Sonic: Better with Custom Moves or not?

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

overall i wouldn't say sonic becomes better with customs, just he becomes different. His customs for the most part allow him to cover a different option in some way but they also come with drawbacks so it really comes down to personal preference.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

We've theorycrafted this so many times... lmao

Sonic's spring start-up invincibility actually goes right through bowling balls.

A) I have very little trust in others lol
B) I don't like reading the sonic boards despite being the best sonic in AZ, because you guys use wayyyyyyy too many acronyms and weird terms. I'm the guy who goes to Starbucks and orders a medium.
C) Recovering from low very vulnerable to balls. I still can't spinshot reliably because the timing is so damn strict.

 

[Camalange]

A) I have very little trust in others lol
B) I don't like reading the sonic boards despite being the best sonic in AZ, because you guys use wayyyyyyy too many acronyms and weird terms. I'm the guy who goes to Starbucks and orders a medium.

Everyone who plays Sonic claims to be the best Sonic in their region, lol.

I guess that can be said with like, every Smash player though.

I don't even drink coffee.

C) Recovering from low very vulnerable to balls.

I pulled this off multiple times against Zee (unfortunately not on YouTube yet).

It can literally pass right through with no downsides if you do it right.

I'm sure if it becomes a habit that you recover low, they can adjust the timing and put you in a bad spot, but it's certainly easier to condition them than it is you in that situation, imo. Most Villagers just sort of try to play God and pre-emptively charge it. Sonic isn't afraid.

I still can't spinshot reliably because the timing is so damn strict.

It's not that strict, really. Especially in comparison to say, ISDJ (Instant Spin Dash Jump).

Coincidentally, I just so happened to release a video breaking down Spinshot right here.

I'd expect more from the best Sonic in AZ

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Everyone who plays Sonic claims to be the best Sonic in their region, lol.

I guess that can be said with like, every Smash player though.

I don't even drink coffee.

I pulled this off multiple times against Zee (unfortunately not on YouTube yet).

It can literally pass right through with no downsides if you do it right.

I'm sure if it becomes a habit that you recover low, they can adjust the timing and put you in a bad spot, but it's certainly easier to condition them than it is you in that situation, imo. Most Villagers just sort of try to play God and pre-emptively charge it. Sonic isn't afraid.

It's not that strict, really. Especially in comparison to say, ISDJ (Instant Spin Dash Jump).

Coincidentally, I just so happened to release a video breaking down Spinshot right here.

I'd expect more from the best Sonic in AZ

We are making the power rankings for Arizona now, and I'm definitely within top 8; placing within there is up in the air right now. Im a Snake player. I didn't touch Sonic in Brawl, so I don't move like a Sonic player yet. The best player in our region plays Villager.

I'm not sure what you gain from trying to put me down but I'm far from bad at the game or naive. In fact you merely reinforce why I don't like the Sonic boards.

 

[Camalange]

We are making the power rankings for Arizona now, and I'm definitely within top 8; placing within there is up in the air right now. Im a Snake player. I didn't touch Sonic in Brawl, so I don't move like a Sonic player yet. The best player in our region plays Villager.

I'm not sure what you gain from trying to put me down but I'm far from bad at the game or naive. In fact you merely reinforce why I don't like the Sonic boards.

The way I see it, there's no reason for you to start things off by casually saying you don't read the boards and drop that you're the best in your region as if that gives you some kind of hall pass on the matter.

Anyway, I know your work on the boards and have respect for you which is all the more frustrating when I see things repeated that we've discussed before just to be told you don't trust our ways or even read them. It's a two way street. The ball busting is in jest.

I genuinely hope you take the time to maybe learn something new from here, or share something beyond what's known for our customs as I'm not really one to experiment too deeply with them. If my Spinshot video doesn't actually help you, so be it, but I think you'll find that with practice it's not more difficult than say, doing Snake's DACUS in Brawl.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

The way I see it, there's no reason for you to start things off by casually saying you don't read the boards and drop that you're the best in your region as if that gives you some kind of hall pass on the matter.

Anyway, I know your work on the boards and have respect for you which is all the more frustrating when I see things repeated that we've discussed before just to be told you don't trust our ways or even read them. It's a two way street. The ball busting is in jest.

I genuinely hope you take the time to maybe learn something new from here, or share something beyond what's known for our customs as I'm not really one to experiment too deeply with them. If my Spinshot video doesn't actually help you, so be it, but I think you'll find that with practice it's not more difficult than say, doing Snake's DACUS in Brawl.

The only reason I dropped my ranking is because the sonic boards have a unique problem of an inclusionistic community that is very difficult for outsiders to get into. The reason I mention my ranking is because we don't need to be part of the community or use these terms to be a solid Sonic player.

The reason I said I don't trust other people is because it was only mentioned "oh it doesn't work" but nobody specifically said why. I don't trust things without explanations. Not passing the damage threshold required for popping a balloon is a reason. If someone said that I wouldn't have mentioned a thing or bothered testing it myself.

I want nothing more than to participate, learn from, and be part of the Sonic community. I like Smashboards a lot. I just don't want to climb this mountain of terms and (perceived if not intended) haughtiness.

 

[Camalange]

The only reason I dropped my ranking is because the sonic boards have a unique problem of an inclusionistic community that is very difficult for outsiders to get into. The reason I mention my ranking is because we don't need to be part of the community or use these terms to be a solid Sonic player.

This is true, but there is method to our madness.

When a character has two spin moves that have ever changing states and properties, it's difficult to explain it without creating a glossary outside of "sometimes when sonic turns into a ball in that one ball move that looks like the other but isn't, he can't jump out of it due to have just been a spin ball already".

The reason I said I don't trust other people is because it was only mentioned "oh it doesn't work" but nobody specifically said why. I don't trust things without explanations. Not passing the damage threshold required for popping a balloon is a reason. If someone said that I wouldn't have mentioned a thing or bothered testing it myself.

If the damage threshold thing had been posted first I wouldn't have been as ruffled I suppose, but I saw the theory within more than one custom thread…

I appreciate the explanation, but having had known it didn't work and knowing the knockback on double spring is complete ass, I assumed it was correlated, because that point I stopped being interested. Didn't realize that the damage is even lower on it too… Which further increases my hate for double spring, lol.

I want nothing more than to participate, learn from, and be part of the Sonic community. I like Smashboards a lot. I just don't want to climb this mountain of terms and (perceived if not intended) haughtiness.

We can be pretty lenient as long as it's not completely vague, and I try spelling out the terms instead of abbreviating them constantly around newer players. I think the nature of Sonic's learning curve though does require at least a basic knowledge of some of his terms, Otherwise it's incredibly difficiult to articulate what he's doing if we all have a different mental image on what's described (which is one of the key reasons why people get so tripped up on Spinshot…Whether or not it has the blue aura like a Spin Dash Jump, etc.)

But also because of the nature of our character and his… Subculture… Carrying over from Brawl, we can't help but have some fun with the terminology. It's how we cope.

To not further deviate from the topic of customs, however, I'd like to say I do hope you mean that. I apologize for being stand off-ish but I hope you can at least see where I was coming from on this matter. I think you'll find there are definitely new players here who feel welcome, despite the unorthodox ways.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Truth be told, I've always stated that the Double Spring strategy against Villager's recovery didn't work but never explained why.

I've just said that the DS was garbage simply because it is. Just TRY to gimp Villager when he's recovering.. I found it to be incredibly difficult to even get one Spring to connect, let alone two of them. In a row.

You don't need to trust anyone, just go and try it out (and see how much DS sucks).

Also, to be honest, I had no idea there was a damage threshold in order to pop a balloon, so it's an extra.

 

[Kinzer]

To not further deviate from the topic of customs, however, I'd like to say I do hope you mean that. I apologize for being stand off-ish but I hope you can at least see where I was coming from on this matter. I think you'll find there are definitely new players here who feel welcome, despite the unorthodox ways.

Honestly, I thought the original topic has run its course. Most people here seem to agree that Sonic's custom only give him a different option and not necessarily anything better. You want a custom a outright improves on every aspect of the original, look at Ike's Aethers.

I find it much more interesting, intellectually satisfying, and fulfilling to watch you and other smart people discuss the many different topics, be them related to the topic at hand or otherwise.

Take for example, how I learned that SP is not living in Michigan anymore and rather Arizona; which, this would explain his showing up to one of Vegas' DVDA monthlies. I knew there was a lot of interest; but, not national interest for sure. That was why I was a little bit confused; but, having him say this now, things make more sense.

... Alternatively, this is probably also why I sometimes appreciate threads not being outright closed.

 

[Camalange]

Honestly, I thought the original topic has run its course. Most people here seem to agree that Sonic's custom only give him a different option and not necessarily anything better. You want a custom a outright improves on every aspect of the original, look at Ike's Aethers.

Yup.

I find it much more interesting, intellectually satisfying, and fulfilling to watch you and other smart people discuss the many different topics, be them related to the topic at hand or otherwise.

Embarrass

Take for example, how I learned that SP is not living in Michigan anymore and rather Arizona; which, this would explain his showing up to one of Vegas' DVDA monthlies. I knew there was a lot of interest; but, not national interest for sure. That was why I was a little bit confused; but, having him say this now, things make more sense.

... Alternatively, this is probably also why I sometimes appreciate threads not being outright closed.

Hm… Is this a hint towards me?

I don't know, so far I think all the locking I've done has been deserved. I leave open topics that actually offer a new idea or possibly generate some kind of discussion beyond what's being said elsewhere or repeated over and over again.

Although, we currently have two custom move threads and the only reason why I leave both going is because they both get posted in and I don't want to make it look like I'm trying to silence the discussion on customs, especially with their recent jump in popularity.

Plus, I see this thread now as more of a "What can Sonic do with customs?" since like you said, we all seem to agree that there are no magic customs for Sonic that make him clearly better. The other thread is more of a custom set specific thread, so I'll just let these do their thing.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I was unawares of the c-stick technique for spinshot. I shall practice that post haste. I appreciate the video. And the music in the video :3

Honestly, I thought the original topic has run its course. Most people here seem to agree that Sonic's custom only give him a different option and not necessarily anything better. You want a custom a outright improves on every aspect of the original, look at Ike's Aethers.

Agreed, but I can't quite pin down which matchups you'd want specific customs for.

I think its too early to give up on the double spring (makes catching your landing so annoying, might be decent against Diddy who you don't need the knockback from the spring to gimp?). I have yet to find a use for the decreased jump height after hitting that you get from the Gravitational down B but I'm sure there is something to it. And I haven't used Surprise enough to know if its useful.

I don't know why you'd use burning spin dash, stomp, auto charge, or headbutt though. I had high hopes for headbutt at first but they didn't pan out :/.

Take for example, how I learned that SP is not living in Michigan anymore and rather Arizona; which, this would explain his showing up to one of Vegas' DVDA monthlies. I knew there was a lot of interest; but, not national interest for sure. That was why I was a little bit confused; but, having him say this now, things make more sense.

Bear insisted I be listed as Michigan lol. I recall performing quite poorly at that DVDA. If I am able to make it out again before I move to Miami in ~5 months then I'll hopefully have a better showing. I need to level up regardless though.

 

[Camalange]

I was unawares of the c-stick technique for spinshot. I shall practice that post haste. I appreciate the video. And the music in the video :3

Thanks! :D

Yeah man, C-stick is by far the superior option. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I think its too early to give up on the double spring (makes catching your landing so annoying, might be decent against Diddy who you don't need the knockback from the spring to gimp?).

uuuuugh I want double spring to be cool so bad. Maybe I'll try experimenting with it again myself.

I have yet to find a use for the decreased jump height after hitting that you get from the Gravitational down B but I'm sure there is something to it.

I think Burning Spin Dash also affects Spin Dash Jump heights for both of the spins? It's weird.

 

[Kinzer]

Agreed, but I can't quite pin down which matchups you'd want specific customs for.

You know, I was considering this; but, it's troublesome when custom moves are not universally accepted. It would be a shame if all the research I did as far as finding which customs would be better for which matchups would be wasted when it turned out that the smash community as a whole can't accept things that deviate from "the norm."

Which is a shame, given that I did not consider this. I only thought of them as a general replacement and not for special reasons. And even I'm aware of the potential uses of (for example) Burning Spin Dash Vs. Sheik. Her needles really do put a hamper on Sonic's approach, and if BSD does, in fact, go through them, I feel it'd solve a couple of problems.

 

[da K.I.D.]

This is why you should have been working on that list of kill percents like i told you too, that way you wouldnt have to worry about whether your time would be in vain or not

 

[Kinzer]

This is why you should have been working on that list of kill percents like i told you too, that way you wouldnt have to worry about whether your time would be in vain or not

You mean with no way to test it, right?

I have 98 problems, and two adapters aren't one of them.

 

[B.A.M.]

I really do think Sonics need to take more time to investigate Sonic's customs more thoroughly as from what ive seen so far many of you haven't the slightest clue as to some of the benefits sonic gains from his customs.

I see a myriad of people disregarding stomp, chalking it being a horrific spike despite its vertical trajectory and stop of momentum at the end make it an ideal spike vs some recoveries. Most importantly, stomp jab locks from spindash> footstool until approx. 90%. For those who dont see the importance of this let me break it down for you. If properly timed sonic gets spindash or spincharge into a guaranteed jab lock into a strong hit nair > stuff. This strengthens some of his damage output by a solid margin.

Or the spindash that pitfalls, people dont seem to realize it mitigates some of our landing issues ( yes we have spring but against someone who knows how to fight us spring can put us in a horrific position). It also is better suited to deal with certain projectiles and better hit confirms into uair>spring>uair. It also maintains spinshot while giving us another variant in the form of a veritcal spinshot. The height we gain from this is pretty ridiculous. Also spindash pitfall can be stopped at ANY time its grounded by simply pressing back. its fairly easy to abuse this move on shield and to anti air the crap out of individuals.

Another attribute that I havent seen anyone discuss yet is the CHANGES that happen to our default spin charge when spin dash is changed. We theoretically have more customs that the entire cast due to the changes that occur due to the connections of spindash and spin charge. Anyways ive got microbio. ill post some stuff later.

 

[Camalange]

Another attribute that I havent seen anyone discuss yet is the CHANGES that happen to our default spin charge when spin dash is changed.

We did though.

But hey, the second people can start showing me customs worth instead of theorycrafting, I'll be quite happy.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Another attribute that I havent seen anyone discuss yet is the CHANGES that happen to our default spin charge when spin dash is changed. We theoretically have more customs that the entire cast due to the changes that occur due to the connections of spindash and spin charge. Anyways ive got microbio. ill post some stuff later.

That's because most people don't even know about this, even though it's described in the moveset thread.

Interested in that Stomp to "jab lock" setup. I'd test it but I really don't feel like installing my Wii U right now. Plus, I don't remember if I have the move unlocked on the Wii U.. lols

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

You all suck and aren't welcomed to my birthday party. -Sonic Mains '08-'15

 

[B.A.M.]

I havent seen a thorough discussion regarding how it betters particular options such as our shield pressure game nor the slide cancels differentiating between them but that could just be my own lackluster searching. I still think our customs are being ignored too easily. that being said our defaults are brilliant looool. But I do believe that certain customs are more beneficial according to player strengths, new setups, and MUs. Thats just me though. Again im sure some discussion is done. Sonic Orochi is always doing his due diligence and is the reason I seldom post tech I find lol. But yeah theres some silly stuff we get; no doubt about it. I must say our spin charges customs are damn silly. The only useful custom imo are all of the spindashes and stomp.


@ Camalange : this isnt theorycrafting lol this is tech that exist. Just turn on your wii and do it lol. And just stating spin charge behaves strangely isnt much of a discussion imo. On the real though Cam I do think having access to a smaller jump allows for low aerial pressure more quickly than normal. low jump into ff cross ups are solid options on shield. having such a low empty jump with a hitbox allows silly pressure into grabs jabs, etc. we also are able to more readily utilize uair, which we all know has always been a strong sh option for us vs characters that it can reliably hit grounded. Again, its different; I dont think many Sonics would want to take the time to play such a fundamentally different Sonic. Even for default Sonic, it seems ( correct me if im wrong) that few have really delved into proper utilization of our our sh version of SDJ. I mean the stuff is really safe on block.

And its not just on a theoretical level. Unfortunately I dont have a ton of time, otherwise Id just make a video regarding our wonky custom set. HOWEVER, I just got sponsored by Smash Entity and they have someone who will be able to make high production videos for me with my content. So ill be sure to drop that for you guys whenever I can. Although im sure @ Sonic Orochi will beat me to the punch. lol


EDIT: I forgot to mention among shield pressure low SDJ combos into usmash at kill percent which im sure most of you have already figured out. From it we also get SDJ>grab guaranteed, aerials,tilts,etc and its virtually a safe setup. Obviously we get other combos from that as well. Its honestly the closest thing we have to ASCSC. In fact given that we end up in neutral its in some ways better.


Burning Spin Dash is amazing against any zoner we have to face. It allows us the break their zone far easily and it gives them less time to react due to the lack of the intial Spin dash hop. I feel that the hammer spin dash strengthens our air game and defense and the Burning Spin dash better our overall ground game. Naturally Id put our default in the middle of these two.

 

[Camalange]

My point is that people like to talk big about these customs and I just really want to see someone prove the worth. That's all. I personally invest more time researching other things and I don't even have all the customs unlocked, so if people are so adamant about certain customs then prove it to me, because right now the general consensus is that our defaults are already good, it just comes down to preference or match-ups so I'm not incredibly motivated to pour myself into studying things that might just get banned. I'm all for the research, but I want to see it.

BAM, everything you said sounds great and I hope I'm not coming off as undermining you. I truly would love to see it all in action. If you could please pull through on getting these videos produced, I'd be very grateful. I enjoy making tutorial videos, participating in match-up discussions, and many other aspects of our metagame, but quite frankly, customs is not currently my territory and I haven't drawn enough interest in Sonic's to break them down. I'd be really happy to see people who keep boasting about them put them in action... Even if it's just examples that work or friendly matches of them in action. Just literally anything besides text might help me be more interested.

Also, I think the easiest shield pressure we get off of SDJs are from Lyric Rolls (slow spin dash/spin charge rolls). Consistent SH SDJs would definitely help us more safely apply this pressure and land quickly, and possibly convert faster as well.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

So, I discovered that BSD is safe on shield as long as you SDJ as soon as it hits a shield.

One problem I have with it is that it forces your SDJ to be a BSBS SDJ.. Therefore, using it against a shielding opponent near the edge is generally a bad idea.

 

[Camalange]

So, I discovered that BSD is safe on shield as long as you SDJ as soon as it hits a shield.

We already knew that though?

The downside of it is that it forecasts your option every time since you're forced to SDJ.

One problem I have with it is that it forces your SDJ to be a BSBS SDJ.. Therefore, using it against a shielding opponent near the edge is generally a bad idea.

I didn't know it forced BSBS though. Even better...

Also, @ B.A.M. I tried messing around a bit with FSJ > Stomp set-ups and couldn't get to the ground fast enough to continue the jab lock... Can you help me out here? Am I missing something?

I would do Side-B Hop > FSJ > Stomp > FF > Nothing, lol

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Well, I didn't know that. I thought the SDR hitting a shield would instantly trigger the laggy screech stop but, yeah, that's not the case as long as you SDJ right after the SDR connects.

 

[Camalange]

Well, I didn't know that. I thought the SDR hitting a shield would instantly trigger the laggy screech stop but, yeah, that's not the case as long as you SDJ right after the SDR connects.

Ah, I see. I didn't know that, actually (but ofc I still don't have BSD unlocked yet sooo...) Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

you actually can jump out of BSD just you have to wait a bit after you jump off stage with it compared to being able to quickly jump out using Down B. Also BSD acts like how our spin dash did with the slopes on yoshi's where it's invincible, except now it can't be grabbed or hit at all. We even beat our little macs smash attacks with BSD. Only transcendent hitboxes seem to force a clash situation with it. the only confirmed move i know that outright beat BSD is lucarios default aura sphere

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Wow I just discovered that its probably NECESSARY to have BSD in some of our custom sets. BSD is Sonic's only tool I can find right know that beats the sapling from Timber Counter, Villager's custom down B. The sapling just sits there and causes Sonic to trip regardless of what move in his default moveset he is using. BSD goes right over it though.

 

[Camalange]

That's so weird that it would just ignore the trip effect...

How does it handle bananas?

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I will find out sometime and let you know once I do.

Through experimenting... I think headbutt also might be good against Diddy's recovery. Spring gimps up B, headbutt hits him out of side B, its pretty effective. If BSD goes through bananas and headbutt gimps his recovery, we might have some good tools to beat the monkey god.

Also I'm really enjoying Surprise with a low jumping custom spin.

There may be more than just 1211 in Sonic's future....

 

[Camalange]

My biggest problem is I wish Sonic could act out of surprise attack sooner. I thought it was kind of neat, but I so desperately prefer being able to Spring > Uair kill, considering the knockback on surprise is so low.

 

[Vash_Ericks]

I just tested BSD against bananas. No slip effect from peels on the ground and it causes the peel to despawn. Diddy can stop the BSD by hitting sonic with a thrown peel, but there is no slip effect from that either. It could be worth it to switch to BSD against Diddy just to get rid of peel pressure.

 

[B.A.M.]

We already knew that though?

The downside of it is that it forecasts your option every time since you're forced to SDJ.

I didn't know it forced BSBS though. Even better...

Also, @ B.A.M. I tried messing around a bit with FSJ > Stomp set-ups and couldn't get to the ground fast enough to continue the jab lock... Can you help me out here? Am I missing something?

I would do Side-B Hop > FSJ > Stomp > FF > Nothing, lol

you wont be able to get down to the ground in time to lengthen the jab lock however if u time it right u can actually hit with a landing nair as they rise and combo into another nair, fair, uair and in some cases ( especially if you get the frame cancel) bair. so early percents you should get side-b hop>FSJ> Stomp ( locks)> nair> uthrow> stuff. Honestly im pretty sure we could combo the stomp lock into an ASC but i havent done that yet. Ive mainly gone to nair combos after the stomp lock. My apologies for using jab lock but yeah u have to time nair as you are about to land because of how nair works ( the subtle movement of the sphere). Hope that helps. ill just upload a gif or something of it tomorrow.


@ SamuraiPanda kind of off topic but honestly I already feel we have the essential tools to beat Diddy. I think alot of things come down understanding certain principles. For example, our ftilt and dtilt are amazing vs diddy. Why? because our hurtbox is so low that it negates the option of sh fair. Also at fairly reasonable spacings they can be thrown out preemptively to prevent dash ins for grabs or ellicit an early dash shield. finally our tilts when meaty are relatively safe. these tools alone limit diddy kongs mix up approach game that many fear (thats not even counting the simple option select we have against sh fair using our tilts). Our ideal spacing and speed allows us to readily react to side b, shield and punish. even our ability to shield during dash is a benefit in challenging spacing vs diddy in a relatively safe manner. of course we also have the ability to somewhat apply pressure even when diddy has a naner in hand due to the properties of our spins and Smash 4 items.

Also we all know Diddy main weakness is recovering however many of us tend to seek guaranteed damage over throwing Diddy offstage. I think its vital in the MU because people underestimate how strong the corner is in this game. While juggling is strong, Diddy b reverse and side b can be a nuisance. However offstage it is pretty much required for him to have a safe recovery and so the side b cannot be really used in any other way besides towards the stage. Side b is something we can be with bair over the top with fair and im sure spacing uair. So at the very least you should get some damage from edgeguarding Diddy simply due to the nature of the characters recovery. The best part about it is though of course hitting him out of side b in certain situations is pretty much death for Diddy ESPECIALY against Sonic through the use of spring and HA. If you screw up on any of those things diddy either a) reaches the stage and u get an edgeguarding opportunity or b) Diddy is now above u and cannot use side b to thwart juggles until he gets hit or lands. So I definitely encourage that type of mindset over uthrow guarantees. especially with the nature of our bthrow in terms of knockback and dthrow in terms of trajectory we have options that often require a use of a DJ and side b to recover.


I know I am clearly in the minority now but I truly believe Sonic actually beats Diddy or at least goes even with him. I think it really has to do with the weakness of edgeguarding in the current meta. people are still REALLY bad at it for the most part. Most are too afraid to go out, or want to go balls deep and over-commit vs a character who eventually has to pass u or land at the ledge ( he is coming to u) in order to be safe. Edeguarding is the best risk/reward vs Diddy imo. hes far less likely to reverse momentum because where he is in relation to you and the fact hes offstage ( clipping u with his uairs initally low hitbox doesnt do much for him because he just wasted precious air time and could potentially die. same goes with fairs; its just a place where most characters should at worst case scenario damage him and potentially reset the situation or get a juggle opportunity).

I think the same goes for sheik vs diddy as well except she has a slightly better offstage presents ( in relation to Diddys recovery cuz lol spring + ha 2 gud) but we have a better on stage presence vs naners and far better on stage kill power. but yeah thats just my 2 cents.

 

[da K.I.D.]

FSD:
does 9-12 % with the roll.
Has a bigger hitbOx (and possibly a smaller hurt box) Which along with the damage increase, results in higher all around priority
beats spindash consistently in the sonic ditto.
is invincible to grabs
is invincible to transcendent hitbox attacks
beats or clanks (but usually beats) all rapid jabs cleanly
combos into homing attack after up air stops working
combos into spring up air at kill percents
has some weird mechanic where if you start the move going away from the opponent, but start it inside the opponents hurtbox, it does this weird thing where it instantly does either a 3 hit 16% or 4 hit 24% combo. And i mean instant, like the only way i knew it was more than one hit was because of the training mode combo counter. And if you react fast enough, you can jump out before it s and stil combo out of it with up air or homing attack

Contrary to popular belief it does not ignore all projectiles. All projectiles that can be clanked with stil clank with flame spindash. Mario and luigi fireballs, pikas jolts , etc.
kc24 tipped me off to the point that with the shorthop, down b now combos into back air at pretty much all percents vs every character.
and at 115 or so fsd roll combos into spring up air for a guaranteed kill.

Ps i use wind down b, you never know when youre gonna need to be able to just slightly blow someone away from the ledge

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

burning spin dash also beats out little macs super armor smash attacks and i believe all of is tilts. thus allowing us to get in for free on him unless he blocks in which case we can simply BSDJ and cross him up and land and go into it again to beat out a potential punish.

 

[Camalange]

burning spin dash also beats out little macs super armor smash attacks and i believe all of is tilts. thus allowing us to get in for free on him unless he blocks in which case we can simply BSDJ and cross him up and land and go into it again to beat out a potential punish.

That sounds hilarious.

 

[TIL]

you wont be able to get down to the ground in time to lengthen the jab lock however if u time it right u can actually hit with a landing nair as they rise and combo into another nair, fair, uair and in some cases ( especially if you get the frame cancel) bair. so early percents you should get side-b hop>FSJ> Stomp ( locks)> nair> uthrow> stuff. Honestly im pretty sure we could combo the stomp lock into an ASC but i havent done that yet. Ive mainly gone to nair combos after the stomp lock. My apologies for using jab lock but yeah u have to time nair as you are about to land because of how nair works ( the subtle movement of the sphere). Hope that helps. ill just upload a gif or something of it tomorrow.

I'd really like to know how you did this. I've been testing it and I can't get the falling Nair, whether I FF it or wait it out, the timing is just off. The closest I got to a longer true combo after the stomp would be with a DoubleSpring hit, but there is no KB to open up for a falling Nair. It seems like you can at least follow up stomp with an ASC into a hop and a Nair, making it a 40% combo, which is about how much you'd get from the Nair>Upthrow version.

 

[da K.I.D.]

So i played around with hammer spindash today. And i dont understand why everyone loves it so much, its so awkward to hit with.

Its great for being offstage and getting off the ledge. But its almost impossible to bury people and it doesnt give yoy as much advantage onnhit. I dont understand whats so great aboutbit.

Even my partner says its bad and that you only think that because you havent seen the true power of flame spindash

 

[Junglechief]

Spoiler: Pros and Cons

Pros:

• burying effect;
• adds a neat property to SDR: you can stop it if you press back during the SDR from SD. For SC, you'll have to hold back before the SDR starts (not as great as ASCSC, but it's close. Plus, it adds more options during a grounded SC);
• the hop is FAST and you can hit both on the ascent and the descent (in a single hop);
• makes the ASC silent on release (lol);

Cons:

• hop angle doesn't help as much with recovery like SD1's does (plus, the fact that you fall faster doesn't help much either);
• slowest SDR;
• fastest charge (a.k.a.: smaller window of time to shield cancel it);
• removes a neat property of ASC: makes it lose its multihit ability;
• removes all the good stuff you can do with Spin Dash up close (hop to aerial/footstool etc);
• due to the new SDR property, you can't turnaround a SDR from SD with this move;
• you can't Spinshot out of a single or double charge Spin Charge with the C-Stick when using this move: you'll need to tap the B button at least twice if you want the SS to happen;

Also, it's bad on stages with platforms like battlefield and lylat lol. I didn't realize you can't fsj out of it. That sucks. I still think I'm going to mess with it on basic stages like smashville and town and city. I really like the options it adds and it still lets me combo out of it. Plus it may add a guaranteed way to land usmash if you can predict when they break out of the grounded effect.

It is clearly better than default, though I will admit there are still uses for default. The issue with Battlefield is irrelevant because it is Sonic's worst stage already and with stage striking should always be your first ban, Lylat should be your second, but most people hate it anyway so you probably wont need to ban it, the other player will. The hop angle is actually a lot better for recovery not sure where that con came from. You can also use it for super jumps. The fast falling speed makes it better for getting out of chases as well. Up close this move is beastly, it insta pulls into the air and still hits wicked fast. You can jump cancel it anytime and the angle is so big it makes it very unpredictable. I suggest everyone watch this video I made.

 

[Camalange]

HSD isn't as bad on Battlefield as I thought it'd be.

Also, guys, great news.

I like playing as Sonic on Battlefield again.

Took some time, but I think I'm used to it now. I'm back.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I did up throw to jump hammer spindash double jump up air spring up air and killed somebody at like 60 today.

I still like flame spindash better in general. But hammer is definitely a better move against air based characters like wario, yoshi, and toon link.