So I hear that the nerfs are coming.

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

I saw this coming. And I'm not exactly happy about it.

The only nerf that I really keep hearing about is added startup to boomerang.

But why nerf a projectile that loses to literally ANY hitbox that's not multi-hit?

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

[Fenrir VII]

Boomerang is BRUTAL against certain chars (DK, Ganon, ZSS, etc etc etc) and USELESS against others (Spacies, MK, Sheik).
I wish the PMBR would figure out a way to just adjust it so it's not broken, but at least somewhat useful in most matchups.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Boomerang is BRUTAL against certain chars (DK, Ganon, ZSS, etc etc etc) and USELESS against others (Spacies, MK, Sheik).
I wish the PMBR would figure out a way to just adjust it so it's not broken, but at least somewhat useful in most matchups.

I know this may be hard to believe, but the Ganon is the only character you mentioned who has a hard time with the rang.

He doesn't have any solid normals to stuff rang. He can only shield.

Just as an example of my point: DK's active frames on all of his normals eat the boomerang and can still hit people.

And the MU's where you think rang is bad happen to be the best MUs to use it. (At least in My experience)

The fact still remains that the rang has very little priority. (Which I'm 1000% fine with)

It's not some GOD projectile like people seem to think.

I'm just tired of getting used to a new character every time the PMBR wants to "tweak" Link.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

I still firmly believe that the ONLY people who think boomerang is OP are the people who get hit by it all the time.

 

[standardtoaster]

edit your post instead of posting immediately after

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

edit your post instead of posting immediately after

Noted.

My bad.

 

[Vidiot825]

I'm a link main in PM and I hear where you're coming from.

What most people don't take into account is that the boomerang isn't just a projectile; it's also a combo extender as well as a guarantee into most of Link's killing setups at relatively mid percents (let's say around 80% to be modest) such as his Dair or Fair
If used right by the player, the boomerang can potentially be used for a near 0 to death combo... though this is with tech chases using the boomerang itself and it's not totally easy.
The setups mentioned work on almost every character in the game without any exception for the most part.

As for character matchups... I feel that Link doesn't do well on characters that get in his face... such as Fox or Sheik. But the boomerang can still combo them just as well mind you. As for boomerang on ganondorf... well he just can't handle projectiles for the most part, haha. As for other characters, the boomerang DOES force people to approach Link in a very specific way or else there is a chance of being heavily punished.

Do I think there should be a boomerang nerf? Not really, it's his way to control and to combo. If they are thinking of tweaking anything with Link it should be the downthrow downstab guaranteed setup (not saying that I would like that, but I feel that it's his only questionably cheapish move). But let's see where this leads us!

Hope this helps!

 

[Fenrir VII]

It doesn't really matter if a char can stuff the boomerang because you can just follow it or throw another one. The chars that are large enough to not be able to duck it and slow enough to not reliably punish it have a HARD time with it. Because sure, they can neutral destroy it... Then they have to do that 15 more times, unless link decides to punish the neutral with zair or something.

Now somebody like Fox can just bait it, avoid it, and punish, all while you're in cooldown. I personally think rang is super risky in the matchup, given fox's punishment options. Then MK and Sheik can just run under a horizontally thrown rang, which forces you to angle down for a neutral rang, which is MUCH easier to avoid. They're also fast enough to get those punishes.

Essentially, I think rang makes Link's good matchups better, and doesn't affect his bad matchups. I'd like to see some change that balances it a bit better

 

[Vidiot825]

I agree with the boomerang making some character matchups much harder (like the big characters you mentioned), but i'm not sure about how it would affect ZSS... i'd imagine a closer to even matchup than not. I still hold that ganondorf is probably the worst against link just due the fact that he can't handle projectiles whatsoever.

As for the characters that can run under the boomerang given the chance (aka fox, sheik, etc) the boomerang is far from useless. It's just that because they're harder targets you have to be a little bit more cautious in the matchup when you throw the boomerang. I've seen people go zero to death on link's bad matchups off of alternating reads with the boomerang and air attacks from link.

If the boomerang was slowed down as suggested, the larger characters would have a better time with link (making it potentially a more even match, hopefully), but link's bad matchups would be a bit harder due to some loss of stage control, especially since those characters are usually the ones that one up link with speed.

 

[Praxis]

What leads you to conclude that nerfs are coming?

 

[Wolf_]

If it's true, I have some faith that the PMBR will be smart about it

The thing is, I think they want to make it so characters aren't so easy to be good with, think about Fox, he's OP on paper but he's so damn hard to play that he never gets that far, and I think this is what Melee mains john about, it's not the characters so much as it is that they have to work so hard with their melee characters and some of the new players don't have to work nearly as much to get good results(Ivysaur Bair for days on ledge). I was talking to Emukiller at SKTAR and he said some of that fancy stuff he was doing was actually easy as all hell to do

So basically I'm all for making it harder to perform certain combos with characters, as in, making the timing more strict or making you space something better, I just hope the potential still stays to perform said combos, so when someone does pull them off it'll be all the more impressive, I don't think it would be bad if every character were designed like Fox, in the sense that it's hard to pull off the crazy **** but the potential is there and it's mad hype when someone gets it

Boomerang would be a tricky thing to tweak I think, if they add more lag anywhere it could cut out a good chunk of Link's combo and zoning game, ideally I think the combo potential should still be there, just harder to do, and trying to think of a way to do that is hard

Sorry for the rant, probably should've just kept my mouth shut lol

 

[Vidiot825]

If it's true, I have some faith that the PMBR will be smart about it

The thing is, I think they want to make it so characters aren't so easy to be good with, think about Fox, he's OP on paper but he's so damn hard to play that he never gets that far, and I think this is what Melee mains john about, it's not the characters so much as it is that they have to work so hard with their melee characters and some of the new players don't have to work nearly as much to get good results(Ivysaur Bair for days on ledge). I was talking to Emukiller at SKTAR and he said some of that fancy stuff he was doing was actually easy as all hell to do

So basically I'm all for making it harder to perform certain combos with characters, as in, making the timing more strict or making you space something better, I just hope the potential still stays to perform said combos, so when someone does pull them off it'll be all the more impressive, I don't think it would be bad if every character were designed like Fox, in the sense that it's hard to pull off the crazy **** but the potential is there and it's mad hype when someone gets it

Boomerang would be a tricky thing to tweak I think, if they add more lag anywhere it could cut out a good chunk of Link's combo and zoning game, ideally I think the combo potential should still be there, just harder to do, and trying to think of a way to do that is hard

Sorry for the rant, probably should've just kept my mouth shut lol

Well said (and rant well deserved btw). The game is in its final stages, and tweaking the characters to make the roster more truly balanced is where its headed. Can't wait and see what they come up with, haha.

 

[Angrycuban]

Try playing peach against a link that knows what hes doing then tell me he doesn't deserve a nerf or two...

 

[Praxis]

I actually think Link is probably the best in the game (or at least top three with Lucas and Fox), but not by enough of a margin that he needs to be nerfed. People are so fast to want things nerfed and IMO that's an extreme thing. I can see minor, minor nerfs (knockback or adding a couple frames of lag to a getup attack or something) but I really hope the next update leaves all good characters as is and just buffs the bottom.

 

[Angrycuban]

I actually think Link is probably the best in the game (or at least top three with Lucas and Fox), but not by enough of a margin that he needs to be nerfed. People are so fast to want things nerfed and IMO that's an extreme thing.

I agree, i hate this character more than any other in the game by far but still the meta game is not very developed so if they do tweek things id like to see small tweeks to SLIGHTLY nerf the top tiers (a few frames of end lag on boomarang or a few less active frames of up b on link would be good enough for me) and small tweeks to buff the mid-low tiers (Peach could use a little more range on Fair in this game, the melee range doesn't really cut it anymore) but in general the game is very undeveloped and tech could come out any day that drastically shake up tier lists.

 

[Wolf_]

Try playing peach against a link that knows what hes doing then tell me he doesn't deserve a nerf or two...

But that's just a bad matchup.... even in a fully balanced game there will still be bad matchups... I think so anyways, I think it would be impossible to make every matchup even, if you buff or nerf to appease one matchup, it will have adverse effects on another

Honestly you'll need more than 1 character for PM in the end I think

And if anything I thought people would be saying Mewtwo is OP after the crazy **** Emukiller pulled, he told me all the fancy stuff he did wasn't even hard to do lol

 

[Fenrir VII]

No link player has proven that Link is broken yet. that's my personal problem with the idea of nerfs. Yes link is a great char, but the results aren't there for him yet.

I personally think that the discrepancy is that Link is BRUTAL against bad players, players who don't know the matchup, and players of 3-4 chars that have close to unwinnable matchups against him (which ironically is MOST Smash players who post on the boards). Against the better/smarter players and worse matchups, Link's weaknesses (namely easiness to combo, gimpable recovery, and poor OOS options) really show up.

I kind of attribute this to how some of the best Link players tend to place top 10 and top 20 at larger events, and not take the win.

I'll be the first to admit he has some stupid stuff... but I'm really starting to doubt that whole "top 3 char" idea... he probably has one of the best matchup spreads in the game (no real bad ones and a bunch of really good ones), but I think he has legitimate issues playing at the top level of the game.

Honestly I think his Melee equivalent might be Peach... without Fox and possibly Marth, Peach would be at least in contention for the top char in Melee, and she TROUNCES the chars below her, but the top few will always keep her down.

 

[Praxis]

But that's just a bad matchup.... even in a fully balanced game there will still be bad matchups... I think so anyways, I think it would be impossible to make every matchup even, if you buff or nerf to appease one matchup, it will have adverse effects on another

Honestly you'll need more than 1 character for PM in the end I think

And if anything I thought people would be saying Mewtwo is OP after the crazy **** Emukiller pulled, he told me all the fancy stuff he did wasn't even hard to do lol

Everyone is super whiny in PM. I'm a Diddy main, and you have no idea how much Nerf Diddy crap I hear, when Diddy doesn't place and IMO isn't top ten (Link, Lucas, Pit, Marth, spacies, Mewtwo are eight characters that are better than him at minimum, Snake, MK and Mario might be better too).

I think Link is top three but I'm not seeing placings there either. I don't see any character particularly dominating PM and each region has a ton of diversity. I think PMBR should buff weak characters and leave good ones where they are. Maybe add a couple frames endlag to a couple things (say, Diddy's up B landing, Link's boomerang throw) to satiate whiners and call it good.


Also, what you described about Link is super true about Diddy. People think he's OP until they realize that the high speed of this game makes it possible to put Diddy in a position where he can't pull a banana without getting punished for it or letting you have his other banana, which half the cast can use better than Diddy. Then they whine about his recovery, which he basically cannot sweetspot from a distance, but they think it's unstoppable because they jump out after it.

Diddy wrecks low/med level players and becomes pretty average at high level.

 

[Wolf_]

Yea it must be tough to choose how to tweak things, if they add ending lag to the boomerang, things like Rang -> Fair might become impossible which is really useful in a lot of matchups, ideally if they need to put more lag on it, I think the current combos should work but just be harder to perform.

Everyone thinks Dthrow -> Dair is EZ mode in every matchup but actually it's kinda hard to do, you have to time very specifically when you start a run to chase the other player cause if you screw it up, you'll just turn around or walk instead of run and then you won't have the momentum to carry you to get the hit, it's especially hard when you have to factor in character weights and when exactly you can act out of a throw

 

[Fenrir VII]

So I've said what I think... that Link really shouldn't be nerfed with the current cast and placings. HOWEVER, I do have some ideas that wouldn't just break the character if they were chosen...

1. add 5-10 frames of lag to a missed grab
2. do the same for dair's landing lag
3. add 3-10 frames of lag where if you catch the boomerang, you can't throw it back out again (essentially don't register it's "back" for slightly longer)

Those 3 things wouldn't necessarily take anything from the character other than Rang shield pressure, but it would add risk to his entire playstyle and definitely hurt him.

I really don't want a recovery nerf again.

 

[Vidiot825]

Link is a great character overall and like you guys said, he has a bunch of really good matchups, but not really too many bad ones. I see him in top 10 for sure, but where he is placed is up for grabs since the top 10 in PM seem to contend with each other pretty well.

Whatever the PM board is doing will probably be well warranted. My best guess would be a few frames of lag between boomerang throws (thus taking away the fact that he can throw it IMMEDIATELY after catching it giving him a boomerang barrage that's tough to get by usually). This would keep his combo game the same... but make following up a little more difficult (which might be warranted, but's lets see).

Either that or tweaking the downgrab --> dair, which i personally think he deserves if so many people in the cast have killing grabs themselves. But yea, one or the other. I think that anything other than those would be too drastic a change to players that already have been using link for this long.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Personally, I think Link is one of the few characters in the game that is perfect where he is (Both in strengths and weaknesses) and should not change for better or for worse.

His character design is that of a character that excels at mid to long range, while not having many strong options up close.

And yes, Link is a very strong hitter. But many of his up close options are easy to stuff.

And let's be real here. A lot of his strong options are justified by the fact that his grab is NOT very good.

He can't grab opponents that are not grounded, unless his hand is involved. And you never want to be in the area where his hand is.

 

[Wolf_]

Boomerang is a tough topic, it's detrimental to use in some matchups like Marth and Fox, and hell Chu's Kirby would float around all my projectiles and wait for the right moment to go in with a Nair that hit me cause I was in endlag, but it's also spammable in certain matchups without any risk, so do we call it matchups or just broken?

 

[Deleted member]

Boomerang is a tough topic, it's detrimental to use in some matchups like Marth and Fox, and hell Chu's Kirby would float around all my projectiles and wait for the right moment to go in with a Nair that hit me cause I was in endlag, but it's also spammable in certain matchups without any risk, so do we call it matchups or just broken?

it's all match ups. characters that get wrecked alone by boomerang also get stomped on by snake/falco/any other zoning character

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Boomerang is a tough topic, it's detrimental to use in some matchups like Marth and Fox, and hell Chu's Kirby would float around all my projectiles and wait for the right moment to go in with a Nair that hit me cause I was in endlag, but it's also spammable in certain matchups without any risk, so do we call it matchups or just broken?

Matchups.

 

[Deleted member]

the only fraudulent thing i've encountered with the boomerang is the fact that you can - retreating, SH, anti-air, up-forward rang > SH B-reverse upward rang > full hop Fair, and its a kill combo on mid to floaty characters.

it looks super cool, but its not really useful. the spacing on it is ******** and its not practical, but when you hit that combo your opponent instantly starts calling for nerfs

 

[l3thargy]

the only fraudulent thing i've encountered with the boomerang is the fact that you can - retreating, SH, anti-air, up-forward rang > SH B-reverse upward rang > full hop Fair, and its a kill combo on mid to floaty characters.

it looks super cool, but its not really useful. the spacing on it is ******** and its not practical, but when you hit that combo your opponent instantly starts calling for nerfs

do you have a vid of this by any chance? I'd like to see it in action :D

 

[Vidiot825]

Boomerang is a tough topic, it's detrimental to use in some matchups like Marth and Fox, and hell Chu's Kirby would float around all my projectiles and wait for the right moment to go in with a Nair that hit me cause I was in endlag, but it's also spammable in certain matchups without any risk, so do we call it matchups or just broken?

Link can actually use the boomerang to combo fox to heavy percents if done right; I would think it's anything but detrimental here, but does have to be used in a smarter fashion against fox (and other speedy characters for that matter). And in regards to Marth, I can see where you're coming from, but I feel that's more matchup oriented than having to do with the boomerang itself.

As far as I've seen people say that the combo potential isn't the problem; it's the control the boomerang exerts on the stage while it's out. The boomerang controls a wide amount of space and potentially limit's opponents approach options because of the fact that it hits when it comes back as well, often making the methods used to approach link predictable, especially since the rate of consecutive boomerang throws is so fast currently.

Any thoughts?

 

[Nemiak temp]

Link can actually use the boomerang to combo fox to heavy percents if done right; I would think it's anything but detrimental here, but does have to be used in a smarter fashion against fox (and other speedy characters for that matter). And in regards to Marth, I can see where you're coming from, but I feel that's more matchup oriented than having to do with the boomerang itself.

As far as I've seen people say that the combo potential isn't the problem; it's the control the boomerang exerts on the stage while it's out. The boomerang controls a wide amount of space and potentially limit's opponents approach options because of the fact that it hits when it comes back as well, often making the methods used to approach link predictable, especially since the rate of consecutive boomerang throws is so fast currently.

Any thoughts?

Boomerang doesn't control **** for space against fox. He can just DD until you throw it then jump over/run under and punish before link can do anything.

 

[Deleted member]

Boomerang doesn't control **** for space against fox. He can just DD until you throw it then jump over/run under and punish before link can do anything.

you're using it wrong.

 

[Wolf_]

you're using it wrong.

He plays fox lol and I'd have to more agree with him since I actually do well against spacies, you don't really want to use the boomerang much in that matchup

EDIT: Also, I find boomerang pretty useless against ROB, Squirtle and Zelda as well, I can understand the complaints from characters who have no way of dealing with boomerang (like Peach) but overall I'm not sure it's really all that crazy, idk I might be wrong

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

He plays fox lol and I'd have to more agree with him since I actually do well against spacies, you don't really want to use the boomerang much in that matchup

EDIT: Also, I find boomerang pretty useless against ROB, Squirtle and Zelda as well, I can understand the complaints from characters who have no way of dealing with boomerang (like Peach) but overall I'm not sure it's really all that crazy, idk I might be wrong

No, overall you're PRETTY spot-on.

 

[Deleted member]

He plays fox lol and I'd have to more agree with him since I actually do well against spacies, you don't really want to use the boomerang much in that matchup

EDIT: Also, I find boomerang pretty useless against ROB, Squirtle and Zelda as well, I can understand the complaints from characters who have no way of dealing with boomerang (like Peach) but overall I'm not sure it's really all that crazy, idk I might be wrong

if you play the match up right, you play at mid range where boomerang is safe. at that range pulling a bomb is safe, this means if he tries to close the gap he gets tagged by a bomb and the returning boomerang puts him in a terrible position to eat frame traps.

hitting with the boomerang isn't even all that important because the returning boomerang usually sets up even more options

 

[Fenrir VII]

I'll definitely second the sentiment that Rang is bad vs Fox.

I'm not saying DON'T throw it out if you have a chance, but in a neutral situation, a good Fox will eat you up for throwing rang or pulling a bomb.

Essentially, rang is VERY risky against characters who are fast enough to get around it and punish before you can react. This includes Fox, Sheik, MK, even CF, etc.

 

[Vidiot825]

Against spacies the rang shouldn't be meant to start combos all the time, but to continue combos usually. The fact that fox can run in and punish link as he throws it and potentially misses IS a big problem for link (but it's well deserved since his character design plays a heavy distance game in the first place). Link's bread and butter in that match up are his running attack up tilt, which after a few hits of combo (yes fast fallers WILL get stuck in it) you can continue that into a boomerang followed by the attack of your choice (leading to... lets say an 80 damage combo at least). Off of personal experience, Link tends to body spacies once he gets a hit in, but the problem is getting that hit in in the first place. And if you want to use the boomerang to control space don't throw it at people directly all the time, instead throw it behind them to mix it up. You'd be surprised how much the return animation is helpful while pressuring and being pressured. And most importantly try and grab... if you can get the read that is. Link goes ridiculously far off his grabs if you can convert. If you play it right, you can usually catch an opponent rolling away or dodging the boomerang return, so that should make grabbing a little easier besided the tech chase.

As for Rob, Zelda, and Squirtle.... they're pretty annoying. Rob and Zelda I tend to use the claw shot in the air more because it can't be reflected and pops them up for a down stab at mid percent (which has a chance at KO). Squirtle is just annoying because he's short, but I think he can be grabbed out of his side b. Also, i'm pretty such link's nair out prioritizes all of squirtles attacks that hit you head on.

I'm a Link and Falco main (carried over from melee) and i actually think it's an even if not bad match up for spacies against link (fox tends to do better than falco due to the speed of approach). I play against a stupidly good link in my area with my falco, and I tend to get bodied by single hits to near death all the time and eventually switch back to link so that matchup is more even. But that's just my own experience to say the least.

Hope these hints help a bit

 

[Wolf_]

I'll definitely second the sentiment that Rang is bad vs Fox.

I'm not saying DON'T throw it out if you have a chance, but in a neutral situation, a good Fox will eat you up for throwing rang or pulling a bomb.

Essentially, rang is VERY risky against characters who are fast enough to get around it and punish before you can react. This includes Fox, Sheik, MK, even CF, etc.

I forgot about C. Falcon, his Nair just plows through boomerang and the 2nd kick hits Link

I do love to abuse boomerang against people who don't know how to deal with it though

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Tbh, I'd trade 3.0 boomerang for better mobility and faster speed overall. If they want to "fix" Link, make him a "real" character. Give him a better wavedash (less friction and less startup frames on jump animation), better dash dance (faster and longer dash), just better fundamentals for the character overall, so that the player can be more rewarded for their fundamental skills. I'll admit, Link can be easy-mode, autopilot, and he doesn't have to move much to combo, lol.

On the other hand, if they just nerf boomerang (especially as a KO setup), that's gonna be a big deal, as that's taking away a reliable KO option (his best one at that). Boomerang pretty much covers how slow Link is, and with the nerf, it's going be easier to get in on Link and pressure him. So yeah, Link's design overall is decent, but his attributes (overall range increase and boomerang properties) are great. As the metagame progresses, I think Link actually gets worse as more players figure out ways around Link's tools. It would only be a matter of time. Link reminds me of Snake in Brawl: great at the start of the metagame, but gets progressively worse when players learn to exploit his glaring weaknesses.
/my2rupees

 

[Vidiot825]

Tbh, I'd trade 3.0 boomerang for better mobility and faster speed overall. If they want to "fix" Link, make him a "real" character. Give him a better wavedash (less friction and less startup frames on jump animation), better dash dance (faster and longer dash), just better fundamentals for the character overall, so that the player can be more rewarded for their fundamental skills. I'll admit, Link can be easy-mode, autopilot, and he doesn't have to move much to combo, lol.

On the other hand, if they just nerf boomerang (especially as a KO setup), that's gonna be a big deal, as that's taking away a reliable KO option (his best one at that). Boomerang pretty much covers how slow Link is, and with the nerf, it's going be easier to get in on Link and pressure him. So yeah, Link's design overall is decent, but his attributes (overall range increase and boomerang properties) are great. As the metagame progresses, I think Link actually gets worse as more players figure out ways around Link's tools. It would only be a matter of time. Link reminds me of Snake in Brawl: great at the start of the metagame, but gets progressively worse when players learn to exploit his glaring weaknesses.
/my2rupees

Agreed, his game is pretty solid, though I don't see him getting any worse per say. Links meta game is still in development itself, so everything is still up in the air. (I have a 13 y.o who has developed a link that goes for 80+ damage combos that include some commanding stage control, I can't wait to see what he can do in the competitive scene this summer :-) )

Personally, I feel that his current speed is ideal, especially with the ranging and combo game at the moment, and shouldn't be changed. He's honestly not a slow character per say, he's just one with very limited up close options, which are well warranted considering his play style.

As for glaring weaknesses... Try sheiks throws; she has the option to chain grab off of an improper Di and the option to combo off of any DI that link implements (except at lowest percents).
Other than that I feel he doesn't have any other glaring weakness and is pretty solid.

 

[Nemiak temp]

Even if Rang is "safe" in mid range it doesn't do much against fox except setup a situational shield pressure scenario with the return. Jab > Rang

 

[J3f]

I still feel that PM tier list follows melees, because Fox's (and other top tiers) meta has changed much since melee and so all the melee veterans are really good with those characters and skew the tier list. There is still some upsets every now and then but I don't see Link dominating the tournament scene. I don't want to see any changes made to characters so early unless it's really needed (Zelda).