• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

So I finally played Brawl+ with people who are good and...

_Yes!_

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 5, 2006
Messages
8,787
Location
WHERE AM I
wtf lol...

Falco is retardedly godlike, Fox can barely do anything from dair, and ganon and falcon still suck.

Falco shut down ganon completely just with shdl...did you guys buff him or something?

More thoughts when I wake up tomorrow.
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,009
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
SHDL is gone now so lol.

Also, being good in Smash doesnt mean you'll completely understand certain match ups and how to act in those situations.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Ganondorf's major problem in Brawl+ is projectile spam so right off the bat Falco, Samus, Link and Toon Link are some of his worst matchups. He can work around most other projectiles by jabbing them, powershielding, and other smart approach tactics but those 4 will always be his worst matchups. But he also punishes harder then any other character.

What people in particular were giving Ganondorf trouble (besides Falco?) I personally find Dorf to be quite average. Just slightly above the middle mark.

Also, try the new Falcon in the latest nightly (hopefully you got the WBR nightly before playing tonight. Suck to play a ton and then have tons of new **** to learn the next day)

P.S. Got any vids for us? Just wondering.
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
The reason fox can't do anything from dair is utilt from backside, shine from front side which you can JC into another dair (sometimes), JC into a bair, fair, or upsmash. But you refuse to use that, so yeah.
 

_Yes!_

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 5, 2006
Messages
8,787
Location
WHERE AM I
I used the latest nightly lol. I don't save vids xD

It wasn't my ganon it was inui's, which is good against not falco lol.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Yeah, SHFFL for Falco isn't in 8-15, however it is in the new official so I recommend you download that for next time.

Also, Inui's Ganon probably sucks, ZeonStar's is wayyyyyyy better.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
So you're not even going to search ZeonStar on youtube? =\

Honestly, it just looks like to me that you're complaining about something you don't want to learn how to do well with so you can get Fox's old Dair back.
 

_Yes!_

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 5, 2006
Messages
8,787
Location
WHERE AM I
So you're not even going to search ZeonStar on youtube? =\

Honestly, it just looks like to me that you're complaining about something you don't want to learn how to do well with so you can get Fox's old Dair back.
Don't assume that I'm that selfish.

Come to btl2 so i can **** your **** :)

mm for any amount.
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
Don't assume that I'm that selfish.

Come to btl2 so i can **** your **** :)

mm for any amount.
Feel free to talk ****, but you still aren't willing to relarn fox wheereas he is more fun and more dynamic.

Come to ECRC5 or LLHS and ill fox ditto.
 

_Yes!_

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 5, 2006
Messages
8,787
Location
WHERE AM I
4 hour drive = not worth it.

i have better things to do than argue with people so i'm done with this.
 

Veril

Frame Savant
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,062
Location
Kent Lakes, New York
Yes! , I'm planning on just bringing a ton of energy drinks and MMing with them. If you feel like MMing for a redbull, vs idk, being forced to listen to me geek out. I'll almost definitely lose but I've always wanted to play you, and lots of people... and I hate wifi.

Anyway, it really isn't fair to say that Inui's better than anyone in the br cause... Zeon isn't in the br lol (I think he should be personally)... but he knows Ganon really well in B+.

I don't want to get in the middle of this much. I'm just a research goon and I fear the rage ;p

i dont think any characters are overpowered
I agree for the most part. Some characters have qualities that are both very good and really annoying and worth changing.

OK, I really think we should act on Inui's and Yes!'s concerns by at the very least looking into Falco's lasers some more. I'll find the laser hitstun/lag/advantage values since I don't know much about that matchup (few ganons in NY) other than its super gay.
 

JCaesar

Smash Hero
Joined
May 28, 2004
Messages
9,657
Location
Project MD
NNID
JCaesar
Falcon is top 5 now imo. Ness also. Ness is wtf O_o

Everyone who was at Hackfest will agree with me.
 

VietGeek

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
8,133
nah its because cks always in the red

ness wears red

has crap range

u know where this is goin

DJC made ness obnoxious like all the other little boys
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
Falcon is top 5 now imo. Ness also. Ness is wtf O_o

Everyone who was at Hackfest will agree with me.
I think everyone just needs to calm down and learn the match-up against Ness. Ness has a lot of blatant weaknesses that are actually a little similar to Jigglypuff.

1. Weak from below (meaning he's very susceptible to combos, the only thing he has to defend himself in the air is Nair).

2. Edgeguarded easily (no more infinite PKT1)

3. Knocked offstage quite easily (ties in with #1)

4. Lacks range (excluding Fair), meaning he gets ***** by several characters like Marth, DK, Wolf, and so forth.

5. Can't outcamp people who are better at camping than he is (i.e Wario).

When I played against Cape's Ness when he visited, that Ness we were playing with had stuff that was messed up so it didn't really count at all. But, even with the things that were wrong, I was still able to beat Cape's Ness with an unnerfed Wario. Those things that were messed up was Fair and PK Fire (PK Fire being unable to SDI and Fair being unable to SDI + combo into itself). I just think that, people need to calm down about Ness, realize he has legit weaknesses still and learn the match-up.

You said it yourself, there aren't enough Ness users in tourneys. So that's lack of experience.

Anyway WHY are we using this topic for Ness anyway!? @_@
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
2,946
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
How come when I say to learn the matchup against characters no one listens but now everyone is using it to justify Ness? :p

P.S. Learn to fight Ness more. He and Yoshi are characters out of left field you never see but are real legit. I do think we probably buffed Ness more then he needed to be competitive but he's far from broken.
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,009
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
Yoshi Dair is more dumb with DJC.

I'm telling you guys. That dair falls into the category of Link's dtilt when the whole move was a spike.
 

Isatis

If specified, this will repl[0x00000000]ce the
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
10,253
Location
San Francisco, CA
NNID
reverite
I think he's been in the WBR, just mindgamed us all by the username color lol
 

g-regulate

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 14, 2004
Messages
7,568
Location
ashburn, VA
well i would say more, but i have little tournament experience to draw knowledge from, only been to like 3 singles tournaments. i personally think all the characters were decent and viable several versions ago, but still changes are made because of peoples "theories" without any kind of tournament proof. honestly i just like playing the game, ive found characters im comfortable with and im ready to win. i dont feel a need to balance the game more because i feel it's already balanced enough for me, i.e. i can win with several characters and have a solid main.

but anyway..... is this really a joke topic or does everyone single out a character that is "too good" and just complain about him, and thats how things get changed around here?
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
but anyway..... is this really a joke topic or does everyone single out a character that is "too good" and just complain about him, and thats how things get changed around here?
lol, Yes! didn't realize how to JC shine with Fox well enough so he thought that Fox was horrible and because Inui plays Ganon a certain way thinks Ganondorf isn't that good (even though recent videos from ZeonStar) show an otherwise brilliant way to play Ganondorf and place well (he placed at a decently sized Brawl+ tourney with at least 3 MKs in it in 5th, I don't have the results on me atm though).

How things are balanced are based on what a character can do. For instance, take a look at... DK. He hasn't been touched except for no fall special from neutral B. The reason for this is because DK has already proven to a lot of people that he can hold his own in plenty of different match-ups, has a solid combo game, and can kill well. His only troubles are that he has a pretty mediocre recovery, he's big, and can be beaten around a lot due to his weight and fatness. Despite those weaknesses, he can hold his own as I said. When you then look at say... Link, who previously couldn't really do much (this is talking from way back in the Spring) other than Jab cancel combos and maybe some juggling and Dair stuff and had huge glaring weaknesses (a worse vertical recovery than TL, combo'd and gimped easily, and can't combo into a KO move). We took what he had going for him, a decent ground game, and turned it into a much better ground game that relies on his jab cancels, Nair, Bair, Dthrow, and a few juggles here and there with some Dair combos mixed in.

When you throw all that in there, Link is golden, he now performs better in the match-ups where he didn't have the tools to do that well in and the tools to do better in match-ups that may have changed because X character does better in this environment than vBrawl. Link hasn't won any tournaments yet or placed very high (nobody uses him, just like nobody uses Ness) but, I bet you that if anyone used him, he could too place pretty well and take everyone by shock like Ness did.

At least, that's how I analyze when a character should get buffs. Bowser is a great example of a character who doesn't do well in very many match-ups and shows exactly what we aim to do for characters, as in, what we look at. Bowser is big, heavy, easy to gimp, and has a hard time comboing. So what you do is buff him in what makes him a heavyweight, a tank, and come up with some really cool ideas like flame cancel or crouch/crawling SA.

I hope that answered your question. It also goes by feedback from players and tournament results that show a recurring pattern. And, of course, getting feedback from mains of those characters helps us in which direction to go in with a character (although in some cases this really doesn't go over very well).
 

JCaesar

Smash Hero
Joined
May 28, 2004
Messages
9,657
Location
Project MD
NNID
JCaesar
Link hasn't won any tournaments yet or placed very high (nobody uses him, just like nobody uses Ness) but, I bet you that if anyone used him, he could too place pretty well and take everyone by shock like Ness did.
Actually, Forte won the second MD/VA Brawl+ tournament (back in April or May I think) going all Link. No one there thought Link was broken. Forte just straight outplayed everyone.

I just don't feel that the same thing happened when CK used Ness at Hackfest. He has put literally years more work into his Marth (who, last I checked, was considered top 10 in Brawl+), yet he switched to Ness mid-tournament and suddenly starting doing much better.

Now I have to say, I don't think Ness is lol-Brawl-MK broken. I don't even think he's the best in Brawl+ right now. It's just that he used to be (arguably) in the bottom 3rd of the tier list, but he seems to have shot way up, well above the target DK-level of goodness that we were striving for for all characters. Again, just my opinion, but I'm sure most of the people who were at Hackfest would agree with me, even CK. I'm willing to bet that CK thinks that Ness is better than Marth now.

I'm not trying to point any fingers. I know sometimes we make changes with good intentions without knowing the full repercussions. I'm not even saying we should fix Ness right away. I'm fine with letting this set play out for a while. I just think that we should be careful with large balance changes. Seemingly small buffs like the ones to PK fire and fair and dthrow can end up making a big difference.

Anyway, I don't really wanna cause any drama. Let's just wait for the videos.
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
JCaesar, have you even looked at the numbers for Ness PK Fire to feel how silly that accusation is?

Right now, the entire move is 53.6 frames from an original 59. It is also SDIable compared to its former state. The start-up is 2 frames shorter. You have 35 frames to punish him on miss. How is that in any form broken? Its just mind baffling why people are pointing at PK fire when it is so punishable. In fact, we have -overall- nerfed his PK fire compared to vbrawl.


His fair is at 1x size, has hitlag and possibly a slightly too low SDI capacity. I could agree with boosting the KBG on it, but its size is pretty escapable, especially if you are on the ground when he uses it in a SH.

Dthrow - DI mix-ups can really mess with this, but I could see boosting the BKB a bit.
 

Veril

Frame Savant
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,062
Location
Kent Lakes, New York
I think we're at the point where we can afford to wait and see in regards to all the characters being discussed. Its really easy, when discussing how stupid good character x is, to forget that we've got many characters with tons of visible potential that almost definitely hasn't been fully realized, and probably won't for some time.

It becomes harder since we have to drop our preconceptions of characters and just work with what we have made them into. Forcing ourselves and the community to adapt to the new conditions of B+, rather than modifying the game, must be the focus as we approach a finished product.


Not that we should abandon experimental sets (messing with sjr frames for example), but I'd advise against releasing them in the way we've released the nightlies.
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
24,416
Location
Philadelphia
Is Ness even this big of a problem lol? There's no way he is. Someone play me online so I can see if he lives up to this broken status.
 

slikvik

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 21, 2006
Messages
4,179
Location
**** MD/VA. I have no region. no really...
CK gave me a lot of trouble with ness. It took a while before I was able to beat him consistently. fair comboes into itself multiple times with DI and fair links to uair at pretty much any percent for the kill. His combo potential overall is just really good. I wouldn't say PK fire is broken, but it is very difficult to SDI out of. I think his fair is ridiculous...

@G-reg a lot of the "serious discussion" takes place in a chatroom. also play me soon. I want to see your improved falcon
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
24,416
Location
Philadelphia
how is linking aerials into each other into a killing aerial any different from falcon chaining any aeiral together into a knee. and ppl say hes like mid tier
 

JCaesar

Smash Hero
Joined
May 28, 2004
Messages
9,657
Location
Project MD
NNID
JCaesar
How would you like it if G&W's bair comboed really well into itself and into kill moves?

And Falcon is definitely NOT mid-tier. 2 Falcons (one who's not even a Falcon main) in the top 5 at Hackfest.
 

shanus

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
6,055
How would you like it if G&W's bair comboed really well into itself and into kill moves?

And Falcon is definitely NOT mid-tier. 2 Falcons (one who's not even a Falcon main) in the top 5 at Hackfest.
Ness Fair is marginally larger than G&W's bair.

G&W's bair is *twice* as disjointed as Ness' fair (PSA the offsets), and does 3 more damage.


Game, set & match (hohoho pun-ishment)
 

JCaesar

Smash Hero
Joined
May 28, 2004
Messages
9,657
Location
Project MD
NNID
JCaesar
Ness Fair is marginally larger than G&W's bair.

G&W's bair is *twice* as disjointed as Ness' fair (PSA the offsets), and does 3 more damage.


Game, set & match (hohoho pun-ishment)
The point is, they are both large, majorly disjointed, high priority, multihit attacks that are difficult to avoid. G&W's bair is a better wall and somewhat harder to punish, but Ness's fair beats pretty much everything and it combos so well (partially because Ness is so much faster in the air and he has much better killing aerials) that it's just a better all-around move.
 
Top Bottom