So I finally played Brawl+ with people who are good and...

[_Yes!_]

wtf lol...

Falco is retardedly godlike, Fox can barely do anything from dair, and ganon and falcon still suck.

Falco shut down ganon completely just with shdl...did you guys buff him or something?

More thoughts when I wake up tomorrow.

 

[GHNeko]

SHDL is gone now so lol.

Also, being good in Smash doesnt mean you'll completely understand certain match ups and how to act in those situations.

 

[goodoldganon]

Ganondorf's major problem in Brawl+ is projectile spam so right off the bat Falco, Samus, Link and Toon Link are some of his worst matchups. He can work around most other projectiles by jabbing them, powershielding, and other smart approach tactics but those 4 will always be his worst matchups. But he also punishes harder then any other character.

What people in particular were giving Ganondorf trouble (besides Falco?) I personally find Dorf to be quite average. Just slightly above the middle mark.

Also, try the new Falcon in the latest nightly (hopefully you got the WBR nightly before playing tonight. Suck to play a ton and then have tons of new **** to learn the next day)

P.S. Got any vids for us? Just wondering.

 

[shanus]

The reason fox can't do anything from dair is utilt from backside, shine from front side which you can JC into another dair (sometimes), JC into a bair, fair, or upsmash. But you refuse to use that, so yeah.

 

[_Yes!_]

I used the latest nightly lol. I don't save vids xD

It wasn't my ganon it was inui's, which is good against not falco lol.

 

[Revven]

Yeah, SHFFL for Falco isn't in 8-15, however it is in the new official so I recommend you download that for next time.

Also, Inui's Ganon probably sucks, ZeonStar's is wayyyyyyy better.

 

[_Yes!_]

Inui's probably better than everyone in the back room. So is Atomsk.

 

[Revven]

So you're not even going to search ZeonStar on youtube? =\

Honestly, it just looks like to me that you're complaining about something you don't want to learn how to do well with so you can get Fox's old Dair back.

 

[g-regulate]

i dont think any characters are overpowered

 

[_Yes!_]

So you're not even going to search ZeonStar on youtube? =\

Honestly, it just looks like to me that you're complaining about something you don't want to learn how to do well with so you can get Fox's old Dair back.

Don't assume that I'm that selfish.

Come to btl2 so i can **** your ****

mm for any amount.

 

[shanus]

Don't assume that I'm that selfish.

Come to btl2 so i can **** your ****

mm for any amount.

Feel free to talk ****, but you still aren't willing to relarn fox wheereas he is more fun and more dynamic.

Come to ECRC5 or LLHS and ill fox ditto.

 

[_Yes!_]

4 hour drive = not worth it.

i have better things to do than argue with people so i'm done with this.

 

[_Yes!_]

rawr ignore my rage posts >.>

 

[Revven]

hey brah it's kewl just don't rage on people again. D:

u is scary when u rage.

 

[Veril]

Yes! , I'm planning on just bringing a ton of energy drinks and MMing with them. If you feel like MMing for a redbull, vs idk, being forced to listen to me geek out. I'll almost definitely lose but I've always wanted to play you, and lots of people... and I hate wifi.

Anyway, it really isn't fair to say that Inui's better than anyone in the br cause... Zeon isn't in the br lol (I think he should be personally)... but he knows Ganon really well in B+.

I don't want to get in the middle of this much. I'm just a research goon and I fear the rage ;p

i dont think any characters are overpowered

I agree for the most part. Some characters have qualities that are both very good and really annoying and worth changing.

OK, I really think we should act on Inui's and Yes!'s concerns by at the very least looking into Falco's lasers some more. I'll find the laser hitstun/lag/advantage values since I don't know much about that matchup (few ganons in NY) other than its super gay.

 

[Veril]

accidental double post

sorry

 

[CT Chia]

tbh i really dont see why people still think falcon is bad lol. hes one of the best imo

 

[GHNeko]

Falcon is mid tier son.

 

[JCaesar]

Falcon is top 5 now imo. Ness also. Ness is wtf O_o

Everyone who was at Hackfest will agree with me.

 

[VietGeek]

nah its because cks always in the red

ness wears red

has crap range

u know where this is goin

Spoiler

DJC made ness obnoxious like all the other little boys

 

[Revven]

Falcon is top 5 now imo. Ness also. Ness is wtf O_o

Everyone who was at Hackfest will agree with me.

I think everyone just needs to calm down and learn the match-up against Ness. Ness has a lot of blatant weaknesses that are actually a little similar to Jigglypuff.

1. Weak from below (meaning he's very susceptible to combos, the only thing he has to defend himself in the air is Nair).

2. Edgeguarded easily (no more infinite PKT1)

3. Knocked offstage quite easily (ties in with #1)

4. Lacks range (excluding Fair), meaning he gets ***** by several characters like Marth, DK, Wolf, and so forth.

5. Can't outcamp people who are better at camping than he is (i.e Wario).

When I played against Cape's Ness when he visited, that Ness we were playing with had stuff that was messed up so it didn't really count at all. But, even with the things that were wrong, I was still able to beat Cape's Ness with an unnerfed Wario. Those things that were messed up was Fair and PK Fire (PK Fire being unable to SDI and Fair being unable to SDI + combo into itself). I just think that, people need to calm down about Ness, realize he has legit weaknesses still and learn the match-up.

You said it yourself, there aren't enough Ness users in tourneys. So that's lack of experience.

Anyway WHY are we using this topic for Ness anyway!? @_@

 

[goodoldganon]

How come when I say to learn the matchup against characters no one listens but now everyone is using it to justify Ness?

P.S. Learn to fight Ness more. He and Yoshi are characters out of left field you never see but are real legit. I do think we probably buffed Ness more then he needed to be competitive but he's far from broken.

 

[GHNeko]

Yoshi Dair is more dumb with DJC.

I'm telling you guys. That dair falls into the category of Link's dtilt when the whole move was a spike.

 

[g-regulate]

is this a joke topic

 

[GHNeko]

...**** since when was g-reg in BR?

lmao.

 

[Isatis]

I think he's been in the WBR, just mindgamed us all by the username color lol

 

[GHNeko]

I remember us letting him in but he never says anything.

 

[g-regulate]

well i would say more, but i have little tournament experience to draw knowledge from, only been to like 3 singles tournaments. i personally think all the characters were decent and viable several versions ago, but still changes are made because of peoples "theories" without any kind of tournament proof. honestly i just like playing the game, ive found characters im comfortable with and im ready to win. i dont feel a need to balance the game more because i feel it's already balanced enough for me, i.e. i can win with several characters and have a solid main.

but anyway..... is this really a joke topic or does everyone single out a character that is "too good" and just complain about him, and thats how things get changed around here?

 

[Revven]

but anyway..... is this really a joke topic or does everyone single out a character that is "too good" and just complain about him, and thats how things get changed around here?

lol, Yes! didn't realize how to JC shine with Fox well enough so he thought that Fox was horrible and because Inui plays Ganon a certain way thinks Ganondorf isn't that good (even though recent videos from ZeonStar) show an otherwise brilliant way to play Ganondorf and place well (he placed at a decently sized Brawl+ tourney with at least 3 MKs in it in 5th, I don't have the results on me atm though).

How things are balanced are based on what a character can do. For instance, take a look at... DK. He hasn't been touched except for no fall special from neutral B. The reason for this is because DK has already proven to a lot of people that he can hold his own in plenty of different match-ups, has a solid combo game, and can kill well. His only troubles are that he has a pretty mediocre recovery, he's big, and can be beaten around a lot due to his weight and fatness. Despite those weaknesses, he can hold his own as I said. When you then look at say... Link, who previously couldn't really do much (this is talking from way back in the Spring) other than Jab cancel combos and maybe some juggling and Dair stuff and had huge glaring weaknesses (a worse vertical recovery than TL, combo'd and gimped easily, and can't combo into a KO move). We took what he had going for him, a decent ground game, and turned it into a much better ground game that relies on his jab cancels, Nair, Bair, Dthrow, and a few juggles here and there with some Dair combos mixed in.

When you throw all that in there, Link is golden, he now performs better in the match-ups where he didn't have the tools to do that well in and the tools to do better in match-ups that may have changed because X character does better in this environment than vBrawl. Link hasn't won any tournaments yet or placed very high (nobody uses him, just like nobody uses Ness) but, I bet you that if anyone used him, he could too place pretty well and take everyone by shock like Ness did.

At least, that's how I analyze when a character should get buffs. Bowser is a great example of a character who doesn't do well in very many match-ups and shows exactly what we aim to do for characters, as in, what we look at. Bowser is big, heavy, easy to gimp, and has a hard time comboing. So what you do is buff him in what makes him a heavyweight, a tank, and come up with some really cool ideas like flame cancel or crouch/crawling SA.

I hope that answered your question. It also goes by feedback from players and tournament results that show a recurring pattern. And, of course, getting feedback from mains of those characters helps us in which direction to go in with a character (although in some cases this really doesn't go over very well).

 

[JCaesar]

Link hasn't won any tournaments yet or placed very high (nobody uses him, just like nobody uses Ness) but, I bet you that if anyone used him, he could too place pretty well and take everyone by shock like Ness did.

Actually, Forte won the second MD/VA Brawl+ tournament (back in April or May I think) going all Link. No one there thought Link was broken. Forte just straight outplayed everyone.

I just don't feel that the same thing happened when CK used Ness at Hackfest. He has put literally years more work into his Marth (who, last I checked, was considered top 10 in Brawl+), yet he switched to Ness mid-tournament and suddenly starting doing much better.

Now I have to say, I don't think Ness is lol-Brawl-MK broken. I don't even think he's the best in Brawl+ right now. It's just that he used to be (arguably) in the bottom 3rd of the tier list, but he seems to have shot way up, well above the target DK-level of goodness that we were striving for for all characters. Again, just my opinion, but I'm sure most of the people who were at Hackfest would agree with me, even CK. I'm willing to bet that CK thinks that Ness is better than Marth now.

I'm not trying to point any fingers. I know sometimes we make changes with good intentions without knowing the full repercussions. I'm not even saying we should fix Ness right away. I'm fine with letting this set play out for a while. I just think that we should be careful with large balance changes. Seemingly small buffs like the ones to PK fire and fair and dthrow can end up making a big difference.

Anyway, I don't really wanna cause any drama. Let's just wait for the videos.

 

[shanus]

JCaesar, have you even looked at the numbers for Ness PK Fire to feel how silly that accusation is?

Right now, the entire move is 53.6 frames from an original 59. It is also SDIable compared to its former state. The start-up is 2 frames shorter. You have 35 frames to punish him on miss. How is that in any form broken? Its just mind baffling why people are pointing at PK fire when it is so punishable. In fact, we have -overall- nerfed his PK fire compared to vbrawl.


His fair is at 1x size, has hitlag and possibly a slightly too low SDI capacity. I could agree with boosting the KBG on it, but its size is pretty escapable, especially if you are on the ground when he uses it in a SH.

Dthrow - DI mix-ups can really mess with this, but I could see boosting the BKB a bit.

 

[Veril]

I think we're at the point where we can afford to wait and see in regards to all the characters being discussed. Its really easy, when discussing how stupid good character x is, to forget that we've got many characters with tons of visible potential that almost definitely hasn't been fully realized, and probably won't for some time.

It becomes harder since we have to drop our preconceptions of characters and just work with what we have made them into. Forcing ourselves and the community to adapt to the new conditions of B+, rather than modifying the game, must be the focus as we approach a finished product.


Not that we should abandon experimental sets (messing with sjr frames for example), but I'd advise against releasing them in the way we've released the nightlies.

 

[CT Chia]

Is Ness even this big of a problem lol? There's no way he is. Someone play me online so I can see if he lives up to this broken status.

 

[slikvik]

CK gave me a lot of trouble with ness. It took a while before I was able to beat him consistently. fair comboes into itself multiple times with DI and fair links to uair at pretty much any percent for the kill. His combo potential overall is just really good. I wouldn't say PK fire is broken, but it is very difficult to SDI out of. I think his fair is ridiculous...

@G-reg a lot of the "serious discussion" takes place in a chatroom. also play me soon. I want to see your improved falcon

 

[CT Chia]

how is linking aerials into each other into a killing aerial any different from falcon chaining any aeiral together into a knee. and ppl say hes like mid tier

 

[JCaesar]

How would you like it if G&W's bair comboed really well into itself and into kill moves?

And Falcon is definitely NOT mid-tier. 2 Falcons (one who's not even a Falcon main) in the top 5 at Hackfest.

 

[shanus]

How would you like it if G&W's bair comboed really well into itself and into kill moves?

And Falcon is definitely NOT mid-tier. 2 Falcons (one who's not even a Falcon main) in the top 5 at Hackfest.

Ness Fair is marginally larger than G&W's bair.

G&W's bair is *twice* as disjointed as Ness' fair (PSA the offsets), and does 3 more damage.


Game, set & match (hohoho pun-ishment)

 

[slikvik]

how is linking aerials into each other into a killing aerial any different from falcon chaining any aeiral together into a knee. and ppl say hes like mid tier

...what jceaz said

 

[JCaesar]

Ness Fair is marginally larger than G&W's bair.

G&W's bair is *twice* as disjointed as Ness' fair (PSA the offsets), and does 3 more damage.


Game, set & match (hohoho pun-ishment)

The point is, they are both large, majorly disjointed, high priority, multihit attacks that are difficult to avoid. G&W's bair is a better wall and somewhat harder to punish, but Ness's fair beats pretty much everything and it combos so well (partially because Ness is so much faster in the air and he has much better killing aerials) that it's just a better all-around move.