Social Social Thread - Talk About Anything (You Are Allowed to Talk About)!

[Herbert Von Karajan]

yawn, karajan

we've already had this discussion. the gap between the top players and others in 64 is huge because the 64 scene is ****.

address the gap between
isai (plays less than once a week) / jouske (plays about once a week)
and
superboomfan

remember, japan has a super active online and console scene
peru has a console scene, where 1 city has over 30 players who have been playing for 10+ years and can take games off of isai, and superboomfan beats them

lets say 10,000 people join the 64 scene this year. Do you think that somehow isai and jouske would be less dominant?

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

2015: 10,000 people join competitive 64
2018: none of them are beating isai or jouske
hur dur top 64 players are harder to beat than top melee players because the 64 scene is larger

 

[Sedda]

@The Star King Sounds like you have a problem with Battlecow, not me.

Can't let that **** get to you when I say it because I'm not saying it to belittle anybody's side of the argument or get on anybody's bad side. You can't go ape**** every time I say something like that just because one dude used to say it to you on the internet. Re-read this page again and just consider that you're overracting over this a little.



@ Herbert Von Karajan , we already discussed all those exact points in detail a couple of months ago. It's obvious that you and I disagree, but there's no point in arguing about it over again. Just search the social thread a few pages back and you'll probably find a response to what you asked. you've said all you wanted to say and same goes with me. I just think that the 64 scene is severely underdeveloped and the top players would benefit from a better developed scene. It would push them to be better like in Melee, where the top players have to practice a lot. We never even see the top 64 players under the same roof ever.

edit- one of the sentences got deleted somehow

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

We never even see the top 64 players under the same roof ever.

Superboomfan lived with isai for a month
superboomfan lived in peru for a week, playing gerson, alvin, marka, tavo, papacho
superboomfan visited japan for a weekend, playing jouske, wario, and others

Isai visited peru for at least a week, playing gerson, alving, marka, tavo
Isai visited japan for a month, playing jouske and others

wtf more do you need

 

[Sedda]

yeah because that = all top players under one roof several times a year hur hur

when we get to see boom, isai, marka, alvin, jousuke, wario, whoever the **** else is considered top, playing together in the same tournament, then that's when I'll say that we're getting somewhere

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

yeah because that = all top players under one roof several times a year hur hur

when we get to see boom, isai, marka, alvin, jousuke, wario, whoever the **** else is considered top, playing together in the same tournament, then that's when I'll say that we're getting somewhere

spoiler alert:
J version jouske wins
U version isai wins

 

[Sedda]

i dont disagree with that, but that's not what we're talking about

in fact, if jouske isnt already better than isai, he will be eventually because Japan has a much better 64 scene than America, and the players jouske play against are on average much better than anyone isai plays here in the states.

i really don't know how you cant see that a more developed scene (up to a decade ahead) means that the skill is higher in melee.

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

in fact, if jouske isnt already better than isai, he will be eventually because Japan has a much better 64 scene than America, and the players jouske play against are on average much better than anyone isai plays here in the states.

hey we agree on something

jouske > isai
insane dedication > prodigy skillz
now kero can keep dreaming

either way i think by apex 2016 someone besides isai in north america will be beating boomfan UNLESS boom and isai start their every day online < 3 frame training again

 

[Sedda]

well if you agree with that then you agree that melee top players are more skilled, because that's practically my whole argument

pwn.

why dont you swap out one of the peruvians for bane to your japan trip?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

http://www.ssbwiki.com/KoRoBeNiKi You guys will probably like the edits I made to my 64 page, dat image (thanks Saske wut)

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

well if you agree with that then you agree that melee top players are more skilled, because that's practically my whole argument

no, everyone plays better opponents on average than isai cause isai doesnt play. i was solely agreeing that jouske > isai

why dont you swap out one of the peruvians for bane to your japan trip?

i told bane he isnt welcome until he goes to a tournament where i am at; im not travelling with someone ive never met

its at least $2000 to fly from lima to japan. its another 200 or 300 to fly from tacna to lima

 

[Han Solo]

Also everybody knows that Melee is more technical and that's not really the issue at hand. It sounds like Han Solo missed the point entirely and his post should probably be ignored.

Jab is bad on shield

 

[Chaostatic]

lets assume masked man was boom. boom doesnt play melee, shows up to some tournament and destroys everyone.

I'm not taking sides, but this is a weak argument. M2K doesn't play 64 and there was a while where he showed up to 64 tournaments and did the exact same thing.

JUST SAYING lol.

Oh and nice seeing you guys again! It's been a while.

 

[caneut]

yawn, karajan

we've already had this discussion. the gap between the top players and others in 64 is huge because the 64 scene is ****.
e

That's a horrible argument and you're wrong as usual.

 

[Sedda]

so youre saying that the 64 scene is somehow more developed than melee's scene cane?

 

[KeroKeroppi]

 

[Cobrevolution]

stef is doing an AMA on r/smashbros on wednesday

and i'm doing one on friday

should be interesting

 

[Herbert Von Karajan]

so youre saying that the 64 scene is somehow more developed than melee's scene cane?

No

Number of participants in a thing has nothing to do with how much the top person has mastered said thing.

 

[yOLORIN]

stef is doing an AMA on r/smashbros on wednesday

and i'm doing one on friday

should be interesting

I will do whatever it takes to sabotage your AMA

 

[Sedda]

No

Number of participants in a thing has nothing to do with how much the top person has mastered said thing.

i was asking caneUT

i know your stance on this, but caneut is difficult to pinpoint because he has trouble coming up with meaningful arguments. He just enjoys calling me out because he really likes me and wants to bang me

 

[KeroKeroppi]

the fox combo i just did was so ridiculous that it literally gave me a headache

 

[Olikus]

the fox combo i just did was so ridiculous that it literally gave me a headache

that bad huh?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

No

Number of participants in a thing has nothing to do with how much the top person has mastered said thing.

no, all that means that the game is bare. sure 64 is more developed, in terms of perfection, but melee has a much bigger field to develop.

 

[BananaBolts]

no, all that means that the game is bare. sure 64 is more developed, in terms of perfection, but melee has a much bigger field to develop.

There's not really piles of evidence to support that claim. I agree with you but it's a moot point if you can't validate it properly.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

There's not really piles of evidence to support that claim. I agree with you but it's a moot point if you can't validate it properly.

I would judge eventual depth by:

• Hand speed required for perfection/reaching said play and how close people are to said play.
• How many tecniques are required
• How much the metagame has developed. Is it now much faster? Is it now much slower?

In terms of speed:

Most top level melee players play between around 300 apm as the Spacies, not including DI or smash DI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXgpGBbh5r8&t=25s The absolute limits of hand-tech skill, until the guy behind Raphnet releases an adapter that shows controller input (it's being worked on)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFShSzgYsDA&feature=related A top player (as Falco) showcasing how much the game can be pushed.

http://smashboards.com/threads/apm-of-smashers-july-update-the-fastest-peach.234508/ A thread dedicated to APM of smashers, with most of these videos being back in 2009 when melee was developed.

In terms of the second, the fact that new things are still being discovered shows much how depth the game has.

In terms of the third, in a rather opposite trend as smash 64 (which IMO has much more air camping than it used to have,) melee is now just about completely about pressure and speed as well as reading opponents, outside of Jigglypuff. The reason why you haven't seen people dominate as much is due to the new techniques and the required speed.

There is a reason why there isn't a king of melee for a very long time, it takes a very fast APM, which is non-existent, to an extent, compared to 64. I would assume that there would be a lot more people close to Isai if more people played this game but simply there aren't. This game isn't big in comparison to melee. Our biggest US events are dwarfed by melee events back in 2004 up till last apex.

I am not saying that 64 isn't complex, it just happens to be less complex than melee, from both a technical standpoint as well as a perfection/play standpoint.

 

[Derek Bancarz]

my girlfriend is hotter than yours..

 

[AtotheZ]

my girlfriend is hotter than yours..

no she isn't

 

[BananaBolts]

I would judge eventual depth by:

• Hand speed required for perfection/reaching said play and how close people are to said play.
• How many tecniques are required
• How much the metagame has developed. Is it now much faster? Is it now much slower?

In terms of speed:

Most top level melee players play between around 300 apm as the Spacies, not including DI or smash DI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXgpGBbh5r8&t=25s The absolute limits of hand-tech skill, until the guy behind Raphnet releases an adapter that shows controller input (it's being worked on)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFShSzgYsDA&feature=related A top player (as Falco) showcasing how much the game can be pushed.

http://smashboards.com/threads/apm-of-smashers-july-update-the-fastest-peach.234508/ A thread dedicated to APM of smashers, with most of these videos being back in 2009 when melee was developed.

In terms of the second, the fact that new things are still being discovered shows much how depth the game has.

In terms of the third, in a rather opposite trend as smash 64 (which IMO has much more air camping than it used to have,) melee is now just about completely about pressure and speed as well as reading opponents, outside of Jigglypuff. The reason why you haven't seen people dominate as much is due to the new techniques and the required speed.

There is a reason why there isn't a king of melee for a very long time, it takes a very fast APM, which is non-existent, to an extent, compared to 64. I would assume that there would be a lot more people close to Isai if more people played this game but simply there aren't. This game isn't big in comparison to melee. Our biggest US events are dwarfed by melee events back in 2004 up till last apex.

I am not saying that 64 isn't complex, it just happens to be less complex than melee, from both a technical standpoint as well as a perfection/play standpoint.

I used to watch waaaaay more Melee than 64 so I already know 95% of this. I knew about the APM but I'd never seen the thread dedicated to it. I felt really slow in the grab game in Melee/PM when I first started getting into it. I kept down throwing(similar to f-throw in 64) as Falcon and then inputting my jump+aerial but I was getting frustrated because all I was getting was a jab or a tilt. Throw follow ups as Falcon are so much faster in 64.

Another thing to note: I think that 64 has more analog stick movement than Melee too. I might be wrong but a solid Melee player will resort to the c-stick for faster aerials and alternative DI. For this reason, I think that 64 has faster analog stick inputs.

64 also has a lot to offer to the metas of the other smash games too. I taught my PM friends how to pivot, edge cancel normal aerials (bunch of Ganon scrubs edge cancelling his down B as if it's complicated), and ledge hopping and stalling like a true 64 player would. I showed my friend that I could bair -> edgecancel -> bair -> reverse uair when I combo'd him the other day. I think that even though our physics engine and moves don't match, a lot of the approaches and combo ideas can carry over in some ways.

I may be a "scrub" for maining Falcon in 64 but I stick with him in PM. Those uair juggles -> knee+taunt combos are no joke. (Can't play Melee 'cause I'm too poor to buy it lololol)

Yo, Koro, my new GC controller will arrive at my house in a couple of weeks. I'm hyped for PM 3.5 + a new GC controller!

Spoiler

Yeah, I still play 64 too. I'll never give up on my newly-discovered dream to beat the snot out of Kero's main when he inevitably becomes the best smash player.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Most melee people do use c-stick quite often for aerial (myself included) so you might be right there.

I think the solo exceptions are maybe hax (to an extent) and Javi, who plays claw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MeVSjOSo64 for the vid)

 

[KeroKeroppi]

LOOOOL YOOOOOO

i gotta tell you guys this crazy **** that just happened

lol like wow

OK

so i'm at my friend's place last night

WAIT

TIME THE **** OUT

it's been a while since i've updated you guys on the life of kero the great

OK

i recently started playing poker right?

WOW HOLY **** I AM SUCH A ****ING GOD

like idk if my smash reading abilities transfer over or some **** but like

i've decided that after i become the best smash player in the world i'm also going to become the best poker player in the world

it's not often you stumble across things that catch your interest but wow i really like poker

like i don't think you guys realize how nasty i am

idk you'll see me winning mad money on tv one day bc like i said there's no way i'm NOT gonna become the best at this point

OK ALSO

I TRIED BEEF JERKY FOR THE FIRST TIME IN LIKE 10 YEARS THE OTHER DAY AND IT IS SO GOOD

i'm a huge ****ing fan

i wasn't expecting much but wow it exceeded my expectations by a long shot

granted i was kind of drunk and when i got it sober yesterday it wasn't nearly as good but still

beef jerky is good at that's the god damn truth

LASTLY

i've been kind of talking to this girl lately

that's where i was last night LOL like i'm not going off for no reason it does tie in

now that i think about it i guess i lied bc idk we're not really "friends" at this point

you know what i don't ****ing know

all i've gotta say is that if you think this will prevent me from railing your mom you massively underestimate me

OH AND BEFORE YOU ASK

she's not my cousin or my german teacher so **** you

altho i kind of wish she was my german teacher what

OK SO BACK TO THE STORY

i'm at her place last night right?

i get back to my place and i'm tired as a mother ******

naturally i went to bed, after all i am a human being (barely, i'm like 99 percent sure i'm a demigod or something) and i need sleep

yo actually

this post is really ****ing long already and i've got **** to do so i'm not gonna go into the story now

BUT STAY THE **** TUNED BC THE STORY IS GOOD

lol ok i''ll be back later

cashbah *******

 

[Shears]

So basically you got home and fell asleep and woke up to texts from her saying she wanted you to come back or to come over or something and she totally wants your D, but you once again didn't hook up because you didn't get top 8.

At this rate I don't think you're ever going to get around to banging my mom.

 

[Sedda]

we should design a poker-type game for 4 people (or else maybe it would take too long i think) with 10 stocks each instead of money, and the cards are characters. the players have to decide if they want to bet a certain amount of stocks if theyre confident in the character they got by playing a game/s (4/5 stock limit). maybe we could have stage cards too or something. i guess if it's multiple people it would have to be a FFA? idk how it would work.

shears you should work on the rules. make yourself useful

 

[Mr Bushido]

Shears = Sedda = Mixa = Sedda = Studstill 3.2 = Kahnu = Sangoku

 

[Shears]

My buddy is a professional poker player out in vegas and he says people that play competitive gaming turn into great poker players. The also use the term 'button mashing' for noobs that just bet recklessly and don't really know what they're doing.

As far as smash poker goes, I'm not really sure where to start and how it would differentiate from traditional poker other than replacing the face of the cards with characters in the game. Btw, a suit has 13 cards, but there are only 12 characters...

 

[Sedda]

the 13th could be "RANDOM"

 

[Shears]

Hmm, I'll think of something. I'll register the domain pokersmash.com or something soon. I kind of have an idea.

 

[Sedda]

COOL

dont be a ***** and take all the credit ty

 

[Shears]

I won't and I haven't ever done that. There is a credits page on supersmashbros64.com, http://www.supersmashbros64.com/credits.html, for anyone who has contributed ideas/work and wanted to be credited.

I've said this before, if anyone has contributed work/ideas that are used by the site and are not listed, let me know and names can be added.

 

[Sedda]

who's masahiro sakurai?

get that scrub off there

 

[Shears]

So I created the subdomain poker.supersmashbros64.com. When I get around to creating the game and app I'll let everyone know.