So...none items user....cant adapt?

[chunkysoupy]

Okay, long time lurker, first time poster. This thread is what ultimately made me join.

I have an interesting Melee story to tell. At a Gamestop they had Melee going, and I ended up playing this one guy. He was okay, nothing to sneeze at, but I clearly had more experience at the game. The first game was a non-item battle, and I three-stocked him. The second game was with items, and he won with one stock left. Why? Not because I can't handle my items, I'm a Peach player. He was fortunate enough to have THREE Maxim Tomatoes spawn near him. When it comes to that, clearly he had the upper hand, thus the fight wasn't fair. And don't say "If you're any good you would have beaten him anyway." The only reason someone could ever beat the guy who got a healing item is because the skill level is already so distant that one guy is clearly going to win. In a fight between two who are equal in skill, an item match means it comes down to luck. In my case I believe I was better, but not by enough.

With that said, I hope I have a good time on the forum. The community looks to be a nice one, when they're not trying to argue their opinion anyway.

JESUS THIS SCENARIO HERE IS THE EXACT ONE WE KEEP REPEATING OVER AND OVER AND HE STILL FAILS TO ANSWER TO IT.

 

[DanteSmash7]

These are college tourney's nothing too official. Idk about you but the NY tournament was sponsored by Nintendo. Oh guess what, it had items. Got me some Wii Gloves and what-not. Not to mention it had prizes.

Whats next your gonna try 2 restrict someones control style. Please, if your down to smash let me know Mr Chunky. But your love for me makes me giggle. A grown man giggle. Tsk tsk.

 

[chunkysoupy]

HAHAHAHAHA. How the hell does someone as stupid as you even manage to TYPE ? SURE you went to a tournament. You probably played for $5 with 3 or 4 other noobs on Hyrule Temple in a free-for all.

Using items takes NO SKILL. NONE WHATSOEVER. You walk over to the item, press A and then press A again to throw. A complete ****** (like you) could do it.

STOP setting yourself up as a talented genius who is so much better than all the pros and can adapt better. You're not. Even if you camped, item-wh*red and spammed all your matches the pros would still destroy you EVERY SINGLE TIME because a scrub with items is still a scrub. You are a sh*t player who wants items in so you can mash buttons and still have a chance of winning.

Look at this:

You even ADMIT that the more items on, the more chaotic and random the matches so by your own logic, we should turn them off because they make the match "random and chaotic."



Free for all matches DO NOT WORK because people can gang up on the best players, spam moves easily, or run away from the battle so that they don't lose any health or stock and then kill the last remaining player who is at a huge disadvantage.

Also, please try to improve upon you terrible grammar. A typo here or there is no big deal but your grammar is just awful. "None items user" actually makes no real grammatical sense, and is lacking in verb agreement. Try "non-item users." If you could avoid putting periods where they don't belong (like in the middle of sentences) that would be great.

Also, if you could jump off a cliff or drink some bleach, that would be great too, and you'd be doing the world a favour.

EVERYTHING THIS MAN SAID.

 

[chunkysoupy]

These are college tourney's nothing too official. Idk about you but the NY tournament was sponsored by Nintendo. Oh guess what, it had items. Got me some Wii Gloves and what-not. Not to mention it had prizes.

Whats next your gonna try 2 restrict someones control style. Please, if your down to smash let me know Mr Chunky. But your love for me makes me giggle. A grown man giggle. Tsk tsk.

These are college tourney's nothing too official. Idk about you but the NY tournament was sponsored by Nintendo. Oh guess what, it had items


nothing too official. Idk about you but the NY tournament was sponsored by Nintendo. Oh guess what, it had items

nothing too official; it had items

not official; had items


.....


What do you know? Sponsored by Nintendo! We all know how many recognized tournaments pros play in that are sponsored by them....right...right?

As for my "obsession with you", I guess it's entertaining to try to make someone see what an idiot they are. Thanks for helping me out with that last gem of a comment.

 

[DanteSmash7]

Okay, long time lurker, first time poster. This thread is what ultimately made me join.

I have an interesting Melee story to tell. At a Gamestop they had Melee going, and I ended up playing this one guy. He was okay, nothing to sneeze at, but I clearly had more experience at the game. The first game was a non-item battle, and I three-stocked him. The second game was with items, and he won with one stock left. Why? Not because I can't handle my items, I'm a Peach player. He was fortunate enough to have THREE Maxim Tomatoes spawn near him. When it comes to that, clearly he had the upper hand, thus the fight wasn't fair. And don't say "If you're any good you would have beaten him anyway." The only reason someone could ever beat the guy who got a healing item is because the skill level is already so distant that one guy is clearly going to win. In a fight between two who are equal in skill, an item match means it comes down to luck. In my case I believe I was better, but not by enough.

With that said, I hope I have a good time on the forum. The community looks to be a nice one, when they're not trying to argue their opinion anyway.

Welcome dude.... glad you joined. But Understand that because that happened once. Doesn't mean 100% of the time is gonna happen. Were the items put in high? Cause thats a different story.

Not to mention peach was the strongest char in Melee. Her recover, items could spawn from her, turnips have different abilities, and her god-like down-smash.

 

[chunkysoupy]

Welcome dude.... glad you joined. But Understand that because that happened once. Doesn't mean 100% of the time is gonna happen. Were the items put in high? Cause thats a different story.

Not to mention peach was the strongest char in Melee. Her recover, items could spawn from her, turnips have different abilities, and her god-like down-smash.

Not to mention peach was the strongest char in Melee. Her recover, items could spawn from her, turnips have different abilities, and her god-like down-smash

Not to mention peach was the strongest char in Melee. Her recover, items could spawn from her,

Not to mention peach was the strongest char in Melee

peach was the strongest char in Melee


....

You just keep getting better and better....



I'm out, thanks for pretty much telling me you're ********. I just feel bad for anyone who listens to your drivel and believes it.

 

[Misto-Roboto]

As an item fan, I agree that items make the game more fun, but in tournaments, the objective task is to determine who is the most skilled player without random outside influences. It is crucial to understand this point and if you can't wrap your head around that, it won't really matter what we tell you, because you won't see the tournament scene for what it is.

If say the spawn points could be predicted by players, maybe they could be viable in tournaments, but unfortunately they can't and the game goes from being a game of smart play through good technique to random chance, and that is bad, for the tournament scene. This doesn't stop you from enjoying items does it? Do people who don't play with items in tournaments keep you from enjoying Brawl any less?

And on this, and I mean this seriously, if you think items can be viable, continue research into item tournaments. I would love to see a way where more features of Smash can be legitimately possible in tournaments while still keeping the game fair.

 

[DanteSmash7]

Not to mention peach was the strongest char in Melee. Her recover, items could spawn from her, turnips have different abilities, and her god-like down-smash

Not to mention peach was the strongest char in Melee. Her recover, items could spawn from her,

Not to mention peach was the strongest char in Melee

peach was the strongest char in Melee


....

You just keep getting better and better....

Yo dude, uhhh your quoting and repeating what am saying. Come on, cant love me that much can you.? So tell me your story Chunky, two hours till am done. Tell me what happen when you were a kid. Did someone throw a sword to your face?

"Mami mami"

I kid I kid. Yeah dude whats your story and beef with items.? Not lieing when I said a bomb hasn't hit my face in Brawl but in Melee yeah. That was like 2 % of the time.

 

[chunkysoupy]

Yo dude, uhhh your quoting and repeating what am saying. Come on, cant love me that much can you.? So tell me your story Chunky, two hours till am done. Tell me what happen when you were a kid. Did someone throw a sword to your face?

"Mami mami"

I kid I kid. Yeah dude whats your story and beef with items.? Not lieing when I said a bomb hasn't hit my face in Brawl but in Melee yeah. That was like 2 % of the time.

It's called emphasis, not that I'd really expect you to know that.

If money is on the line, you want the least amount of randomness PERIOD. Happy? Even ONE instance where a bomb hits you in the face, and make you lose your deposit (no not your likely 3 to 4 dollar crap), is enough to turn even the most obnoxious item-fellater into one of us.

Go play in a real tournament. Until then, you're a scrub with items, but a scrub nonetheless.

I'm out.

 

[BlackWhiteOrange]

I'm gonna keep posting this until you stop ignoring the questions you can't answer and stop spewing the same crap over and over.

Originally posted by DanteSmash7:
You cannot control tripping and take it from someone who used to play in tournaments for $.

HAHAHAHAHA. How the hell does someone as stupid as you even manage to TYPE ? You probably played for $5 with 3 or 4 other noobs on Hyrule Temple in a free-for all.

Using items takes NO SKILL. NONE WHATSOEVER. You walk over to the item, press A and then press A again to throw. A complete ****** (like you) could do it.

STOP setting yourself up as a talented genius who is so much better than all the pros and can adapt better. You're not. Even if you camped, item-wh*red and spammed all your matches the pros would still destroy you EVERY SINGLE TIME because a scrub with items is still a scrub. You are a sh*t player who wants items in so you can mash buttons and still have a chance of winning.

Look at this:

Originally posted by DanteSmash7:I do think Items on high is too chaotic and random. Having them on medium is a better thing.

You even ADMIT that the more items on, the more chaotic and random the matches so by your own logic, we should turn them off because they make the match "random and chaotic."

Originally posted by DanteSmash7:Having them on medium is a better thing. Also, I suggest a 5 stock survival match with 4 player FFA, or team battles will do. Stages can be random but 3 matches should define the winner. Who is with me?

Free for all matches DO NOT WORK because people can gang up on the best players, spam moves easily, or run away from the battle so that they don't lose any health or stock and then kill the last remaining player who is at a huge disadvantage.

Also, please try to improve upon you terrible grammar. A typo here or there is no big deal but your grammar is just awful. "None items user" actually makes no real grammatical sense, and is lacking in verb agreement. Try "non-item users." If you could avoid putting periods where they don't belong (like in the middle of sentences) that would be great.

Also, if you could jump off a cliff or drink some bleach, that would be great too, and you'd be doing the world a favour.

 

[DanteSmash7]

Not too sure...

As an item fan, I agree that items make the game more fun, but in tournaments, the objective task is to determine who is the most skilled player without random outside influences. It is crucial to understand this point and if you can't wrap your head around that, it won't really matter what we tell you, because you won't see the tournament scene for what it is.

If say the spawn points could be predicted by players, maybe they could be viable in tournaments, but unfortunately they can't and the game goes from being a game of smart play through good technique to random chance, and that is bad, for the tournament scene. This doesn't stop you from enjoying items does it? Do people who don't play with items in tournaments keep you from enjoying Brawl any less?

And on this, and I mean this seriously, if you think items can be viable, continue research into item tournaments. I would love to see a way where more features of Smash can be legitimately possible in tournaments while still keeping the game fair.

Random outside? Influences... Smash brothers isn't like any other game. That is why it is really good. But when you try to undermine its tactical essence because of a random factor and the inability of players to fight that. A part of it is cuts off, for me and for many others. I am sure Many pros will arise thanks to brawl and Melee of course.

And if there is anything I learned in melee is that knee-jerk reacting can change the tide of a battle. Same can be applied when a item spawns, then you know what it is. And can start getting those strategies in place. So is it fair? Yeah, but sometimes it will seem as it isnt. Thats up to the player to determine.

(****, he grabed the smash ball, even though I could of hit him, instead of the smash ball)

Tactics, shouldn't be too cut off. To simply justify a Handicap in my opinion and others as well. Yeah, I am seeing tons of tourneys esp in college scene with items. Glad Nintendo understands as well.

A really good example, is Snake, very projectile oriented fighter. One I have yet too master myself. Some argue that these are items, instead of moves.


-BlackWhiteOrange

Way to make up a quote. But yeah, I admit that items on high spawning 1 Millie second. Is unbalance. It would be sudden death, except with not only bombs but everything else.

Players corning to a argument because of a Bomb Trauma to that a bomb landed on my char. Just doesn't happen alot. In my case hasn't happen yet.

 

[BlackWhiteOrange]

Welcome dude.... glad you joined. But Understand that because that happened once. Doesn't mean 100% of the time is gonna happen. Were the items put in high? Cause thats a different story.

Not to mention peach was the strongest char in Melee. Her recover, items could spawn from her, turnips have different abilities, and her god-like down-smash.

First off, if setting items to high completely wrecks the game, and setting items to medium means they appear only about 20% less, doesn't that mean that setting items to medium at least partially wrecks the game? Wouldn't it be the smartest thing to do to take the obvious path and remove items ENTIRELY to stop the game's fairness being compromised at all?

Second, the claim that Peach was Melee's best character just proves that you don't understand competitive smash brothers at all.

Tactics, shouldn't be too cut off. To simply justify a Handicap in my opinion and others as well.

ITEMS ARE A HANDICAP! TO TALENTLESS, CRAP PLAYERS AND NOOBS LIKE YOU. Pro players would pwn you with items, without items, on any settings imagineable. Get over it.

A really good example, is Snake, very projectile oriented fighter. One I have yet too master myself. Some argue that these are items, instead of moves.

Um, those are Snake's MOVES, not items. He can use them at any time, they're part of his moveset. Just because they're projectiles doesn't mean they're items. They don't appear in random places at random times.

Tactics, shouldn't be too cut off.

You don't need to put a comma there, in fact it's incorrect puncuation to do so. Also, items are NOT tactical. They would be if they appeared at specific times, directly in between the two players, so that they had an equal chance of getting to the item. As it is items give advantages to talentless sacks of sh*t like you.

Way to make up a quote. But yeah, I admit that items on high spawning 1 Millie second. Is unbalance. It would be sudden death, except with not only bombs but everything else.

I DIDN'T MAKE UP THE QUOTE, you f*cking said it, go back a page or too and you will find it. Not only are you stupid, your memory is failing you too. Also, if items on HIGH is way too much, then isn't items on medium at least a bit too much? Doesn't the fact that the more items, the more random and chaotic (WHICH YOU HAVE ADMITTED) justify turning them off entirely?

 

[Sculelos]

item matches are a totally different experience. When I play with items I usually pick Sonic or Falcon due to the fact that I can just run and grab them before other players. Thus leading me to win most of the time.

But seriously item tournaments would be fine with me but everyone would have to accept that random stuff WILL take place in item matches and it will be a combination of skill and luck that determines the winner.

I just don't play with items because I would rather rely totally on my own fighting skill and not just running around like a madman to get the best items (I will be Sonic guaranteed if Items are set on high).

 

[Red Alert]

i think it's kinda sad that you guys have actually tried to debate with this guy for 20 pages now

 

[DanteSmash7]

First off, if setting items to high completely wrecks the game, and setting items to medium means they appear only about 20% less, doesn't that mean that setting items to medium at least partially wrecks the game? Wouldn't it be the smartest thing to do to take the obvious path and remove items ENTIRELY to stop the game's fairness being compromised at all?

Second, the claim that Peach was Melee's best character just proves that you don't understand competitive smash brothers at all.



ITEMS ARE A HANDICAP! TO TALENTLESS, CRAP PLAYERS AND NOOBS LIKE YOU. Pro players would pwn you with items, without items, on any settings imagineable. Get over it.



Um, those are Snake's MOVES, not items. He can use them at any time, they're part of his moveset. Just because they're projectiles doesn't mean they're items. They don't appear in random places at random times.



You don't need to put a comma there, in fact it's incorrect puncuation to do so. Also, items are NOT tactical. They would be if they appeared at specific times, directly in between the two players, so that they had an equal chance of getting to the item. As it is items give advantages to talentless sacks of sh*t like you.



I DIDN'T MAKE UP THE QUOTE, you f*cking said it, go back a page or too and you will find it. Not only are you stupid, your memory is failing you too. Also, if items on HIGH is way too much, then isn't items on medium at least a bit too much? Doesn't the fact that the more items, the more random and chaotic (WHICH YOU HAVE ADMITTED) justify turning them off entirely?

Are you even worth my time? I can play both. None Items and Items. At any rate I have one hour to go and need a monkey. So you are my monkey.

Gramaticaly correct on the internet, yes....never heard that onee beforeee. Please, attacking a digital persona shows that all who have done so, have any character in real life. Muahzzzz.

 

[Misto-Roboto]

Random outside? Influences... Smash brothers isn't like any other game. That is why it is really good. But when you try to undermine its tactical essence because of a random factor and the inability of players to fight that. A part of it is cuts off, for me and for many others. I am sure Many pros will arise thanks to brawl and Melee of course.

And if there is anything I learned in melee is that knee-jerk reacting can change the tide of a battle. Same can be applied when a item spawns, then you know what it is. And can start getting those strategies in place. So is it fair? Yeah, but sometimes it will seem as it isnt. Thats up to the player to determine.

(****, he grabed the smash ball, even though I could of hit him, instead of the smash ball)

Tactics, shouldn't be too cut off. To simply justify a Handicap in my opinion and others as well. Yeah, I am seeing tons of tourneys esp in college scene with items. Glad Nintendo understands as well.

A really good example, is Snake, very projectile oriented fighter. One I have yet too master myself. Some argue that these are items, instead of moves.

You clearly missing the point though. It isn't an issue of tactical essence, randomness = bad. No one enjoys losing to randomness which is the issue with items, in tournaments. Is it fair for an item to spawn randomly in opponents favor? Now if I knew where I would expect to see it, maybe, but the fact is randomness does not connote to competitiveness. Once again, I'm not saying there isn't skill in it or there isn't strategy to knowing how you would get the item, but the risk vs. reward doesn't stack up to professional standards in tournaments.

And on your Snake example, the reason that doesn't work in your favor is due to the fact that the players in tournaments know that Snake only has A, B, and C moves, which can produce A, B, and C outcomes. This allows for competitive strategy. There is no strategy to randomness. If you can't see this, you're missing the point. People are not saying items are bad, they are saying there randomness in spawning is bad. If there was a concrete way of determining when and how they spawn, then items would instantly become a viable option, in tournaments.

Nintendo also thinks we (as consumers) don't need online services, does that make Nintendo right? Just because the manufacturer makes official tournaments with items doesn't make it a good thing.

 

[DanteSmash7]

Items, and yeah...

item matches are a totally different experience. When I play with items I usually pick Sonic or Falcon due to the fact that I can just run and grab them before other players. Thus leading me to win most of the time.

But seriously item tournaments would be fine with me but everyone would have to accept that random stuff WILL take place in item matches and it will be a combination of skill and luck that determines the winner.

I just don't play with items because I would rather rely totally on my own fighting skill and not just running around like a madman to get the best items (I will be Sonic guaranteed if Items are set on high).

Speed is def a factor. Never said it wasnt, same applies in non item fights as well. Projectiles and how many can be used. Like I said, items take much more skill.

 

[DanteSmash7]

Depends

You clearly missing the point though. It isn't an issue of tactical essence, randomness = bad. No one enjoys losing to randomness which is the issue with items, in tournaments. Is it fair for an item to spawn randomly in opponents favor? Now if I knew where I would expect to see it, maybe, but the fact is randomness does not connote to competitiveness. Once again, I'm not saying there isn't skill in it or there isn't strategy to knowing how you would get the item, but the risk vs. reward doesn't stack up to professional standards in tournaments.

And on your Snake example, the reason that doesn't work in your favor is due to the fact that the players in tournaments know that Snake only has A, B, and C moves, which can produce A, B, and C outcomes. This allows for competitive strategy. There is no strategy to randomness. If you can't see this, you're missing the point. People are not saying items are bad, they are saying there randomness in spawning is bad. If there was a concrete way of determining when and how they spawn, then items would instantly become a viable option, in tournaments.

Nintendo also thinks we (as consumers) don't need online services, does that make Nintendo right? Just because the manufacturer makes official tournaments with items doesn't make it a good thing.

The snake example isn't about random-ness. It has more to do with spamming projectiles. Yeah its early here, and am writing a paper for class where I have to justify ****. So yeah, law.

Yet, wifi is in place. In Regards to Nintendo. And that has mostly to due with every other system having internet connections(PC, XBOX, PS3). I have much more fun playing smash in person than online. In games in general. Esp the trash talking that happens. Much fun.

Only other game, I have fun playing online, prob Team Fort 2. Thats about it.

 

[Spellman]

It isn't an issue of tactical essence, randomness = bad. No one enjoys losing to randomness which is the issue with items, in tournaments. Is it fair for an item to spawn randomly in opponents favor?

I don't like losing period, but I don't mind losing to items, and I don't mind losing to odds, and neither does this guy apparently or any of the other true item supporters. All is fair if you agree to the fact that **** happens in an items on match. If you knew what could happen when you agreed, then all that could happen is fair. The thing about item matches is, if you get to 1 stock vs. 1 stock and both of your percentages are high, and the game could be decided by one item falling, then apparently you weren't playing very hard or weren't very much more skilled than your opponent in the first place. Items on matches aren't about being a baby step better than your opponent, they're about being leagues ahead of your opponent, which is totally possible with the right amount of effort and maybe even natural talent.

However, there aren't a whole lot of item tournaments and in Melee they went extinct. They are unpopular.

Items off tournaments take a different type of skill, no more, no less, and that cannot be changed. Like you can't put an items on match and an items off match on a scale, it's not a mathematical issue here.

 

[BlackWhiteOrange]

The snake example isn't about random-ness. It has more to do with spamming projectiles. Yeah its early here, and am writing a paper for class where I have to justify ****. So yeah, law.

The problem with items IS randomness so if the Snake example isn't about randomness why are you bringing it up?

Huh. You're trying to justify ****, and also trying to justify the use of items in tournaments. Fitting, isn't it?

Are you even worth my time? I can play both. None Items and Items. At any rate I have one hour to go and need a monkey. So you are my monkey.

Gramaticaly correct on the internet, yes....never heard that onee beforeee. Please, attacking a digital persona shows that all who have done so, have any character in real life. Muahzzzz

The last paragraph had such bad grammar, such disjointed arguments that it was difficult to decipher (sorry but I'm not fluent in idiot, your language of choice) but I assume you're saying "it's alright to have bad grammar on the net, and anyway, I may be a douchebag online, but that doesn't mean anything about my personality in real life." A common fallacy. The internet is where people like you display their douchebagness for the world to see without fear of retribution.

Originally Posted by DanteSmash7:
I LOVE GAY PORN!!!! I WATCH IT WHILE I MOLEST LITTLE GIRLS IN MY PARENTS' BASEMENT. MY GOAL IN LIFE IS TO SUCCEED IN SUCKING MY OWN D*CK.

Oh dear, it looks like you're in serious need of help.

 

[DanteSmash7]

I don't like losing period, but I don't mind losing to items, and I don't mind losing to odds, and neither does this guy apparently or any of the other true item supporters. All is fair if you agree to the fact that **** happens in an items on match. If you knew what could happen when you agreed, then all that could happen is fair. The thing about item matches is, if you get to 1 stock vs. 1 stock and both of your percentages are high, and the game could be decided by one item falling, then apparently you weren't playing very hard or weren't very much more skilled than your opponent in the first place. Items on matches aren't about being a baby step better than your opponent, they're about being leagues ahead of your opponent, which is totally possible with the right amount of effort and maybe even natural talent.

However, there aren't a whole lot of item tournaments and in Melee they went extinct. They are unpopular.

Items off tournaments take a different type of skill, no more, no less, and that cannot be changed. Like you can't put an items on match and an items off match on a scale, it's not a mathematical issue here.

Losing helps you grow as a player. Any expert on melee will tell you that. For that matter just about anything. Your have your opinion. Mind you, mob like mentality does influence. For examples "Trolls who claim that a poster is a troll but in essence has just trolled".

So, in regards to tourneys. Items are exploding in college scene. Nope, haven't had one newcomer beat me. Yes, with items on. Nintendo is backing item sponsored tourneys as well.

 

[BlackWhiteOrange]

"The college scene" in this case being whatever college you go to, which is isolated from the wider smash community. You beat a couple of guys who are just nooby as you are and you let it go to your head, honestly believing you even have a chance of beating anybody half decent.

Nintendo has never, in the history of smash, sponsored a tournament that was taken seriously by the smash community. Ever.

And don't even try to claim you aren't a troll. Your first post was a cocky, taunting and amazingly arrogant pile of filth practically designed to irritate anyone with a brain, then you really entrenched yourself and proved yourself a troll when you ignored everyone's arguments, "rebutted" people by saying a bunch of **** which had NOTHING to do with the point being debated, and then you even implied that you were only doing this to reap enjoyment out of pissing people off when you said you had one hour left and were going to spend it pissing me off.

Seriously, you didn't even reply to any of the points in my post, you just wrote a completely unintelligible paragraph chock-full of bullsh*t and acted like it was a valid argument. You are disgusting, filthy, putrid excuse for a human being.

Go dive in a vat of sulphuric acid. It'll do you a world of good.

 

[DanteSmash7]

The End?

Well, just finished my paper. At long last.

What I get from the smash community. Def some good players. Limited and many set in their ways. Inability to adapt and grasp true skill. That’s okay in regards to melee just don’t see it applying to brawl, am sorry. I def see more tourneys esp in Buffalo, NY, PA, and other places in regard to the college scene(Item wise). Having played in couple myself. I think Sak implemented tripping for a huge reason. And if that reason was to somehow annoy competitive players. I find that hard to believe. Overall I have gotten tons of Private Messages of old players simply changing to Item fights. Yes, competitively. Yes, people who play a lot.

Ultimately it is up to the player, if they want to change a play style. If they want to limit themselves. Its going to happen. A lot of people came across with the same “Bomb Trauma”. Which meant, the community has a huge mob like mentality when confronted about differences on some facts.

Having played professionally, I tire of the same non-item battles. It might be my very craving for a challenge beyond what I know and also consider a broken norm. And one justified by old rules to an old game(Melee). The potential of brawl has a huge scale or can become limited as well. I don’t see non-item battles leaving. I do see Item tournaments growing and become much more mainstreamed.

Yes, def will see many more professional fighters entering, in what will probably be two sets of tournament rules. Yes, even with items. What that is, who knows.

Overall shortcuts to my Facts and Opinion

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155819 #1
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155819&page=14 #206
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155819&page=15 #212

Thanks to all those who claimed that I was a troll but trolled. Then wondered why I didn’t respond to them. Thanks for bumping my thread as well. Muahzzz. (Why bump your own thread? A Troll (Angry Internet guy) will do it for you.

Hope for many future, debates. On different matters concerning smash. Bid you all ado.
-(At this point, won’t respond to the thread, but if you wish to see my skillz PM me. Currently I am filled with pupils. Sorry.)-

 

[Thino]

at the end you just ended up discussing how tactical and skillful items are when most of pro-competitive player were arguing with you about their RANDOMNESS
you cannot adapt to randomness .period.
if you get an item that spawn next to you , no matter how much skill it takes to pick it , to use it, to dodge it or to throw it, its just LUCK
so your logic was tripping is random , its mandatory so items are random they should be mandatory as well?
competitive playing try to eliminate the MOST of random factor if possible.
we cant disable tripping.
we can disable items.
so items will be disabled.
how do you explain Peach wasnt banned from melee tournaments for pulling out stchfaces and bobombs?
and no she wasnt the strongest player STILL.
tripping is a minor annoyance compared to items.

Nintendo sponsors tournament with items , so what? Those tournaments arent necessarily won by the player with most skill , but by the player with most luck , that is all
your college scene is still a minor scene compared to the wide smash scene.

enjoy beating the crap out of your "pupils" , hope your supposedly tournament scene become successful
and thanks for ignoring my point about coin battle being part of the smash spirit by saying the overall goal is kill and not getting killed cuz that proves you never played a coin battle ,
also thanks for failing at explaining me what the smash spirit really is cuz by your point of view

playing with items is respecting the smash spirit , playing without the is cutting from the smash spirit becuz of the effort the "creator" made to implement items in the game

but playing coin battle or bonus mode is NOT respecting the smash spirit, even though it does take the tactic to a new level of gameplay , essentially being NOT about killing or being killed, and the "creator" made effort to implement them too but we do not use them

in the end you're just saying that your way to play is the "smash spirit" and our way isnt .

have a good day

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Jooce, I appreciate your kind answer. I know you are not guilty for this, but non item players are always overrating item play. They laugh and criticize item tournaments, and at item tournament ideas. I understand the atmosphere many people want for their competitive scene. But they don't seem to understand the concept behind item play. What I am trying to do is defend item play as another type of competitive play, but with a different spirit. Yes, I have to say it like this, because Item players think and feel in a very different way. I don't want to convince any of you to play or to support item tournaments, but I want to find the people to create a different competitive atmosphere, that benefit from anything the game has to offer. This often leads to a war between item and non item players. And as they mess with us, we have to mess with them. There may be people who doesn't know which way they like best, and reading this discussions they can make up their minds, or they can just participate in both kinds of tournaments.

 

[Thino]

but with a different spirit.

now you're talking good

 

[Big Burn]

my god....im not going to bother reading the 21 pages of posts of the horrible thread....god **** the boards are filled with so much bull**** ever since brawl came out

 

[MorpheusVGX]

I don't like losing period, but I don't mind losing to items, and I don't mind losing to odds, and neither does this guy apparently or any of the other true item supporters. All is fair if you agree to the fact that **** happens in an items on match. If you knew what could happen when you agreed, then all that could happen is fair. The thing about item matches is, if you get to 1 stock vs. 1 stock and both of your percentages are high, and the game could be decided by one item falling, then apparently you weren't playing very hard or weren't very much more skilled than your opponent in the first place. Items on matches aren't about being a baby step better than your opponent, they're about being leagues ahead of your opponent, which is totally possible with the right amount of effort and maybe even natural talent.

However, there aren't a whole lot of item tournaments and in Melee they went extinct. They are unpopular.

Items off tournaments take a different type of skill, no more, no less, and that cannot be changed. Like you can't put an items on match and an items off match on a scale, it's not a mathematical issue here.

About your blog I wnanted to say this. (But I am not a member):

I agree with everything you say. I do believe in competitive play with items. I've been experiencing it since smash 64 many years ago. I want to add, that items may look like it is unfair to a player when they appear in a critical situation. But the truth is winning is about dominating the whole match. Protecting each of your lives with effort until the end. 5 stock is appropriate for item play. You maybe unlucky, or your skills didn't let you avoid that disadvantage the item gave to your opponent. But if we talk about 5 stocks, you have the time to compensate and come back. I remember a recent match. We both were near death. He took the smash ball, I avoided his final smash (pk starstorm), then he grabbed a hammer. With courage I took a charged forward smash at him and I hit him thru the hammer and launched him to his death. I wanted to win no matter what. It was glorious. That's my competitive spirit ^^.

 

[Corigames]

For starters I can play both none items and items. But I fancy items more cause it takes more skill. A lot of people are applying melee logic to freaking brawl it just doesn't carry over too well.

Not to mention it takes ten times more tactics when worrying about stage, fellow player, and the items. If a person grabs a item before you. Its because they are faster than you. Doesn't mean that person knows how to use that item. And the items are generated randomly, so you have no clue what your gonna get. Could be a huge freaking bomb to the face or a heart. (Unless you tampered with the item settings.)

Overall, players need to step out of their comfort zone esp if they which to improve. I haven't fought anyone I cant handle in item battle and a none item battle. Mostly that is due to the fact of all the dodging that it forces you to use. Then I simply apply that to a none item battle and **** away. Kinda, disappointing that people need their handicap and even with it, they loose.

(Besides, how bad *** is it when you own someone after they just got a heart or a tomato)

True skill.

Yes, it takes true skill to have random occurences lean toward your victory. I mean, I bet I couldn't beat you when you have mad enough skillz to drop a super hammer right in front of you at the begginning of the match. Or, those crazy skills of yours to break my 20 chain combo with a randomly appearing bob-omb. Yeah, mad skills. How about that time your opponent was flying off the screen and a heart appeared allowing you to grab it with no competition because he was too busy dieing. Sweet Jesus Flamin' Cheetos Christ awesome skills.

Items take skill to use, but the majority of the time the acquisition of the item was left down to the fate of the game. Plus, certain characters can be unbelievably unstoppable with items, like jigglypuff with the screw attack in melee or the fact that the Ice Climbers can hold 2 in 1 making them extremely powerful when it comes time to hold melee items.

Besides, your argument about it making you better is flawed. It's just like the people saying that playing in lightning mode will make you better, it doesn't. Your timing and spacing will be way off. You will become concerned with things that don't matter, like if that crate is just going to explode or contain a boat load of health. Perhaps a smash ball? Who knows! I can say one thing, I don't find comparing my luck to your luck to be, in any form, competition.

Just because you are lucky doesn't mean you are good.

 

[Jooce Bocks]

I like the monkey avatar. =)

In regards to adapting. Yeah the random factor you cannot. But after the item is produced. You can see what he/she has. If ninja pops out you know how to get away. A bomb

A. Block with my face
B. Grab it and throw it at em
C. Reflect
D. Dodge it.

So yes, items are very much more tactical. Glad we agree Jooce Bocks.

The main problem is that these tactics can be performed with ANY move, not just items. Lets say I am Mario and Ike swings at me, I can either:
A. Get hit.
B. Grab him and throw him.
C. Reflect (cape).
D. Dodge.

See what happened there? The options are the same, it's just that my opponent didn't randomly gain an overpowered benefit that makes these tactics neigh impossible to perform against a reasonably skilled player.

The fact of the matter still remains that we cannot possibly "adapt" to the random factor, and therein lies the problem. Tough luck ever "dominating" a Melee Ken level player (I would use a Brawl example but there currently is none) when he continuously slows down your time, gains random invulnerability, and/or fully heals at least once a stock by that Heart/Tomato placed to his advantage. I use Ken as an example because he is a (not saying THE top, as that is debatable) top player in the competitive scene. To expect a person to be able to defeat the top players, despite this person being randomly handicapped throughout the match, is an unfair expectation. On the reverse, expecting the best to defend their title under such situations is also unfair.

Losing helps you grow as a player. Any expert on melee will tell you that. For that matter just about anything. Your have your opinion. Mind you, mob like mentality does influence. For examples "Trolls who claim that a poster is a troll but in essence has just trolled".

So, in regards to tourneys. Items are exploding in college scene. Nope, haven't had one newcomer beat me. Yes, with items on. Nintendo is backing item sponsored tourneys as well.

Losing to the better player helps you grow as a player; losing because an item spawned and killed you or made him completely untouchable simply makes you lose with no benefit. What can you do next time to win? Nothing. All you can do is hope the same thing doesn't happen again, or that the randomly generated benefits spawn in your favor. It's like expecting that the best sports player truly shines when the audience is armed with rifles and randomly firing at him. He can't dodge so many randomly fired bullets. All he can do is hope.

Also, of course a newcomer wont beat you with items on or off if they're not good at all or have never really played much. That's like 90% of the players I face when I bring my Wii to college. However, official tournaments are arranged with the assumption that the skill levels of the players are at a similarly high level. When skill levels are close then whoever receives those randomly generated benefits the most has the upper hand.

These are college tourney's nothing too official. Idk about you but the NY tournament was sponsored by Nintendo. Oh guess what, it had items. Got me some Wii Gloves and what-not. Not to mention it had prizes.

Whats next your gonna try 2 restrict someones control style. Please, if your down to smash let me know Mr Chunky. But your love for me makes me giggle. A grown man giggle. Tsk tsk.

Actually, I believe Nintendo hosted the Gamestop tournaments as well and guess what - they restricted control style. Also, yes they had items. However, Nintendo is hosting tournaments not to appeal to the competitive scene, but to advertise their game and products. This is a party game and that is what they advertised.

Welcome dude.... glad you joined. But Understand that because that happened once. Doesn't mean 100% of the time is gonna happen. Were the items put in high? Cause thats a different story.

Not to mention peach was the strongest char in Melee. Her recover, items could spawn from her, turnips have different abilities, and her god-like down-smash.

The odds of it happening 100% of the time are as high of it never happening at all. You can never control or predict probability, hence we turn it off. As I said many times earlier, even if there is a 1/100 chance of it happening does not mean it cannot happen 2-3 times in a row (which will determine a tournament match). Understand that because it CAN happen, it WILL happen.

Also, just had to comment that Peach was not the strongest in the game.

 

[Blackshadow]

What, are we all riding a ****ing merry-go-round here? This is getting past ridiculous. Honestly, how is it possible that a thread we've seen thousands of times before gets over 21 pages of replies within a couple of days? Its like this board is filled with goldfish or something.

 

[Thino]

About your blog I wnanted to say this. (But I am not a member):

I agree with everything you say. I do believe in competitive play with items. I've been experiencing it since smash 64 many years ago. I want to add, that items may look like it is unfair to a player when they appear in a critical situation. But the truth is winning is about dominating the whole match. Protecting each of your lives with effort until the end. 5 stock is appropriate for item play. You maybe unlucky, or your skills didn't let you avoid that disadvantage the item gave to your opponent. But if we talk about 5 stocks, you have the time to compensate and come back. I remember a recent match. We both were near death. He took the smash ball, I avoided his final smash (pk starstorm), then he grabbed a hammer. With courage I took a charged forward smash at him and I hit him thru the hammer and launched him to his death. I wanted to win no matter what. It was glorious. That's my competitive spirit ^^.

and playing without isnt about protecting each of your lives with effort until the end? without items you haven't time to compensate and come back? you may be unlucky
yes and it doesnt looks unfair it is. thats the problem. tournament playing just try to get rid of that luck even if it requires to get rid of a part of the game to make things balanced and fair .
what does the fact of hitting thru the hammer have to do with the competitive spirit , and wanting to win matter what? cant you realise that the same applies to playing with no items too?
if you play to win no matter what you dont have the time to be glorious
you dont seem to understand that what you call YOUR competitive spirit is actually the SAME as tournament playing

 

[Fugue]

STOP POSTING AND BUMPING THIS THREAD SO WE CAN LET TOPICS THAT AREN'T TROLLING STAY ON THE FRONT PAGE
THIS GUY HAS LEFT AND IS NO LONGER READING THIS TOPIC
LET IT DIE AND MOVE ON TO DISCUSSION ABOUT THINGS THAT MAKE SENSE
thnx agn

 

[Sygmus]

Welcome dude.... glad you joined. But Understand that because that happened once. Doesn't mean 100% of the time is gonna happen. Were the items put in high? Cause thats a different story.

Not to mention peach was the strongest char in Melee. Her recover, items could spawn from her, turnips have different abilities, and her god-like down-smash.

You're countering my arguement by saying I was Peach? *eye twitch* Peach's turnips are NOTHING compared to any spawned item, besides ol' stitch face. Spamming them does not exactly help you win a match, like spamming items would. Recovery and down-smash can only get you so far in an item match.

And I realize this scenario doesn't happen a lot. What I'm saying is, the fact that it CAN happen makes it unreliable in a tournament. See, in a tournament, the MOST IMPORTANT thing is that both players are on equal ground, and if my scenario COULD happen, that means it's already not equal. Then BAM, I lost the tournament because of random chance. Freak accidents should never be the reason someone wins or loses in a tournament setting.

I think the one thing that really starts a fire in my belly is you calling non-item mode a handicap. In non-item mode, you're taking out the items, not the skill. My brother only plays the 64 version because he doesn't have a GCN or Wii. He's not bad, but the only time he beats me is with a beam sword in his hand. Now what do you call that? One player has the upper hand. THAT'S a handicap, when one person has an advantage over another. With non-item mode we ELIMINATE handicaps, giving both players an equal setting. Even if it takes less skill to play non-item mode (which I'm not agreeing to), taking out items and obsticles doesn't mean it's a handicap for BOTH PLAYERS, that's poor logic. There's no such thing as a handicap for both players. What happens when, in Street Fighter 2, you give yourself a handicap of 2 and your opponent has a handicap of 2? It's equal and the handicap doesn't exist. Same case here, non-item mode is perfectly equal, there's no handicap.

I took the liberty of checking "handicap" in the dictionary, just to make sure I know what I'm talking about. The general idea is that there is an advantage or disadvantage, so I think my arguement makes sense.

 

[Justice7541]

Only one good thing came out of this entire thread and that was to tell us who the morons on this board are.

Congratulations, DanteSmash, Morpheus, and a few others, you're on the scrub list I'm writing up.

 

[Ieatsmashballs]

I had, drop my 2 cents.

This thread forces me to join. My 2 cents.

I play professional up in NY. Well, used to anyway. And yeah I have to agree. Brawl is a new chapter in the legacy that is smash. I don’t mean to sound condescending but it’s the truth. Melee rules are gone with tripping. I aint playing no freaking game for cash if tripping is in. In fact am down to re-define the smash spirit. Word to the wise. It seems that this mob like mentality needs to stop. I can’t wait to tag it versus some professionals up in NY with Items. At least that is the scene up in the Bronx baby.

To Dantesmash7, I just have to say. Going to the hornets’ nest isn’t easy. I can see that a lot of people in this thread do the following “Don’t answer this troll”.

But right there, they have just showed that they are trolls. The fact is the thread is 21 pages strong. I think that’s more contribution than the troll above this post. And others in general. Even I. But I just joined so what’s your excuse. Keep strong and give me a shout out. If you can train me as well. Am fu.cking down son.

I played once in BIN and it was okay. Very grassroots. Props baby! I want to see some major changes and hopefully some insane tense item battles. BABY, am down to fu.cking adapt. That’s how we do.

 

[Jooce Bocks]

This thread forces me to join. My 2 cents.

I play professional up in NY. Well, used to anyway. And yeah I have to agree. Brawl is a new chapter in the legacy that is smash. I don’t mean to sound condescending but it’s the truth. Melee rules are gone with tripping. I aint playing no freaking game for cash if tripping is in. In fact am down to re-define the smash spirit. Word to the wise. It seems that this mob like mentality needs to stop. I can’t wait to tag it versus some professionals up in NY with Items. At least that is the scene up in the Bronx baby.

Yes, Brawl is a new chapter in smash. All of us who remain have grasped that. However, the entirety of the competitive scene is not going to be taken down by tripping. Based on your comment, "I aint playing no freaking game for cash if tripping is in," it seems you have given up on the high level tournament scene. Tournaments are going to be very small and casual if there are no rewards, not even the reward of winning in a fair, on-on-one match.

It's not mob-like mentality. We have given items a chance before. The random factor proved to be too much for the competitive scene. This problematic factor still remains in Brawl, so we know items will not make it. Of course that is how current local tournaments will be. Tournaments are mostly being set up as of now as promotional events by Nintendo and not to appeal to competitive players. The meta game has not developed enough for professional tournaments so these item tournaments currently outnumber competitive tournaments. When it is no longer worth the effort to spend time commercially promoting this game, Nintendo will likely stop and these item tournaments will begin to cease. Competitive players want a fair one-on-one match, you want a party game. We will never join tournaments for Mario Party (although the game is fun).

To Dantesmash7, I just have to say. Going to the hornets’ nest isn’t easy. I can see that a lot of people in this thread do the following “Don’t answer this troll”.

But right there, they have just showed that they are trolls. The fact is the thread is 21 pages strong. I think that’s more contribution than the troll above this post. And others in general. Even I. But I just joined so what’s your excuse. Keep strong and give me a shout out. If you can train me as well. Am fu.cking down son.

Of course people will find him to be a troll and of course he will be responded with trolling. Welcome to the internet. The problem is that within these 21 pages he has only been able to reasonably respond to these trolls. No matter how many vital issues we can bring to his attention that has to do with the tournament scene, he either never responds or says,"Learn to adapt," or "You have Bomb Trauma." These are only attempts at dodging important issues. The fact is that items kill you. You can't stop it and you can't "adapt" to it. It should be the player who kills you (or doesn't), not coincidence. If you can come up with a way to prove this is FAIR, then you MAY have a better argument.

And if you respond, "Well it's the whole match that counts, not that single stock," then why is it fair that they get full use of 5 stocks while I only get 4? The competitive game is about overcoming your opponent, not gaining an unfair advantage over them or having to combat an opponent with an unfair advantage over you. While that may be fun in party games, it is not (and never will be) what we want in our competitive scene.

I played once in BIN and it was okay. Very grassroots. Props baby! I want to see some major changes and hopefully some insane tense item battles. BABY, am down to fu.cking adapt. That’s how we do.

Not to be mean, but it seems to me an IP check needs to be run to see if this is the same person as DanteSmash7. The account was obviously just made, you clearly have the same attitude in your posting, you do the same profanity filter dodge, use unnecessary amounts of periods, say that random, unfair situations are about "adapting" (even though random CANNOT be adapted to), and have the same minor grammatical inconsistencies (Such as "None item users," "That's how we do," and "I play professional up in NY."). This has just been sticking out to me as I read this and was the main reason I wanted to respond.

 

[Iwan]

You're right topic creator...melee logic doesn't carry over to brawl.

But that has nothing to do with items working in brawl or not. The truth is, items have absolutely no place in brawl on a competitive level. And guess what? It DOESN'T take more skill. It becomes less about the fighting mechanics and more about "a race to grab the best item that randomly drops from the sky on random parts of the map at random times".

Key word: random.
I could type for a half hour and shoot down any of your "logic" or "rationalization" (which you don't do...anywhere in your post). But that's such a waste of time, because when it comes down to it, just THINK about what you're saying.

Point is, items are too random...and a random factor doesn't belong in competitive gaming. If you think so, then you just don't understand competitive gaming.

 

[Spellman]

Of course people will find him to be a troll and of course he will be responded with trolling. Welcome to the internet. The problem is that within these 21 pages he has only been able to reasonably respond to these trolls. No matter how many vital issues we can bring to his attention that has to do with the tournament scene, he either never responds or says,"Learn to adapt," or "You have Bomb Trauma." These are only attempts at dodging important issues. The fact is that items kill you. You can't stop it and you can't "adapt" to it. It should be the player who kills you (or doesn't), not coincidence. If you can come up with a way to prove this is FAIR, then you MAY have a better argument.

If you agree to an items match, then you've agreed that everything in the items match that could ever happen no matter how one sided it is, is fair. Poker is fair. Plinko is fair. As long as I'm not tieing you up to a chair and forcing you to play the game, it is fair.

It's personal preference and if games of chance and probability can even be skewed by skill, then it can be in this game.

It's just if you choose to do it or not. You choose a sterile environment for matches, and people should totally respect that. But putting yourself up on a pedestal of skill superiority is not cool, when people are trying to develop another type of skill.

I don't think I should have to explain again why Smash Bros. is nothing like Mario Party.

 

[Crappular]

I'll get right on trying to adapt to the bomb that spawns right in front of my smash. Surely, I'll be able to teach myself to make myself a time machine, use it to go back in time, and warn myself not to attack at exactly that moment.

Seriously, though, stop your bull****. You reason worse than the girl in my school who has been unfortunately stricken with Downs Syndrome.