Sonic General Discussion/Social thread

[Espy Rose]

I'd cosign to Sonic getting back the multihit usmash. It was his best pressure/poking/shield poke from below a platform.

 

[FireBall Stars]

Sonic had the multihit Brawl Usmash between 1.0 and 2.5.

The nature of the game allows non tumble ASDI, which rendered the move punishable on hit and basically unusable. Most opponents would get out of the move before it had any effect on them. Brawl uptilt was changed due to similar reasons.

An inside discussion reached the consensus after more than 3 months of extensive analysis that turning it into a single hit kill move would better explore the anti-air capabilities of the big hitbox, small hurtbox of the move and make hitting actually rewarding. Turning it into a positional deterrent that wins over most Dairs of the game and most likely trades with the rest. It is one of few moves Sonic has that high "priority". It is still a situational move and not fundamental for Sonic's gameplay, not a move to be used against grounded opponents.

Ftilt being buffed back to 2.5 is definitely not happening, sorry.

Also, Nazo, good job on getting 3rd place on xanadu. Watched your match against Jcaesar, it was very entertaining, it's good to see someone figuring how Blast Attack can be used in match. JCz' edgeguarding was on point as well as his neutral game, I could see you winning that set, but some selected errors gave JCz the upper hand against you as he seemed to know more what to do against Sonic than you did on ROB, I'm sure you'd be able to win with more experience in the MU. Really good set, congratulations on your movement.

 

[GabPR]

Honestly guys I believe we are being a bit too hasty on judging Sonic 3.0 so quickly to be asking for changes on his moveset, I think its better to let people develop his tech for a few months since he still has much to be discovered and put into practice. I will say this, I dislike having to learn a new Moveset over and over again since its like learning a new character, having to start from scratch, and right now his current moveset is really promising. I agree with Fireball Stars.

 

[Espy Rose]

I'd agree with that, but patches.
Exploring his moveset is fine, but it's not really going to take any real shape until the final P:M is released. Until then, everything works, even if it shouldn't.

 

[Solharath]

Brawl USmash was a particularly messy bit of hitboxes that worked similarly to Wario's now, except that on the edge you could end up with a semi-spike hitbox(Much like Roy's USmash(I mean it could happen anytime but the edge was where it was most useful), and it carried some invincibility frames, so you could time it right and end up with a brilliant anti-air option. Extensive backroom testing is one thing, but I'd argue you can still make a mistake even with months of deliberation. The point is you should always be open to the possibility that not everything is final just as much as we should. Give the move a second look, how often do players really SDI out of it? As much as Wario's? If you changed Sonic's USmash to the Brawl Utilt, would it not be more like Pit's USmash, or Meta Knights, which you've decided to keep in despite the ability to SDI out of? I dunno, having a move with comparably low power with some serious startup(18 frames? I dunno), only a slight disjoint... yeah look most characters can see the start up and get out of the way, or there is a far better option Sonic should be using. I appreciate a lot of what you guys do, but Usmash is a move that comes out with I tech error, like Ganon's old Utilt.

As for his ftilt, the common complaint was that it was as strong or stronger than Sheik's fair, which always brings up the same response from me: So? Sheik has reliable setups at nearly any percent that leads into her her deadly fair, Sonic's ftilt is slower than that, and is used to poke. If your opponent isn't recovering well, that's an issue on your opponent needing to improve, not a sign that Sonic needs to be nerfed. The old ftilt is most dangerous as an edgeguarding tool when your opponent fails to get the ledge or goes in for any reason - this puts Sonic's ftilt on par with - well, not on par but brings it more in line with something like Falco's FSmash.

Y'all want a Sonic that doesn't change drastically from edition to edition, which is cool and I respect that, but I'd rather like a Sonic that feels like all avenues were explored and this is the best case scenario for everyone. That means actually going back and testing and discussing earlier ideas and seeing if they work different now that everyone else has been changed and more global edits to the system have been made. Or give us a sign that you've already done so.

I appreciate everything you guys do. Project M is the most fun I've ever had in a Smash game, and I'm not doing this to improve mine or Nazo's or Wizzrobe's tournament placing, or make Sonic stronger for the sake of being stronger. You may argue that I'm only offering buffs and not other tweaks but I've gone over Sonic's moveset and found he's pretty much standard and average across the board with his moves, and I'm only arguing to bring the rest of him up to par with the rest of the cast.

If he doesn't see further changes, I likely won't be happy, but I'll deal with it. I mean, he's no 2.6 Sonic, so we've got that going for him, which is nice.

 

[Nazo]

 

[FireBall Stars]

Fair enough, I respect your opinion, but I stand in the side of "it was a good decision". Keep in mind that from 1.0 to 2.5 was basically more than 2 years of development, and that the full cast has always been available to testing and most global edits are done months before the actual releases.

Regarding ftilt, as you stated, it is a poking move, and has a good amount of reach and was designed to do that, poking not killing. The high kb and low angle (specially on ftiltdown) on the 2.5 were an oversight honestly, you don't see such a angle on the limit of semi-spike in angleable ftilts across the cast.

I personally am on the side that Sonic is a really good character, but he is rather complex, it will take time for his metagame to develop.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

Sonic in 3.0 is fine the way he is, let his metagame progress and we'll see what happens from there.

 

[DireDrop]

I personally am on the side that Sonic is a really good character, but he is rather complex, it will take time for his metagame to develop.

This is a little off topic but I would really appreciate your input on this question.

Could Sonic have the ability to "wavebounce" his blast attack? I now that might seem a bit silly since the point of wavebouncing is to reverse momentum during a special, and Sonic's special cancels all momentum, but hear me out. If you want to reverse BA OOS, you have to input the stick in the opposite direction and let it come to rest, then execute the BA. I don't think this is very efficient. If Sonic could wavebounce his BA, you wouldn't need to let the stick come to rest after inputting the homing attack. It's faster, easier, and in my opinion it makes more sense. Almost every other character in the game wavebounce their neutral Bs. I feel like Sonic should have the same option, even if it only gives him a different choice of input.

Thanks for everything you do!

 

[cmart]

I'm gonna go down memory lane her for a bit and talk about forward tilt. Previous to the 2.5 revamp of Sonic, his forward tilt was a variation on the brawl original - a moderate strength double hit poke whose strength was that his large foot had no hurtbox - making it surprisingly disjointed. For 2.5, the mulithit nature was called into question, and that aspect removed. A lot of other things happened at the same time, and that particular change was made without a lot of review or oversight (it honestly should have been a simple change). Following 2.5, and the sudden realization that we shipped something unquestionably toxic, I went back over Sonic's moveset and re-examined just about everything. I discovered that when the first hit of forward tilt was removed - the damage of the second hit was changed to match the combined damage of both and the knockback never adjusted to match. This seems fine if you don't know how hitboxes are coded. Damage is a vital factor in a move's knockback - considering that most knockback values in melee were standardized across a small band, damage is probably the most important variable. Sonic's second hit previously had low damage, and had knockback values that were higher to compensate for having such low damage. Doubling the damage made it a murder tilt that did far and away more knockback than just about any comparable tilt in the game. And at a silly low trajectory to boot. Gimp attacks generally should not have high knockback associated with them (Falcon's knee being a notable exception) and certainly ranged, disjointed tilts on a speedy character shouldn't hit like Ganon.

Whenever someone advocates returning to 2.5 forward tilt, I honestly find it more than a little surprising. The move is probably most comparable to Ganon's or Bowser's. Solharath just compared it to one of the best fsmashes in the game. If comparing a tilt to a best in class forward smash doesn't raise alarm bells, I'm not sure what would. And why does Sonic justifiably need such a strong move? Because he needs more kill power? I find that unlikely after 3.0's changes. Because he can't edgeguard? Again, I'm skeptical of such a claim. I've seen sentiment that he has trouble zoning against hitboxes (and received a decent amount of playtesting feedback to that effect), but the move already has strong disjoint and enough punch to be threatening in neutral. Making it stupid powerful isn't going to change its utility - just make the reward disproportionate to the effort expenditure.

This is one of those situations where I can only surmise that the call to return to 2.5 forward tilt is more out of disappointment over what was lost, rather than an honest appraisal of what would be best.

 

[Nguz95]

Interesting that you mention damage being an essential part of calculating knockback. When I was working on my Mewtwo PSA, I ran into a similar problem with his ftilt. I upped the damage a little, went to play test it, and realized that the ftilt was stronger than his fsmash. I did some research and found exactly what you stated: damage has a disproportionate effect on knockback. I didn't know Brawl's ftilt had two hits. That's very interesting. Thank you for the insight. It's always fun to see how the PMBR works through issues.

 

[Espy Rose]

Damnit you new blood.
You guys seriously need to read up on Brawl Sonic.

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

I like Sonic alot :3

 

[Solharath]

Alright, I've had time to think about it and it's time to respond in kind.

I'm gonna go down memory lane her for a bit and talk about forward tilt. Previous to the 2.5 revamp of Sonic, his forward tilt was a variation on the brawl original - a moderate strength double hit poke whose strength was that his large foot had no hurtbox - making it surprisingly disjointed.

And now he has a hurtbox on the move, making it surprisingly ineffective for edgeguarding many recoveries.

For 2.5, the mulithit nature was called into question, and that aspect removed. A lot of other things happened at the same time, and that particular change was made without a lot of review or oversight (it honestly should have been a simple change). Following 2.5, and the sudden realization that we shipped something unquestionably toxic,

This is actually the part I wanted to get into. "Unquestionably toxic" is something that is being thrown around a lot these days. It's this wonderful catch-all tool I see a lot of the PMBR using, or more accurately, what I see common players whining about when they call for a nerf. I see it surrounding Spacies, Zelda, Ivysaur... While some of these can be justified, this trend needs to stop. A strong move can be just that - a strong move. Toxicity would involve an entire metagame revolving around a single move and nearly nothing else.

I went back over Sonic's moveset and re-examined just about everything. I discovered that when the first hit of forward tilt was removed - the damage of the second hit was changed to match the combined damage of both and the knockback never adjusted to match. This seems fine if you don't know how hitboxes are coded. Damage is a vital factor in a move's knockback - considering that most knockback values in melee were standardized across a small band, damage is probably the most important variable. Sonic's second hit previously had low damage, and had knockback values that were higher to compensate for having such low damage. Doubling the damage made it a murder tilt that did far and away more knockback than just about any comparable tilt in the game. And at a silly low trajectory to boot. Gimp attacks generally should not have high knockback associated with them (Falcon's knee being a notable exception) and certainly ranged, disjointed tilts on a speedy character shouldn't hit like Ganon.

On paper this sounds like a good argument. I spent a good few days mulling over it. Yeah, why should there be a murder weapon on a character so fast with so many tricks as Sonic? Except the exception. Why is it just Falcon, the second fastest character in the game? The one who carries a long list of options that lead into this move that Sonic lacks? The ftilt is not a move that is combo'd into easily by any means at mid-high percents, not in the way Falcon can dish out. To set up a guaranteed ftilt kill would require a meteor/spike hit on a grounded opponent, requiring much more finesse than Raptor Boost/Dthrow/Uthrow/sourspot-fair. The speed coupled with Falcon's fastfaller nature also allow him to mixup his shorthop game to help get the grab he needs, something the much floatier Sonic cannot do. The Knee also can be setup anywhere - Sonic is forced to stay to the stage with his ftilt, which is also a slower move altogether. Especially when Sonic can be shieldgrabbed mercilessly due to his feet being unable to push his opponent far enough away, even under the old, Brawl shield pushback.

I will go as far to say that a nerf was incoming on ftilt - the low trajectory was a bit off, but the power made sense coming from the character. The fastest thing on two legs just full on threw his entire existence into donkey kicking you in the face. It's going to do more than tickle, and that's on a thematic sense.

Whenever someone advocates returning to 2.5 forward tilt, I honestly find it more than a little surprising. The move is probably most comparable to Ganon's or Bowser's. Solharath just compared it to one of the best fsmashes in the game. If comparing a tilt to a best in class forward smash doesn't raise alarm bells, I'm not sure what would.

This is also where I wanted to stop you, and in conversation I would have as I have done many times with other smashers. An FSmash need not be stronger than an ftilt by any means. This is apples and oranges. Isn't the sweetspot on MK's utilt stronger than his USmash, after all(I haven't tested this but Ganon's sure is strong and has combo potential)? Smashes are strong by name alone, sure, but the technical aspect of a Smash, and their true strength, has come from the ability to charge them. To bait out spot dodges, to read a roll, and a great many other uses. To compare a tilt's raw power to one of the best FSmashes in the game sounds like a good argument, but that actually has no bearing on it at all. Not to mention we're talking about comparing it to the character who undeniably boasts the best dair in the game, one of the best DSpecials in the game, one of the best Neutral Specials in the game, and one of the best bairs in the game. Flub your recovery or edgeguard and you might even get spiked by his side special. And you're arguing that giving Sonic a tool that could be described as one of the best in the game is going too far? Sonic who cannot easily claim to have a best anything in this game, even speed? Sure, land speed is one thing, but he is still a slower character overall than both Fox and Falcon.

It's so easy to call out a strong move on a PM-specific character, and yet be so dismissive of such 'toxic' qualities of the Melee elite.

And why does Sonic justifiably need such a strong move?

Why does he justifibly need a move that can be crouchcancelled to absurd percentages against a large portion of the cast, that if shielded can be easily grabbed out of, even from behind, because of his massive feat?

Because he needs more kill power? I find that unlikely after 3.0's changes.

The nerf to the already-difficult-to-sweetspot-fair is noticeable in 3.02, and I've had to focus on uair strings and hoping my opponent doesn't realize how easy it is to bat Sonic's nair away. S'good moves, but he still fails on having any type of move that forces an opponent to respect Sonic. He can still be dismantled completely by a patient swordsman or a competent rushdown character.

Because he can't edgeguard? Again, I'm skeptical of such a claim. I've seen sentiment that he has trouble zoning against hitboxes (and received a decent amount of playtesting feedback to that effect), but the move already has strong disjoint and enough punch to be threatening in neutral.

See: Crouchcancelling your face off. Also the only solid disjoint I've seen is the start of the move - you can effectively edgeguard Falco and Fox only at the point where Sonic's feet are not sticking out. Otherwise it's an ineffective and losing trade. So Sonic cannot decently poke as intended.

Making it stupid powerful isn't going to change its utility - just make the reward disproportionate to the effort expenditure.

Then I suppose we're all for changing Fox's USmash to have knockback similar to Falco's, then? Obviously that won't change the utility. We can both play this game and we'll both be wrong in the end should we continue to make this argument. A stronger move makes all the difference in utility. It changes how a Sonic approaches the edgeguard. It changes when he'll go in an ftilt or a grab depending on character, percentages. Stage archetecture can decide when we use ftilt even. Running off and attempting a sweetspot nair vs betting that trading the ftilt is the better option to secure the stock. It changes the utility at its core.

Sonic already takes risks with a great many of his moves - they're ironically rather slow, especially the grounded moves. Sonic's throwing his hurtbox out there with every move and can often end up in a clash and subsequently will fail a jab trade with his slower arsenal. They're good moves, solid, balanced moves, except for the risk factor on ftilt. When it had power it could win a game on a successful read or a sloppy recovery. I use it only for specific matchups against specific moves, like Luigi or Squirtle, who cannot readily defend themselves in their shield.

This is one of those situations where I can only surmise that the call to return to 2.5 forward tilt is more out of disappointment over what was lost, rather than an honest appraisal of what would be best.

The 2.5 ftilt was a godly move, granted, but I argue that there is a middle ground here that would be better for the character in general. It has no place being as strong as it was, but the weak move it is now serves to be very situational for a character you want to stay grounded in his playstyle.

Now don't get me wrong - Sonic is fairly well designed, and I am happier with him than I've been in the past– of that you can be sure. I respect a great deal of what you guys have done and continue to do. However I also respectfully disagree that you've settled on the best possible aspects of the character. There is still some work to be done here.

 

[cmart]

Sonic's forward tilt still doesn't have feet hurtboxes, nor was the range altered in any way. You can still stuff the same exact things with it you always could. I should really just post a hitbox pic so you could see for yourself.

As for the rest of it, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on design principals. I think it's pretty clear where I already stand re: Sonic's forward tilt in relation to his kit and the rest of the cast. And the unquestionably toxic comment was in relation to 2.5 Sonic in general - and if you want to argue that build wasn't toxic I don't know what to say.

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic's not well designed.

 

[Solharath]

I don't particularly appreciate the ad hominem that you're going for here in stating that I might be arguing that 2.5 Sonic wasn't toxic. I actually ended up removing the caveat explaining that 2.5 Sonic was toxic for its entirety as it detracted from the point I was trying the make – that overall Sonic lacks the tools in his kit to stand up to big threats, and what Sonic was has very little bearing on what Sonic is now. 2.5 Sonic was toxic as a whole - he just had too many good options, mostly stemming from everything he could do with his DownB, followed closely by his endless recovery, on top of a solid tilt game. There just wasn't a single bad point to him. It wasn't so much as his many one things, it was his everything at once. But that has been discussed to death.

Sonic's forward tilt still doesn't have feet hurtboxes, nor was the range altered in any way. You can still stuff the same exact things with it you always could. I should really just post a hitbox pic so you could see for yourself.

Please do then consequently explain why Sonic's ftilt stuffs recoveries like Marth/Roy/Falco/Fox at close range and trades at the most extended range. This isn't something I've tested in the lab, no, because the results were readily available to me already. It simply happens when I play, so there is absolutely no way you can so easily convince me that they do not have a hurt box. Sorcery aside, if you believe there isn't a hurtbox, and yet I continually see that Sonic ends up in a trade at ftilt's maximum range, it raises questions on what could be an oversight.

Everything is still packed up from APEX, but I'll look into it as best I can later. I am certain there is a hurtbox on Sonic's ftilt from all the times I've been burned on it. Literally, seeing as I tend to eat Fox/Falco's upB the most from it.

As far as his kit is concerned though, even the much touted "SideB Spacie Gimp" doesn't work on any Spacie player worth their salt - I can't count the times I've been CC>Shine in the middle of the move by the old Melee guard. Not to mention Fox's starting hitbox on UpB blocks HA/BA.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

The only problem I see with F-tilt is the endlag thats about it.

 

[cmart]

The first three active frames. The last two are not notably different than the third so I didn't bother uploading them. Note that there is no hurtbox at all past the white stripe on sonic's shoe - that's about the same disjoint as puff's bair. The only explanation I have for why you can't stuff recoveries is that you aren't spacing the move properly. As for why you can stuff things up close - the answer is easy and you're right it WAS an oversight. The move is active one frame too soon, allowing it to hit before Sonic extends his legs.

 

[DireDrop]

I don't understand the icons in these images. Are the yellow circles hurt boxes, the orange starred circles hurt and hit boxes, and the circle with a strip only a hitbox?

 

[Nazo]

The yellow circles are the hurtboxes. The orange circles with stars are the hitboxes. The orange circle with a line in it is also a hitbox but with a set trajectory. If you look closely you'll see the yellow hurtboxes hidden underneath the orange hitboxes, which extend all the way to sonic's white strip on his shoe.

 

[Kally Wally]

The orange circles with stars are the hitboxes. The orange circle with a line in it is also a hitbox but with a set trajectory.

So... What kind of trajectory to the stars indicate? I've always wondered.

 

[Nazo]

So... What kind of trajectory to the stars indicate? I've always wondered.

The star hitboxes don't really have a set trajectory, they're just open hitboxes which means the direction your opponent gets sent flying is heavily relied on by their DI.

 

[Kally Wally]

... Everything I knew about Smash theory is wrong, apparently. I thought all attacks had to have an angle? What happens if there's no DI involved?

 

[SpiderMad]

They're Sakurai angles, there's some post about them somewhere I wish I remembered

 

[cmart]

Sakurai angle is dynamic, but fairly predictable. It scales from 0->44.xx (in Melee and PM at least) based on the kb of the attack. This scaling occurs fairly quickly in the curve and only really effects low kb moves like jabs and projectiles. The sakurai angle is pretty much the smash default and used in a LOT of attacks. As an aside, the single non-sakurai hitbox angle in those pics is 40, so slightly lower than the default.

 

[Sharkz]

I know very very little about Sonic and what he can do so sorry if this is redundant information, but I found a small little tidbit tonight while messing around in practice mode.
I was playing with Sonic's taunt cancels and realized that if you time it right, you can dash>taunt cancel at edge>immediate f-tilt. It isn't too hard to do with Sonic and he's probably the only character that could get anything at all out of this (if he even could). It takes a minute of practice to get it, but it isn't too tough.
I know you could dash cancel into fsmash, but Sonic's ftilt seems to have a larger range comparatively. And I don't even know if you can tilt out of dash cancel, but I sure can't get it to work. It seems like it could work pretty well against unsuspecting, recovering targets.
Once again, sorry if this is already known, but I felt like I should post it anyway.

 

[Solharath]

This is an amusing picture 'cause I spent like most of my last tournament trying to replicate my usual results, and I've found... nothing really conclusive. All I know is that at max range I was trading with Luigi's Nair and Fox's UpB.... although with Fox's UpB it was a *sometimes* thing. When I beat it out, Fox was running into the move while it was already out for a few frames. Trying to collide with it at max range tended to trade, if memory serves. My matches vs. Ginger at Lake Effect 2 (Winner's R3/Semis) should have a couple of these instances.

Eh, I dunno. Looking at the video footage doesn't seem to change the opinion that something just seems up with this move. I know BrawlBox isn't perfect, but I'd still be surprised if this picture wasn't gospel truth.

Also can I add just how adorable it is to see the hurtboxes on Sonic's arms and hands. That's just cute.

 

[adlp]

The yellow circles are the hurtboxes. The orange circles with stars are the hitboxes. The orange circle with a line in it is also a hitbox but with a set trajectory. If you look closely you'll see the yellow hurtboxes hidden underneath the orange hitboxes, which extend all the way to sonic's white strip on his shoe.

id like to point out that they are circles not boxes

hitcircles

hurtcircles

popcircles

 

[Espy Rose]

Semantics are for the birds.

 

[adlp]

AND HEDGEHOGS

 

[TwicH]

I'm a bit curious right now. Would you guys agree with me if I said that Sonic has the best mobility in P:M or are there better characters?

 

[GabPR]

I'm a bit curious right now. Would you guys agree with me if I said that Sonic has the best mobility in P:M or are there better characters?

SANIC DA BESS

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

I'm a bit curious right now. Would you guys agree with me if I said that Sonic has the best mobility in P:M or are there better characters?

Wrell, he IS the fastest thing alive!

 

[Solharath]

Eh, his lack of fastfall speed is a bit of a hamper, I'd still say Falcon has better mobility overall. But yes, you could make that argument. His ability to switch direction in midair is a big boon, but he's committed 100% to a single direction change, where Wario and Jiggs can weave like nothing, and Lucas can do all those downB strats and the like, and then there's Squirtle who's slippyness allows him to slide across the stage, charging any smash he cares to.

There's a lot of mobility to be had in this game, but I suppose at the most basic level, Sonic does do pretty well for himself.

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic's fast fall issues are pretty null and void with proper dair usage.

 

[Solharath]

So here's some Side-B shenanigans that'll help improve your game if you're looking to have some new tech-skill related stuff to add to your lives.

Aerial Side-B comes in 2 main forms: true aerial, as in started in the air, of a short little hop from the ground if you decide to hold the button down. Here is a trick that actually works for both versions of the move, but has different uses.

First of all, proper Aerial Side B. We all know if you hop and carry any vertical momentum, Sonic will do a small hop Side B. That has no technical bearing but it's worth being said. If you Side-B in any direction and immediately hold back, Sonic will uncurl faster. This allows Sonic to operate out of SideB a lot faster without wasting a double jump, or if you managed to use it while already having consumed a double jump. You have to be careful with this because if you can easily send yourself the opposite direction if you switch directions too quickly.

The grounded-hop Side-B is pretty much the same, however being so close to the ground, if you press back quick enough(Within a frame after the Side-B has a guaranteed direction), Sonic will land on the stage without rolling. This allows for any on-hit followups you please, this allows greater control over Sonic, without resorting to a 10-frame wavedash or JC-Option.

 

[Espy Rose]

Won another P:M tournament down here. Videos should be uploaded sometime within the next week.

 

[Blank Mauser]

How do side-B ledgehog consistently? I feel like I must be doing something wrong because its a lot harder for me to do it when I'm really close to the ledge, but its fine at certain distances.

 

[Solharath]

How do side-B ledgehog consistently? I feel like I must be doing something wrong because its a lot harder for me to do it when I'm really close to the ledge, but its fine at certain distances.

Hold the button down. If you're really close and you just tap it it doesn't seem to like to grab the edge.