker hitboxes that only deal 8%. Those are again covered by even weaker hitboxes (5%) after frame 26. You will only be able to hit with those hitboxes until frame 38, when all hitboxes vanish.​

Attempting to grab out of Side B without slidding instead is so frikkin scary. I can' get consistent timing of it. =(

Try leaving a gap after you hit y/x before you hit z. I try to hit them like half notes with y coming before z. That way, if I do it too slowly, I jump and nair instead of doing the slide kick.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Thanks for the data, now to find ways to implement the shieldstun. Seems rather tough since most people who are at the range for it to hit shouldn't be scared into shielding. (You won't punish anything at least)

 

[Nguz95]

Are you talking about applying shield pressure? Usually when I approach with nair I either jab them to beat the grab, grab them if they get caught by the strong hitbox, or side b them if I manage to go behind them. If that's not what you're talking about, then someone else might have the answer. I'm not a crazy good Sonic, but I really like the character and I am trying to learn enough about him to main him.

 

[Nausicaa]

You know what's good to follow up with after a good N-Air on shield/whiff?
DD
You know what's not committing, safe, and easy to get rewards off of after anything Sonic does?
DD
You know how Sonic can get a free hit literally as incarnation of the character in PM so far if the opponent commits to anything too much?
DD

I heard he's fast and stuff.
Dashing is sexy.
Spin-Dashing is ok.

 

[Nguz95]

Interesting that you mention dash dancing. I was about to say that I am finding myself in a ball very little in comparison to 2.6 and 2.5.

 

[Solharath]

Really? I'm in a ball a lot more. SideB bugfix too strong. Unless Snake is involved, then I'm sliding across the stage completely asleep. However if you mash fast enough at early percents Sonic wakes up fast enough to act as though you just got some weird as hell wavedash. It's legit funny when you get hit by a tranq dart at 0% and get up before Snake can actually react.

 

[Nguz95]

That's interesting. Do you wd out of side b a lot? Are you sh nair/fairing more? I'd be interested to see how you're using his side-b if you're using it a lot more than before.

 

[Espy Rose]

Being in the ball is far more of a liability when you have infinitely more options standing and dashing, including going into those ball forms.

No reason to sacrifice Sonic's superior ground coverage by traveling via spins.

 

[Solharath]

Meh, I wasn't in a ball very much in 2.6 'cause it always just sucked, but now that Nair hits faster, and side-B can be cancelled faster(used to be that you spent at minimum a frame in the air before being on the ground, really, so the timer would always reset one frame later. This has been fixed), so I can pour on the shield pressure, then WD behind an opponent and go for a grab, or jab if they're a character with a low amount of jumpsquat frames. Oh short hop blast attack to get above them, and then side B away or over or whatever, the options are pretty fun and blast attacks screw with your opponent, even on shield.

Spin spin spin, moonwalk bairs, moonwalk ftilts, I spend so much time moonwalking. Sonic has so many different options out of his ground game - and that includes spins. Fast mobile hitboxes that can shield poke, or just JCGrab out of sideB if they shield.

Also if you hold B from the ground and do the full SideB hop, the timer passes before you hit the ground so you can DJ and waveland before hitting the ground with your SideB, which can mess with your opponent's timing if you condition them to react to your spins.

Also I just have fun with UpB out of SideB. Floatier characters can be caught up in the spring and can be Dair'd wonderfully.

Completely conditional, but my buddy was playing a Mewtwo. Shield poked with SideB, he tried to escape up, and I JCUpB my Side B and we both go up. Dair him, he DI's into the spring, I LCancel and Spring again, catch him on the way up with a Uair for the kill.

3.0 Sonic is just fun, and being able to react faster and without that horrifying bug from 2.6 holding his spin maneuvers back I think he stands a much better chance than before.

I wonder if they fixed his Dair physics so he doesn't sometimes just get stuck in air, immobile, after using it. Y'all know what I mean - when you get hit by an attack that doesn't cause much hitstun, and you input a dair, and Sonic just... doesn't move like he should? Hate that glitch - exceptionally prominent in Brawl 'cause lolwhati****stun.

 

[Shell]

IIRC Nair SS is 0 on block, which is one of the better moves in the game... not sure why you'd DD away when you can safely keep up your pressure.

 

[DireDrop]

IIRC Nair SS is 0 on block, which is one of the better moves in the game... not sure why you'd DD away when you can safely keep up your pressure.

What does "0 on block" mean?

 

[Shell]

It means that if you land the sweet spot against a shield on the last frame before going into l-canceled landing lag, you will be at the same neutral advantage/disadvantage as the opponent.

Dropping your shield takes ~14 frames before you can do another attack. You can do some attacks directly out of shield, though. You can grab directly out of shield (frame 7-8 are common, tethers are around 10-14), or go through one frame of jumpsquat before doing an Up-Smash or all of jumpsquat before doing an aerial attack (if a character has a 3 frame jump squat and frame 3 hitting nair this can be better than grabbing) . Lastly, you can do grounded Up-B directly out of shield, which can also sometimes be faster than grabbing.

Sonic's fastest moves (afaik) are Jab (frame 3), Down-B charge (5), Side-B (5), U-tilt (6), and D-tilt (7). Depending upon the options your opponent has out of shield you are very likely guaranteed to get any of those faster options off before the opponent can do anything in response.

 

[Espy Rose]

IIRC Nair SS is 0 on block, which is one of the better moves in the game... not sure why you'd DD away when you can safely keep up your pressure.

Because it has zero range and loses out to an entire list of moves if the opponent isn't dumb.

 

[Shell]

Because it has zero range and loses out to an entire list of moves if the opponent isn't dumb.

My post was more meant as a response to Nausicaa's post encouraging DD after Nair on block, I was not suggesting Nair SS to be an easy thing to land during neutral at all, just making sure people are capitalizing on their quite favorable offensive options if they've managed to land it.

You know what's good to follow up with after a good N-Air on shield/whiff?
DD

 

[Ariyo]

I just finished the frame data on that move, actually. His nair has 3 hitboxes: one in the center of his body, which has half the radius of his sphere, one that covers his entire sphere, and one sphere that fits in the other half of a radius that the first sweetspot doesn't cover. I'll post the data i gathered on nair when I get to my computer since it came up here. I'm making progress on the frame data. I'm currently figuring out how frame speed modifiers work, as he has some on moves like nair and side b.
Edit: Here is the data for nair

View attachment 5116​

​

Total Frames: 50​

Hitbox: 3-38​

Landing Lag: 31​

L-canceled Landing Lag: 16​

IASA Frame: 44​

​

Analysis of Hitboxes:

The small hitbox you can see in the center of Sonic at the beginning of the move is the sweetspot. It deals 15% and has relatively high knockback. It starts at frame 3 and lasts for 9 frames. The two weak hitboxes (the one that covers his sphere and the smallest one near the edge of the sphere) deal 11% and have significantly reduced knockback. After frame 12 all three hitboxes are covered with weaker hitboxes that only deal 8%. Those are again covered by even weaker hitboxes (5%) after frame 26. You will only be able to hit with those hitboxes until frame 38, when all hitboxes vanish.

Will you be posting frame advantage along with these?

 

[Nguz95]

If I can figure it out, then yeah. However, I'll post stuff sequentially. I'm finally on break, so I can finish the other third of data gathering I need to. I'll post data first, images second, and the analysis last.

 

[Solharath]

Any other PM Sonic's heading to APEX?

 

[Espy Rose]

Played a lot of pmers the other weekend, including m2k and denti.
Spinning is useless against good players.

 

[Solharath]

Maybe you should stop being bad.

...no really spin still has a good time. You just can't spam it. I might be drunk right now but seriously man don't spam it what. Espy you are considered a good Sonic in Brawl you know that against 'good players' you can't just auto-pilot that. Srsly why even... yeah man. Spin is useless against good players if you use it wrong.

 

[GabPR]

Does anyone spinshots at the edge a lot for mindgames? In many stages if you time it right you can let go of the ledge and spinshot to sweetspot it again. besides that you can change the timing so if you spinshot a bit earlier after letting go of the ledge you go into the stage and do a surprise nair (also any aerial or specials) to unsuspecting opponents. Just curious if anyone else implements this idea or does it differently.

 

[Solharath]

I don't spinshot a lot, but now I'm thinkin' about those applications you're talking about and that might change. Good idea, mate. I'll have to test them out.

Speaking of testing things out anyone try Gattling with Sonic in 3.0? I did a lot of research into it with 2.6b but since they changed Dash Attack, I haven't looked into it. It might be way better!

 

[GabPR]

What is gattling? Im not too familiar with the terminology

 

[Nguz95]

It's when you cancel your dash attack into an upsmash right after making contact with the dash attack. It contrasts with DACUS, which skips the dash attack animation entirely and moves the character across the screen.
To address your point, Solharath, I just looked through the chagelog and it doesn't look as if dash attack was changed. However, I do think it's worth looking at dash attack's utility, as its hitboxes come out extremely early. It's not incredibly useful, but I think that there should be a few good uses for it. I'm currently unable to come up with any for it though.

 

[GabPR]

I was thinking of uploading in the future some matches I played with computers just showing what uses I implement with things like spinshotting or edguarding. Would anybody be interested?