Sonic Chat Room

[The Halloween Captain]

My argument on Sonic being top tier is that he isn't slowed down by his flaws like other characters so he should be high tier.

What doies that even mean? Sonic has lots of flaws that hinder him! You're thinking of Meta Knight!

 

[ElemMasterZeph92]

Most of Sonic's moves have lag but so do other characters, the thing is to not worry about it but how to use to your advantage.

Sonic's flaws add to his mind game tactics(that aren't used much).

 

[Blackbelt]

Mkay Blackbelt, the pics aren't going to make him any more knowledgeable. I think Green has the right approach here.

EMZ, I guess I lied about what I said and not posting to you...but now explain how Sonic isn't "slowed down by his flaws like other characters".

Alright, alright, I'll stop.


But the pics do portray what i think about his theorycraft.

 

[Tenki]

http://www.revver.com/video/1116335/wtfp-episode-26/
ohhemgee.
3:00 there's this scared girl being attacked by the SBR
and then Chis comes to the rescue.

My argument on Sonic being top tier is that he isn't slowed down by his flaws like other characters so he should be high tier.

Well you must not know Sonic that well if you think otherwise.

Did you read that thread I linked you to?

 

[Greenstreet]

My argument on Sonic being top tier is that he isn't slowed down by his flaws like other characters so he should be high tier.

Well you must not know Sonic that well if you think otherwise.

Worst. Argument. Ever. Why isn't he slowed down lol? Your not actually saying anything. Your just generalising. Did you read the link Tenki gave you.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196545

There it is again. Read it now. Done?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196545

Read it again.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196545

Now explain to me in detail why Sonic should be high tier. You aren't convincing me.
Why isnt he slowed down? What makes him High Tier material?
So far you've given theory...and no proof.

Most of Sonic's moves have lag but so do other characters, the thing is to not worry about it but how to use to your advantage.

Yer... tell us how u wud use lag to ur advantage..

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Most of Sonic's moves have lag but so do other characters, the thing is to not worry about it but how to use to your advantage.

You can never use your own lag to your advantage, only the lag of other characters. Your lag keeps you from attacking as early as you would want to, or keeps your attack going longer than you want it to. Most of the best character's DON'T have significant lag on their best moves, such as MK D-smash, Snake F-Tilt, GW's Turtle, D3's chain grabs, Marth's everything...

EDIT: Actually, I really did not do these characters justice. They ALL have a lot of fast attacks (except maybe D3).

 

[ElemMasterZeph92]

If lag is your excuse then there is no argument.

Wow, characters like MK can do damage but so can Sonic because his speed is his power, although speed alone isn't enough though

 

[Blackbelt]

If lag is your excuse then there is no argument.

Greenstreet, can i post another pic? I think he's gone into the realm of beyond help.

 

[Tenki]

If lag is your excuse then there is no argument.

no.


Sonic Sucks
omggmgg but u mainz sonic!!? u maed me disbeliv in tierz wen i plaed u!

I'm going to quote/re-fix something I put elsewhere.

Sonic:
+ can attack/airdodge/fsj out of up-B
+ invincibility frames on side-B (hop) release
+ side-B, aerial down-B are cancellable into shield
+ Fast run (full length of FD in a little over 1 second?!) for baiting, punishing, and avoiding attacks.
+ Good grab game (pummels, 'chase' throws, etc)
+ Comboability out of spindash and/or springs.
+ One of the most versatile foxtrots in game
+ Can attain temporary 'run speed' in the air via spinshot.
- Kill moves have generally low knockback and speed
- Low aerial acceleration (doesn't change directions easily)
- Low range on many moves (N-air, Jab, F-air, Spindashes)
- Spindash can be outprioritized or grabbed out of, due to its low range.
- Homing Attack has punishable ending lag and an exploitable trajectory.
- If spaced incorrectly, it's possible to get grabbed out of spring.
- Most moves are multi-hit with low damages per hit (easy to outprioritize)

I bolded things that affect or are put into use in most Sonic mains' gameplay. I highlighted what are, IMO, the major affecting factors of Sonic's gameplay.

I then proceeded to strike out things that factor more into mindgames/player ability.

Red text is stuff that we bring up often to support Sonic gameplay, but are written off.

now, the list, without all the crossouts.

Sonic:
+ can attack/airdodge/fsj out of up-B
+ invincibility frames on side-B (hop) release
+ Good grab game (pummels, 'chase' throws, etc)
+ Comboability out of spindash and/or springs.
- Kill moves have generally low knockback and speed
- Low aerial acceleration (doesn't change directions easily)
- Low range on many moves (N-air, Jab, F-air, Spindashes)
- Spindash can be outprioritized or grabbed out of, due to its low range.
- Homing Attack has punishable ending lag and an exploitable trajectory.
- If spaced incorrectly, it's possible to get grabbed out of spring.
- Most moves are multi-hit with low damages per hit (easy to outprioritize)

Don't get me wrong, Sonic has tools a good player can have a field day with, but the problem is that most of his 'objective' character traits... aren't good.

In matchup discussions, bait+punish don't count. Avoiding projectiles... apparently doesn't count either. Doesn't it seem unfair? Doesn't it make you want to go superfanboy lvl3 and sonic pawnch someone?

Too bad. You can't change matchups or tier lists with that. Accept it. Spread it.

 

[Camalange]

If lag is your excuse then there is no argument.

................................................



And with that, I finally lost all hope.

G'night everybody.

Oh, and I'm assuming he hasn't read Tenki's thread yet.

EDIT: Oh look, Tenki even posted it here, now you have no excuse not to read it.

 

[Greenstreet]

Its just one part of why Sonic is poo. It gives other chars too much of an opportunity to punish. What else makes Sonic high tier.

Using lag to your advantage = disproven....it cant be done. Your only gonna get punished. And there's nothing u can do with lag that u cant do without lol.

Ok well unfortunately this new guy is possibly beyond help. Play the game. Vs one of us. And then see that we probly kno what we are talking about more than you. You have wifi?

Do you enter tourneys?
Do you play anyone well known on these boards?
Got any videos of your Sonic?
Coz if you answer no to all these questions, I am not going to listen to a word you say. You are probly just a kid, much like SonicX580 who has come onto here thinking he knows it all when in reality you are yet to face the real wrath of a GOOD smash player. So until you do, I don't wanna hear you commenting on Sonic and I certainly dont want you claiming he is high tier/ good at every matchup/ speed is his power....

 

[thecatinthehat]

Check out this thread. Just for him

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204673

 

[ElemMasterZeph92]

Lag isn't the issue it's the issue of people accepting others thoughts on his use without even determining this fact for themselves. Tell me Mr. Debater have you even played as Sonic?

 

[Blackbelt]

Lag isn't the issue it's the issue of people accepting others thoughts on his use without even determining this fact for themselves. Tell me Mr. Debater have you even played as Sonic?

What the **** does that even mean?

That's not data, that's not experience, that's just a bunch of buzz words strung together.

 

[Greenstreet]

Lol Thankyou Blackbelt.

What facts am I supposed to be determining? Using lag to my advantage? Listen to yourself. LAG CANNOT BE USED TO AN ADVANTAGE ROFL! Lag is a state where you can't put any input, meaning you cant move, attack, dodge whatever. So how do you plan on using this to your advantage?

I'm a Sonic main.... lol.

I am asking you to tell me why he is high tier, and u arent telling me.

Listen to the following:

Sonic is Low Tier. Although his superior run speed enable him to punish mistake fairly effectively, he cannot actively play offensively due to his lack of priority on the majority of his moves. His kill moves also pose a problem as they have significant lag on startup and even still, do not have the sheer knockback to compensate for that. Sonic has a terrific recovery. Sonic has a high aerial top speed, but this is brought to nothing as he has very poor aerial acceleration, which means he cannot change direction in the air quickly. This causes a level of commitment with non-beneficial attacks to occur, unless a retreat though a dodge is possible. Sonics only has two or three reliable kill moves, which are reduced significantly when spammed too much.

His roll is grabable and stopped easily by many characters tilts and projectiles also. This is the last I will say on this topic mainly because.

1. You are so grossly misinformed no amount of basic conversation, intelligent or not would be able to sway you.
2. You are not mature enough to take other peoples (especially those with a large wealth of knowledge such as Tenki) thoughts and consider them. Your pigheadedness will always cause your own opinions, however misguided they may be, to take priority over those of others.
3. Until I see your Sonic in action, I have no reason to believe that you have any skill at Sonic/Brawl/Video Games/Anything else remotely related to the following areas.
4. Along side your giant collection of misinformation you also have a knack of arguing a point without providing any tangible evidence. Your arguments so far have been theorycrafting and in reality, nothing useful has even been said. On the basis of your communication skills, I have been led to believe that you are either not very old or just not very mature in your thoughts. And although young people can be great gamers and great posters, you seem to be neither.

 

[aeghrur]

OMG I come on, come in this thread hoping to see some joke flames, BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. It's CiTH&Boxob going at Chis, then Boxob gets banned, and EMZ acts totally clueless. Not to mention, the mods are about to slice our throats here. WHAT HAS THE SONIC BOARD BECOME? T_T
God, and it was just getting good again.
Anyways, what'd you guys say about me CiTH and Boxob? lol.
I'm willing to listen.
EMZ, listen to them, your theories are flawed, ignorant, and naive. It doesn't work.

 

[Kinzer]

Oh my God, I'm probably going to be infracted for making this one post I'm almost sure, but I have to say it.

This thread did not need the pin, we bump this trhead so @#$%ing much anyway.

Scrubs keep coming here and posting a bunch of BS.

Boxob got banned...AGAIN!

The Ike boards are dealing with other people underestimating him, the Sonic boards are having complicatinos with people overestimating him.

This forum itself has become so depressing recently.

Wi-Fi is being Wi-Fi.

Good grief, there is no perfect board but which one comes close? I'm losing hope, and I'm probably going to be the next Memphis/Umby.

I'm going to check out the other threads here.

Fuck!

 

[ElemMasterZeph92]

People say that his flaws on lag as well on regular gameplay makes him too vulnerable to other characters, its the same for other characters so why does it matter? Anyone could be best player in the world if they had just tried but no one has the mindset for it. In reality Sonic has no flaws its just that people assume that they can't win which leads to their downfall, its the people's fault not Sonic's.

 

[Blackbelt]

People say that his flaws on lag as well on regular gameplay makes him too vulnerable to other characters, its the same for other characters so why does it matter? Anyone could be best player in the world if they had just tried but no one has the mindset for it. In reality Sonic has no flaws its just that people assume that they can't win which leads to their downfall, its the people's fault not Sonic's.

.....Screw it.

You're wrong. We have oput much research into this, and because we put so much research was put into Sonic, we know that he has limitations, especially when compared to others.



And many characters have less lag than Sonic, so that argument fails.

 

[aeghrur]

People say that his flaws on lag as well on regular gameplay makes him too vulnerable to other characters, its the same for other characters so why does it matter? Anyone could be best player in the world if they had just tried but no one has the mindset for it. In reality Sonic has no flaws its just that people assume that they can't win which leads to their downfall, its the people's fault not Sonic's.

No, he has flaws okay?
Look, bad start up lag.
You wanna know how fast his jab(his fastest move) comes out? 3 frames, AND IT HAS TERRIBLE REACH.
You wanna know how fast Metaknight's D-smash comes out? 5 FRAMES, AND IT'S EFFING AMAZING.
You wanna know how fast Marth's Up-B is? ONE FRAME START UP, THAT'S RIGHT.

oh, and ending lag, god the ending lag. Jump->Down air, it's laggy as hell.
Jump and wait, then Forward air near the ground, you see sonic splashing like a fish, you know how punishable that is?
Try tilting the control stick up and press a, look at the ending lag, IT SUCKS.

Yeah, so don't give us that perfect crap in here. He's not perfect, he's not even mid-tier. The character sonic sucks.

 

[ElemMasterZeph92]

My point is to find a way over his flaws like MK players did for him to make him top tier. Any character can get the this title but its the lack of people believing that their laggy character can do this.

 

[aeghrur]

That's player skill, not character analysis. It does not calculate into the character itself. Who cares if the best player in the world plays sonic? He would still suck as a character.

 

[Blackbelt]

My point is to find a way over his flaws like MK players did for him to make him top tier. Any character can get the this title but its the lack of people believing that their laggy character can do this.

Metaknight didn;'t get where he is because of the players.


He got there because he's just better than everyone else.


The fact you think Sonic can rise to that level is sad, and I honestly wish he could, but I actually know what reality is, and how to accept it.



Get with the program, kid.

 

[Kinzer]

Your logic is flawed...if you actually could get and did do Frame Data on like say Sonic Vs. MK, you would know that MK has less "dead time" than Sonic.

Now GTFOOMSB.

 

[Greenstreet]

Lol Thankyou Blackbelt.

What facts am I supposed to be determining? Using lag to my advantage? Listen to yourself. LAG CANNOT BE USED TO AN ADVANTAGE ROFL! Lag is a state where you can't put any input, meaning you cant move, attack, dodge whatever. So how do you plan on using this to your advantage?

I'm a Sonic main.... lol.

I am asking you to tell me why he is high tier, and u arent telling me.

Listen to the following:

Sonic is Low Tier. Although his superior run speed enable him to punish mistake fairly effectively, he cannot actively play offensively due to his lack of priority on the majority of his moves. His kill moves also pose a problem as they have significant lag on startup and even still, do not have the sheer knockback to compensate for that. Sonic has a terrific recovery. Sonic has a high aerial top speed, but this is brought to nothing as he has very poor aerial acceleration, which means he cannot change direction in the air quickly. This causes a level of commitment with non-beneficial attacks to occur, unless a retreat though a dodge is possible. Sonics only has two or three reliable kill moves, which are reduced significantly when spammed too much.

His roll is grabable and stopped easily by many characters tilts and projectiles also. This is the last I will say on this topic mainly because.

1. You are so grossly misinformed no amount of basic conversation, intelligent or not would be able to sway you.
2. You are not mature enough to take other peoples (especially those with a large wealth of knowledge such as Tenki) thoughts and consider them. Your pigheadedness will always cause your own opinions, however misguided they may be, to take priority over those of others.
3. Until I see your Sonic in action, I have no reason to believe that you have any skill at Sonic/Brawl/Video Games/Anything else remotely related to the following areas.
4. Along side your giant collection of misinformation you also have a knack of arguing a point without providing any tangible evidence. Your arguments so far have been theorycrafting and in reality, nothing useful has even been said. On the basis of your communication skills, I have been led to believe that you are either not very old or just not very mature in your thoughts. And although young people can be great gamers and great posters, you seem to be neither.

People say that his flaws on lag as well on regular gameplay makes him too vulnerable to other characters, its the same for other characters so why does it matter? Anyone could be best player in the world if they had just tried but no one has the mindset for it. In reality Sonic has no flaws its just that people assume that they can't win which leads to their downfall, its the people's fault not Sonic's.

My point is to find a way over his flaws like MK players did for him to make him top tier. Any character can get the this title but its the lack of people believing that their laggy character can do this.

MK users needn't overcome flaws. Because MK doesn't have any. Do you think it's just coincidence that in the Tournament Rankings list that MK is over a thousand points above the next character?

Not every character can be the best. The game creators are not tha good that they can make every character equal.
Also if you believe anyone can beat the best player in the world, why don't you do it? Where are you from.. I'll personally go find the good players in your region and set up a match.

In reality Sonic has no flaws its just that people assume that they can't win which leads to their downfall, its the people's fault not Sonic's.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard on these boards man. Ofcourse mentality is important, but Sonic has flaws.

His moves do not extend as far outside of his hurtbox as other characters. What this means is that he will more likely be hit by another move then his moves win out. Most of his moves are like this. Also after pressing in a command on your controller, there is a thing called startup lag, which means that this amount of lag will occur before the hit takes place.
Take flacon ounch, it takes forvere to come out. Do you think I could be the best player in the world only using this move? No..I couldn't. Because inrea lity, the faster your attacks come out, the better chance you have of damaging your opponent before they damage you. Sonics do not come out very fast at all. This is a flaw.

Consider two identsonl players. One using MK and the other using Sonic.

The both end up nextt to each other at 100% damage, they both want to kill each other. They both use their best kill move. Sonic uses fsmash, MK uses dsmash. Sonics fsmash is considerably slower (coming out many frames later) than MK's. MK's smash hits, Sonic dies. Did MK win because of his mind set lol?

 

[ElemMasterZeph92]

You really believe that? The player controls the character, so if the player isn't good then that affects the character. I don't have a reason why he deserves to be high tier but I'm saying that he can do it but it takes the right person to help him achieve this goal.

 

[Tenki]

People say that his flaws on lag as well on regular gameplay makes him too vulnerable to other characters, its the same for other characters so why does it matter? Anyone could be best player in the world if they had just tried but no one has the mindset for it. In reality Sonic has no flaws its just that people assume that they can't win which leads to their downfall, its the people's fault not Sonic's.

short hop, do a delayed F-air.
Landing lag. Baw.

shorthop, do a delayed U-air.
Landing lag. Baw.

Do a F-smash.
Startup lag. Baw.

Do a F-tilt.
Ending lag.

BUT, MOVE LAG IS NOT THE PROBLEM!

PRIORITY is the problem.

He doesn't have alot of aerial reach nor fast aerial manueverability (so he can't weave in and out in the air like he can on the ground, which is why he can get around priority issues on the ground with things like baits and shield counterattacks). That said, his aerial vs aerial game is generally subpar.

Combine that with the landing lag on most of his aerials, he can't generally flow from air game to ground game, where his strength lies. He has to flow from ground to air, and basically, as soon as your opponent is high in the air, it's "reset" and you have to try to 'start over' to keep your momentum.

That's why aerial characters tend to have better matchups against Sonic. Sonic's grounded speed to get around priority issues doesn't really mean anything for him because he has trouble breaking alot of characters' aerials.

 

[Blackbelt]

You really believe that? The player controls the character, so if the player isn't good then that affects the character. I don't have a reason why he deserves to be high tier but I'm saying that he can do it but it takes the right person to help him achieve this goal.

Just when I think you can't get any stupider, you make another post.

 

[Camalange]

Guys stop trying.
I've been trying to convince myself to go to sleep, but I can't because of this crap.
Just ignore EMZ, don't post to him, don't answer him...nothing.
We've tried for like...10 pages of posts to make him a smarter player and it's not working, and now I'm convinced it never will work untill he gets his *** handed to him by a decent MK. Then MAYBE, just MAYBE, he'll get some common sense and can become a not completely hated member of the community.

Now good night, I think.

 

[Blackbelt]

Camalange is right. Now for another topic of discussion.


Who here has played a Phoenix Wright videogame?

 

[DDM]

*skipping two pages worth of material to post the following*

He is slowed down by lack of KO power. He telegraphs f-smash and d-smash, and the juggle-roof KO, and the ledgeguard b-air KO are difficult to land on experienced players. And independently of people saying that he's a middleweight, I submit that he gets launched just as much as the likes of Kirby, Jiggly, and Metaknight.

Regardless, Sonic CAN be good. It just requires overcoming a lot more than Metaknight / Snake players have to.

 

[ElemMasterZeph92]

Every character has flaws, I mean MK all of his specials leave him vulnerable and his Fsmash has lag. His only advantage is the amount of his attacks.

 

[Tenki]

Every character has flaws, I mean MK all of his specials leave him vulnerable and his Fsmash has lag. His only advantage is the amount of his attacks.

Sonic is more vulnerable after an F-smash than MK is generally after his specials.

Unless you play against stupid MK's that like to rise really high when they end their specials for some reason.

MK's F-smash has startup lag, but very little ending lag. It's usually used as a bait so you run into another attack, or some kind of edgeguard punishment.

and MK's advantages lie in his priority and 'seamless' transition from air to ground game, quick kill moves, as well as his long reach with his aerials.

But it doesn't matter because you seem to not read any of my posts.

gtfo

 

[Greenstreet]

Tier listings are not based off player skills, they are based off character attributes. Sonic cannot be high tier.

Yes an AWESOME PERFECT PLAYER who was absolutely perfect in everyway could beat anyone with Sonic. But that is not how tier lists are formed.

 

[Kinzer]

No really, now you're just pissing off Tenki, get your shit out of here before you make yourself look even more ******** if that's even possible.

Even we aren't usually this bad towards scrub scrub scrubs, but dear God man.

 

[Greenstreet]

MK's specials do not leave him vulnerable. How could they? The last hit of his nado hits them far enuff way. His drill rush has a stupid auto retreat at the end lol and his shuttle loop can be attack out of the glide afterwards. And no1 uses his down b lol.

Please get out of the boards, I am usually friendly to n00bs, but you are a new level.

I am now coining a new phrase. To go EMZ on someone is to lunge straight into an argument with full confidence, but without any tangible evidence or skill or knowledge or any requirement to back it up.

Word: EMZ (ee-em-zee)

Definition: To lunge straight into an intellectual argument with very little or no knowledge of the subject area. It is often done against people who actually do know what they are talking about. But to a person conducting the EMZ, this matters not, as despite their lack of knowledge, they are obviously right. The EMZ argument tactics include: use of buzz words and arguments that are fanciful at best as well as stating things that are plainly false. EMZ are often found to be frustrating and annoying and should be dealt with quickly. The problem with this is that when an EMZ is occuring, the users pigheadedness with often cause them to battle relentlessly despite being wrong. Similar to trolls, its probably best to ignore them.

 

[ElemMasterZeph92]

Attributes don't determine anything and they do come from player skills as it is an analysis of that character. I believe that Sonic can be high tier and I won't believe otherwise. Everyone no everything has limitations what matters is how we overcome them. I know that I can't debate about anything but the fact is that you try because giving up won't change anything.

 

[Blackbelt]

Attributes don't determine anything and they do come from player skills as it is an analysis of that character. I believe that Sonic can be high tier and I won't believe otherwise. Everyone no everything has limitations what matters is how we overcome them. I know that I can't debate about anything but the fact is that you try because giving up won't change anything.

You're an idiot, your arguments suck, and speaking to you is affecting my IQ.



Leave. Now.

 

[Tenki]

MK's specials do not leave him vulnerable. How could they? The last hit of his nado hits them far enuff way. His drill rush has a stupid auto retreat at the end lol and his shuttle loop can be attack out of the glide afterwards. And no1 uses his down b lol.

Please get out of the boards, I am usually friendly to n00bs, but you are a new level.

I am now coining a new phrase. To go EMZ on someone is to lunge straight into an argument with full confidence, but without any tangible evidence or skill or knowledge or any requirement to back it up.

Green, just repeat my arguments. He reads your posts. lol.

just FYI, what he's talking about is how MK's aerials all have that stupid fall state after you use them.

Yeah. Because MK's just spam the B button and rise half way up the screen, and never glide attack to get rid of landing lag.

MK's side-B is punishable, and down-B can be short-stalled via IDC to give you a short extension/movement that's kinda easy to mask lol.


forget it.

just don't reply to him and let him fester.

 

[aeghrur]

Arg, PLAYER SKILL IS PLAYER SKILL. CHARACTER IS CHARACTER. No mixing. >_<
GOD. Tenki has stated that like, 34782935792834^231 times in character match up threads.