Something worth looking into

[The Cape]

After watching Mango vs M2K at the end of Apex crews I realized that M2K powersheilded an F tilt at max range and then grabbed Falco (extended body box).

It might be worth finding any and all moves that have more than 6 frames of hitlag on block so that we can figure out all moves in the game that can be powersheild grabbed at range like that.

Thoughts?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Sorry about getting to this so late. I'd love for this to be worked on.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think it's also a question of how long the hurtbox stays extended too. The real reason why you can grab Ganon out of a lot of his moves is because of his extended arm/leg.

 

[The Cape]

Well when a move induces hitlag it freezes the victim and the attacker. However when the hitbox hits a powersheild the victim has no hitlag, but the attacker still does. That would leave the hitbox extended for the duration of the hitlag, plus its normal length.

So what we need to figure out is how long the hitbox is out, how much hitlag it makes, how much sheild stun it has on a powersheild, and then of course the time frame for the grab to come out.

That would allow you to find on a character to character basis when you can grab a move on a powersheild.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Sorry about getting to this so late. I'd love for this to be worked on.

I don't think there is that much point in doing this, almost everything has more than a -6 on block. We'd essentially be compiling a list on non disjointed moves on block

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Hitlag, not shield advantage.

 

[Pikabunz]

Power shielding doesn't cancel hitlag. A power shielded grab will come out the same frame as a normal shielded grab.

 

[The Cape]

Powersheilding cancels hitlag for the person sheilding only as far as I can recall.

If it doesnt, then what is the advantage to it?

 

[KayLo!]

Powersheilding cancels hitlag for the person sheilding only as far as I can recall.

If it doesnt, then what is the advantage to it?

^ This.

I remember you tried to explain the exact mechanics of pshielding to me before, Prime, and I didn't understand the advantage of doing it from your explanation. It sounded like a fancy shield with no benefits.

 

[EverAlert]

From what I understand:

- Reduced shield push
- Reduced shield stun lol i dumb
- Insta-dropping shield if you let go of shield before lag is over

Assuming what I'm posting here is correct, and also that hitlag is -not- reduced, I don't really see a point to this. Also, pretty much everything that does 3% or more has 6 frames of lag.

 

[Pikabunz]

Advantages of power shielding.
-Reduced shield push
-Cancels shield drop lag (You can already do this by grabbing/jumping out of shield)
-Shield strength doesn't drop

You still get shield stun and hitlag.

 

[GimR]

shield lag is still there

shield push and shield stun are gone. But that doesn't mean we can't still grab a lot of people


PS: Hey cape, did you discover wave dashing in Melee?

 

[The Cape]

Sheild stun is the same on powersheilding and regular sheilding. I know that much.

No I did not discover Melee, my old sig was talking about the bird, not me.

 

[GimR]

Okay, I must be getting terms mixed up. Shield lag is the frames where both the attacker and attackee are frozen correct?

Shield stun is where the attackee can't let go of his shield until its over but he can still jump, spot dodge, grab, and roll.

If I'm correct there's no shield stun after a power shield

 

[EverAlert]

sighhhhh

I just used the frame data code to test it freestyle. Basically, Ganon punches someone twice, they get shielded (shield is let go of immediately after contact both times), I compared normal shield vs power shield.

Reg. Shield: 17 frames of lag, followed by 11 frames before the shield disappears
Perfect Shield : 17 frames lag, plus 11 frames before disappearing

Results speak for themselves, situation resolved bishes.

 

[The Cape]

What about the hitlag though? The time frame in which the characters are frozen. Is it equivalent in both instances?

 

[EverAlert]

Reg. Shield: 17 frames of lag, followed by 11 frames before the shield disappears
Perfect Shield : 17 frames lag, plus 11 frames before disappearing

sighh

first one is hitlag, second is "hitstun" (I wasn't bothered separating the stun and the shield drop animation so they're both counted in the second number, but you can clearly see they're both identical)

 

[A2ZOMG]

So basically the only advantage to powershielding is being closer to your opponent.

But regardless there is a stupid number of attacks in this game you can shieldgrab with good or perfect timing due to hurtbox placement.

And honestly that's one reason why I think Ike is overrated.

 

[KayLo!]

Overrated or underrated?

Because by what you said, it sounds like you meant underrated. ;;

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ike is overrated. The insane defensive potential of shieldgrabbing technically ruins most Jab shenanigans in this game. It's not hard for Ganon to shieldgrab Ike at twice his normal grab range due to extended hurtbox placement on Ike's Jabs.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

No viability talking in here >:U

Save that for the BBR.

 

[Veril]

Shield drop lag CANNOT be canceled by grabbing (only jump)... silly k-prime... not that it matters because you can just not drop the shield and grab. The important thing is that you can attack OOS without the 7 frames of lag when you powershield. It vastly improves your OOS options.

Powershielding increases shield pushback for the attacker. Try powershielding Warlock Punch in B-, you'll see...

It also makes a cool sound.


I'm not sure how SSDI is affected by PSing, I used to think it was impossible but that is not the case. W/e the shield is broke as **** in brawl. Powershield is an extension of that broken quality.


A better list than the one proposed by Cape might be: what can't be shieldgrabbed (independent of spacing), and what outranges grabs before accounting for SSDI. If we can figure out the displacement from SSDI I could account for it easily.

BTW: x-max values for most grabs are already available in the data I uploaded a while back (ie value most closely approximating raw range), if you guys get me hurtbox data from tabuu I can get actual range and disjoint as per my post in the formula thread.

 

[Pikabunz]

Grabbing OOS is canceling shield drop lag to me.

 

[Veril]

god **** that is an adorable avatar!

If you're grabbing, you aren't shield dropping and thus aren't canceling shield drop lag. If you want to do an attack that isn't an OOS option you need to make the conscious decision NOT to grab, and suffer shield drop lag. Once you've made that decision (ie shieldstun and shield hitlag are over), and the shield is going down, you will not be able to initiate a grab for that 7 frames.


I've noticed that sometimes I can cancel the shield with an OOS option (jump) before the shield will disappear on its own... this is in frame advance. But usually those events occur at the same time. What causes the discrepency? I have no freakin clue.