so how much do we think directional air dodging is actually gonna shake up the meta?

[Deleted member]

I meaan it's bound to have SOME impact, right?

 

[ABalloon]

I can def say it will bring a lot more mindgames to it. I also see characters like Inklings using it a LOT

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I’m just glad people can’t spam air dodge now. It brings the game to play more like melee and less like s4 and brawl.

 

[X1rom]

I thought it would take a while until I adjust to directional airdodges but I already use it all the time. For example when you get knocked of the stage I use it to get back to the stage before the knockback has ended or evading juggles and edgeguards. So to me it's insanely useful during a disadvantage state to reset to neutral very quickly. Factoring in the speed of Marth and the speed of the game it can be hard for opponents to react to me attacking a mere second after they hit me.

 

[Lonky]

I love the airdodge in this game because even tho it's directional which prevents people from spamming it it still doesn't block all of the momentum or put you in freefall
it's no longer like in Melee where you airdodged once in the air and you were ****ing dead
It will definitely lead to more mixups, mindgames and generally more combos in the air imo

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

I like that you can actually escape combos with it yet if the opponent reads it they can punish.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

You can land with DAD, which is nice, and somewhat lagless. However, doing it offstage will most likely result in a SD.

 

[Mc.Rad]

You can land with DAD, which is nice, and somewhat lagless. However, doing it offstage will most likely result in a SD.

Speaking of which, you can land onto small platforms instantly like on Battlefield if you input down and fast fall when you dodge. However its kinda funky. If you input the down fall and fast fall fast enough, you can shield right after you land. If you don't, you spotdodge. This is with holding the Sheild button of course. Otherwise you have a delay before you can do anything else. I think this may only be pratical in situations where you may want to apply shield pressure?? Or maybe try to bait somebody with a parry. Its nothing really that big and if I may be honest, I think it will prove kinda useless unless if parrying becomes a big part of the meta or if somebody finds a way to do things other than shield without the delay.

 

[zzmorg82]

It's pretty good in Nuetral, or when you're trying to land from being in the air; good mixup.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

It's nice when you mixup to escape a move with bad lag so they can't punish.

 

[Cntgus]

Will this iteration of wavedashing be any use?

 

[Fell God]

Probably the healthiest state airdodges have ever been in and likely ever will be. Not a complete death sentence offstage like in Melee, but not stupidly safe and untouchable like the last two. They're a solid defensive option for evading airborne attacks but are still punishable if you are predicted. Plus they're helpful for recovery which is nice for bad recovery gang like Chrom, Incineroar, and Big Mac.

 

[MapleBeasts]

Will this iteration of wavedashing be any use?

Yes. With good timing you can still get enough invincibility to dodge attacks and be perfectly positioned to follow up with a punish.

 

[Mc.Rad]

Yes. With good timing you can still get enough invincibility to dodge attacks and be perfectly positioned to follow up with a punish.

I think it could be good for escaping certain things, might be something that could be handy for characters who are more based in zoning like the Belmonts... though the lag after the air dodge could be a problem

 

[MapleBeasts]

I think it could be good for escaping certain things, might be something that could be handy for characters who are more based in zoning like the Belmonts... though the lag after the air dodge could be a problem

Yeah from what I've seen it's best use is against smashes and single hit aerials either from above or off a short hop. Multi hit moves like jabs it doesn't work for me.

 

[SolidShOok]

I don't think airdodging to the ledge is very fun.
But they're just enough to be expressive enough to be good for mindgames on the ground.
I have problems with using Z to wavedash sometimes, it gets me an aerial sometimes and it feels random.

 

[Zawaz132]

Speaking of wavedashing... If you're close enough to another character, you can actually Short hope and DAD through the opponent to land directly behind them. I don't know if this is that useful, but it could be important for a few combos considering you can dash through each other anymore.

 

[Mc.Rad]

Speaking of wavedashing... If you're close enough to another character, you can actually Short hope and DAD through the opponent to land directly behind them. I don't know if this is that useful, but it could be important for a few combos considering you can dash through each other anymore.

Yeet through your opponets
But seriously, I might try to do this an an alternative to DI. It could help out much more when I'm starting to get combo'ed in the air

 

[ProfessorVincent]

I don't think airdodging to the ledge is very fun.
But they're just enough to be expressive enough to be good for mindgames on the ground.
I have problems with using Z to wavedash sometimes, it gets me an aerial sometimes and it feels random.

In my testing, if you get an aerial from trying to wave dash with grab it's because you're still holding shield when you press grab, like when you try to wave dash out of shield. Just release the shield button, you can cancel the shield drop animation with a jump in this game.

 

[Fortress]

I'll answer the title question with another question:

How much does having multiple airtech options (neutral/forward/back/up/down) 'shake up' a given player's recovery mixups in Guilty Gear?

It's a very similar situation here. Your options in the air after being hit are going to be: attack, jump, neutral airdodge, directional airdodge. Attacking carries the risk of whiffing and dealing with landing recovery or even getting parried, and jumping risks getting smacked out of jump and having less options to leverage off-stage. You could do a directional airdodge and hope your opponent goes the opposite direction trying to chase you (very similar to a grounded tech-chase situation after a knockdown), or you could choose to perform a neutral airdodge with superior recovery all around with the risk being that you're going to go in one specific direction when you perform it, and your opponent will be right on top of you if they guess correctly.

It's just another 'air-tech' tool that lets you mix up your 'wakeup' game in the air.

 

[RobC]

I'll answer the title question with another question:

How much does having multiple airtech options (neutral/forward/back/up/down) 'shake up' a given player's recovery mixups in Guilty Gear?

It's a very similar situation here. Your options in the air after being hit are going to be: attack, jump, neutral airdodge, directional airdodge. Attacking carries the risk of whiffing and dealing with landing recovery or even getting parried, and jumping risks getting smacked out of jump and having less options to leverage off-stage. You could do a directional airdodge and hope your opponent goes the opposite direction trying to chase you (very similar to a grounded tech-chase situation after a knockdown), or you could choose to perform a neutral airdodge with superior recovery all around with the risk being that you're going to go in one specific direction when you perform it, and your opponent will be right on top of you if they guess correctly.

It's just another 'air-tech' tool that lets you mix up your 'wakeup' game in the air.

Way too soon to simplify the mechanic.

 

[Modesty]

I think air dodging is in a decent place in this game. It's risky to use but has it's place as a mixup. There may be more uses that we discover in the future too. In any case it's big improvement from 4.

 

[Browny]

Directional airdodging has made combos and strings far less reliable. Anyone who was hoping that this will put the game between smash 4 and melee is going to be disappointed. I'm really not seeing at all how this increases the advantage to the attacker when its impossible to cover landing options.

Yes it made edgeguarding more effective, but thats it. When it comes to strings when you mix this with the generally lower hitstun in the game, with the rapidly growing knockback, take a moment to watch some matches and look at how the game is stray hits, people chasing each other down and the person in the disadvantage state having far more options than they ever did in smash 4 before returning to neutral. Look at snake for example, he could b-reverse a grande or throw out a bair or airdodge, that was it. Now he has those 3 options, plus a left and right airdodge. So you went from taking a 1/3 guess on what he was going to do for a hard punish, to a 1/5.

People will eventually turn against this change and wish it wasn't in the game, it just gives the character being chased in the air far too many completely safe defensive options and requires complete guesses to punish things.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I definitely like it. Landing with some characters in Smash 4 was hell, so I welcome the additional movement option. It happens to feel very fluid use as well.

 

[LightLV]

Directional airdodging has made combos and strings far less reliable. Anyone who was hoping that this will put the game between smash 4 and melee is going to be disappointed. I'm really not seeing at all how this increases the advantage to the attacker when its impossible to cover landing options.

I mean with most characters in the game, landing on the stage with a directional airdodge is going to give you just enough lag to get launched right over again. It makes true combos less reliable but the engine itself makes chase and juggle situations far more aggressive and slanted in favor of the attacker in this game.

without directional airdodge, i feel like most characters just wouldn't ever make it back to the stage without the ledge, period lol


in most cases, i feel like it's actually more beneficial to land with a button than to land with an evasive move.

 

[RobC]

Directional airdodging has made combos and strings far less reliable. Anyone who was hoping that this will put the game between smash 4 and melee is going to be disappointed. I'm really not seeing at all how this increases the advantage to the attacker when its impossible to cover landing options.

Yes it made edgeguarding more effective, but thats it. When it comes to strings when you mix this with the generally lower hitstun in the game, with the rapidly growing knockback, take a moment to watch some matches and look at how the game is stray hits, people chasing each other down and the person in the disadvantage state having far more options than they ever did in smash 4 before returning to neutral. Look at snake for example, he could b-reverse a grande or throw out a bair or airdodge, that was it. Now he has those 3 options, plus a left and right airdodge. So you went from taking a 1/3 guess on what he was going to do for a hard punish, to a 1/5.

People will eventually turn against this change and wish it wasn't in the game, it just gives the character being chased in the air far too many completely safe defensive options and requires complete guesses to punish things.

Or people will learn a new game. There are plenty of games of you want 0 - Death true combos.

 

[leejaybird]

Does this game even have a META yet? Obviously an additional defensive option will change the way we play. But it's balanced in that if you use it to dodge an attack, you likely can't attack back until you land, and once you land, you can't do anything for 18 frames. If your opponent reads your directional air dodge, get ready to receive any set up they want. It is very risk vs reward oriented and I like that.

 

[Ulevo]

Or people will learn a new game. There are plenty of games of you want 0 - Death true combos.

Wanting a clear disadvantage state does not mean wanting 0-Death true combos. This current iteration of air dodge removes skill from the game because it makes the combo trees and frame traps very inconsistent and lets the person in disadvantsge get back to neutral state because characters cannot commit to a follow up and follow the drift from the air dodge. It is disheartening because all we really needed was to take Wii U’s air dodge and limit it so you can only use it once.

Browny is right. Most matches you watch are people taking damage or dying from stray hits.

 

[Kannazuki]

It has killed me a few times since I still have a Smash 4 mind set hehe.

 

[Browny]

Watching Bestness Vs Larry today... you can not watch that set, and some to the conclusion that directional airdodges have done anything other than make disadvantage less of a problem. Ness just kept airdoding to the ledge to recover instead of being forced to use PKThunder.

One of nesses greatest weaknesses has be buffed significantly.

 

[PsySmasher]

Still tend to SD a lot, since I liked to air dodge often in Smash 4.

But overall, I think DAD is a good way to reduce AD spamming, mix up landing/recovery options and makes aerial movement harder to predict/punish.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Look at snake for example, he could b-reverse a grande or throw out a bair or airdodge, that was it. Now he has those 3 options, plus a left and right airdodge. So you went from taking a 1/3 guess on what he was going to do for a hard punish, to a 1/5.

Except that a lot of characters have moves or set ups that can cover multiple options at one. More then once I've baited out an air doge with a fastall Charizard nair and punished on response. On the other hand, I've had a Chrom nair at me then follow my directial air dodge with a bair punish.

Characters with large hitboxes and good ground or air mobility will be good at this. With the increase to everyone's ground and air speed as well axms lower landing lag on most aerials, frame trapping and agressive options have been increased to match. It's no longer a game of rock/paper/scissors but rather more of a game of rock/paper/scissors/lizard/spock.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I won't go into many details, but I most of the problems people have brought here with the new air dodge are pretty meaningless to me. I'll take that extra movement option any time.

 

[Greave]

So many tourney commentators are saying the same thing over and over: "It's so hard to get out of disadvantage in this game;" "Airdodging has been heavily nerfed;" "Strings are so much longer because of airdodging." But in the very matches they commentate, the players are escaping disadvantage almost every attempt, and airdodge reads/punishes are EXCEEDINGLY rare. I know the game is still new and people aren't used to the mechanics, but just based on empirical observation, the airdodge mechanics makes the game much, much closer to Brawl with little to no disadvantage state (not counting offstage), and stray-hit focused game flow. I don't understand how these commentators don't see what's happening right in front of them and continue to perpetuate the (inaccurate) first impressions we got from the Direct trailers.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

I think the new airdodge mechanics will force players to feign punishes more often and try to bait airdodges that can be punished. Pressuring people will look different; lots of empty hops and posturing to bait dodges and set the opponent up for a further punish. Players will be in each other faces more, but will less since that will be the best way to force mistakes and capitalize on them.

Its similar to the frame traps of Smash 4, but since you can only dodge once, the defender can't rely on rely on another dodge further in their fall/recovery. You essentially only get one chance to make the right call, which means both the attacker and defender are going to have to be good at prediction. Fast fallers especially will like this, since they can jump up, force a response, and still get back to the ground to follow up. Floaty characters will suffer since they provide their opponent more opportunity to pressure them and cannot follow up as readily when on offense. Its different than Melee since you can actually dodge and still have options afterward, albeit not as good as the invincibility frames of a dodge. Your not stuck with DI as your primary defensive tool.

Recoveries are more varied since the defender has another option for recovery. Off stage play will be more complex and will require more prediction rather than flow charty removal of options. There were many characters in previous games that had to recover in specific ways so you could always cover the option. A lot of that is gone now. Characters with bad recoveries at least have some counter play. It will ultimately reward aggressive edge guarding that forces early responses. Hanging out on the ledge probably won't cut it anymore. You will need to make the leap to get the sweet edgeguards.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Luigifan18]

I think the new airdodge mechanics will force players to feign punishes more often and try to bait airdodges that can be punished. Pressuring people will look different; lots of empty hops and posturing to bait dodges and set the opponent up for a further punish. Players will be in each other faces more, but will less since that will be the best way to force mistakes and capitalize on them.

Its similar to the frame traps of Smash 4, but since you can only dodge once, the defender can't rely on rely on another dodge further in their fall/recovery. You essentially only get one chance to make the right call, which means both the attacker and defender are going to have to be good at prediction. Fast fallers especially will like this, since they can jump up, force a response, and still get back to the ground to follow up. Floaty characters will suffer since they provide their opponent more opportunity to pressure them and cannot follow up as readily when on offense. Its different than Melee since you can actually dodge and still have options afterward, albeit not as good as the invincibility frames of a dodge. Your not stuck with DI as your primary defensive tool.

Recoveries are more varied since the defender has another option for recovery. Off stage play will be more complex and will require more prediction rather than flow charty removal of options. There were many characters in previous games that had to recover in specific ways so you could always cover the option. A lot of that is gone now. Characters with bad recoveries at least have some counter play. It will ultimately reward aggressive edge guarding that forces early responses. Hanging out on the ledge probably won't cut it anymore. You will need to make the leap to get the sweet edgeguards.

Just my thoughts.

Actually, you get your airdodge back if you get put into hitstun. Of course, this just means that baiting is crucial...

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Actually, you get your airdodge back if you get put into hitstun. Of course, this just means that baiting is crucial...

Yes, I think it will lead to things like:

Fox jumping to look like he is trying to Up Air, baiting a dodge, but Fox actually just Fast Falls back to the ground and lines himself for a Up Smash, which you can now only contest with a hitbox (good luck).

I do similar things with Palu. Use Up Air/USmash to juggle, conditioning them to think I am going to use Up Smash/Up Air again. So they drift/dodge to avoid it, but I follow up with an empty short hop with an Explosive Flame to cover the landing. Then the situation resets again; but now I need to guess what my opponent is going to do. Will he respond to a Up Air, or a explosive flame? Opponent is likely having the same dilemma.

I'm sure better players will make much better punishes as the game develops.