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So...which of the pokemon does Kirby destroy the worst?
- Thread starter MK26
- Start date
Ryusuta
Smash Master
Surely you're not suggesting Kirby regularly try to fight Razor Leaf using his recovery move? 
Syrus_Draco
Smash Apprentice
Kirby tends to give me trouble with Squirtle since he has higher priority with aerials and more reach.
Ivysaur is not as trouble some but with the way Ivysaur moves and such it can be a bit of a challenge.
Charizard seems solid with minor trouble.
Ivysaur is not as trouble some but with the way Ivysaur moves and such it can be a bit of a challenge.
Charizard seems solid with minor trouble.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
I know I say this too often, but I will ALWAYS love those pictures (especially your avatar), Syrus!
Bestiarius
Smash Ace
Actually, Sir Orion, spamming his recovery move breaks through a Razor Leaf spam and is very hard to approach just because of the range of the hitbox, plus I think it's got a few Super Armor frames, to boot. It's insanely annoying, especially on Battlefield toward the edge where the platform would make approaching even moar annoying.
Zephramrill
Smash Lord
kirby can plank pretty well too..
MK26
Smash Master
Ok, update and stuff:
1) F-throw u-air is basically assured...SDI, especially with a heavy char like charizard, will do nothing. It's possible to SDI the u-air to avoid a regrab (aka Gonzo combo on fastfallers) or a utilt (Gonzo on midweights), but to think that you can Rock Smash out of the throw is absurd.
2) Agreements: the Squirtle matchup is closest to 55-45 Kirby's favour, and Kirby vs. Chari is neutral.
3) Disagreement: Ivysaur - I've seen everything from 70 in Kirby's favour to 60 in Ivy's. I personally believe it's clearly in Kirby's favour
-It's not like Ivysaur can outcamp Kirby - Razor Leaf is slow enough that you have ample time to ps or cancel the projectile with the blade of Final Cutter
-I can see Ivy being an anti-air machine, but to think that she outclasses Kirby in the air is ridiculous; also, if Ivy is ever in the air and above Kirby (whether Kirby is on the ground or between Ivy and the ground), you won't get away without getting hit
-The throw game advantage definitely goes to Kirby
-Ivy does have massive vertical kill power, but Kirby is no Samus when it comes to straight out kills
-If Ivy can't get back to the stage with his jump (and sometimes even if he can), it's gg next stock. Ivysaur should never be able to return to the stage ever if he's reliant on Vine Whip.
And to the person who said it'll be difficult for Kirby to gimp Ivy because he'll have trouble getting him to 40%:
4)
1) F-throw u-air is basically assured...SDI, especially with a heavy char like charizard, will do nothing. It's possible to SDI the u-air to avoid a regrab (aka Gonzo combo on fastfallers) or a utilt (Gonzo on midweights), but to think that you can Rock Smash out of the throw is absurd.
2) Agreements: the Squirtle matchup is closest to 55-45 Kirby's favour, and Kirby vs. Chari is neutral.
3) Disagreement: Ivysaur - I've seen everything from 70 in Kirby's favour to 60 in Ivy's. I personally believe it's clearly in Kirby's favour
-It's not like Ivysaur can outcamp Kirby - Razor Leaf is slow enough that you have ample time to ps or cancel the projectile with the blade of Final Cutter
-I can see Ivy being an anti-air machine, but to think that she outclasses Kirby in the air is ridiculous; also, if Ivy is ever in the air and above Kirby (whether Kirby is on the ground or between Ivy and the ground), you won't get away without getting hit
-The throw game advantage definitely goes to Kirby
-Ivy does have massive vertical kill power, but Kirby is no Samus when it comes to straight out kills
-If Ivy can't get back to the stage with his jump (and sometimes even if he can), it's gg next stock. Ivysaur should never be able to return to the stage ever if he's reliant on Vine Whip.
And to the person who said it'll be difficult for Kirby to gimp Ivy because he'll have trouble getting him to 40%:
4)
? Censorship?
PkTrainerCris
Smash Ace
I disagrre with ivy vs char neutral.. i think its more like 55-45 or 60-40 for zard
About ivy, yes she can be gimped, but thats with everybody, and she has her own stuff to prevent that (fight at the center of the stage, DI up, dair momentum stalling, razor leaf the edge, fair the edge and vinewhip the edge so both will die if you are not on your invicibility frames).. and the most important, she has a solid ground game to make up for that, which works pretty well against kirby because it outranges and stops his approaches, and the air she doesnt outclase kirby, but her range makes hitting her dificult to kirby
About ivy, yes she can be gimped, but thats with everybody, and she has her own stuff to prevent that (fight at the center of the stage, DI up, dair momentum stalling, razor leaf the edge, fair the edge and vinewhip the edge so both will die if you are not on your invicibility frames).. and the most important, she has a solid ground game to make up for that, which works pretty well against kirby because it outranges and stops his approaches, and the air she doesnt outclase kirby, but her range makes hitting her dificult to kirby
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
I merged a double post.
I pretty much ageree with the above write-up. Ivysaur has a disadvantage, but its much closer than Metaknight.
MK26
Smash Master
The underlined is basically entirely theorycraft.
Fight at the centre of the stage? Never gonna happen. You won't be able to camp for 2 minutes without moving, no matter how hard you try. And no matter how much stalling or DIing you do, Kirby can simply go out and d-air you.Vinewhipping the edge desnt work because
a) you die anyways
b) Kirby can recover if he isnt killed outright
c) if Kirby rolls when he sees Vine Whip start up, the attack comes out, the ledge isnt grabbed, and the Kirby escapes unscathed. It isn't even difficult to time.
I just don't see how Ivy's advantages outweight so many shortfalls.
O lol sorry.
Thanks for your opinion. 60-40 is what it's gonna be.
Bestiarius
Smash Ace
I agree with the 60-40 zard thing, but back to the Ivy, yeah, he's outclassed, but you were wrong on one point. Not huge, but you said if Ivy is in the air above Kirby, he's getting hit. Actually, dair has insane range, and good enough knockback to push Kirby away, depending on percentage, fatigue, and all that jazz. Not that big, just something that wasn't always accurate.
Retro Gaming
Black and White Thinking
Descending with Dair is not my ideal choice. Too much lag and pretty easy to avoid or shield. I'd rather fall while using Nair.
Miles.
Smash Champion
I actually like Dair for these reasons.
(realize that you use it sparingly so it is unexpected)
1) huge hitbox below you
2) it stalls your down ward momentum and thus throws them off a bit
3)it is decently strong with good damage as well
4)it actually has good priority
(realize that you use it sparingly so it is unexpected)
1) huge hitbox below you
2) it stalls your down ward momentum and thus throws them off a bit
3)it is decently strong with good damage as well
4)it actually has good priority
Bestiarius
Smash Ace
I said it wasn't big, but yeah, IRL, I agree with your take on dair. Still, I was just pointing out a SLIGHT inaccuracy, not suggesting a strategy.
Miles.
Smash Champion
my statement wasnt arguing with anyone
i was merely expressing a point of view
i was merely expressing a point of view
i have proof if you want to see
watch the whole vid i **** face too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf5imDTQ_r4#t=40s
Adriel
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 29, 2008
- Messages
- 338
Miles.
Smash Champion
broken.
Rocksmash moar.
Rocksmash moar.
MK26
Smash Master
The Kirby u-aired late and he didn't ff
And he sucked
Seriously...he failed to gimp the chari twice, and both times he overestimated his jump length and got edgeguarded/gimped <-- never supposed to happen.
But good job anyhow, nice work abusing his errors
And he sucked
Seriously...he failed to gimp the chari twice, and both times he overestimated his jump length and got edgeguarded/gimped <-- never supposed to happen.
But good job anyhow, nice work abusing his errors
Palpi
Smash Hero
I don't think he was arguing that the kirby and charizard was a definition of the match-up (heh) but the fact that he broke the combo with a rock smash and if you disagree with it "The Kirby u-aired late and didn't ff" test it, because I saw him uair but the rock smash out prioritizing.
Ryusuta
Smash Master
Yep... that's the golden rule of Brawl videos. It's always "The other guy just sucks."
u can be stubborn if you like but this is fact rock smash breaks the combo. also this is not a bad kirby player. he has broken top three in vegas weeklies twice playing kirby/shiek. try it out yourself. if not just take 15-20% next time you play a decent pt.
CoonTail
Smash Lord
Its so true this isnt the kirby sucking this is something I practice and have also talked about in the charizard tactical discussion along with the poke frame data threads. I call it the rock smash counter attack and this is exactly why rocksmash is amazing because its one of the few moves in the game that can be turned into the counter attack as seen in the vid. The key characteristics to tell its a counterattack outside of not even seeing the rock and the counter attack just going off leaving Zard undamaged, but also that the damage dealt is only 15-20% as noted and that the attack coming at Zard does not connect at all. Charizard counters are the best thing in the game and this is why I am starting to see it as an AT. It is such a nesecity to good zard players to be able to Zard counter attack like this all the time, so mayb this AT can play into turning the matchup against kirby into a bit better of one for PT.
Miles.
Smash Champion
AT?!?!
Lolz.
Lolz.
PkTrainerCris
Smash Ace
Icecoon is rgiht, this is what he calls, the "Charizard counter".... is not that charizard broke the rock, its that charizard held the rock and kirby broke it with the uair... if zeta says its reliable to stop the gonzo i believe him... but another people will need testing
hahah i <3 u steeler ^^
anyway as i see it
ivy disadvantage-all she really has is a good kill move in up air kirby is too light
squitle slight advantage-easily a match for kirby in the air doesn't kill kirby but racks enough damage that a d throw to ivy switch is what makes it winning match up imo
zard high advantage-zard can stop the gonzo, racks up a lot of damage and has several kill moves
remember opinion only