Social Social Thread - Talk About Anything (You Are Allowed to Talk About)!

[The Star King]

Regardless of who had more "skill" (no johns, etc.) if your optimal strategy is to play defensive, you shouldn't have to beat your opponent using a suboptimal strategy like approaching. That was my point.

Huh? If the optimal strategy is to play defensive, then play defensive.

I said "at top levels of play." Every time Isai plays someone who's OMGWTFBBQ good in a super-tryhard situation on hyrule, they camp the **** out of him. Every match we have of Gerson vs. super-good people turns into him camping the **** out of them. No one is saying that terrible players can beat great players with it; I'm only saying that it breaks the game.

Uh, if they don't consistently beat his good characters then so what that they try to camp him? How does it break the game if they don't even win?

"Threat"? Lol. I never said I could beat you or anyone by camping. I will try to demonstrate the borkitude of hyrule as much as possible when I'm forced to play there, though.

OK, but it kind of seems silly to me. You obviously don't want a campy metagame, so why contribute to the number of Hyrule campers just to convince people? That's like murdering people with a gun to show the public why we need more gun regulations (maybe not the best choice of analogy but ehhhhhh).

That's a reasonable position. But since (almost) everyone plays friendlies on DL anyways, and since we so rarely get "large" tournaments, and since the community is so small... I'm worried that you'll get your "evidence" in scattered bits and pieces for the rest of forever, interspersed with matches where people play super-aggressive just to be manly.

LOL that's actually pretty funny that you think that . In friendlies on Kaillera it's more like 60-40 Hyrule and Dreamland, and this is only recent - it used to be more like 90% Hyrule. You probably don't know this because from what I've seen you mostly host your own games and rarely join others, if at all.

Also @ Ocean- Lowering the stock count is not a fix. The match will still be 99% standing still and 1% tent ****. And no, camping's not fun for anyone. Believe me, it is not.

I've actually heard of a couple of people like Overswarm and Pink Shinobi who actually enjoy camping, but yeah, those people are very rare.

 

[asianaussie]

btw guys defensive + camping are not necessarily the same thing, you can be defensive on DL too

im not being convinced by your argument star king, which means battlecow definitely won't be lol

 

[The Star King]

What do you expect me to do? :/

All he's saying is that Gerson camped Isai oh noes.

And the middle paragraph of your last post was basically restating what I've already said.

Besides, he said my position was reasonable, so take that.

 

[asianaussie]

you obviously take the higher ground by telling him he has no conclusive evidence and get the judge to overrule his objections

if i restated what you said then i must be doing something wrong phoenix goddamn wright

 

[The Star King]

lol I didn't even mean to make an Ace Attorney reference by underlining "take that"

OK, but in this case it's the logical stance to take, because like you I said, it's unreasonable to ban something as deeply rooted in the community as Hyrule without a substantial amount of evidence.

 

[asianaussie]

im still laughing at his moveset in umvc3 so im picking up on these things a lot atm

i was gonna post something about the judge in the backroom tier list thread because you used the word 'object', but couldn't be bothered

 

[The Star King]

WOAH I didn't even know his moveset was revealed

Just watched the trailer OMG LOL I can't stop grinning now

 

[Battlecow]

Huh? If the optimal strategy is to play defensive, then play defensive.

If both players camp to the optimal degree, IMO the games will stall and never finish or else we institute a timer and then advantage=they approach=you **** them for approaching=first hit of the game wins.

Uh, if they don't consistently beat his good characters then so what that they try to camp him? How does it break the game if they don't even win?

Because Isai can play suboptimally and still win. As I've said, you shouldn't have to do that.

OK, but it kind of seems silly to me. You obviously don't want a campy metagame, so why contribute to the number of Hyrule campers just to convince people? That's like murdering people with a gun to show the public why we need more gun regulations (maybe not the best choice of analogy but ehhhhhh).

Boom did it. Convinced me, lol.

LOL that's actually pretty funny that you think that . In friendlies on Kaillera it's more like 60-40 Hyrule and Dreamland, and this is only recent - it used to be more like 90% Hyrule. You probably don't know this because from what I've seen you mostly host your own games and rarely join others, if at all.

?

Huh. Actually, I think it's more that everyone lets me pick stage.

I've actually heard of a couple of people like Overswarm and Pink Shinobi who actually enjoy camping, but yeah, those people are very rare.

Get your melee out of my 64. Actually, Isai said that he "can't wait to play his first 15-minute match" and stuff when I asked him about it, so maybe he enjoys it too. I find it more likely that he's just attached to Hyrule for sentimental reasons or whatever, though.

Could be that he just knows stuff that I don't and isn't telling, of course.

Also don't forget those disgusting European tourney matches.

 

[jimmyjoe]

Hyrule is the best stage in the game. Nobody that shouldn't beat me(skill wise) has ever taken a majority, or anywhere near that, of the matches we've played there because of camping. Can anyone say otherwise??

Gerson won 8 matches against Isai, and Boom beat Isai's low tiers at Genesis because they are both outstanding players, not because they camped. I think I watched every single one of those matches, and while I can appreciate an action packed match, I think these matches had a special kind of tension and beauty in a lot of the spacing. Sure sometimes it would seem like both players were saying, "Nah bro, you approach me!" But that was all part of the mindgame. Can you blame anyone for not approaching Isai anyways?

Dreamland is a gimpfest. Their is no open air without platforms and No walls to combo off.
Hyrule has a good mix of a lot of different stage elements, and usually takes more than a single hit to put someone over the edge of the stage from the opposite side of said stage. I like DL, don't get me wrong, but there is plenty to complain about there too.

As far as campers go, there is a simple, fail-proof method for getting an opponent to stop camping: Berate them for being a little pansy-***.

 

[Battlecow]

Berate them for being a little pansy-***

*sigh* You have to play to win. You can't regulate manliness.

Look, no one is saying that campers don't "deserve" to win. They do, because they're just doing the best they can with what they have. If what they have is ****- not their fault.

No one ever said that boom/Gerson weren't great or that they didn't deserve their wins. But camping sucks, and it breaks the game. What if, during that 13-minute match, both players decided that their best strategy was NEVER to approach? You get the neverending match.

Plus campfests suck.

Plus "no walls to combo off of" doesn't make the game noncompetitive. Get your tent combos on in friendlies if you want, but for god's sake don't force us all to undergo more 3-minute brain-deadening SHDL sessions.

 

[jimmyjoe]

*sigh* You have to play to win. You can't regulate manliness.

On console, in the same room, against another man, you bet your *** he's regulating his manliness

Plus campfests suck.

Agreed, but I prefer the occasional campfest and mostly epic smash matches, to Dreamland matches that are seemingly 87% edgeguard challenges.

For god's sake just leave Hyrule alone! I love Hyrule :')

 

[B Link]

Out of all of the mass amount of latest ssb vids that have been released, I've honestly been enjoying watching the dreamland matches more than the hyrule ones.

 

[Sangoku]

Hyrule is good if you know how to use him. Oh wait, that's Ness.

 

[Olikus]

Lets solve the problem. Hyrule cp. then its not neutral like it shouldnt be. And the ones that loves it can still play on it =)

 

[TANK64]

counterpick Yes.

So much to sig on this page :o

 

[Battlecow]

No, because we'll still get taken there half the time, and the camping will still occur.

Better than it being neutral though, honestly. And Congo's only neutral 'cause we needed a third stage to strike from, so if we CP'd that too, we'd at least be starting out on the right foot.

BTW, not that anyone cares, my offer to quit falcon only applies if the BR ruleset changes to ban hyrule in like the next couple months.

 

[Olikus]

Im okay with DL neutral and congo peach and hyrule cp.

 

[Sempiternity]

Has anybody here used the word "juxtapose" correctly yet?

Not calling anybody out

 

[ballin4life]

pretty sure my use was correct

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Hey guys what's going in here

 

[kys]

I've played extensively on Congo in the last couple of days, and I don't understand what the big deal is about the LoD. In fact, if your opponent isn't ********, the only chars in the game who are actually saved by ledge DI are Mario, Luigi, Pika, and Link. Everyone else in the cast is saved momentarily, but even a monkey with dementia could follow up and finish the kill. This applies even if your opponent manages to reverse DI, which puts the recovering character in enough hitstun for an easy follow-up.

Mario and Luigi have good enough recoveries where this lack of ledge DI on Congo doesn't affect them much. It's easy enough to sweetspot, come through the floor, use the higher ledge, or get in the barrel. Same deal with Pika. Link might be affected the most, but his recovery sucks so much anyways I don't think it's a big deal.

FREE YOURSELF FROM THE CAVE AND GET ON THE CONGO TRAIN WITH ME

 

[Sempiternity]

It's still too dark and the floor is a horrible, ugly color. That's more annoying than anything for me.

 

[DMoogle]

Let's suppose with equal probability the market either goes up 10% or down 5%, for an average return of 2.5%.

If you have $100,000 and get 2-1 leverage and the market returns 10%, then you get a return of ~18.5%. If the market goes down 5% then you get a return of ~-11.5%. So expected return with leverage would be 3.5%

Meanwhile if you get riskier securities (let's say Beta of 2), then if the market goes up you get a return of 20%, while if the market goes down you get a return of -10%, for an average return of 5%.

So it seems that the riskier securities have higher return and about equal variance (slightly better variance characteristics in our example).


That's basically what I was trying to get at, though I didn't know the right words to say it compactly.

I think there are reasons to get short debt in the current ultra low interest rate environment, but I don't feel like margin is really getting short debt since the money is under their control the whole time.

Like I said, I don't feel I'm generally experienced enough to choose riskier stocks that have a correlated higher EV, but you've made a good argument. So I guess, if nothing else, I should look to stocks with a higher Beta.

I talked to someone who also suggested leveraged index funds. It seems like the interest is essentially paid in the form of an expense ratio. However, from the limited amount I've read so far, the expense ratios are pretty high, especially considering you have to pay for all the money you put into the fund, not just the leveraged amount. Plus, the fact that it maintains the leverage ratio on a day-to-day basis has some serious disadvantages.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

So I got my new isp today guys. **** is too ****ing good.

3 frames on Galaxy **** yeah.

 

[The Star King]

@Battlecow If you're saying that someone shouln't have to play sub-optimally if it's optimal to play defensively, and you want to ban Hyrule because it's campy, then that can only logically mean, in your opinion, only stages where it's never optimal to play defensively should be legal, which is
A. Impossible in Smash 64
B. Bases on subjective tastes

The clarity of this post is just awful

 

[Sangoku]

So I got my new isp today guys. **** is too ****ing good.

3 frames on Galaxy **** yeah.

We should try p2p: Uni vs New ISP. Maybe we could get a low delay.

 

[The Star King]

Wow, I'm shocked that this ACTUALLY managed to get voted up to the front page of Pokememes

And here I thought my cause was a lost one. But no - there's hope

 

[Battlecow]

@Battlecow If you're saying that someone shouln't have to play sub-optimally if it's optimal to play defensively, and you want to ban Hyrule because it's campy, then that can only logically mean, in your opinion, only stages where it's never optimal to play defensively should be legal, which is
A. Impossible in Smash 64
B. Bases on subjective tastes

The clarity of this post is just awful

You're right, the post is unclear. But whatever it is that you're saying- What I'm saying is that a stage where both players' best move is not to attack breaks the game and should be banned. I think this is (maybe not to the extent I'm implying, but to some extent) the case for Hyrule, as we've seen in Isai vs. Boom, Isai vs. Gerson, and the OCC matches. I do not think that this is the case for dreamland. So we have a broken stage and a non-broken stage.

Capisce?

 

[asianaussie]

defensive play is still probably the optimal strategy on dreamland, and committing to an attack is just as punishable as it is elsewhere (probably moreso than on Congo)

 

[Battlecow]

Nah. You don't have super-defensible positions on DL like you do on Hyrule. In my experience, at least, you do get spacing battles in some very specific circumstances (like jiggs dittos or when there's two super-cautious players or whatever) on DL, but both players are probing and looking for openings the whole time, and not just sitting in the tent shooting lasers or doing nothing at all. There's never (or very rarely) an advantage to be found in straight-up camping on DL, even if "defensive" play happens.

 

[B Link]

upb stalling on the ledge w/pika is a pretty big advantage on dreamland

 

[Surri-Sama]

Nah. You don't have super-defensible positions on DL like you do on Hyrule. In my experience, at least, you do get spacing battles in some very specific circumstances (like jiggs dittos or when there's two super-cautious players or whatever) on DL, but both players are probing and looking for openings the whole time, and not just sitting in the tent shooting lasers or doing nothing at all. There's never (or very rarely) an advantage to be found in straight-up camping on DL, even if "defensive" play happens.

Everything you just said, is the exact same for Hyrule.

It maybe harder to see, but it's true.

 

[ballin4life]

I don't understand the "camping the tent" thing. You know if you hit them in there you can do a big tent combo too?

Maybe you can complain about a Fox that ONLY runs away and shoots lasers, but not if he's staying in one area.

 

[Battlecow]

I defined it specifically in contrast with Hyrule. There is a difference between hiding out in the tent and waiting for someone to approach you and cautiously going back and forth with spaced attacks on DL. Defensive play can occur on either stage; Camping only happens on Hyrule.

@ballin'- You saw Isai vs. Gerson. Gerson camped the tent. We're all aware that if Isai had hit him in there he could have done a big combo, but as I'm sure you know, it's really hard to approach someone in the tent because they've got an advantageous defensive position (it's hard to approach from above without being able to maneuver laterally).

 

[The Star King]

That's actually a pretty good argument, Battlecow, but I still think we need more evidence before making such a huge decision. But just for you, baby, I'll keep my eyes open

 

[malva00]

Camping only happens on Hyrule.

one- and two-sided camping can happen on dreamland too, but one-sided camping is more likely and usually doesn't last as long because someone usually gets hit sooner.

it's really hard to approach someone in the tent because they've got an advantageous defensive position

it depends on the matchup. if pikachu comes near the tent occupied by a camping link, does link have an advantageous defensive position? not really. the risk of getting pwned in the tent outweighs any uair advantage link may have against a GULLIBLE (XD) pikachu. Also, the person who is camping on hyrule is underneath the other player most of the time. in ssb, many characters have the advantage over another character when they are coming from above. For example, in kirby dittos on dreamland, the whole point is making sure you are on top the whole time.

if no character has a noticeable advantage, coming into the tent after someone has been camping it for a long time is no different then if both players entered the tent at the same time during the normal course of the battle. player A tries to hit player B and vice versa (in other words, they play ssb). if someone rushes in without thinking, they are more likely to be hit first and die from ssb's dangerous gameplay, tent or no tent.

people who think the tent is broken are either not very skilled, do not understand that one player can develop better tent skills than another player, do not understand that some aspects of ssb favor some characters over others, or something something else that does not make them look very smart!

disliking the tent is different from thinking it's broken.

 

[ballin4life]

I just found out MetaKnight got banned in the new Brawl ruleset. Interesting.

 

[asianaussie]

it's been featured for ages

minor controversy

only one major TO in australia is enforcing it iirc

 

[Glöwworm]

dem rare malva ssb insight posts

 

[The Star King]

I just found out MetaKnight got banned in the new Brawl ruleset. Interesting.

Haha ballin