Song of Time: Zelda's Changes in PM. 3.6 HYPE

[Arcalyth]

Cop out answer, and if that's the philosophy that the revisions were created under then there's no point in saying any more.

 

[BJN39]

Everyone else will learn how to play her in a more aggressive, combo-oriented, "Smash-y" way.

No.

Get out of here. Right now.

Why should she try being more offensive when she hasn't received any offensive buffs? No one is gonna learn how to play her more offensively.

Her specials' changes actually make it harder to be offensive using those > LESS offensive options.

Also, she's never had any really good combo game, and It's not like she got any better at combo-ing, why would people learn to be more combo-y?

As for playing more "smash-y" that's utter BS, and I will refer you to Loli Bacon's post.

 

[Arcalyth]

I definitely believe Zelda can be combo-oriented in her pre-3.5 incarnations and I also believe that some of the changes introduced in 3.5 directly improved her combo game. See fthrow and ftilt.

 

[BJN39]

I definitely believe Zelda can be combo-oriented in her pre-3.5 incarnations and I also believe that some of the changes introduced in 3.5 directly improved her combo game. See fthrow and ftilt.

Mind elaborating on how Ftilt was improved? Because the changes don't actually help, they're just dumbed up datas that accomplish the same thing they used to. There was NO combo helping changes as far as I can tell.

 

[4tlas]

Fthrow does indeed seem to combo better. Ftilt seems to combo differently, not better nor worse.

People obviously have different definitions of what a Smash character is, and refusing to discuss it is not respecting other people. That is extremely rude. Especially as this is something that is both a personal topic and clearly a matter of opinion.

That being said, I think the core principle of a fighting game is that you directly fight your opponent. You aren't managing armies, or managing resources, or engaging in diplomacy. You are straight-up battling your opponent. What makes Smash different from other fighting games? Nintendo characters. Position is the most important element, more important than health. As such, different stage layouts affect the relationship between the 2 players. Combos are creative, not pre-defined. DI allows opponents to prevent most combos from being guaranteed. Essentially, these last 2 points mean the game is much less combo-oriented than other fighters.

Zelda still plays the positioning game. Zelda is low on combos, both giving and receiving, but she still has and gets combo'd. I don't see how this makes her not a Smash character.

Positioning is key in this game. Threatening space without being threatened is critical, as it is the largest imbalance of risk/reward. Therefore fast characters, who have the ability to threaten large spaces and escape threats, have an inherent advantage. Following that are characters with projectiles, then characters with disjoints, and finally characters with none of the above.

Zelda is slow, with small and precise hitboxes. Melee Dins is not a projectile. Upair is a very conditional disjoint, nayrus is a super punishable disjoint (especially without invuln...), and upair is slow. So she falls into the last category, characters with none of the good tools.

The other characters with none of these tools have something unique in PM. Bowser has armor. Wario and Jiggs have flexible aerial movement instead of ground movement. Ganon has a command grab and strong hitboxes. DK has an amazingly flexible grab and strong hitboxes.

Zelda has strong but TINY hitboxes (LK used to have stronger and tinier hitboxes too). She has teledash for conditional movement (but it used to be good). She has Dins as a quasi-projectile (but it used to cover space). She has nayrus invulnerability (but used to have it in an approach move). Why were all those things taken away? I want to hear a good reason, not "because its more Smash". If that's the reason, then why is it more Smash?

 

[ObdurateMARio]

Fthrow does indeed seem to combo better. Ftilt seems to combo differentl, not better nor worse.

People obviously have different definitions of what a Smash character is, and refusing to discuss it is not respecting other people. That is extremely rude. Especially as this is something that is both a personal topic and clearly a matter of opinion.

That being said, I think the core principle of a fighting game is that you directly fight your opponent. You aren't managing armies, or managing resources, or engaging in diplomacy. You are straight-up battling your opponent. What makes Smash different from other fighting games? Nintendo characters. Position is the most important element, more important than health. As such, different stage layouts affect the relationship between the 2 players. Combos are creative, not pre-defined. DI allows opponents to prevent most combos from being guaranteed. Essentially, these last 2 points mean the game is much less combo-oriented than other fighters.

Zelda still plays the positioning game. Zelda is low on combos, both giving and receiving, but she still has and gets combo'd. I don't see how this makes her not a Smash character.

Positioning is key in this game. Threatening space without being threatened is critical, as it is the largest imbalance of risk/reward. Therefore fast characters, who have the ability to threaten large spaces and escape threats, have an inherent advantage. Following that are characters with projectiles, then characters with disjoints, and finally characters with none of the above.

Zelda is slow, with small and precise hitboxes. Melee Dins is not a projectile. Upair is a very conditional disjoint, nayrus is a super punishable disjoint (especially without invuln...), and upair is slow. So she falls into the last category, characters with none of the good tools.

The other characters with none of these tools have something unique in PM. Bowser has armor. Wario and Jiggs have flexible aerial movement instead of ground movement. Ganon has a command grab and strong hitboxes. DK has an amazingly flexible grab and strong hitboxes.

Zelda has strong but TINY hitboxes (LK used to have stronger and tinier hitboxes too). She has teledash for conditional movement (but it used to be good). She has Dins as a quasi-projectile (but it used to cover space). She has nayrus invulnerability (but used to have it in an approach move). Why were all those things taken away? I want to hear a good reason, not "because its more Smash". If that's the reason, then why is it more Smash?

Because she had an entire toolkit of things that are completely different than anyone else in the cast, which required opposing players to play the game in a completely different fashion. She also completely and absolutely dominated matchups where she held any sort of maneuverability advantage. Having unique attributes isn't bad, but a player can learn how to handle Bowser's armor, Ganon's command grab, etc much more quickly than Zelda's dominating stage control, invincibility, and power. I'm not trying to say the character that you guys have learned is stupid or OP or whatever. I know you put a lot of work in and that you are understandably displeased to see it fall by the wayside. However, I would like to draw an analogy to Melee here.

Let's talk about Melee Marth for a moment. He is pretty unique in Melee. His disjoint and movement are different than any other characters, besides Roy, who we're going to leave out because he is a clone who is inferior to Marth. He does require an adjustment by the opponent, and he does change the flow of the game in comparison to most other top tiers. In a lot of ways people are arguing that Zelda fills a similar role in PM, and I don't think that logic is flawed. Zelda is unique, and she does make the opponent play her different. She forces the opponent to play her game (mostly), be very patient, and she has the ability to slow the game to a crawl at will. Not the same adjustments as Marth in Melee, but this principle stands. They are both unique characters who alter the playstyle of the opponent more than most.

So why did she need a rework? Because while Marth was different and required adjustment, Zelda was so far out of left field that she needed to be brought back into line. Despite that Marth was different from the rest of the Melee cast, he holds far, far more similarities and commonalities than Zelda does with the 'stereotypical' PM character/playstyle. 3.5 Zelda is still unique. She is still different. She still has the ability to change the way the opponent plays her. But she isn't so fundamentally different as to feel foreign to smash player. The minor buffs she received to her combo game should benefit her greatly, and her new Din's has it's own uses that make it more of a trade than a nerf.

And we'll see! Maybe I'm incorrect and she needs more work. Remember PMDT is trying to do something different and unique with Zelda, so I think we should cut them a little slack. If she ends up being awful (which you can already tell she isn't) then I have no doubt PMDT will address that in due course.

 

[Arcalyth]

My fear is that the compromise won't be made. But we'll see.

 

[4tlas]

Because she had an entire toolkit of things that are completely different than anyone else in the cast, which required opposing players to play the game in a completely different fashion. She also completely and absolutely dominated matchups where she held any sort of maneuverability advantage. Having unique attributes isn't bad, but a player can learn how to handle Bowser's armor, Ganon's command grab, etc much more quickly than Zelda's dominating stage control, invincibility, and power. I'm not trying to say the character that you guys have learned is stupid or OP or whatever. I know you put a lot of work in and that you are understandably displeased to see it fall by the wayside. However, I would like to draw an analogy to Melee here.

Let's talk about Melee Marth for a moment. He is pretty unique in Melee. His disjoint and movement are different than any other characters, besides Roy, who we're going to leave out because he is a clone who is inferior to Marth. He does require an adjustment by the opponent, and he does change the flow of the game in comparison to most other top tiers. In a lot of ways people are arguing that Zelda fills a similar role in PM, and I don't think that logic is flawed. Zelda is unique, and she does make the opponent play her different. She forces the opponent to play her game (mostly), be very patient, and she has the ability to slow the game to a crawl at will. Not the same adjustments as Marth in Melee, but this principle stands. They are both unique characters who alter the playstyle of the opponent more than most.

So why did she need a rework? Because while Marth was different and required adjustment, Zelda was so far out of left field that she needed to be brought back into line. Despite that Marth was different from the rest of the Melee cast, he holds far, far more similarities and commonalities than Zelda does with the 'stereotypical' PM character/playstyle. 3.5 Zelda is still unique. She is still different. She still has the ability to change the way the opponent plays her. But she isn't so fundamentally different as to feel foreign to smash player. The minor buffs she received to her combo game should benefit her greatly, and her new Din's has it's own uses that make it more of a trade than a nerf.

And we'll see! Maybe I'm incorrect and she needs more work. Remember PMDT is trying to do something different and unique with Zelda, so I think we should cut them a little slack. If she ends up being awful (which you can already tell she isn't) then I have no doubt PMDT will address that in due course.

Thank you very much for the full response. I think your analogy to Marth in Melee is along similar lines to what I was trying to get at with my post.

I cannot argue against her prior rendition being very strange. In the end of my post I noted that the other characters with none of the good basic options (movement, projectiles, or range) each have one or 2 PM "gimmicks" or other redeeming factors, such as damage or good conditional options. Zelda had multiple PM "gimmicks", and 2 were so drastic that they were indeed difficult for opponents to adapt to. These were teledash and dins. Her other redeeming factors are a wash, as her strong hitboxes are tiny and her good recovery is coupled with a terrible neutral game.

Nerfing each of these gimmicks would have been reasonable. Removing one of them entirely would also have been reasonable. Removing Brawl lightning kicks and Melee/Brawl Nayru's intangibility are definitely overkill if we are solely talking about design and not balance (idk if its balanced, but I think these didn't need to be changed).

Both gimmicks were changed, and in ways that not only affect her success, but also her playstyle. The new teleshort is not useful as an approach because it is too laggy, but instead gives her more options for her already great recovery! She can sweetspot from anywhere, and can get out of combos by teleshorting to any point on the ground from the air. The new Dins does not control space in the same way at all. It may be better than 1 of the old Dins, but I don't think so.

Furthermore, she still has 2 gimmicks! They are just different ones! I have heard far more complaints about new Dins than I ever heard about the old one, because every time someone got destroyed by the old one I would explain to them how to counter it. When I explain what the new one does and how to counter it, most people say it sounds stupid and weird. Now it moves, and they have to pay attention to it even if I misplace it? They can't clank it without a disjoint or a shield? I can make it explode whenever I want? How do you tell if it goes up or down? What the hell is going on with the camera? How do you even see this damn thing?

This is, most of all, immensely frustrating. As someone mentioned before, she has been similar since 2.0. Why this HUGE change all at the SAME TIME? I don't care about if its a nerf or not, I just want to have that old playstyle (my old playstyle used dins but not teledash). It can be ineffective, but right now it isn't even possible.

 

[Loli Bacon]

Honestly, the only thing about her changes that I dislike is the removal of her teledash and lack of j.nB invuln. Without these, she's forced to run away much more, however, her pressure game at a distance is much weaker so she does it worse. Because of these slight changes, her matchup against zoners seems more polarizing than previously, and she still loses to people being all up in her face. Her best matchups might be mid-range characters that lack disjoints, now.

 

[Deleted member]

disagree. i've been playing her very aggressively and i've been quite happy with how adept she is at engaging opposing characters.

 

[HanAmes]

Honestly, the only thing about her changes that I dislike is the removal of her teledash and lack of j.nB invuln. Without these, she's forced to run away much more, however, her pressure game at a distance is much weaker so she does it worse. Because of these slight changes, her matchup against zoners seems more polarizing than previously, and she still loses to people being all up in her face. Her best matchups might be mid-range characters that lack disjoints, now.

I agree...she seems handicapped to me, now; a shell of her (and our) former self, if you will. Teledashing used to be a big part of my game, in which I use it to approach and get into good positions. More than anything, my muscle memory is killing me, but it's something I need to work on, now.

As they say, 'The show must go on.' So, it's up to us as Zelda players to train harder, and even discover new advanced tech that might be able to work in our favor.

 

[Magus420]

On telecanceling, I feel I should mention it's not quite working as intended. If you take a look at it in debug, there are 2 frames upon pressing B that weren't accounted for in the endlag where Zelda remains invisible. It doesn't affect the time the opponent has to see she canceled it, but it does make it feel slower for the Zelda player. In testing I figured it was just the fact I was using a different button making it feel different, but looked into it further after seeing many other Zelda players get the same impression, so expect telecanceling to better fill the role of teledashing at some point in the future.

 

[4tlas]

On telecanceling, I feel I should mention it's not quite working as intended. If you take a look at it in debug, there are 2 frames upon pressing B that weren't accounted for in the endlag where Zelda remains invisible. It doesn't affect the time the opponent has to see she canceled it, but it does make it feel slower for the Zelda player. In testing I figured it was just the fact I was using a different button making it feel different, but looked into it further after seeing many other Zelda players get the same impression, so expect telecanceling to better fill the role of teledashing at some point in the future.

Oh great! Yeah, sometimes I feel like it IS fast enough to still be used as a teledash, but most of the time I cant act out of it promptly. That's probably because of this, where I hit the button and assume I can act, but then end up just wasting my action and having to hit the button twice.

 

[flying_tortoise]

On telecanceling, I feel I should mention it's not quite working as intended. If you take a look at it in debug, there are 2 frames upon pressing B that weren't accounted for in the endlag where Zelda remains invisible. It doesn't affect the time the opponent has to see she canceled it, but it does make it feel slower for the Zelda player. In testing I figured it was just the fact I was using a different button making it feel different, but looked into it further after seeing many other Zelda players get the same impression, so expect telecanceling to better fill the role of teledashing at some point in the future.

Thank you a bunch for reading the thread. That will be extremely useful to tele-cancel

@ Magus420 after setting a din and then trying to immediately activate nayrus by repeating pressing B, for some reason instead of nayrus the action of a side B occurs, calling the din back in (and I am pretty darn sure I'm not slightly holding left). So I am getting punished when I meant to do nayru. I think 4tlas also had the same problem

 

[4tlas]

Thank you a bunch for reading the thread. That will be extremely useful to tele-cancel

@ Magus420 after setting a din and then trying to immediately activate nayrus by repeating pressing B, for some reason instead of nayrus the action of a side B occurs, calling the din back in (and I am pretty darn sure I'm not slightly holding left). So I am getting punished when I meant to do nayru. I think 4tlas also had the same problem

I actually haven't encountered this, probably because I am not cutting my placement of Dins so close to an engagement as to desire an immediate nayrus. I won't have access to a copy of Brawl to replicate this for awhile, sorry.

On another note, is the inability to explode Dins after it has hit something intended? Also, is the loss of the hitbox until it is manually detonated intended? They both seem odd and were not mentioned anywhere. At least the Din continuing in the direction it was originally headed is intuitive, so despite it not being in the changelog it seems intended (and clever, I think).

 

[LonVoen]

disagree. i've been playing her very aggressively and i've been quite happy with how adept she is at engaging opposing characters.

Agreed wholeheartedly. She's extremely fun to play offensively. Her dash speed makes her followups a bit more limited than other characters, but in those situations you generally set a Din in order to give yourself a bit map control / setup potential. It's not unlike snake wanting to push people away to set up a mine, just.. way more magicky and badass in a different way haha.

@ Magus420 I've noticed if I am recovering and I brush against the side of a level (let's say, distant planet) before using up-B straight up, I will disappear, travel no distance, then reappear at the same location before falling to my extremely embarrassing death. Seems like a strange collision issue. This isn't intentional, is it?

 

[BJN39]

I've noticed if I am recovering and I brush against the side of a level (let's say, distant planet) before using up-B straight up, I will disappear, travel no distance, then reappear at the same location before falling to my extremely embarrassing death. Seems like a strange collision issue. This isn't intentional, is it?

The issue of getting stopped by a wall while using FW has been preventable since Brawl, where it happened there.

If you're up against a wall and need to up b, simply input up+b, and then let the control stick reset. AKA, don't hold it in a direction after the animation has started. She will go up the wall~

 

[DarkStarStorm]

My first thoughts on the new Zelda. I've taken a few days to think about this and formulate an opinion.

EVERYONE! THE DIAMOND DIVE IS STILL IN THE GAME! I've done it many times now. The timing is the same, and you get more a downward arc than the new Love Jump. It basically functions the same way as Smash 4's Diamond Dive.

Teleshort is glitchy and dumb, it removes any movement options she had before and does not snap to platforms like the PMDT said it did. The Teledash needs to be returned to its former glory, but the Teleshort should continue to exist just because of the utility of an aerial Teleshort. They also need to fix the two main Farore's Wind glitches: the up-b along the stage glitch (which I have yet to encounter in 3.5) and the glitch where you cannot Teleport down through moving platforms.

The Diamond Dive should've been given middle armor instead of a Grand Slam with the Nerf Bat. Middle armor would mean that you could grab her out of any land-canceled Nayru's, but she could not be hit out of it until middling percents. This buffs FFled Nayru's and the Diamond Dive early stock but making it bad as an anti-juggle later on. It also really helps her against characters that can out-range her well: Marth, Ganon, Roy, Zero Suit, or Ike. The Love Jump is fine as the Lover Hover/Diamond Glide that it is now, simply because this is the best recovery nerf she could have gotten. The Diamond Dive and Fast-Fall Nayru's needs to be returned to their former selves. Zelda lready had a hard time returning to the stage from above and she doesn't need that kind of nerf.

Dins is almost fine in my opinion, the only thing I think it would need is a less laggy return detonation. Whenever you hit someone with the returning dins you cannot explode it right after, you instead have to wait about 60 frames to do so. I say they half that wait time. The new dins is not the worst nerf she has received, but it is something that we will have to wait to pass judgement until the meta develops for a month. From what I've noticed it helps her with some of the more frustrating MUs. Ganon had no respect for Dins before 3.5 and now he fears them like the plague. They are a detriment to him and to other more toxic match-ups.

 

[drsusredfish]

So they didn't fix the wall thing like it says in the changelog. I thnk they forgot to mention her ledge grab box is alot smaller too. If you come at the ledge the same way as 3.02 you either land on top of the stage or stick to the wall just under the ledge and don't grab. Zelda just doesn't snap to the ledge like most other characters.

 

[Arcalyth]

@ Magus420 you just made me a much happier Zelda main.

Now if the Dins return arc was slightly more controllable, and the explosion was slightly more rewarding, in conjunction with the telecancel fix, 3.5 Zelda will be perfect

RIP supersweet but with new Dins I can see why it had to go.

Edit: I also think that the return hitbox should refresh on hit before it comes back to zelda, because it has the tendency to orbit her uselessly at times. Depending on how much control may or may not be granted to the return path this may not be necessary.

 

[Lil Puddin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

I'm not into semantics.

lol

IMO a real smash character is one who has a fighting style that requires knowledge of the character/skill to pull things off. Zelda had a defending style with a side of sweetspot fancy. Which is not fighting, hence her notorious reputation of being boringly annoying to fight someone who uses Zeldoo's "maximum" potential.

 

[4tlas]

lol

IMO a real smash character is one who has a fighting style that requires knowledge of the character/skill to pull things off. Zelda had a defending style with a side of sweetspot fancy. Which is not fighting, hence her notorious reputation of being boringly annoying to fight someone who uses Zeldoo's "maximum" potential.

I think I understand this line of thinking, but I still don't "get" it. Her defensive game was very precise and required intense spacing. How is that any less fighting than other characters' spacing? And how is that made any better with these changes?

 

[Deleted member]

trying to define a "real smash character" is a semantics trap because it just enables a pointless argument about the definition. thats why i provided the link to try to explain the idea better. i'm saying i dont want to get into a petty squabble about my definition versus yours to bring about unnecessary conflict, i'd rather just try to address the game at large in an honest and simplistic manner to actually come to some form of mutual agreement.

 

[drsusredfish]

@ Magus420

Are you the sole designer of Zelda? What is the goal for 3.5 Zelda's design? What is her fighting style intended to be like?

 

[4tlas]

trying to define a "real smash character" is a semantics trap because it just enables a pointless argument about the definition. thats why i provided the link to try to explain the idea better. i'm saying i dont want to get into a petty squabble about my definition versus yours to bring about unnecessary conflict, i'd rather just try to address the game at large in an honest and simplistic manner to actually come to some form of mutual agreement.

If you never discuss the semantics, how are you ever going to debate the actual topic? Sure, we don't need to AGREE on the semantics, but as long as we know what each other's definition is we can understand each other's argument.

That being said, if you don't want to discuss it I can't make you, and I respect that. But if you aren't going to give others the opportunity to understand your stance better, could you not be so self-righteous about it? Both together is...frustrating.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

^Umbreon's point is that Zelda in PM 3.02 was DRASTICALLY different from the rest of the cast, AKA the other "smash characters". She didn't play in a traditional Melee-style fashion, whereas even other characters with PM "gimmicks" (so to speak) played in a fashion that is much more similar to that traditional Melee playstyle. After all, this is Project Melee

 

[FreeGamer]

I would like the new Din's Fire a lot better if it came back to her in a linear arc. You know, instead of some drunken ellipse that someone thought would be hilarious to copypaste from their TI-83 onto a PM character? >_>

The new Farore's Wind cancel is a little slow, but I'm not as concerned about that since Magus addressed it. As for the rest of her moveset, I can dig it.

 

[Tweedle]

We should have a dins that rapidly spirals around the screen. Duh. Insta killing anyone it touches and is 10x larger.

Jk but anything is a good idea at this point because dins is so different.

 

[Arcalyth]

@ Magus420

Are you the sole designer of Zelda? What is the goal for 3.5 Zelda's design? What is her fighting style intended to be like?

Go watch a soul cal 5 viola combo video and then apply timer traps and you have 3.5 zelda.

I think she's meant to combo off of the return hit. You can approach while dins is returning, it forces the opponent to approach (depending on placement) and you can close the space and punish. The opponent has to stuff your midrange interaction.

And that's the point I think the redesign is trying to make, and I think that might be what umbreon means by "real smash character." Admittedly, 3.0 zelda did not have much midrange interaction (midrange being the average dash attack/nairplane range) and so she couldn't set up into her mid-close stuff (normals and aerials) without gaining advantage from dins, turning the interaction toward the Dins and not zelda herself.

With a little more polish I'm really starting to believe that this zelda design will be much more fast paced and overall more within the design goal of project m and still be balanced.

Edit: keep in mind that her single dins game is almost the same as 3.0 except she can recall the fireball now. But you don't have to do that, you can still play her like 3.0 in that regard. It's just that her movement is less dependent on moving within 3 safe zones created by traps. That's what the return hit is for; the trap adjusts dynamically based on movement, instead of movement being defined by the trap.

 

[drsusredfish]

Viola is my main in SC5 i saw the dins similarity right away when I used it a couple times (din is just like violas orb set 6B+K right down to the little spin animation)

the difference with orb and din is the opponent can interact with din.

She definitely has combos don't get me wrong i like the direction din went in. I figured out in the first 5 hours of release how to use the return hit box combined with teleports to throw the opponent off but the opponent has to be a sleep to get hit by it. Its a nice trick but since it only hits once it isn't that good.

this din does not force approach because its easier to clank and only the long full timer explosion is ko threat. (unless they are close to the side blast zone)

Also it doesn't have much hitstun for her to capitalize from the distance she has to use it at. the fast din almost hits like a falco lazer but she doesn't have the falco mobility to make use of it, at the moment.

It also doesn't help that the opponents interacting with the din can trump my interaction with it like being able to keep me from exploding it because they touched it in anyway. I should only not be able to explode it if its hit by a clanking hit box or sheild If i hit them with it i should get rewarded by being able to blow it up and actually use the quick detonate for something other than staling.

In short yeah Zelda needs more polish but that won't be here for like another 3 months.

 

[LonVoen]

@ BJN39 Awesome, thanks! That will help a ton.

I think Zelda feels completely fantastic. Din is such a great tool for altering the game's momentum and pacing and enables so many interesting tricks. However, the precision required by her fair/bair coupled with her low run speed keep her feeling like a frame trap character to me.

Is teledashing just wavedashing out of upB like from 3.02? It seems completely gone but maybe I'm missing something or misread the thread??

Might all be useless or redundant since I didn't use her in 3.02 much at all, but in case there are people new to her/just for throught here's some stuff I've been playing with and random tidbits::
1) Enemies with poor OoS options make short hop ss fair on shield while crossing-up->
-nair (good follow-up potential and the multi-hit gives you more options for when to fast-fall it, mixing up defensive option timings slightly)
-bair (kill move, crazy shield damage. this would be your go to followup if you read an unsafe reaction)
-land+nayru (nayru is fast so it works as a great mixup w/ grab and will frametrap inexperienced players or those in a defensive mindset. it's unsafe, but a tool you can use to scare people into flinching and eating a bair or grab in this situation)
-land+grab
-dsmash (shield poke potential and faster than nayru probably so it also operates as a frametrap, but requires more precision when landing so that you don't whiff

...Although the guys I play with don't wavedash OoS so it's probably not as strong as it seems right now.

2)Falling nair on back of shield (like after the above) ->
-Nayru / dsmash (frametraps listed above)
-dtilt (if opponent is at 'pop up' percent for this it is an extremely potent finisher setup and it shield pokes after very little shield damage)
-ftilt (fairly unsafe but has better range than dtilt. not sure if the hitbox that pulls the opponent behind you goes farther than dtilt but it sets up for a bair or uair if the opponent DIs poorly. this seems like a DI mixup with dtilt in situations where both would hit. need to check framedata for speeds as well though as I'm sure there are cases where only one move is applicable)

3) Wavedash -> fsmash has GREAT range and its lingering hitbox is very strong for ensuring a hit (like when they techroll)

4) Haven't played around with uThrow too much, but dThrow/fThrow is a poor man's DI mixup. I haven't done any weight/percentage testing and these aren't guaranteed, but I've landed the following in a few instances. if they DI against your throw you can get
DThrow-- bair finisher, uair juggle, nair juggle, dash attack, running upsmash, regrab, ftilt or fsmash
FThrow-- usually a tech-chase, maybe a jab reset or any of the above if they're floaty
if they DI outwards you're much more limited, I generally use the time to do a short hop din towards them.
Since Fthrow much more limited followups they should generally di towards you.

You can anticipate DI from throws a lot better when they have a din's looming nearby as they'll almost always DI directly away from it. USE THAT TO MAKE THEM SPARKLESAD.

5) drop off ledge -> (jump)dair has a great lingering hitbox if you miss the sweet spot spike. it's great for resetting a situation of someone recovering from below

6) Since you have a poor run speed, use Din when you read a backwards tech. you can land it on them as they get up OR if they get up in place you can call it to set up an advantageous situation for you

7) Use uSmash OoS. it's so, SO good.

8) I think din will arc down or up after it is pulled depending on, while placing it, what your last input was. directly sideways = down arc. otherwise it reacts as you'd think it would (up = up, down = down). This is useful when opponents are recovering and you'd like to time Din's arc in such a way that it makes it more likely to hit so they need to potentially burn a recovery option. For example:

in the first option you angle it up slightly to prevent them double jumping over it while also making it potentially catch them later on the return. they have the luxury of being able to delay their upB/jump a bit to try and dodge the din but you get potential follow-up options ( jump off aerials / dsmash over edge if they mistime their sweet spot due to trying to dodge din)
in the second option they are higher up thus will take more time to travel under a din you put in between them and the ledge. since the din will intercept them lower on its return this makes their recovery much harder by limiting their options/timing. However, this doesn't give you as many follow-up options.
Hopefully that shoddy ass diagram and my 4th grade writing skills illustrates (literally??) the point I'm making haha.

sorry for wall of text

tl;dr yo zelda woahhh

EDIT: Please share tips and tricks :o unless that should be done elsewhere. In which case.. ****.

 

[drsusredfish]

somthing else that might be interesting how about instead of the din unlinking when she is invisible make it un link when she is intangible so not only up b but things like rolls, spot doges, ledge rolls, ledge stalls, the few intangible frames in ground nayru, and air dodge also give her a degree of control over the dins flight path. The longer she can keep the din from coming back to her the better. Being able to roll past the din would be great pressure since it makes her more safe and makes the din have to do a loop to further pester the opponent.

 

[LonVoen]

somthing else that might be interesting how about instead of the din unlinking when she is invisible make it un link when she is intangible so not only up b but things like rolls, spot doges, ledge rolls, ledge stalls, the few intangible frames in ground nayru, and air dodge also give her a degree of control over the dins flight path. The longer she can keep the din from coming back to her the better. Being able to roll past the din would be great pressure since it makes her more safe and makes the din have to do a loop to further pester the opponent.

I think it's pretty good as is. Or at least requires more experimentation. The longer din takes to place, the longer it takes to return, the better it is (in neutral situations). It's an interesting trade-off and requires a meaningful decision when placing it. Fully charged din you can dance around for until it expires very easily. Also, for slightly charged dins don't forget teleport. If the opponent has map control I will occasionally pull a din on the opposite side of the stage from me, then teleport towards the middle. This causes the din to spin back towards you adding relative safeness to the teleport.

Also, Zelda's airdodge is good for dodging attacks while moving towards the ground and forcing a din hit in instances where you have one returning and you are recovering from above. Might not accomplish a lot per se, but it's a far cry better than just being at the opponent's mercy, haha.

 

[4tlas]

^Umbreon's point is that Zelda in PM 3.02 was DRASTICALLY different from the rest of the cast, AKA the other "smash characters". She didn't play in a traditional Melee-style fashion, whereas even other characters with PM "gimmicks" (so to speak) played in a fashion that is much more similar to that traditional Melee playstyle. After all, this is Project Melee

If his perspective is similar to yours, then we already had this discussion about it further up the thread, so I don't need to argue about this one. Thanks for trying to clarify



I don't have a problem with the new Dins concept, just the implementation. I can cast it at midrange better, but its impossibly slow (and will just be clanked) at long range. It does nearly no shield damage and nearly no hitstun on the return, so I already have to be in melee (close) range to pressure them simultaneously, and with Zelda's poor mobility she is forced to also be in close range for an extended period just to get a small amount of reward from the Din. If she starts in close range when placing it, the return is so quick that the timing window is very restrictive.

Pretty much the only options are to telecancel in as the Dins hits, or place the Din near you and telecancel behind the opponent to surprise them with the Din. Both of these are one-time tactics, as there is no mixup. And the mixup of telecancelling away to set up Din traps is also gone, since you get only 1 meh Din to set up.

Having it unlink when intangible sounds like a good idea, or just increase the hitstun/shield damage. I feel much more mindless when I use the Din now, since it doesn't matter all that much where I place it so long as it is out of clank range. This way I get it to come back and pressure eventually, and hopefully my opponent forgets about the thing that zooms the camera out. Before I placed them very strategically and carefully, since the places were permanent. And other people liked fighting that more because once the thing was placed they knew where it was. Also I could never make them explode earlier, so they always had a full 3-second window to approach, and more if I set the Dins poorly.

 

[Deleted member]

the real issue with 3.02 and prior zeldas going back to 2.0 is that ryoko designed her moves such that the character as a whole strongly discouraged interaction. i don't think this design facet was intentional on ryoko's part, but attempting to correct the issue was strongly resisted by the dedicated zelda players in the last 4 versions or so. i made a note to some members of the development team back when i first tested the game in feb 2011, when the game was missing half its cast and the melee mechanics had just been imported. indeed, it became a running joke that "zelda ruins friendships" in the group because they said hey lets get this amazing melee zelda player to test zelda++ with moves that always win. this change of design ethos is very very far from being a new development. contrary to the old design, the new one strongly encourages interaction on both sides in a way that is familiar with the rest of the cast. ive gotten quite a bit extreme resistence personally in the skype chat as well, but it is this attitude that helped keep the character from changing, right down to ryoko himself personally resisting alterations to the character.

 

[flying_tortoise]

Go watch a soul cal 5 viola combo video and then apply timer traps and you have 3.5 zelda.

I think she's meant to combo off of the return hit. You can approach while dins is returning, it forces the opponent to approach (depending on placement) and you can close the space and punish. The opponent has to stuff your midrange interaction.

And that's the point I think the redesign is trying to make, and I think that might be what umbreon means by "real smash character." Admittedly, 3.0 zelda did not have much midrange interaction (midrange being the average dash attack/nairplane range) and so she couldn't set up into her mid-close stuff (normals and aerials) without gaining advantage from dins, turning the interaction toward the Dins and not zelda herself.

With a little more polish I'm really starting to believe that this zelda design will be much more fast paced and overall more within the design goal of project m and still be balanced.

Edit: keep in mind that her single dins game is almost the same as 3.0 except she can recall the fireball now. But you don't have to do that, you can still play her like 3.0 in that regard. It's just that her movement is less dependent on moving within 3 safe zones created by traps. That's what the return hit is for; the trap adjusts dynamically based on movement, instead of movement being defined by the trap.

Edit2: please based PMDT give us just slightly more control over the return arc. Or make it slightly more linear. OR allow the return hit to refresh on hit. Honestly I would prefer the latter, the Dins movement is nuanced based on placement, charge time, and zelda's movement

Lol arcalyth I literally wrote a a page front and back addressing how I believed zelda would be more combo-oriented (when you asked me to clarify why I believed it), and my main point was that I also REALLY value the returning din's moving hitbox.
Why I didn't post it? It was basically 2 pages, I was lazy, and would've been TL:DR

 

[flying_tortoise]

@ BJN39 Awesome, thanks! That will help a ton.

I think Zelda feels completely fantastic. Din is such a great tool for altering the game's momentum and pacing and enables so many interesting tricks. However, the precision required by her fair/bair coupled with her low run speed keep her feeling like a frame trap character to me.

Is teledashing just wavedashing out of upB like from 3.02? It seems completely gone but maybe I'm missing something or misread the thread??

Might all be useless or redundant since I didn't use her in 3.02 much at all, but in case there are people new to her/just for throught here's some stuff I've been playing with and random tidbits::
1) Enemies with poor OoS options make short hop ss fair on shield while crossing-up->
-nair (good follow-up potential and the multi-hit gives you more options for when to fast-fall it, mixing up defensive option timings slightly)
-bair (kill move, crazy shield damage. this would be your go to followup if you read an unsafe reaction)
-land+nayru (nayru is fast so it works as a great mixup w/ grab and will frametrap inexperienced players or those in a defensive mindset. it's unsafe, but a tool you can use to scare people into flinching and eating a bair or grab in this situation)
-land+grab
-dsmash (shield poke potential and faster than nayru probably so it also operates as a frametrap, but requires more precision when landing so that you don't whiff

...Although the guys I play with don't wavedash OoS so it's probably not as strong as it seems right now.

2)Falling nair on back of shield (like after the above) ->
-Nayru / dsmash (frametraps listed above)
-dtilt (if opponent is at 'pop up' percent for this it is an extremely potent finisher setup and it shield pokes after very little shield damage)
-ftilt (fairly unsafe but has better range than dtilt. not sure if the hitbox that pulls the opponent behind you goes farther than dtilt but it sets up for a bair or uair if the opponent DIs poorly. this seems like a DI mixup with dtilt in situations where both would hit. need to check framedata for speeds as well though as I'm sure there are cases where only one move is applicable)

3) Wavedash -> fsmash has GREAT range and its lingering hitbox is very strong for ensuring a hit (like when they techroll)

4) Haven't played around with uThrow too much, but dThrow/fThrow is a poor man's DI mixup. I haven't done any weight/percentage testing and these aren't guaranteed, but I've landed the following in a few instances. if they DI against your throw you can get
DThrow-- bair finisher, uair juggle, nair juggle, dash attack, running upsmash, regrab, ftilt or fsmash
FThrow-- usually a tech-chase, maybe a jab reset or any of the above if they're floaty
if they DI outwards you're much more limited, I generally use the time to do a short hop din towards them.
Since Fthrow much more limited followups they should generally di towards you.

You can anticipate DI from throws a lot better when they have a din's looming nearby as they'll almost always DI directly away from it. USE THAT TO MAKE THEM SPARKLESAD.

5) drop off ledge -> (jump)dair has a great lingering hitbox if you miss the sweet spot spike. it's great for resetting a situation of someone recovering from below

6) Since you have a poor run speed, use Din when you read a backwards tech. you can land it on them as they get up OR if they get up in place you can call it to set up an advantageous situation for you

7) Use uSmash OoS. it's so, SO good.

8) I think din will arc down or up after it is pulled depending on, while placing it, what your last input was. directly sideways = down arc. otherwise it reacts as you'd think it would (up = up, down = down). This is useful when opponents are recovering and you'd like to time Din's arc in such a way that it makes it more likely to hit so they need to potentially burn a recovery option. For example:

in the first option you angle it up slightly to prevent them double jumping over it while also making it potentially catch them later on the return. they have the luxury of being able to delay their upB/jump a bit to try and dodge the din but you get potential follow-up options ( jump off aerials / dsmash over edge if they mistime their sweet spot due to trying to dodge din)
in the second option they are higher up thus will take more time to travel under a din you put in between them and the ledge. since the din will intercept them lower on its return this makes their recovery much harder by limiting their options/timing. However, this doesn't give you as many follow-up options.
Hopefully that shoddy *** diagram and my 4th grade writing skills illustrates (literally??) the point I'm making haha.

sorry for wall of text

tl;dr yo zelda woahhh

EDIT: Please share tips and tricks :o unless that should be done elsewhere. In which case.. ****.

TOW thread is currently discussing the new din

edit: also sry for double post

EDIT #2: Guys Plz stop doing the @ thing with magus's name. I know I was the first one to do it and I'm sorry. I just don't want to bug the guy who is cool enough to check this thread and see what we think (and also fix any bugs). Thanks guys, and Magus again I'm sorry.

 

[4tlas]

the real issue with 3.02 and prior zeldas going back to 2.0 is that ryoko designed her moves such that the character as a whole strongly discouraged interaction. i don't think this design facet was intentional on ryoko's part, but attempting to correct the issue was strongly resisted by the dedicated zelda players in the last 4 versions or so. i made a note to some members of the development team back when i first tested the game in feb 2011, when the game was missing half its cast and the melee mechanics had just been imported. indeed, it became a running joke that "zelda ruins friendships" in the group because they said hey lets get this amazing melee zelda player to test zelda++ with moves that always win. this change of design ethos is very very far from being a new development. contrary to the old design, the new one strongly encourages interaction on both sides in a way that is familiar with the rest of the cast. ive gotten quite a bit extreme resistence personally in the skype chat as well, but it is this attitude that helped keep the character from changing, right down to ryoko himself personally resisting alterations to the character.

Interaction is discouraged when the risk is higher than the reward. Zelda, a character archetype that is pure defensive, cannot take action herself. Therefore, no matter how skewed the risk vs reward is when she does interact, it is always less risky (0 risk) to not interact with her. This has nothing to do with Ryoko's changes, this is just the defensive archetype. To encourage a player to interact with an opponent, they require offensive tools that succeed often/well enough to make the risk/reward of taking action a net positive.

Teledash is her offensive tool, as it allows her to actually use her other tools in an advantageous position. Perhaps without the extra delay Magus said was a bug, this tool is still usable, but currently I find it just barely too slow. Furthermore, without the opportunity to play defensively, the mixup of retreat is lost.

Land-cancelled Nayru's was usable offensively, and without the invuln is much harder to use defensively. If this is the objective, then Magus did a good job.

Old Dins was usable both offensively and defensively. I find the new Dins to be not useful in either situation, but more useful defensively.

I still don't see what the super sweetspot on the Lightning Kicks had to do with anything. If anything, they were an offensive tool because you usually hit them because the opponent is already in hitstun from your successful attack.

Most of all, I disagree with the notion that having a defensive character is a bad thing. I disagree with the notion that having more unique characters is a bad thing. I disagree with the notion that in 3.0 and prior Zelda was bad for the game.

Ryoko made Zelda's defensive options better. This made the risk higher for opponents approaching. But he also made her offensive options better, which made the risk higher for taking no action. The versatile moves, such as old Dins, were the best way to do this, as it encouraged opponents to approach so that Zelda couldn't set up a wall with 2 Dins and use the 3rd to rack up damage safely.



I don't know what was tried by the developers for ways to improve her, but I don't think changing what the move does when successful was the best way to do it. I think it would be better to add more weaknesses to it. A thought I had was to make Zelda take damage from Din getting clanked relative to the damage the move would do. This makes it less mindless to set up a defensive wall, rewards opponents for removing Dins (it already did, but most players want to interact with the opponents character, not their agents. This would feel more satisfactory for players), and encourages Zelda to defend her Dins. Perhaps also make Dins not disappear upon being hit as well, which allows you to hit it multiple times to rack damage, but allows Zelda to keep her "positioning". Perhaps this isn't even possible, and I understand coding limitations are far more important than designing the best possible thing. Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.

 

[TimeSmash]

Please prepare for a wall of text on what I think of Zelda and various things about her so far.

Because I've been playing in teams a lot, I haven't had a lot of solo experience with Zelda, but then I did and it was amazing. So I'll go from both perspectives.

The most controversial thing is probably Din's. Which is weird as **** to use but the recall is actually great. Right now, I'm using Din's based on the recall part versus the offensive part hahahaa. But because the recall command animation is so fast, you can use it in anticipation of a hit and also just whenever. It helps to break up combos, and even throws (though you have to time it before getting grabbed, hm). At low percents the recall can be a godsend because you can quickly retaliate and capitalize upon the recall flame hitting the opponent, and if you're not too far away, do a lot of mean things to them. This helps retain some of the punish-heavy Zelda we have come to know and love. While not as zoning as before, Din's is not actually garbage! You just have to learn how to place it and take advantage of the recall. The fact that you fastfall during it must be a bug, but for the time being can be used to mess with opponent's reads and spacing. Also, something to look out for that I personally think should be changed and isn't really asking a lot is that if you press B immediately after casting out Din's, you recall it. So if I wanted to do something like Din's->Nayru's in an attempt to cover myself, I couldn't. It's hard to explain. And that recall animation while short will mess with my recovery. So watch out for that. Din's is actually nice for edgeguards because you can still place it around or on the ledge and give the opponent limited options, many of which you can read and play off of. Furthermore, Din's can be placed far off the ledge to interfere with recoveries and gimp, albeit it feels like this doesn't do as good a job as it did in 3.02, it is plenty viable. When doing this though, you do refresh the character's ability to recover (and double jump? Memory is spacy right now) so be sure to do it when it's mostly guaranteed or you can react in such a way it fits your favor. (SUPER unlikely, but let's say they angle their recovery and/or jumps around it, you can come in with a Lightning Kick, or even a down air if you're feeling ballsy) One more thing to note is that if timed right, you can have the recall Din's used in a grab or throw to tack on more damage, often serving as an extra pummel. Using DThrow because of its long duration makes it a lot easier for the recall hit to land. (Since I am using recall so much, it would be great if we had a term for it instead of "recall hit" but I currently can't think of anything). Creativity is heavily emphasized with this move, really. Perhaps messing with the camera by using Din's can be of use

In teams, Din's is very nice for saving your teammate but can also interrupt their movements and combos. However, weak hits of Din's such as initial placement and recall hits will stop their momentum, which is heavily situational but can prevent a KO. In the ToW thread someone talked about how Din's can be doubly absorbed by Ness and Mr. Game and Watch if they're fast enough. Again, situational, but you can help heal your teammate or fill the Bucket somewhat faster than other team combos with this. Din's can also be used to annoy opponents trying to edgegaurd your teammate, interrupting them. As a last ditch effort, you can throw a Din's out beyond a ledge to aid in your teammate's recovery. The recall hit of Din's can greatly **** up your teammate's combo or edgeguarding though, so try to be aware of your position in relevance to them.

Lighting Kicks...ahhh. Not the best. The sweetspot has definitely changed, and since I'm so used to 3.02 and Smash 4, which sort of have similar sweetspots, it's weird to get used to. Something like ledgehop -> Fair doesn't seem to work now, but again I'm very new with the kicks, so that may be just spacing. But at the same time, I'm not going to attempt ledgehop->Fair if it's way more risky. The removal of super-crit kicks is removed, but the kicks themselves still have plenty of knockback. I played a lot of Yoshi's Island Melee last night, and even though that stage is double edged for Zelda due to small blast zones, if you capitalize on punishing you can get early kills. So Kicks are harder to hit with, but are still somewhat viable. It's depressing that with down throw alterations, Down Throw->Bair is harder to hit with, but I have hope for the modified and now hopefully actually usable Forward Throw, which I didn't get to use much. I think Bair is still faster than Fair, but I didn't see much of a difference. I am trying to think of more stuff to say about kicks, but again I didn't really have TOO much use of them yet, but they feel remarkably less safe. L-cancelling is important!!! (Too bad I always forget to)

For teams, Lightning Kicks are risky since you can kill your teammate quite easily with them. However, they serve as a good team-combo finisher or really or to hit an opponent your teammate just launched at you (the more hitstun on the opponent, the better obviously). It's also a good move to use if an opponent is caught up in a grab. Moreover, while a bit slow it's good to just get an opponent off your teammate if the opponent is using a lot of pressure. (Can I just shorten opponent to O and teammate to TM? Can I not be so damn lazy?)

Farore's is weird to work with now, but proved to be very effective on Yoshi's Island Melee, where I would use it a lot on the top two platforms and come down on the main platform. It feels much easier to pivot with it, but I have been awful at wavedashing recently so maybe that's it. Teleshort (is that the new term for it?) followed by an Ftilt pivoted or not, proved to be a good way to snipe the opponent, and I'm sure that are other moves that benefit from this. I believe someone said the ground reappear animation would be shortened, but I can't remember. It's still usable, but different to use. Wavelanding/dashing from it to front or back is out, but the reappear animation is still quite fast and the move itself, shortened or not, is good to work back to neutral. It feels harder to sweetspot on the ledge, though that may be me. The getting stuck in walls glitch is still there, but is somewhat remedied by the new mehcanics. Ledgegrab->Farore's is still viable and the new angle still helps keep edgeguarding opponents at bay. Be aware that the ledge invincibility is only five regrabs now (which is more than enough). It's actually nice you can shorten it in the air, but the reappear animation feels SO LAGGY for some reason. Teleburn is still in, but the knockback seems to be a lot less. It still serves as a surprise GTFO move, but don't try to approach with it. Although you can, it's situational. Worth noting that in teams if you're in an area where everyone is close quartered, a properly timed Teleburn will break up everyone in that group momentarily. You'll most likely hit your teammate during this, but it has its uses.

Transform, used it like twice. Still has IASA, but the buffered move mechanics are different I believe. Didn't use it much, so can't comment.


Among other things, I noticed USmash on fastfallers appears to be less "free" in that you can't just use USmash right away after the animation is finished to chain the opponent. It still sort of works, but often times I would have to read their DI or a failed tech to get them a second time. I did most of my USmash experiments against Falco, so keep that in mind. Because of the SDI multipliers, it is somewhat easier to escape. I used to be able to chain three USmashes on fastfallers, but I can only get two now. Regardless, it's still a decent move.

UTilt is still awesome that is all.

Down Throw feels so weird now! It seems the angle is sends away at (behind Zelda) is lower, like I said before you can't as easily follow up with a Bair. But saying this now I almost wonder if you could use a Dair and see what happens (someone test this please!!) But maybe the angle is just me, as the changelog says nothing about it really unless KB compensation has something to do with it. Regardless, Down Throw still does 14% damage which is incredibly respectable for a throw. Also, remember that while Zelda's pummel does slightly less damage, it is faster, so try to throw one in before you throw! Unintentional pun. Also worth noting again that the recall hit of Din's is great to work this throw into, as when Zelda is stomping on them, the recall hit can come in and do some extra damage. DThrow is still my go to throw as of now, and people still seem to DI it weirdly, which is helpful.

Back Throw feels weaker, but probably isn't. It also seems easier to DI up, but again, placebo effect. Didn't use Forward throw as much but it seems you can actually follow up on it now versus situational stuff.

Up Throw can still chainthrow I believe, but I didn't use it much. However, at lower percents you can follow up quite soundly with a Lightning Kick.

Forward Tilt is still a nicely spaced move to get people to back off. I'm not sure if you can still follow it up with Back Air, as most of the times I hit with it the opponent flew in front of me. Is still decently fast and a solid move overall.

UpAir WAHHHH. The explosion feels so much weaker due to the knockback nerf. The move feels...different, but you can still do upwards KOs with it, albeit at higher percents. For some reason, it feels easier to link to UpAirs together in the air. What happened to me on Yoshi's was that I UpAired, they got enough knockback to stay in the air for a while, I immediately fastfell after hitting with the explosion, then followed their DI and double jumped to hit with another UpAir explosion and killed them. It feels easier, but it might be a placebo effect.

Okay I was supposed to go do work with my friend twenty minutes ago but these are just my opinions haha. I dunno if it's because I did this hastily, but I am just not able to process the terms defined in the Changelog post (KBG, BKB) beyond very basic defintions, so if someone wants to explain them more, please do so because I'm sure I'm not the only one a little confused haha. Although I mentioned it multiple times, some of this may be due to placebo stuff and might not actually be true, but I usually noted what I thought might be just me. If I used any terms wrong, sorry, this was written thought out at first but then hastily!!!

 

[Rizner]

so, I'mma post overall thoughts on 3.5 Zelda for now, but I would like to have it stated I don't have a ton of playtime in 3.5 just yet and these are mostly initial beliefs. If I'm wrong about something, please call me out on it. Due to the sudden release I am unable to free up time in the immediate future to get lots of good experience with the game, and if I don't go to a tournament by myself this weekend it might be like a month before I can get the time for a tournament experience with the build.

Having said that, here we go with just overall thoughts:
Zelda in 3.02 to me was not about being always defensive and having no direct interactions, but it was a fight to create interactions on your terms. It meant creating space, opening up some avenues of approach and closing some avenues of approach. Her design when compared with the rest of the cast worked well for this in some matchups, but created some matchups where dins and quick options from Zelda could limit interactions. I'm thinking matchups like Zelda vs Ness, MK (some stages), maybe DK, Marth, and probably 3-4 others. For the rest of the cast, I believe that it forced other characters to approach the Zelda m/u different than they would against most of the cast. And while I don't see that as a problem (I'm all for needing to play matchups vs characters differently and having unique matchups) I believe this is where the dev team saw problems, and the things they wanted to change.

Their approach to this, just based on what I see (here's one of those things where I should be called out if I'm incorrect), was to change how Zelda plays. It was to make her less of a character about controlling opponent approaches and creating safe approaches for herself, and more into a character which should be played aggressively and in the face of the opponent.

So if she is now best in that playstyle and not very effective in tournament-level play, why should I continue to play Zelda? (note: I'm not saying I am dropping her, just that the question is present)

If Zelda is now aimed to be offensive and in your face, why would I not play another character who does that same function, but better? I used her before because the style she presented was fun - she could be played in a way that controlled space differently than anyone in the game, and in a way which I found entertaining. I understand that her 3.02 iteration had elements which were considered by many as toxic. I understand that there were matchups which could be played in a defensive/run away/cat-and-mouse chase style. I think that was in a large part (although definitely not entirely) due to the stages most tournaments ran (btw apex ruined pm stage lists in all other tournaments and that's sad). But I think if the pm team wanted to keep character diversity they could have changed the specials in a different way to keep her in the same function, just more in balance with eliminating frustrating matchups and mechanics which aren't in line with design goals.

Now that I see how all other characters were modified and what the 3.5 environment is, these are how I believe changing Zelda could have worked to tone her down in this new environment while keeping her style the same:
Make dins exterminate on shield (allows characters who have trouble with them due to their hitbox properties the ability to remove any on the ground pretty quickly). Limit 2 dins out at a time (can't close off as many lanes). Do not let a third dins cast to replace one already out/refresh the timer (doesn't allow constant/continuous times) -- make it so if she tries too early there's a decent amount of failed cast lag so someone who is really focusing on constant sitting back and casting has to be super careful and not perfect about how it's going (terribly worded but oh well).
Eliminate invincibility on neutral b, allow love jump to be used with less knockback against her (think falco laser enables love jump), make neutral b one use per aerial time unless hit (love jump can't then neutral b to fall faster with a decent hitbox, forces an up-b out of Zelda if an opponent challenges the space below her)
Increased landing lag on aerial up-b (makes it when she up-b after love jump to get back down pretty punishable, and goes in line with recovery nerfs across the board - she has to get that ledge with a sweet spot which can be guarded or get hit once landing on the ground).

If those three moves were changed like that, I think it would provide a different conversation for how to change the rest of her kit. Is that enough to tone her down for this new environment? Should she get reduced kb on kicks as well as no supersweetspot? Should ftilt combo as hard as it does? How would other characters have multiple angles of approach against her or be able to get past her options, and can she approach characters who can just outcamp her or does she need those run and grab speed increases? The rest of her kit can start to be tweaked and modified to go along with the 3.02 design, but in a way to keep her function and style the same just less toxic about limited interactions.



At this point, I think I see PM as having taken a large step towards making rush-down styles the correct option, and from the changes across the board it seems to favor that as the correct playstyle. Defensive options are frowned upon, and projectiles and spacing are only going to be good when they are designed for offense. I think if this path is continued down, PM risks losing the character diversity which makes it great. To me it doesn't matter that a specific character is good or viable or whatever, but that multiple styles of play and strategies and options can be used at high levels effectively, and at this point with this build I see less options possible.

But yeah, like I said before: If I misinterpreted something, misunderstood something or am wrong about something posted here, please let me know. I'm sure there are others out there with more experience with this build, and that I have assumed a lot about what I think intentions are and I could be completely wrong about those assumptions. I don't mind being corrected, and once I do get more time to really delve into the details of this build I might even correct myself on some of these things. We'll see.


So yeah. Let me know what you think about this? (not necessarily the specific changes, that was just used as an example of options and not a 'this was the correct approach I know it for sure' thing. Meant it more as a way to show that it should have been possible for her to keep gameplay design and stuff in a meaningful way. Try not to focus on that, it could derail things and stuff. Would be bad, etc).