So I was browsing SRK forums (You guys should read this thread)

[cemo]

And I came across this little tidbit, which I felt relevant.

There's a few arguments people try to use to argue in favor of having difficult execution in games:

1. "It differentiates the good players from the bad players!"

Some people seem incredibly insecure that without their advantage of god-like execution to cling onto, scrubs will be storming the high-level castle in force, turning fighting games into an egalitarian fairyland where everyone is equal. Funnily enough it never seems to be good players saying this, for obvious reasons; there is far, far more that distinguishes good players from bad than who has the better execution. If scrubs could execute everything just as perfectly as master players, they would still lose every game. And if that's not the case, or the dominance factor is decreased? So be it! That dominance was based on bull****, arbitrary, uninteresting tests of manual skill! If you want to see that kind of dominance again, encourage developers to make even deeper strategic games!

Thread linked here.


fo serious guys stop complaining

 

[DragonBlade]

I think the issue that veteran players are complaining about is not difficulty of execution. It does not matter to us if "noobs" have a easier time playing the game. The problem is theres no reason to take out options and depth from the game in order to make technique execution easier. Primarily, its really the mastery of more techniques that separates the good players from the bad, and defines each player's unique play style. Without a good amount of depth and options, battles will just become bland.

 

[jdub03]

well we dont have to worry too much. They're already fiinding new techniques that will replace the old. Hopefully brawl can last as long as melee did. If not we can still go back to melee.

 

[FalseFalco]

It all boils down to 1 simple equation.

Weak mindgames=You die like the rest

The aspects of the game don't even matter.

 

[Kio Iranez]

Tactics and Mindgames are what matter most.

 

[Japanese Monk]

A good player shouldn't be worried...Only n00bs who THINK they are good are the ones that are upset...

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Quote from M2K:

people who like mindgame characters are those who didn't work their *** off for years to get good tech skill, so having the game slower is a big blow to us

and having no wavedashing hurts me the 2nd most of all the top pros, right behind Chu.

Listen to him. It's true.

 

[Japanese Monk]

I can somewhat understand because I dont know WHY they did it. They could have left it in...it wasnt something that needed to be removed.

Me though...Im a smash bros FAN. Not just a melee fan. I love both the games. So if WD is out....no prob, because I loved SSB64 almost as much as melee.

But again, new techniques are being found so chill out. Ink Drop seems like it might be VERY intereting.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

This is what Scar says, and truer words have rarely been spoken:

I am going to speak for all of us "Pros." Here is the deal.

We care that WD/L-cancelling/everything may be gone because we worked at this game. It is not an easy game to get good at, and it requires time. All of us "pros" worked, some harder than others, and now we are better than all of you scrubs.

We really don't have a problem with you. You guys are cool, and in fact necessary to feed our egos and make us elite in a sense. I personally can enjoy a 4 player melee every once in a while, and hell, at some point we have said, "Let's turn items on!"

Our problem is when you say things like "**** melee" or "wavedashing is a glitch" or "you guys aren't good without those things." This is just all of you scrubs trying to explain to yourselves why it doesn't matter that I can 4-stock you on a bad day. You're not even really talking to us, because if you were you would know that we have been there and overcome it.

If you guys had shut up and stopped whining and actually worked at the game, you probably would have gotten good at it.

I respect your decision, o scrub, to have a life and only get marginally better. Just don't whine about it, and understand that you have accepted to forever be unsuited for a competitive environment.

Enjoy your game, and I will enjoy mine. Don't cheapen my efforts/successes as a tournament-level player. My response will forever be that you are lazy, whiny, jealous, scrubby, stupid, and bad at Smash. These are all insulting, so don't provoke that response.

 

[TomGoblaski]

Having techs such as WD and Lcanceling did not dismantle the playing field. The Field was still level, it just opened up more opprotunities. It really comes down to ability and practice. A player not using advanced techs is the same as someone not using peachs down Smash, or fox's laser, or any other move for that matter. If I am better than you, it is more or less because I am more skilled, not only b/c I use WD and L-cancel.

Therefore in Brawl, I feel like the same people who are good, will put in the time and be just as good. Its relatively similar, in my eyes, to the Poker revolution in the past 5 years. There were the greats who were winning and making it to the final table. As books began coming out, and thousands and thousands of new entrants played, the veterans were still placing in the top.

 

[NES n00b]

I think the issue that veteran players are complaining about is not difficulty of execution. It does not matter to us if "noobs" have a easier time playing the game. The problem is theres no reason to take out options and depth from the game in order to make technique execution easier. Primarily, its really the mastery of more techniques that separates the good players from the bad, and defines each player's unique play style. Without a good amount of depth and options, battles will just become bland.

God, why can't anybody understand this view. Thank you. Gah.

It can't be that hard right?

 

[rev]

i simply think any ****** that comes here to bash on wavedashing came to the wrong place to do it. Couldn't agree more with M2K.

You play the game on the basic fun level its at. (Which has only improved in brawl)
(think tee-ball)

While we like to play it in the same concept, you make a mistake, you get punished, just on a higher level, with more options to choose from while in combat.(Which FOR NOW, has been pwned)
(think baseball in high heels)
------------------------------- thats my nice stuff

PS. All of us who have choose to strive at this level of play have done so because its more entertaining and more fun for us. If we are pissed they took them out, let us, being that you have never been in the tourney scene you wouldn't know ****.

PSS. The advanced tech in melee are amazingly put together(Accident or not). AMAZINGLY. If you don't understand that, it's because you simply DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE GAME.

but i think brawl is going to be great, with or without Advanced techs



(on side note, this board is almost one of the only places i see bashing on advanced techs. I think its because the people that don't do them, yet still come to this board to talk, are those ones that have only played with a group of 20 friends and think they pwn all. whos been there? ME!!! while the ones who have done them, of course understand)

all in all, who gives a **** what they think, and I can't wait to find new ones in brawl just to make their buttholes pucker.

 

[po pimpus]

UGH. For God's Sake... If M2K/ChuDat/your momma/whoever feels like they need wavedashing and l-cancelling, then stick with Melee! It's that simple... Brawl is its own game, as was the original SSB and Melee before it.

Anyone who wanted Melee 2.0 is just going to have to cry a river, build a bridge, and get over it. It seems to me that the development team seems pretty focused on fixing the things that needed fixing. Obviously, it looks like Sakurai and his team believed that wavedashing had to go. It's not as HUGE a loss as people are making it out to be.

All this whining and worrying over a short 2-minute demo that doesn't even scratch the surface of the immense game that Brawl is... I expected better of you, Smashboards...

 

[streetsk8er158]

when something becomes more work than fun its not a game anymore and I dont recall anyones 9 to 5 being smash brothers

 

[GaryCXJk]

In all seriousness, WDing should never have been an excuse to lose a match.

 

[Kirby knight]

I think the issue that veteran players are complaining about is not difficulty of execution. It does not matter to us if "noobs" have a easier time playing the game. The problem is theres no reason to take out options and depth from the game in order to make technique execution easier. Primarily, its really the mastery of more techniques that separates the good players from the bad, and defines each player's unique play style. Without a good amount of depth and options, battles will just become bland.

I have no idea why they're complaining. It's so stupid to be judging a game like this right now; it's borderline on scrub behavior. Tell me, did everyone who played melee figure out how deep it was going to be the very first day they played it? Let alone judging a demo when it's not even the full version of the game.

People should reserve their full judgements of Brawl untill it's release (Feb,10) then if they have complaints then; they would have warrant to have them.

-Knight

 

[Mama]

i simply think any ****** that comes here to bash on wavedashing came to the wrong place to do it. Couldn't agree more with M2K.

You play the game on the basic fun level its at. (Which has only improved in brawl)
(think tee-ball)

While we like to play it in the same concept, you make a mistake, you get punished, just on a higher level, with more options to choose from while in combat.(Which FOR NOW, has been pwned)
(think baseball in high heels)
------------------------------- thats my nice stuff

PS. All of us who have choose to strive at this level of play have done so because its more entertaining and more fun for us. If we are pissed they took them out, let us, being that you have never been in the tourney scene you wouldn't know ****.

PSS. The advanced tech in melee are amazingly put together(Accident or not). AMAZINGLY. If you don't understand that, it's because you simply DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT THE GAME.

but i think brawl is going to be great, with or without Advanced techs



(on side note, this board is almost one of the only places i see bashing on advanced techs. I think its because the people that don't do them, yet still come to this board to talk, are those ones that have only played with a group of 20 friends and think they pwn all. whos been there? ME!!! while the ones who have done them, of course understand)

all in all, who gives a **** what they think, and I can't wait to find new ones in brawl just to make their buttholes pucker.

I agree with you on everything for the most part. I just don't think Brawl will lack depth simply because the things that gave Melee its depth are different now. Wave Dashing may be gone but that is not the end of the advanced play nor does that mean that Brawl will lack depth. As you said in your last sentence. Brawl is bound to have far more marvelous things that will make us look back at Melee similarly to the way we look at Smash64 now.

"A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Let’s consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play “for fun” and not explore the extremities of the game. They won’t find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they’ll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he’s again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic."

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

In all seriousness, WDing should never have been an excuse to lose a match.

Lol seriously. You never ever hear "Dang I didn't wave dash out of that attack fast enough" or "I couldn't space my attack correctly because I messed up my wave dash nor do people really think that. (I hope). I think that it may be missed by some but for the most part it will be replaced many times over.

 

[Cyntalan Maelstrom]

The problem is judging the game before it's even COMPLETED. We're playing a demo here. Hell, we aren't even playing it. A select few are. I mean, within 1 day of playing this demo, while a lot of current ATs from Melee are gone, someone's already gone and found a trick that could have potential to add depth in a new way. Come launch? A year from launch? All that time, people sitting down and seeing what makes the game tick will decide on the games depth, not the game's ability to be Melee w/ more characters. We may get a game that's just as deep, or heaven forbid, DEEPER in spite of the game not being Melee. As much as this game was anticipated, I don't think it was intended to replace Melee. Did SF3 replace SF2? Hell no. They coexist, and they're COMPLETELY different games, with a lot of functions absent from one another. What about King of Fighters? The series gets heavily played for '98, 2k2, 2k3, and XI. They are all played and enjoyed, even though they're very similar games. One can't expect a fighter's to be a replacement unless it is explicitly designed to do so (see every revision of SF2, WW, CE, HF, Super, ST).

 

[maximus]

I would have to agree that the extrication of the wavedashing maneuver will not limit the depth of this game, should its removal occur at all. Personally, I wavedash and all that, but I've been beaten by guys who never wavedash... and then there are players like Aniki who don't wavedash at all, by choice, and still dominate on the tourney scene... I don't know; I can't be sure, as the game is neither complete nor have I played the demo, but I do know that I still enjoy SSB64, and wavedashing IS "impossible" in the original Smash Bros. So I'm not too disappointed at all, really.

 

[Grandeza]

spamspamspam

 

[joeysmash]

I have never used washdashing and i am a GOOD smash player. maybe not as good as those who use it, but i am pretty sure if your could with wavedashing, you can adapt and be good without it.

 

[SubparSmashBrother]

If wavedashing is gone, noobs will be better and could beat pros at tournaments. Essentially, the only thing seperating noobs and pros is mindgames, which are banned at tournies anyway, which means it will come down to the most technical player. But it'll be easy to be good technically because of leather recovery auto edge crab.

 

[Takalth]

UGH. For God's Sake... If M2K/ChuDat/your momma/whoever feels like they need wavedashing and l-cancelling, then stick with Melee! It's that simple... Brawl is its own game, as was the original SSB and Melee before it.

Anyone who wanted Melee 2.0 is just going to have to cry a river, build a bridge, and get over it. It seems to me that the development team seems pretty focused on fixing the things that needed fixing. Obviously, it looks like Sakurai and his team believed that wavedashing had to go. It's not as HUGE a loss as people are making it out to be.

All this whining and worrying over a short 2-minute demo that doesn't even scratch the surface of the immense game that Brawl is... I expected better of you, Smashboards...

You're not the only offender, but certainly the most obvious one in this thread.

Show me the posts where people are saying that Brawl will suck or that it won't be competitive. You'll have to search long and hard to find them.

Now, you will see a lot of posts where people are concerned about whether Brawl will have the competitive depth of Melee. They use the information that they have to speculate on what appears likely (and if you don't like speculating, you shouldn't be posting in the Brawl section).

And, of course, you greatly weaken your position with the completely uninformed comment "Obviously, it looks like Sakurai and his team believed that wavedashing had to go." Do you honestly think that Sakurai made a huge change on how everybody will play the game simply to kill wavedashing? He changed the air combat enormously and removal of wavedashing is simply a side effect. Sure, it's possible that they wanted to remove wavedashing, but your use of the word "obviously" suggests that you think they made this change specifically to remove it.

"We decided to take jumping out of the game."
"See everyone!! Proof that they'll do whatever it takes to eliminate wavedashing."


Competitive players are simply discussing whether the game will have as much depth as melee (regardless of what form that depth takes). If you can make a case for or against that, join in our conversations. If all you want to do is attack people who like deeper games, go do something else.