Sonic General Discussion/Social thread

[DireDrop]

First of all, proper Aerial Side B. We all know if you hop and carry any vertical momentum, Sonic will do a small hop Side B. That has no technical bearing but it's worth being said. If you Side-B in any direction and immediately hold back, Sonic will uncurl faster. This allows Sonic to operate out of SideB a lot faster without wasting a double jump, or if you managed to use it while already having consumed a double jump. You have to be careful with this because if you can easily send yourself the opposite direction if you switch directions too quickly.

This is turning out to be super helpful. Nice tip Solharath.

 

[Player -0]

If anyone could get a gif or video up on the "quick uncurl Side-B" that would be awesome. Not sure if I'm doing it or not.

 

[Solharath]

ADVANCING THE METAGAME! now buff ftiltpls

If anyone could get a gif or video up on the "quick uncurl Side-B" that would be awesome. Not sure if I'm doing it or not.

I lent my capture card to a buddy awhile back so you won't get video capture from me. The aerial version is more for recoveries and juking your opponent. I feel the grounded version has the most potential because the hop-hitbox pops people up perfectly for combos.

 

[DireDrop]

ADVANCING THE METAGAME! now buff ftiltpls

I lent my capture card to a buddy awhile back so you won't get video capture from me. The aerial version is more for recoveries and juking your opponent. I feel the grounded version has the most potential because the hop-hitbox pops people up perfectly for combos.

The grounded version is super hard (for me anyway, is the window only 1 frame?). I like having something super technical to work on.

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

The grounded-hop Side-B is pretty much the same, however being so close to the ground, if you press back quick enough(Within a frame after the Side-B has a guaranteed direction), Sonic will land on the stage without rolling. This allows for any on-hit followups you please, this allows greater control over Sonic, without resorting to a 10-frame wavedash or JC-Option.

I've been working on doing this one and it is really promising. It sets up Utilt very nicely, and USmash as well at low percents.

 

[Player -0]

Playing a bit more I feel like Up-Smash is a good move it's just outclassed by other moves a lot. A good set up for Up Smash could be SHFFL Nair -> Run -> CC the run -> Down-Tilt -> Up Smash.

The problem is that with Sonic being such a good combo character you're usually stuck in an aerial position to finish after combos. Good platform usage could negate this but platforms are combo extenders too so you really just have to decide whether you want to send them off or continue the combo for a closer to the blastzone kill or a spike. Just depends on the percent I guess.

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

I agree that UpSmash is a good move. I like to use it to set up a Up-B into Uair kill mostly.

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

Shameless double post. But while working on the Side-B tech that Solh mentioned, I found another interesting tech with Sonic's Side B.
Pretty much exactly the same input as a blast attack, except with Side-B rather than neutral. This gives you the Side-B startup frames of attack, however the small hop isn't preformed but rather you keep going straight. This is really useful at the edges of the stage as it immediately cancels once you are off the stage and can set up Sonic's Fair meteor very well. I've also used it as a combo starter and followed up with a Down-B for large damage output.

BTW if this is known already and was mentioned before, Just let me have my moment plz q.q

 

[Player -0]

Shameless double post. But while working on the Side-B tech that Solh mentioned, I found another interesting tech with Sonic's Side B.
Pretty much exactly the same input as a blast attack, except with Side-B rather than neutral. This gives you the Side-B startup frames of attack, however the small hop isn't preformed but rather you keep going straight. This is really useful at the edges of the stage as it immediately cancels once you are off the stage and can set up Sonic's Fair meteor very well. I've also used it as a combo starter and followed up with a Down-B for large damage output.

BTW if this is known already and was mentioned before, Just let me have my moment plz q.q

If you're talking about the Side B in which you don't jump then that's known. It's the thing Wizzy used on M2K, weak side B -> wavedash -> Repeat.

 

[Solharath]

Just Fyi it's a good idea to work taunt canceling into your edgeguarding game. It opens up all your options. Also you scream at your opponent it's great.

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

Just Fyi it's a good idea to work taunt canceling into your edgeguarding game. It opens up all your options. Also you scream at your opponent it's great.

Can you go more into depth with this? I've always seen Taunt Canceling as something more flashy than anything else and Never saw it useful for edge guarding.

Also, do you know how the ledge guarding in this video is done? I haven't heard anything about it, but have seen it used in quite a few sonic videos and is something I'd want to add to my game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9dpHFP7Pvw

 

[Player -0]

Can you go more into depth with this? I've always seen Taunt Canceling as something more flashy than anything else and Never saw it useful for edge guarding.

Also, do you know how the ledge guarding in this video is done? I haven't heard anything about it, but have seen it used in quite a few sonic videos and is something I'd want to add to my game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9dpHFP7Pvw

Spoiler

http://www.********/images/ancient-aliens-guy/its-a-joke-thumb.jpg

 

[Solharath]

Player-0 your pic is broken.

Anyway, taunt cancelling the edge leaves you in your edge animation, which is functionally the same thing as standing still. The fact Sonic slides so far when he taunt cancels and loses very little momentum right before he comes to a dead halt leaves it a better alternative to his skid animation(which would also put you in your edge-teetering animation). The main difference here, though, is that a taunt cancel will also work out of a dash, which is super-important.

Anyway, if you're looking to get the most distance with a move, at the fastest speed, taunt cancelling into an edge immediately allows you to perform any grounded move you please, the most obvious being Sonic's F-tilt, which when performed at the edge extends ludicrously far into the open space(fun fact: Sonic's hands aren't even on the stage anymore). Other notable moves are FSmash, jab, and utilt. No run-cancels necessary for maximum frames.

This is something all characters can use, but it's plenty more useful for Sonic, and amusingly, Ganondorf, from what I've found. Timing and input are a little strict, but not nearly as frame-perfect as something like skid-stop cancel would be.

That said, cancelling the skid out of Down-B by triggering it near the edge sounds very useful. I just thought about it. Hmm...

 

[Player -0]

Player-0 your pic is broken.

Anyway, taunt cancelling the edge leaves you in your edge animation, which is functionally the same thing as standing still. The fact Sonic slides so far when he taunt cancels and loses very little momentum right before he comes to a dead halt leaves it a better alternative to his skid animation(which would also put you in your edge-teetering animation). The main difference here, though, is that a taunt cancel will also work out of a dash, which is super-important.

Anyway, if you're looking to get the most distance with a move, at the fastest speed, taunt cancelling into an edge immediately allows you to perform any grounded move you please, the most obvious being Sonic's F-tilt, which when performed at the edge extends ludicrously far into the open space(fun fact: Sonic's hands aren't even on the stage anymore). Other notable moves are FSmash, jab, and utilt. No run-cancels necessary for maximum frames.

This is something all characters can use, but it's plenty more useful for Sonic, and amusingly, Ganondorf, from what I've found. Timing and input are a little strict, but not nearly as frame-perfect as something like skid-stop cancel would be.

That said, cancelling the skid out of Down-B by triggering it near the edge sounds very useful. I just thought about it. Hmm...

Meh, Idk. (About the picture)

Didn't think you meant it was literally good to use, I see what you're saying though. Most people just wavedash or CC the run but being able to instantly cancel a dash or a run into a move seems useful, situationally though. Probably mostly useful on platforms because you don't want to be DIRECTLY on the edge if trying to edgeguard.

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

Meh, Idk. (About the picture)

Didn't think you meant it was literally good to use, I see what you're saying though. Most people just wavedash or CC the run but being able to instantly cancel a dash or a run into a move seems useful, situationally though. Probably mostly useful on platforms because you don't want to be DIRECTLY on the edge if trying to edgeguard.

It could be really useful for anyone with a horizontal recovery I'd assume, f-tilt them out in space and then you have a few followup options from there. Nair kill comes to mind as well as an edge hog.

 

[arata18]

You could even taunt cancel to the ledge that way you have no momentum from your dash for spacing to short hop-fair edge guard or full hop-uair, fair, or dair depending on where your opponent is, percentage and just how flashy you want to get on them.

Not to detract from the topic at hand, but I found a tech that I have found useful in certain situations from my friendlies with people and such. If you downb and then skid-stop at the right spacing to the ledge it cancels the lag of the skid-stop and you fall off the ledge pretty much straight down with no DI. You can use this with the right spacing to drop into a nair, or fair, or fast-fall double jump into fair, or nair depending on spacing.
Those some of the edge guarding uses, for combo and mindgame uses, you can down b through someone who is near the edge of the stage after you short-hop nair or side b them or any other set up sonic has (many for this), cancel down b into skid stop, fall and double jump up to where they are flying from your down b and proceed to any ariel you want like fair, nair or u-air depending on percent.
One thing that I had not thought about to try is to attempt to skid-stop and reverse the direction of the fall right as the skid stop is cancelling on the ledge... This would lead to a double jump bair set up which could lead to edge guards and kills at much earlier percents. Now I will set out to explore these tech options more in practice and matches and post again when I find out more. If this tech has already been covered, please someone let me know.

EDIT: OMG Solharath I see that you posulated that it might have some utility to canceling the skid downb by doing it near an edge a few posts earlier but you did not post any possible uses or confirmed uses for it. I believe that it can have a few uses although I have not played yet at a very high level. Friendlies and tournaments in spokane with some people here only give me so much experience.
What do you think the cancel can be used for?

 

[Solharath]

If this tech has already been covered, please someone let me know.

Literally three posts above you.

Edit: I guess if we're playing the 'edit' game to respond to each other, the main thing I'm finding from this is that it doesn't act like Sonic's normal skid stop, and 100% will drop you from the edge no matter the spacing. So what set is apart from the side-b edge cancel is that this maintains zero momentum.

This is fantastic.

So now we have another option for edgeguarding, and this one just screams to dismantle tether recoveries and, if properly timed, deal with tricky recoveries like Link's UpB. Fair immediately comes to mind, especially against Lucas's tether. For longer tethers, I'd recommend either Nair or even Uair, as I've been known to uair juggle a recovering opponent from down low up until their killed off the ceiling(I believe I defeated Anther a couple times with this strategy last weekend. Not sure if they were recorded, I may have been doing this more in teams).

Either way, this gives us a third edge-cancel option - side-b off for momentum, down-B skid cancel for 0-point drop, and taunt cancel for maximum distance while staying grounded on stage. You can mix either Side/Down B with the usual Side-B recovery hog as well.

I doubt I'll have time to really add these to my game before Shuffle in anything resembling coherent play, but I'm going to keep them in mind anyway.

 

[arata18]

Solharath, LOL we were playing the edit game for a moment but this is easier to follow for everyone so I'll just reply. Great, so you have noticed the same tech that I have that it will cancel all of your momentum no matter the spacing on the downb skid stop (or whatever it is supposed to be called) and drop you straight down. I agree that it will be useful for tether recoveries for sure because it will put you in a spot to easily hit them off stage or DJ onto stage and hit them... Also, depending on the MU you could possibly use this to suprise an enemy recovering low or attempting to sweetspot if properly timed. 3 options to transition from the stage to ledge, and offstage play around the edge seems like it has amazing potential for mindgames. I have been mixing the ledge canceling with just stopping on stage, and jumping out of down b so that it does not get predictable.
OMG wait a minute... cancel down b into stop animation cancelled to get off stage, and then turn around spinshot back onto stage for spacing if the enemy is rushing in expecting a normal dj onto the stage for mindgames and spacing... This could be godlike
I will be posting more ideas as they come to me and confirming tricks that work when I get the chance next to play against anyone decent at PM

 

[StriderAaron360]

Does anyone know what numbers look like what for Sonic?

fitsonic05 is his black alt. What are the others?

 

[Nazo]

Does anyone know what numbers look like what for Sonic?

fitsonic05 is his black alt. What are the others?

00-Original
01-Red
02-Green
04-Gold
05-Black

 

[Solharath]

He's purple now, as well. I think that's over the gold color now. Just something to bring up 'cause it's most certainly a thing.

Really wish they'd improve Sonic's alternate colors. Them sickly yellow vomit shoes on green Sonic really harshes my mellow. They need to run my texture for Green Sonic.

 

[Arrow (Kyle)]

I like the Yellow Shoes on his Green Texture though, that's my favorite texture, purple is sweet too though.

 

[Solharath]

I tend to just run with a simple palette mod with a much more colorful green Sonic with blue shoes. Those mustard shoes need to go.

So I placed 9th at Shuffle. Panicked hard against Oro and was stomped accordingly. Well, maybe not stomped as we went to game 3 last stock, but he is the better player, though. He kept his cool and nailed what he needed to get for the game, and placed into Top 8 ahead of me. I'm not salty about it – I didn't play well enough imo to beat him out.

I did like, no useful or successful inputs for the techniques I've listed here, either(at least on my one set on stream). Not that they're bad, I'm just horrid under pressure still. I'll get there, guys, and be able to show off what Sonic can do(so that he may be kneejerk nerfed in response).

 

[SpiderMad]

00-Original
01-Red
02-Green
04-Gold
05-Black

How are you normally AZ but played at Xanadu? Why did you use a Wiimote and sticked with it? How long have you been playing Smash? When did you pick up Sonic? How do you manage to play with a Wiimote so good? Did you customize your controls on it? What are the perks and issues with using a Wiimote versus a controller? What's Sonics best and worst MUs? What's the best tips for starting out sonics? What's the best tips for beating Sonic, and what's his worst/best stages?

 

[Nazo]

How are you normally AZ but played at Xanadu?

I live in MD but I attend school in Arizona; every semester break I normally go back over to MD.

Why did you use a Wiimote and sticked with it?

Long story short: my gamecube controllers and games were all stolen from my home the day before I purchased a wii and a copy of brawl; wiimote was all I had to work with, so I learned to cope with it, been using it ever since.

How long have you been playing Smash?

smash in general? or like, competitively? I've played brawl for about 5-6 years competitively. I played melee for a short while before brawl's release, but not competitively, mostly items and FFAs.

When did you pick up Sonic?

The first day I got brawl. Went straight to classic mode and played until I unlocked Sonic.

How do you manage to play with a Wiimote so good? Did you customize your controls on it? What are the perks and issues with using a Wiimote versus a controller?

Wiichuck just feels natural to me now that I've been using it for so many years. I do use custom controls also, only like 3 minor adjustments though (Up and Down on Dpad are changed to Usmash/Jump). The only real downside to using wiichuck imo is the lack of Cstick. The button layout for wiichuck makes technical things (imo) easier to perform, like wavedashing, multishining, and most other techs that require long-ranged thumb motions on the GCC. I'm still capable of using a GCC of course, I just can't be as reactive with it or play at a technical level equevelant to my wiichuck.

What's Sonics best and worst MUs?

Mmmmm...

I can't honestly fully answer the question, since I haven't played every MU at top level. But from what I've gathered so far these are sonic's more difficult MUs:

Metaknight
Snake
ROB
Lucas
Marth
Donkey Kong

I can't really speak on behalf of Sonic's better MUs, but just assume that every MU not listed is either 50/50 or slightly in sonic's favor.

What's the best tips for starting out sonics?

Dash dance bait a lot. Punishing rolls, spot dodges, shields, techs, and whiffed attacks are sonic's strong points.

What's the best tips for beating Sonic, and what's his worst/best stages?

beating Sonic? Trades, tech chases, and punishing landings/recovery.

Stages for Sonic are dependent on what MU you're playing. but most of the time you'll want a stage with decent open space, like PS2. Personally, my favorite stages as sonic are WarioWare, Smashville and Yoshi's Island; least favorite being Lylat and Yoshi's Story.

 

[Espy Rose]

ROB, Marth, and DK aren't a problem.

Meta Knight and Lucas I might agree with. Add Falco to that list too.

 

[Solharath]

Falco ruins Sonic with those lasers and dair. I don't care how much anti-spacie tech Sonic has or doesn't have that bird is a monster to deal with.

I'd agree on Marth and I've had difficulty with ROB in the past, but I won't weight in on that one. Honestly I haven't had the worst time with MK or Lucas though, but they aren't easy matchups to be sure.

Honestly I think Link is Sonic's worst matchup. If you're knocked into hitstun by anything he'll just toss a boomerang and you're in for a free Fair/Uair/You're dead. At least with the Link's I play I dunno.

 

[Nazo]

I'm not implying that they're horrible MUs, just slightly in the opponents favor is all.

 

[MVP]

what MU are not in sonic's favor?

 

[StriderAaron360]

Pretty much anybody with a good crouch cancel, fast attacks, good combos, and high priority hitboxes.

 

[TwicH]

I don't think Sonic has any horrible MUs. (Except maybe Falco.)

He should do fine as long as you're good at spacing, baiting and punishing.

 

[Espy Rose]

Fight a good Meta Knight/Falco.

 

[TwicH]

MK's Nair > Sonic, GG!

But then again it's not like the Sonic vs. MK MU in Brawl.

 

[MWEX]

I have fought all those characters, and falco is that bad if you just stay in shield and the jump onto the platform, and flat stages are easier or equal to, because of lasers.
Platform Stages: Dodge falco through platforms, and if he approaches, nair oos or grab
Flat: Jump oos and try your hardest for that homing attack

If any of you have Skype, add me
sonicninethousand

 

[Player -0]

"Just stay in shield"

Isn't that where Falco and Fox excel? In shield pressure?

 

[DireDrop]

Falco ruins Sonic with those lasers and dair. I don't care how much anti-spacie tech Sonic has or doesn't have that bird is a monster to deal with.

I'd agree on Marth and I've had difficulty with ROB in the past, but I won't weight in on that one. Honestly I haven't had the worst time with MK or Lucas though, but they aren't easy matchups to be sure.

Honestly I think Link is Sonic's worst matchup. If you're knocked into hitstun by anything he'll just toss a boomerang and you're in for a free Fair/Uair/You're dead. At least with the Link's I play I dunno.

Solharath, I saw your set against Oro!? from Shuffle V. What's your opinion on Warioware as a stage? I always felt it was Sonic's worst stage but you seemed to handle yourself pretty well.

 

[TwicH]

Warioware has a lot of platforms for Sonic to cancel spins early with giving him great mobility. I still prefer bigger stages though.

 

[DireDrop]

How are you canceling spins early with platforms?

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

If a falco is using Dair for approaching use well-spaced fairs and up-tilts.

 

[Solharath]

Solharath, I saw your set against Oro!? from Shuffle V. What's your opinion on Warioware as a stage? I always felt it was Sonic's worst stage but you seemed to handle yourself pretty well.

I think Wario Ware is Sonic's best stage by far in most cases. He may be light and die fast, but his sourspot moves actually do a lot of killing on this stage, which is Sonic's biggest weakness. Add in the platforms for mobility's sake and the fact that you can uair combo for days on this stage and you've got what I find to be Sonic's best stage.

I mean, it's very much a double edged sword, but with Sonic, that's the best you can do. He is not a stable character by any means. He's volatile. If you're looking for stages Sonic can be considered safest on... Eh, I tend to run with PS2, but I play all-or-nothing style, so I stick to Yoshi's and WW most times, only PS2 if I'm feeling threatened/they've struck WW.