So now that the Mario series is up to 5 again...

[Ultinarok]

I wasn't suggesting Dimentio as a "Mario" representative, but as a "Paper Mario" representative, as people keep saying Paper Mario should be a character. But that's silly, because having duplicate characters is just generally a bit of a mood killer. It's like how the Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm games claim the roster has over 70 characters, then when you play the game, most of them are just duplicates of the same character with slightly different movesets. I've never seen Doctor Mario as a legit extra character in Melee, even if he takes a place on the roster. He's still Mario, both in "character" and in moveset. And while Paper Mario COULD be different from Mario, I don't think there is enough to work with that Mario doesn't already do. You'd get different specials, but that's about it. And even his specials would likely end up similar to other characters (his hammer is a common suggestion, but we already have Dedede and possibly Ice Climbers as hammer-based characters, and Kirby's side special uses a hammer).

I'm generally pretty leniant with accepting a character suggestion, but I do not agree with clone characters or duplicate characters (one character taking two separate slots, like Mario/Dr.Mario). It's just very uninspired. I know Sakurai won't do it though, as he said he wants to keep clones to a minimum and has said so since Brawl. Brawl was pretty good with this, and didn't really have any full on clones IMO.

I don't think Dimentio will get in, but I wouldn't be opposed to it. I think he's worthy. A lot of people like him, he was a memorable villain, and he would have much potential for a unique moveset centered around manipulating his surroundings. Him being in one game is not a solid enough argument to say he doesn't deserve a place at all.

So you're willing to forsake the main character of 4 extremely successful RPG's that happen to be a twist on the Mario series just because that main character is named Mario? I suppose we'll never see Toon Link again then....oh wait.

It doesn't matter if you don't enjoy two of the same person in the game. Paper Mario is the ONLY PM rep that would ever get in. The games are named after him for god's sake, and he's 100% viable as a unique character. You could also argue that he's not the same "Mario" we usually see, but one from a different dimension where everything is paper/flat. Toon Link is accepted to not be the same person as Link, because he's from a different era. They just share the "Link" legacy. Dr. Mario and Mario were literally the same character, I'll give you that, but Paper Mario and Mario really don't seem to be the same. Not to mention, they aren't even re-skins of each other. You could not include a PM costume for Mario because it wouldn't make any sense...they don't move, stand or attack the same way, ever.

You're of course more than welcome to want Dimentio, but to suggest that Paper Mario shouldn't get in because he's "uninspired" is simply biased.

 

[FooltheFlames]

Yes with Rosy the Mario franchise gets 5 and there are also many sub-Mario series characters in smash too.
But the question is, If Paper Mario and/or Geno are lucky to make it in, will they be considered Mario characters or will they get there own icons and be sub-Mario characters?

It's just that both Paper Mario and Geno have been on my personal wish list since before even Melee came out and with Rosalina's inclusion, as much as I do like her being a part of the roster, worries me about their chances.

 

[Sonicguy726]

Yes with Rosy the Mario franchise gets 5 and there are also many sub-Mario series characters in smash too.
But the question is, If Paper Mario and/or Geno are lucky to make it in, will they be considered Mario characters or will they get there own icons and be sub-Mario characters?

It's just that both Paper Mario and Geno have been on my personal wish list since before even Melee came out and with Rosalina's inclusion, as much as I do like her being a part of the roster, worries me about their chances.

I think paper mario could still be his own seperate franchise like DK, yoshi and wario but it's not that likely and I don't think logically Geno ever had a chance

 

[ChikoLad]

So you're willing to forsake the main character of 4 extremely successful RPG's that happen to be a twist on the Mario series just because that main character is named Mario? I suppose we'll never see Toon Link again then....oh wait.

It doesn't matter if you don't enjoy two of the same person in the game. Paper Mario is the ONLY PM rep that would ever get in. The games are named after him for god's sake, and he's 100% viable as a unique character. You could also argue that he's not the same "Mario" we usually see, but one from a different dimension where everything is paper/flat. Toon Link is accepted to not be the same person as Link, because he's from a different era. They just share the "Link" legacy. Dr. Mario and Mario were literally the same character, I'll give you that, but Paper Mario and Mario really don't seem to be the same. Not to mention, they aren't even re-skins of each other. You could not include a PM costume for Mario because it wouldn't make any sense...they don't move, stand or attack the same way, ever.

You're of course more than welcome to want Dimentio, but to suggest that Paper Mario shouldn't get in because he's "uninspired" is simply biased.

Can't be biased, because Dimentio is far from someone I'm dying to have in the game. I just presented him as an example of someone that would be better than Paper Mario. My point is less "Dimentio should be in Smash" and more "we don't need dupicates".

People keep saying he'd be unique, but I haven't seen anybody present me a unique moveset for him, just "yeah he'd use his hammer and Pixls and stuff". Just because he has lots of stuff to use in his own games, does not mean they could be applied in a unique way in Smash. RPGs and fighters are two very different types of games. Going by the logic people use for Paper Mario's moveset, we might as well make Goomba a playable character. Believe it or not, Goombas have used many different tools over the course of the Mario franchise. But Goomba would be a silly addition. Also, do note that a lot of the maguffins that Mario uses in the Paper Mario games to perform his abilities actually grant him abilities he uses in the main Mario games. For example, in Super Paper Mario, there is a Pixl that allows you to ground pound.

The game being named after him means nothing. Zelda was not the first representative of her series, for obvious reasons. Just because a character's name is on the box, or just because you play as them, does not mean they are the main character. A main character is the character the plot focuses around. This is why "The Legend of Zelda" is named as such. With this logic, Dimentio is closer to being the main character of Super Paper Mario. This is also why Rosalina is representing Mario Galaxy - with YOUR logic, Rosalina's reasoning for being in Smash to begin with can't exist. But even though the game was clearly titled "Super Mario Galaxy", and even though you played as Mario, Rosalina was still the true main character of that game, as the story was all about her, the Lumas, and her observatory, and the changes of the cosmos that she is responsible for. You could switch Mario with Sonic in this game, and plot wise, it would make no difference (provided Sonic keeps his mouth shut). You could also do this in the Paper Mario games.

Paper Mario and Mario are literally the same person. If you're claiming Paper Mario is a different person from another dimension, that's your head canon, not facts. In Paper Mario, Mario is still Luigi's brother, still living in the Mushroom Kingdom, still facing Bowser, and still saving Peach. Just like regular Mario. And a lot of the objects, enemies, and NPCs are the same. Yeah, the Paper Mario games add to that, but so does each new Mario platformer. There is no reason to believe this is a different universe or dimension. Paper Mario games are literally just unofficial successors to Super Mario RPG with a change in art style, because Square fell out with Nintendo, so if they wanted to make more Mario RPGs, they would have to re-brand them. Paper Mario is that re-branding of the "Super Mario RPG" line. He is the very same Mario we know from every other Mario game.

If we are talking personality, Mario is just as lacking in personality and is just as mute in the Paper Mario games as he is in the regular Mario games. He may be rendered in a cute and charming artstyle, but he still retains his "player avatar" role that he does in the main games, and doesn't really have any true impact on the games plot.

As for animating Paper Mario as a skin swap for Mario, it's entirely possible. You say they "never animate the same", but why is it that in the Paper Mario games, Mario has very similar animations to his normal games? He still has the iconic jump animation, his stomp animation, a climbing animation, etc. And in the Mario & Luigi RPGs, Mario actually uses similar tools to what he uses in Paper Mario, including the hammer everyone says would make him so unique and set apart from Mario. So yeah, there is no reason to believe Paper Mario can't be a skin swap for Mario. He does not need his own slot on the roster.

And in case people won't believe me without proof:

 

[Sonicguy726]

Can't be biased, because Dimentio is far from someone I'm dying to have in the game. I just presented him as an example of someone that would be better than Paper Mario. My point is less "Dimentio should be in Smash" and more "we don't need dupicates".

People keep saying he'd be unique, but I haven't seen anybody present me a unique moveset for him, just "yeah he'd use his hammer and Pixls and stuff". Just because he has lots of stuff to use in his own games, does not mean they could be applied in a unique way in Smash. RPGs and fighters are two very different types of games. Going by the logic people use for Paper Mario's moveset, we might as well make Goomba a playable character. Believe it or not, Goombas have used many different tools over the course of the Mario franchise. But Goomba would be a silly addition. Also, do note that a lot of the maguffins that Mario uses in the Paper Mario games to perform his abilities actually grant him abilities he uses in the main Mario games. For example, in Super Paper Mario, there is a Pixl that allows you to ground pound.

The game being named after him means nothing. Zelda was not the first representative of her series, for obvious reasons. Just because a character's name is on the box, or just because you play as them, does not mean they are the main character. A main character is the character the plot focuses around. This is why "The Legend of Zelda" is named as such. With this logic, Dimentio is closer to being the main character of Super Paper Mario. This is also why Rosalina is representing Mario Galaxy - with YOUR logic, Rosalina's reasoning for being in Smash to begin with can't exist. But even though the game was clearly titled "Super Mario Galaxy", and even though you played as Mario, Rosalina was still the true main character of that game, as the story was all about her, the Lumas, and her observatory, and the changes of the cosmos that she is responsible for. You could switch Mario with Sonic in this game, and plot wise, it would make no difference (provided Sonic keeps his mouth shut). You could also do this in the Paper Mario games.

Paper Mario and Mario are literally the same person. If you're claiming Paper Mario is a different person from another dimension, that's your head canon, not facts. In Paper Mario, Mario is still Luigi's brother, still living in the Mushroom Kingdom, still facing Bowser, and still saving Peach. Just like regular Mario. And a lot of the objects, enemies, and NPCs are the same. Yeah, the Paper Mario games add to that, but so does each new Mario platformer. There is no reason to believe this is a different universe or dimension. Paper Mario games are literally just unofficial successors to Super Mario RPG with a change in art style, because Square fell out with Nintendo, so if they wanted to make more Mario RPGs, they would have to re-brand them. Paper Mario is that re-branding of the "Super Mario RPG" line. He is the very same Mario we know from every other Mario game.

If we are talking personality, Mario is just as lacking in personality and is just as mute in the Paper Mario games as he is in the regular Mario games. He may be rendered in a cute and charming artstyle, but he still retains his "player avatar" role that he does in the main games, and doesn't really have any true impact on the games plot.

As for animating Paper Mario as a skin swap for Mario, it's entirely possible. You say they "never animate the same", but why is it that in the Paper Mario games, Mario has very similar animations to his normal games? He still has the iconic jump animation, his stomp animation, a climbing animation, etc. And in the Mario & Luigi RPGs, Mario actually uses similar tools to what he uses in Paper Mario, including the hammer everyone says would make him so unique and set apart from Mario. So yeah, there is no reason to believe Paper Mario can't be a skin swap for Mario. He does not need his own slot on the roster.

I haven't finished the paper mario games so I can't really come up with a moveset but there are plenty of things he could do

Anyone got a good moveset?

 

[Foxy K]

Can't be biased, because Dimentio is far from someone I'm dying to have in the game. I just presented him as an example of someone that would be better than Paper Mario. My point is less "Dimentio should be in Smash" and more "we don't need dupicates". and stuff

I agree with you, but Paper Mario as a costume wouldn't really work... He's not the same shape as Mario. He's a totally different art style. If they were going to put that in, they may as well make him a different character, even if he was a clone with slightly different stats.

 

[ChikoLad]

I just posted a picture that shows Mario and Paper Mario doing the EXACT same thing. Really, they can make him work as an alt skin. His shape is similar enough. I'm examining a Paper Mario sprite sheet right now (from TTYD), and am already thinking about recreating some of Mario's Smash animations for fun using Flash. If I can pull that off, the Smash dev team can.

 

[Ultinarok]

Can't be biased, because Dimentio is far from someone I'm dying to have in the game. I just presented him as an example of someone that would be better than Paper Mario. My point is less "Dimentio should be in Smash" and more "we don't need dupicates".

People keep saying he'd be unique, but I haven't seen anybody present me a unique moveset for him, just "yeah he'd use his hammer and Pixls and stuff". Just because he has lots of stuff to use in his own games, does not mean they could be applied in a unique way in Smash. RPGs and fighters are two very different types of games. Going by the logic people use for Paper Mario's moveset, we might as well make Goomba a playable character. Believe it or not, Goombas have used many different tools over the course of the Mario franchise. But Goomba would be a silly addition. Also, do note that a lot of the maguffins that Mario uses in the Paper Mario games to perform his abilities actually grant him abilities he uses in the main Mario games. For example, in Super Paper Mario, there is a Pixl that allows you to ground pound.

The game being named after him means nothing. Zelda was not the first representative of her series, for obvious reasons. Just because a character's name is on the box, or just because you play as them, does not mean they are the main character. A main character is the character the plot focuses around. This is why "The Legend of Zelda" is named as such. With this logic, Dimentio is closer to being the main character of Super Paper Mario. This is also why Rosalina is representing Mario Galaxy - with YOUR logic, Rosalina's reasoning for being in Smash to begin with can't exist. But even though the game was clearly titled "Super Mario Galaxy", and even though you played as Mario, Rosalina was still the true main character of that game, as the story was all about her, the Lumas, and her observatory, and the changes of the cosmos that she is responsible for. You could switch Mario with Sonic in this game, and plot wise, it would make no difference (provided Sonic keeps his mouth shut). You could also do this in the Paper Mario games.

Paper Mario and Mario are literally the same person. If you're claiming Paper Mario is a different person from another dimension, that's your head canon, not facts. In Paper Mario, Mario is still Luigi's brother, still living in the Mushroom Kingdom, still facing Bowser, and still saving Peach. Just like regular Mario. And a lot of the objects, enemies, and NPCs are the same. Yeah, the Paper Mario games add to that, but so does each new Mario platformer. There is no reason to believe this is a different universe or dimension. Paper Mario games are literally just unofficial successors to Super Mario RPG with a change in art style, because Square fell out with Nintendo, so if they wanted to make more Mario RPGs, they would have to re-brand them. Paper Mario is that re-branding of the "Super Mario RPG" line. He is the very same Mario we know from every other Mario game.

If we are talking personality, Mario is just as lacking in personality and is just as mute in the Paper Mario games as he is in the regular Mario games. He may be rendered in a cute and charming artstyle, but he still retains his "player avatar" role that he does in the main games, and doesn't really have any true impact on the games plot.

As for animating Paper Mario as a skin swap for Mario, it's entirely possible. You say they "never animate the same", but why is it that in the Paper Mario games, Mario has very similar animations to his normal games? He still has the iconic jump animation, his stomp animation, a climbing animation, etc. And in the Mario & Luigi RPGs, Mario actually uses similar tools to what he uses in Paper Mario, including the hammer everyone says would make him so unique and set apart from Mario. So yeah, there is no reason to believe Paper Mario can't be a skin swap for Mario. He does not need his own slot on the roster.

And in case people won't believe me without proof:

You pretty much missed the entire point I just said, misunderstood the whole idea behind the post, and then ranted about how Paper Mario is a bad choice. But all I'm seeing is "I don't want a character, so every reason he could be included is silly."

Whether you want him or not, Toon Link proves that Sakurai frankly does not care if two characters can be considered the same person, as long as each iteration of the character is important to the series in some way. Most people feel PM should be its own franchise now as a parallel to the Mario series, like Yoshi and Wario. If you want alternate movesets, just look at PM's dedicated thread. And the name point is simply to illustrate that if PM is its own series, not including Paper Mario as its rep is absolutely absurd. HE'S THE MAIN CHARACTER, THE TITLE CHARACTER, AND HAS THE STAR ROLE IN ALL 4 GAMES. Its fine if you don't want "duplicate" characters, but your reasoning is bias, plain and simple. You don't want him because YOU think duplicate characters are a waste of time. The "toon" zelda games also use a different art style. And guess who's a two-time vet despite being a semi-clone?

Honestly, Dimentio is fine, but just accept that PM is a better candidate at least in the eyes of pretty much everyone else.

 

[ChikoLad]

I love when people damage control.

The point of your post was to state why Paper Mario is a fine candidate for a full on slot on the roster. Mine was a counter to that. In fact, you failed to counter any point I just made, including ignoring the picture I posted, which proves that Paper Mario can animate just like regular Mario. I don't hate Paper Mario. Super Paper Mario was one of my favourite games on the Wii. I just don't think Paper Mario (the "character") does not need his own slot on the roster. I think making him an alt skin would be just fine. The entire point of an alt skin is to represent a character in an alternative form, that possibly represents a different version of the character. Look at Wario in Brawl. We have Warioware Wario, and Platformer Wario under ONE slot, via alt skins. We have two completely different series' represented through one character via alternate skins. Why can't Super Mario/Paper Mario be the same?

Sakurai frankly does not care if two characters can be considered the same person

Toon Link IS NOT the same person as Twilight Princess Link, and anybody who thinks so is delusional. Both of these Links are different ages, different art styles, live in a different time period, have different personalities, have different friends and family, have different skills, used different items in their respective quests, had a different relationship to their respective Princess Zelda, and so on and so forth. All you are making me think by making such a statement is that you have not played both of their respective games. Yes, Toon Link was a semi-clone in Brawl, but he felt entirely different in terms of his character portrayal, and successfully represented a different series than TP Link (although the Toon Link in Smash is Wind Waker Link, he does by virtue of his art style, represent Minish Cap, Phantom Hourglass, and other games that feature similarly designed Links). While I do agree that it would be nice if Toon Link had more moves that uniquely represent Wind Waker, he is still a completely different character in terms of who he is.

Paper Mario is literally JUST a different art style. He is the same character besides that. Even within the game's dialogue or any profile pages for the character, he is still referred to as "Mario", not "Paper Mario". Mario technically already represents the Paper Mario franchise as a result. It's like the difference between Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic. Different art style, same character. But just like how I think Classic Sonic would be an awesome alt skin for Sonic, I think Paper Mario would be an awesome alt skin for Mario. Just not worthy of his own slot on the roster.

HE'S THE MAIN CHARACTER, THE TITLE CHARACTER, AND HAS THE STAR ROLE IN ALL 4 GAMES.

He is not the star, he is the player avatar. If you ask me what I remember being the main plot of Super Paper Mario, I remember it being about Count Bleck trying to cause the end of the world after having grown bitter when his lover left him. Said lover turned out to be Tippi. I know there was more to it, but notice how irrelevant Mario is to the plot? Yeah, he runs around doing the work, but only as an avatar for the player. As I said, he could be switched with anyone else. In fact, Super Paper Mario actually let you play as other characters. Once I met Peach, Bowser, and Luigi, I could play as them primarily if I wanted to. And THEY actually had distinguished personalities and dialogue, unlike Mario.

Honestly, Dimentio is fine, but just accept that PM is a better candidate at least in the eyes of pretty much everyone else.

If you're the representative of "everyone", and their opinions and arguments match yours, then "everyone" is making very shallow arguments to support Paper Mario as a full on character. Because you have not countered a single point I made. Tell me again how I'm the biased one, when I am actually researching facts to back up my points (including Paper Mario's sprite sheet), while you (or "everyone", apparently) are just making statements without actually researching what you mean (I could point out a few words you are using VERY incorrectly, such as "franchise", but I don't want to make this an English lesson).

 

[S_B]

Smash had 2 Mario characters out of 12 characters... 16%
Melee had 5 Mario characters out of 25 characters... 20%
Brawl had 4 Mario characters out of 35 characters... 11%

Currently, SSB4 has 5 Mario characters out of 22 confirmed characters... 23%

If/when SSB4 gets 5 Mario characters out of 45 characters... 11%
If/when SSB4 gets 5 Mario characters out of 50 characters... 10%
If/when SSB4 gets 6 Mario characters out of 45 characters... 13%
If/when SSB4 gets 6 Mario characters out of 50 characters... 12%

Face it, Mario (and Pokemon) will always have more. It is better to accept that fact than to challenge it and end up disappointed/angry when it happens again.

Oh, don't worry: I fully expect the final roster to be utterly disappointing and for the game to be a buggy, unbalanced mess like Brawl was in which we're lucky if even 5 characters are viable in tournaments.

I'm just saying that it'd be nice to see more franchises represented instead of more characters from franchises that are already overrepresented.

Look at it this way: every additional Mario/Poke/Zelda character is one more slot that could've gone to a franchise that was a part of Nintendo's history and yet isn't being represented.

 

[Sonicguy726]

Oh, don't worry: I fully expect the final roster to be utterly disappointing and for the game to be a buggy, unbalanced mess like Brawl was in which we're lucky if even 5 characters are viable in tournaments.

I'm just saying that it'd be nice to see more franchises represented instead of more characters from franchises that are already overrepresented.

Look at it this way: every additional Mario/Poke/Zelda character is one more slot that could've gone to a franchise that was a part of Nintendo's history and yet isn't being represented.

5 characters out of a 45-50 is fine for nintendo's flagship series and especially a character like rosalina who offers something unique while someone like chrom or lucina give FE more representation but doesn't really bring anything new to the table
And would you like to elaborate on why you think it's a buggy unbalanced mess cause you just sound like an asshole who thinks that melee is superior to brawl in every way and that brawl is the worst game ever. Alot of brawls newcomers are viable, olimar, meta knight, dedede, diddy kong and so many others are great characters to play as

 

[S_B]

5 characters out of a 45-50 is fine for nintendo's flagship series and especially a character like rosalina who offers something unique while someone like chrom or lucina give FE more representation but doesn't really bring anything new to the table

1. We have no proof that Rosalina will offer anything "new and unique" and we won't until someone actually plays SSB4 and reports back here.

2. FE doesn't need more representation, though that doesn't mean different FE characters won't bring something unique to the table (Ike and Marth are nothing alike, for example).

3. I'm less worried about characters being somewhat similar and more worried that a lot of great potential character choices will be passed over yet again (though I fully expect that's what's going to happen).

 

[Sonicguy726]

1. We have no proof that Rosalina will offer anything "new and unique" and we won't until someone actually plays SSB4 and reports back here.

2. FE doesn't need more representation, though that doesn't mean different FE characters won't bring something unique to the table (Ike and Marth are nothing alike, for example).

3. I'm less worried about characters being somewhat similar and more worried that a lot of great potential character choices will be passed over yet again (though I fully expect that's what's going to happen).

1. How does she not offer anything new, the luma anyone? totally not unique
2. Fire emblem is getting bigger as a franchise and actually deserves another character

 

[ChikoLad]

Rosalina & Luma fall under the puppeteer/puppet character archetype in fighters. This is something we have never seen before in a Smash game, and even compared to characters of the same archetype from other fighters, the way Rosalina & Luma are handled is really unique. So yes, Rosalina is a unique, worthwhile addition. The footage we have of her so far displayed how unique she is perfectly well, and Sakurai's favouring to posting lots of pictures of her has given us even more insight as to how she handles. She is turning out to be the most unique Smash fighter yet, and possibly one of the most complex.

Plus she's such a queen, and I'm happy as long as she is showing up in games. :V

There is also no reason to believe the character roster will be lackluster. So far, it's looking awesome (Mega Man being a huge help there, though Rosalina was as high as him on my personal wishlist, and along with Villager and Wii Fit Trainer, she's been well received). And Brawl's roster was the best in the series if we are talking diversity. Brawl being a less competitive game than Melee is not the result of the roster, but the result of the game's core mechanics. Project M proves this.

 

[S_B]

1. How does she not offer anything new, the luma anyone? totally not unique

For all we know, she could play like Olimar with one large Pikmin. I'm hoping she doesn't, but again we won't KNOW this kind of thing until people can actually demo the game (probably at this E3 or whatever they're calling it now).

2. Fire emblem is getting bigger as a franchise and actually deserves another character

The size of a franchise should not determine how represented it is. By that logic, ROB and Ness should've never been included in the roster and it should instead be 50% pokemon.

FE's setup right now is perfect: Marth is a constant because he was the first FE lord, and the "current" FE lord is the 2nd FE character. Any more is overkill.

Rosalina & Luma fall under the puppeteer/puppet character archetype in fighters. This is something we have never seen before in a Smash game, and even compared to characters of the same archetype from other fighters, the way Rosalina & Luma are handled is really unique. So yes, Rosalina is a unique, worthwhile addition. The footage we have of her so far displayed how unique she is perfectly well, and Sakurai's favouring to posting lots of pictures of her has given us even more insight as to how she handles. She is turning out to be the most unique Smash fighter yet, and possibly one of the most complex.

Olimar and Ice Climbers both have "puppets" already. How can you say we've never seen it?

For god's sake, WAIT until we've actually gotten some info by people who have PLAYED the game before we decide anything. Until someone has played the game and has posted here about it, everything about how a character plays is 100% speculation.

 

[Louie G.]

I'm a little late to the party, but here's how I feel about the matter.

Mario already has 5 reps, Pokémon is extremely likely to get 5 reps (Brawl + Mewtwo), and Zelda is probably going to get 5 reps as well, although I am counting Sheik as a separate character (not as a slot, but she does in fact have a unique moveset).

 

[ChikoLad]

Olimar and Ice Climbers both have "puppets" already. How can you say we've never seen it?

For god's sake, WAIT until we've actually gotten some info by people who have PLAYED the game before we decide anything. Until someone has played the game and has posted here about it, everything about how a character plays is 100% speculation.

Ice Climbers are a co-ordinative team. Not a puppet/puppeteer combo. The second Ice Climber merely mimics you to enhance your damage output. De-syncing is an exploit in their programming, and does not count as puppeteering, as neither of the Ice Climbers are controlling each other. Sakurai has stated that the Ice Climbers playstyle represents the concept of two people being so deeply bonded on a spiritual level, that they can have near perfect co-ordination. They can match each others movements without communicating out loud, almost as if by some form of unconscious telepathy. This is a very Japanese ideology.

Olimar literally uses the Pikmin as weapons. They are not puppets, they are ammo. He literally plucks them out of the ground without their say so, and flings them at people.

The Luma only appears if Rosalina summons it, it only attacks if Rosalina gestures with her wand that it should do so, they are designed to be able to actively take separate parts of the arena which is a defining trait of puppet/puppeteer teams, and Rosalina can make the Luma fight at a distance from her or fight close by her, even watching her back. These things were all very clearly demonstrated in her trailer, and they are things we have not seen.

And even beyond Luma, no other character can attract and deactivate items like she can, and her Launch Star opens some unique get away options, as it essentially works like a cannon.

I am not speculating here, the trailer was very clear on how she works, and Sakurai has almost completely filled in any blanks that may have existed through subsequent screenshots and his comments on them. Rosalina is objectively one of the most unique Smash Bros characters, and to think otherwise is to be delusional and in irrational denial.

 

[S_B]

Rosalina is objectively one of the most unique Smash Bros characters, and to think otherwise is to be delusional and in irrational denial.

To believe it only once you've played it for yourself is neither delusional nor irrational. It is THE soundest course of action. I'm not trying to be obstinate, here, but until I get a feel for how she plays MYSELF, I'm not going to consider the matter closed (though I will listen to the impressions of others who have played the game).

Furthermore, this speaks nothing, and I mean NOTHING, to how Rosalina is going to perform in any kind of competitive scene. For all we know, Luma may wind up being like Zelda: rarely seen in any kind of competitive play (her only good move being "down+B", as people have said).

But this is drifting horribly from the original topic.

On topic: Rosalina could've been any number of characters from other franchises that control a "puppet": Ashley and her shapeshifting familiar (can't remember his name), Professor Layton and Luke, Alex Roivas and a summoned trapper, etc.

I just hope this is the last new Mario character we've seen...

 

[C3CC]

While I agree that Paper Mario and Mario ARE the same character, I think Paper Mario deserves to have his own slot because he could be a completely different fighter. There you have Link and Toon Link, who are nothing more than different iterations of the same character, and look, one is a semi-clone of the other. Now THAT'S bad, and look, they have appeared together in two differenet Smash Bros. games so far.

I think Paper Mario could have a moveset based on all of his appearances, and not just his most recent one, which is Sticker Star (awful game, by the way). I think he could be the only non-winged character able to glide if he becomes an airplane like in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door. He could have the Star Beam (or the Peach Beam) from the original Paper Mario for his Final Smash. He could have the Tornado Jump from both Paper Mario and Thousand-Year Door as either his Up Special or Down Special. There are many options. Just because Mario and Paper Mario are the same character in different graphic styles doesn't mean Paper Mario doesn't deserve his spot; as long as he's different, he should be more than welcome.

That being said, I don't have an opinion on whether he should represent his own series or not. I'd be fine with either of them, actually.

 

[NintenRob]

If I was in charge I would cut pkmn Trainer and add Kalos Trainer along with Blaziken
I would also keep Sheik and add Tingle because getting he's own game is kinda a big deal for a series like zelda.

 

[Reila]

i truly don't think that Zelda needs any more. the Triforce is all we need(Link, Zelda, Ganondorf) and Toon Link is just nice to have. while Pokemon doesn't really need more than 4(or 6, if you're getting technical) i think Pikachu, Jigglypuff, PT, and Mewtwo is the perfect representation. yes, they're all Gen I, but they represent the core of Pokemon. altho, it's most likely Pokemon will go to 5, adding Mewtwo to the Brawl roster of Pokemon. i don't see any other Pokemon that's popular enough for them to add, really.

No, it is actually far from perfect. The perfect representation of the Pokémon series would be one character of each generation, like this:

Gen I/II: Pokémon Trainer (Red appears in both generations).
Gen III: Gardevoir? I dunoo
Gen IV: Lucario
Gen V: Zoroark, Genesect or maybe N.
Gen VI: Mewtwo. Yes, it is a Gen I Pokémon, as well as the poster boy of mega evolutions and the only one to get two.

That would be way closer to a perfect representation than what we have now.

Anyway, the franchises I think could get the most reps are Mario (obviously, but I believe 5 is enough), Pokémon (given the popularity and the massive amount of characters, I could see it getting more than 5 reps) and Donkey Kong (There are already two and both Dixie and K. Rool deserve to be in Smash). Besides that, they should focus on giving more reps for underrepresented franchises, like Metroid and Yoshi, as well as bring more retro/forgotten/not-so-popular characters to smash, like Takamaru, Little Mac, etc.

 

[Dropkick JD]

"Toon Link and Link are different characters! DIFFERENT AGES, DIFFERENT STYLE, OTHER ORIGINS. " Oh, for ****'s sake.

Okay, see. Here's the thing. I could just as easily argue your points. In Paper Mario, he lives in a different house, is friends with some Goombas, uses his hammer a lot more than other games [Yeah, I could find some picture of Link, Toon Link, and different Links doing the same move too. It's a moot point.], can do multiple jumps on enemies head with different boots, he might be a different age, he looks a lot different. Yeah, Paper Mario and Mario are two very different things. There's a ton more reasons what I could go over.

Let me just try to make this easy before I go onto a full in-depth move set that would be past different from Mario. He WOULD be unique, and it would vary the playing field. Can you not, right now, comprehend how a character made of paper and is set to 2-D movements with RPG elements could not have a totally unique move set?

I just want to get that clear to the one poster. Truly, I wasn't too fond about Rosalina making it in. Wasn't against it, I just didn't care either way. Would've preferred a lot more over her, but I'm growing fond of the character. Can't wait to see how she plays out.

But my question for the one poster, you SURELY can't come up in your mind a unique play style for Paper Mario? If you can't, I will make it clear for you. Don't worry. But I'm attempting to save both of us some time here.

 

[Foxy K]

No, it is actually far from perfect. The perfect representation of the Pokémon series would be one character of each generation, like this:

Gen I/II: Pokémon Trainer (Red appears in both generations).
Gen III: Gardevoir? I dunoo
Gen IV: Lucario
Gen V: Zoroark, Genesect or maybe N.
Gen VI: Mewtwo. Yes, it is a Gen I Pokémon, as well as the poster boy of mega evolutions and the only one to get two.

That would be way closer to a perfect representation than what we have now.

You left out Pikachu, Jiggs, no one gives a crap about Gardevoir, Zoroark, or Genesect, or N for that matter, and Charizard also got 2 mega evolutions. Pikachu and Lucario are both in for sure, I would sure hope they keep Jiggs (but who knows), and that leaves about 2 spots. Mewtwo, based on popularity and renewed presence in XY, will probably get one of those spots. They may as well keep Pokemon Trainer for Charizard and brevity, and the Trainer himself is so few polygons they can make alternate costumes for at least gens 2, 5, and 6, what with the jacket-and-baseball cap look of them.

My main point is that your list is awful, though.

 

[Dropkick JD]

You left out Pikachu, Jiggs, no one gives a crap about Gardevoir, Zoroark, or Genesect, or N for that matter, and Charizard also got 2 mega evolutions. Pikachu and Lucario are both in for sure, I would sure hope they keep Jiggs (but who knows), and that leaves about 2 spots. Mewtwo, based on popularity and renewed presence in XY, will probably get one of those spots. They may as well keep Pokemon Trainer for Charizard and brevity, and the Trainer himself is so few polygons they can make alternate costumes for at least gens 2, 5, and 6, what with the jacket-and-baseball cap look of them.

My main point is that your list is awful, though.

"Jiggs"
Jigglypuff is awesome, but isn't it about time to move on?

I think Gardevoir would be more relevant now than Jiggs.

 

[Foxy K]

"Jiggs"
Jigglypuff is awesome, but isn't it about time to move on?

I think Gardevoir would be more relevant now than Jiggs.

I don't know, it might be. But she's been in Smash since the first, when even Mewtwo has only made it into one, despite arguably being more popular. Two things: The Japanese LOVE Jigglypuff and she's easy to animate (I would guess).

No one gives a **** about Gardevoir.* The 3rd gen, despite all its awesomeness (See again- my favorite), was pretty forgettable. I'd love to see Pichu come back to represent Gen 2 (and I don't know, babies), but I'm more realistic than that.

*I'm aware she got a mega evolution. So did Ampharos. And Abomasnow. "Abomasnow who?" Exactly.

 

[Dropkick JD]

I don't know, it might be. But she's been in Smash since the first, when even Mewtwo has only made it into one, despite arguably being more popular. Two things: The Japanese LOVE Jigglypuff and she's easy to animate (I would guess).

No one gives a **** about Gardevoir.* The 3rd gen, despite all its awesomeness (See again- my favorite), was pretty forgettable. I'd love to see Pichu come back to represent Gen 2 (and I don't know, babies), but I'm more realistic than that.

*I'm aware she got a mega evolution. So did Ampharos. And Abomasnow. "Abomasnow who?" Exactly.

But the thing is, gamers do care about Gardevoir. I'm going to word it like this.

A casual gamer probably wouldn't give a **** regardless if we got Jigglypuff or Gardevoir. I know my friends love Mewtwo, hell I miss Mewtwo as well. But I still feel subbing Jigglypuff for something new this year would only benefit more.

I think the only Pokemon that really consistently needs to be in is Pikachu. Wouldn't mind a new two for each gen each year. I'd say Mewtwo, but they killed that idea.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

The only franchise I'd like to see bumped to five slots is pokemon. (with Mewtwos addition)

The Zelda series feels complete to me, all the heavy hitters are present. As much as I like Midna and Ghirahim, adding one of them would be like adding a 5th wheel on a car. Awkward and not really necessary.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

I think because of Rosalina & Luma's inclusion, the ratio of characters may change.

Zelda gets a newcomer.
Pokemon gets Mewtwo.
Ice Climbers gets a representative too.

 

[Shalashaska]

Ice Climbers gets a representative too.

Now, now, let's not start a Topi vs. Polar Bear war on here.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

At this point, I only see Pokémon getting such treatment.

 

[Floor]

No... Melee had 7 mario characters and Brawl had exactly the same 7 + 1 derivation of Mario character game and if we continue to think about relations of characters we see that a total of 12 of Brawl characters are related to mario somehow.
Rosalina just proof that they dont care to add even more characters of already well represented franchises.

Brawl only had 4. Wario, Yoshi, Donkey Kong, and any other semi-mario characters are not officaly mario characters. They are categorized in more specific titles, like "Yoshi's Island". Although, yes, they are mario characters, they are not OFFICALY mario, as their emblem is different.

Lucario needs to go. He's two Gens old, from a Gen that's generally considered the worst of the worst, and really has no relevance beyond getting a Mega Evolution. Mewtwo has gotten a movie, tons of support from the Pokemon Company (he's practically the "cool" face of Pokemon these days, with Pikachu being the "cute" face), TWO Mega Evolutions, and is generally considered the most powerful Pokemon.

In fact, he is the most powerful Pokemon. Mega Mewtwo X and Y have the highest base stat total of all Pokemon.

Lucario is just as important as Mewtwo. Lucario thankfully stayed, and I don't care much about Mewtwo. Lucario got a movie. Lucario got a mega evolution, and the fact that mewtwo got two is complete bull crap and it ruined everything. He has two different versions of the same evolution though. It's arguable weather or not you want to count that as two. Lucario has gotten a lot more support from pokemon(He is now in two ssb games). I'd actually say he has gotten more support. The "cool" face of pokemon changes from generation to generation. It is currently Xernes and Yvelta (Not going to try with the spellings).
Lucario is not too old, mewtwo is FIVE generations old so your first argument is invalid.
It is not a fair statment to say which region is best and worst. That is entirely opinionated. In fact, this poll I found states the opposite.
http://www.pokemonreborn.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5720

 

[*Risen*]

Fire Emblem is going to be capped at three. With SO many relevant characters from FE13 (Marth isn't really in the game), There is bound to be more than one Awakening-specific character.

 

[Floor]

@ S_B

2. Fire emblem is getting bigger as a franchise and actually deserves another character
Click to expand...
The size of a franchise should not determine how represented it is. By that logic, ROB and Ness should've never been included in the roster and it should instead be 50% pokemon.

FE's setup right now is perfect: Marth is a constant because he was the first FE lord, and the "current" FE lord is the 2nd FE character. Any more is overkill.

The size doesn't matter so much as popularity,I'll give you that, but the second statment I disagree with. Marth is the first Lord in the Japanesse series, yes, but you clearly do not know anything about FE. Ike (the 2nd FE character you are refering to) was the Lord immediatly before Marth in the merican series. The first English FE Lord was Lyn, Eliwood, and Hector. The current lord is Chrom, not Ike.
"Any more is overkill"-- That is opinionated, but as you clearly do not know anything about the franchise, that statement is unfair to make. FE is deserving for one more(Chrom). any more after three is unlikely,but imagine the possibilities...

 

[S_B]

The size doesn't matter so much as popularity,I'll give you that, but the second statment I disagree with. Marth is the first Lord in the Japanesse series, yes, but you clearly do not know anything about FE. Ike (the 2nd FE character you are refering to) was the Lord immediatly before Marth in the merican series. The first English FE Lord was Lyn, Eliwood, and Hector. The current lord is Chrom, not Ike.
"Any more is overkill"-- That is opinionated, but as you clearly do not know anything about the franchise, that statement is unfair to make. FE is deserving for one more(Chrom). any more after three is unlikely,but imagine the possibilities...

1. The English FE lord at the time of SSBB's release was Ike, hence his inclusion.

2. It'll likely be Chrom for SSB4, unless they decide that the next FE lord will be in instead (who may be closer to the release of the next FE game).

3. I was playing fan translated FE ROMs and watching the FE anime long before FE became popular.

4. This is not "opinion", it's precedent. Roy didn't make it into Brawl but Marth remained. I expect Ike to not make it into SSB4 in the same fashion.

Please don't let your love of a certain franchise or character blind you to reason.

I love Eternal Darkness, but I'm not holding out hope for Alex Roivas because I know better.

 

[Floor]

1. The English FE lord at the time of SSBB's release was Ike, hence his inclusion.

2. It'll likely be Chrom for SSB4, unless they decide that the next FE lord will be in instead (who may be closer to the release of the next FE game).

3. I was playing fan translated FE ROMs and watching the FE anime long before FE became popular.

4. This is not "opinion", it's precedent. Roy didn't make it into Brawl but Marth remained. I expect Ike to not make it into SSB4 in the same fashion.

Please don't let your love of a certain franchise or character blind you to reason.

I love Eternal Darkness, but I'm not holding out hope for Alex Roivas because I know better.

Coming back to this, I apologize for being rude. Must've been a rough day.

On a freiendlyier note, FE is making a cross over game with Shin Megami Tensei. It seems as if no new characters will be released, but rather a collection of all the lords from previous games. For more--> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Megami_Tensei_X_Fire_Emblem
Lastly, I feel FE will have 3 reps still. Awakening was allegedly supposed to be FE's last game. Fortunately, It got so much attention, Nintendo is continuing the series. 3 reps could be present, as it's boost in popularity would support. Also in support(kind of a weak support, I'll admit), FE's roster could go several ways. Get rid of Ike and Include Chrom and leave Ike fans sad. Keep it the way it is and Not include anything new. Add Chrom AND Lucina as a combo character... The best way to go is to give up a overall roster space and make everyone happy.

 

[S_B]

Coming back to this, I apologize for being rude. Must've been a rough day.

On a freiendlyier note, FE is making a cross over game with Shin Megami Tensei. It seems as if no new characters will be released, but rather a collection of all the lords from previous games. For more--> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Megami_Tensei_X_Fire_Emblem
Lastly, I feel FE will have 3 reps still. Awakening was allegedly supposed to be FE's last game. Fortunately, It got so much attention, Nintendo is continuing the series. 3 reps could be present, as it's boost in popularity would support. Also in support(kind of a weak support, I'll admit), FE's roster could go several ways. Get rid of Ike and Include Chrom and leave Ike fans sad. Keep it the way it is and Not include anything new. Add Chrom AND Lucina as a combo character... The best way to go is to give up a overall roster space and make everyone happy.

I won't argue that there aren't a number of really cool FE characters that would be phenomenal for SSB, but I'm still only expecting two. :\

It's a shame Sakurai didn't direct the latest FE game himself, then we'd have 7 FE characters.

 

[smashingDoug]

I'm a little late to the party, but here's how I feel about the matter.

Mario already has 5 reps, Pokémon is extremely likely to get 5 reps (Brawl + Mewtwo), and Zelda is probably going to get 5 reps as well, although I am counting Sheik as a separate character (not as a slot, but she does in fact have a unique moveset).

well as of now sheik being her own slot (still calling it a cop out of a character where is my vaati) and ganondorf being in that 5
and the puff will most likely be back so that is 5 for them

 

[Your Hero]

I would argue Mario has 8 reps. Yoshi, Wario and DK represent their own series, but they are still Mario characters. It also seems silly to argue against this if people are considering Dr. Mario a mario rep yet argue Yoshi, Wario and DK aren't.

I personally think Rosalina's getting her own spin-off game soon. Rosalina has become really popular lately in Mario games, appearing in every spin-off game since her appearance as well as 3D World, but IMO she's not relevant enough in the Mario universe to "deserve" a slot in the roster. I'm not saying this against Rosalina, but rather I've always felt the same way about Waluigi, Bowser Jr and any other Mario character's chances of being in SSB as well (aside frompossibly Toad, who already appears as a counter attack for Peach, but he's appeared in plenty of Mario games, possibly outnumbering Yoshi's appearances).

Each Mario character in Brawl (including Yoshi, Wario and DK) all had a purpose for being in the roster. Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser appearing in just about every Mario game in some capacity, along with Yoshi in most games. DK became a spin-off series early on and developed his own world. And finally Wario got his Warioware and Wario Land series as well. They all have a purpose for being in the game.

Rosalina doesn't fit any of that. She appeared in the two Galaxy games (which are huge successes) as well as Super Mario 3D World as an unlockable 5th character. If we compare this to Bowser Jr, he has been in mostly every spin-off game, Mario Sunshine, and I believe most of the New Super Mario Bros games in some capacity. So why does Rosalina get put into the game while Bowser Jr. doesn't? It seems really clear to me that Nintendo wants to continue on with the Galaxy-esque style of games but I'm sure if they're thinking longterm, they don't want to burn it out and end up with Mario Galaxy 17 for the Wii HDU 4. With Rosalina having a rich backstory and now plenty of fighting experience, I could see her getting a spin-off game focused in the galaxy setting with lumas.

---

I also think Pokemon is getting 6 reps (the current 4 + Jigglypuff and Mewtwo) and LOZ is getting 5 (the current 4 + ganondorf).

 

[C3CC]

I would argue Mario has 8 reps. Yoshi, Wario and DK represent their own series, but they are still Mario characters. It also seems silly to argue against this if people are considering Dr. Mario a mario rep yet argue Yoshi, Wario and DK aren't.

I personally think Rosalina's getting her own spin-off game soon. Rosalina has become really popular lately in Mario games, appearing in every spin-off game since her appearance as well as 3D World, but IMO she's not relevant enough in the Mario universe to "deserve" a slot in the roster. I'm not saying this against Rosalina, but rather I've always felt the same way about Waluigi, Bowser Jr and any other Mario character's chances of being in SSB as well (aside frompossibly Toad, who already appears as a counter attack for Peach, but he's appeared in plenty of Mario games, possibly outnumbering Yoshi's appearances).

Each Mario character in Brawl (including Yoshi, Wario and DK) all had a purpose for being in the roster. Mario, Luigi, Peach and Bowser appearing in just about every Mario game in some capacity, along with Yoshi in most games. DK became a spin-off series early on and developed his own world. And finally Wario got his Warioware and Wario Land series as well. They all have a purpose for being in the game.

Rosalina doesn't fit any of that. She appeared in the two Galaxy games (which are huge successes) as well as Super Mario 3D World as an unlockable 5th character. If we compare this to Bowser Jr, he has been in mostly every spin-off game, Mario Sunshine, and I believe most of the New Super Mario Bros games in some capacity. So why does Rosalina get put into the game while Bowser Jr. doesn't? It seems really clear to me that Nintendo wants to continue on with the Galaxy-esque style of games but I'm sure if they're thinking longterm, they don't want to burn it out and end up with Mario Galaxy 17 for the Wii HDU 4. With Rosalina having a rich backstory and now plenty of fighting experience, I could see her getting a spin-off game focused in the galaxy setting with lumas.

---

I also think Pokemon is getting 6 reps (the current 4 + Jigglypuff and Mewtwo) and LOZ is getting 5 (the current 4 + ganondorf).

It's like you stole my words or something. I love Rosalina, and I'm planning on maining her, but sometimes I wonder if she really deserves her spot on Smash Bros, which is why I'm sure she's getting her own spin-off series soon (I think she's perfect for an RPG). That, and Super Mario Galaxy 3 is on the works (not confirmed, but I'm sure of it too). The only other character I think deserves a spot on Smash Bros would be Bowser Jr because of the reasons you mentioned.

I'm also sure Mewtwo is returning. It can't be more obvious.

 

[Your Hero]

I would love if Rosalina had an RPG series. I've always been a huge fan of Paper Mario and I could see her pulling off something similar with Lumas and other space-based mario partners helping her out.