So 3.6 Roy...

[HalcyonDays]

What do you guys think? The slight nerfs were pretty much mostly as expected, but do you think it'll cause any major changes in the future?

I think Our Boy's still looking pretty solid myself.

 

[Ghetto Blush]

One big thing is that his ledge dash now requires a slower input between letting go of ledge and jumping due to the graphical change. This confused me a lot at first.

 

[HalcyonDays]

One big thing is that his ledge dash now requires a slower input between letting go of ledge and jumping due to the graphical change. This confused me a lot at first.

Yeah, I don't know if it's a placebo or something, but I feel like I'm having a little trouble ledge-dashing in this version. Just have to grind it out, I guess.

 

[Ghetto Blush]

I'm pretty positive it's not a placebo effect. I normally never miss consecutive ledge dashes and after the update I missed multiples in a row. The graphical change would make sense since it had to do with Roy's ledge grab animation.

 

[Magus420]

You can see what Roy's ledge drop looks like before/after here:

Since he no longer warps upward and out on ledge drop he is lower and you need more time between the jump and airdodge to get on stage. It's similar to others of his height now. Also lets him reverse ledgedash without dropping down a lot first.

 

[HalcyonDays]

I see, I'm guessing this'll probably result in a bit of reduced ledge-dash invincibility frames.

Kind of reminds me of Melee Roy, actually.

 

[Smolder]

I don't know if I'm being crazy, but I feel like he received more nerfs than what the changelog shows.

 

[Ghetto Blush]

The ledge game feels super weird now. Just doing aerials off the ledge feels a lot different and I'm missing my l-cancels when I jump a little too late.

 

[Smolder]

Yep. We just need to adjust. Luckily, they didn't outright kill Roy. It doesn't seem like Roy is in anything that could be considered a bad spot. He still feels good, we just need to be more conscious of our spacing now and dtilt is a little less safe in neutral.

 

[Kneato]

Honestly, these nerfs seem fair if not inconsequential. I feel like they are offset by DeD being smoothed out so it is easier to chain the hits together asap. Also, the side-b into grab mixup is faster giving it a bit more viability.

 

[G13_Flux]

The biggest thing is that he didnt lose any important tools. I am a tad upset about the ledge thing, since it made him stand out nicely in one regard, and also because i had so much muscle memory dedicated to it, but at the same time its not gonna make him any less effective. he just had some fat trimmed off is all. I can still see him in the high-top tier easily.

dtilt tip BKB being lower at least means better combos at higher percents, and on floaties too.

 

[CyberZixx]

I like the changed. The UpB hang time was jank and i'm glad him and Marth got it changed. Ditlt was a little too much and Flux is right in that it could be better in some ways. WIll need to test it out.

I'm glad about the DeD changes too. Not sure why Dair tip was weakened but whatever.
Overall the character is more honest and fun to play against while still probably being good.

 

[Azureflames]

First impressions are that everything still feels good for the most part.

• Dtilt nerf- Funny enough i barely noticed any difference outside the fact that i don't get free fairs for days now. Dtilt still functions the same way and has amazing poke, pops people up onto platforms, and sets up combos/tech chases. Overall i think it was justified and we all expected this change.
• Dair tip nerf- Never really came to mind until i read the patch notes. I actually think it's pretty justified although it never really got much talk of its strength. if you managed to hit with the backswing of the hitbox on someone who's trying to recover or roll on stage, you got a huuuuge advantage...most all the time you'd be able to get a free edgehog after; someone with a mediocre or alright recovery would just lose a stock at midpercent.
• DED adjustment-I'm whatever on the changes...this was more of a slight feel adjustment right?
• ledge physics fix- This to me was actually his biggest actual nerf. Though this was just fixing a problem that existed unintentionally i think it'll affect a lot of roy's who utilize ledgedashing and ledgedash invincibility well. I havn't tested anything or been able to play much yet but i could see it having an affect on getting invincible ledgedash>Fsmash or ledgedash>Dtilt.

• • a side note to the ledge physics- You seem to be able to grab edge when you couldnt before if you attempted to side-b stall just above the ledge or roughly even vertically with the ledge. I know i used to occationally lose a stock because i tried to stall close to the ledge, expecting to to grab ledge...not grab ledge...then fall and not realizing it til it was too late to upB to get back to the ledge. (maybe this might be in my head, but it feels better to me.)

Overall i'm okay with the changes. You're still able to get a lot of combo starters and tech chases with Dtilt pokes in neutral and you can still get a lot of kill setups. However my playstyle has never really taken advantage of Dtilt > Bair in the past so im not sure how that setup is affected by the nerf in 3.6. I typically go for Dair > Bair, Dair>Fsmash, or Dair > flare blade for a lot of my aerial finish kills.

 

[CyberZixx]

Played some Roy today and thankfully he feels the same and still might be one of the best characters considering the nerfs to characters like falcon and Lucario.

Is it just me or are the swings different on DeD? I swear it felt like their angle was affected more by what direction i did. Plus I got > Grab, and I don't think I actually did before.

 

[Azureflames]

Played some Roy today and thankfully he feels the same and still might be one of the best characters considering the nerfs to characters like falcon and Lucario.

Is it just me or are the swings different on DeD? I swear it felt like their angle was affected more by what direction i did. Plus I got > Grab, and I don't think I actually did before.

I know lucario got hit pretty hard but what was changed with falcon that nerfed him? The grab release adjustment make that much of a difference? I personally didn't notice much of a change with DED in a negative way. If anything it felt pretty smooth; Also you were always able to do first hit DED > grab iirc

 

[CyberZixx]

ahh. must of just never occurred to me.
As for falcon I think the upthrow change does matter a decent bit. Before you could upthrow and get anything off it on just about any character. I would get zero to death'ed from one up throw.

 

[Ghetto Blush]

Anyone else having problems recovering (not against an opponen)? I've been finding myself overestimating the distance of my recovery and I sd a lot more than before. Does this have something to do with the ledge grab area having less duration due to the recovery change?

 

[Smolder]

Anyone else having problems recovering (not against an opponen)? I've been finding myself overestimating the distance of my recovery and I sd a lot more than before. Does this have something to do with the ledge grab area having less duration due to the recovery change?

^^^ This. From the way it looks, Roy seems to be missing the grab box directly above his head. There are so many times where I went for a horizontal recovery on BF and missed the ledge because the part of Roy's body that hit the ledge was his head. This has happened several times during both practice and in friendlies. One of my fellow smashers noticed me dying to this twice in a row and was like "Huh, why didn't you make that one and the one before?" All I had to say was "Hmm, I don't know. Seems odd."
EDIT: Don't take my word for why I'm missing it. I have about as much of an idea as the rest of you.

 

[Deus]

Yeah up b's are not connecting to the edge for me when they really look like they should either....

 

[Benny P]

Is up b not grabbing ledge from his head an actual bug, or is it meant to be this way?

Also, at first i was bothered by not getting free fairs for days, but now D-tilt is a lot better off now. More reliable to start combos and doesent hit em so far away now.

 

[Sundark]

A few days ago I tagged a Samus with a tipper Dtilt at high percent and was able to followup with a Bair to kill, which is something that never used to work with the old version. I don't know if it's at all consistent, or if he could have DIed better, but it would make closing out stocks against Samus a lot easier.

Regarding the Blazer grabbox thing, has anyone looked at it in Debug mode to see what's going on? Was planning on putting in a bit of lab time tonight, I'll see what I can find.

 

[Smolder]

A few days ago I tagged a Samus with a tipper Dtilt at high percent and was able to followup with a Bair to kill, which is something that never used to work with the old version. I don't know if it's at all consistent, or if he could have DIed better, but it would make closing out stocks against Samus a lot easier.

Regarding the Blazer grabbox thing, has anyone looked at it in Debug mode to see what's going on? Was planning on putting in a bit of lab time tonight, I'll see what I can find.

Do that, man. I'd like to see what you find. And in regards to the Samus thing. If you tippered her, she should have had enough time to jump away from the bair due to the range of the bair and the amount of hitstun tipper gives.

 

[Taytertot]

the nerfs feel completely warranted to me. Although of the nerfs id say that tipper dair was the one i'll miss most, since it was such a good edgeguarding tool vs a lot of the cast and now it doesnt seem to always give roy enough time to swat away an opponents second recovery attempt and the opponent can in some cases recover higher then they did before being hit, but im sure a new strategy will come up to make tipper dair still useful as an edgeguard tool.

With that in mind does anyone feel that the reduction to tipper dair's knockback will allow for better comboing onstage?

 

[CyberZixx]

worst thing about 3.6 roy is the new week sounding sound effects on his sweetspots.

 

[TFerg]

Edit: after playing more I really am not sure about these statements LOL
The biggest change was honestly the up b, but frankly his recovery was pretty stupid before this patch. It's now closer to melee.
His combo game overall feels different, but he still has the 0-deaths for sure.

Overall I personally feel the character feels slightly less derptastic and much more fun. My $.02

 

[TFerg]

Also his ledge game is still incredibly strong, it's just more similar to melee and takes much more finesse with the timing. Roys frame perfect ledge game was stupidly easy to execute in previous patches.

 

[Treesper]

He just feels cleaner. My friends hated whenever I played Roy because "DTILT IS SO STUPID" (which it was) so I guess 3.6 Roy improves relationships?

With dtilt sending them up and away rather than just up, the fair isn't completely free anymore, but at low percents they don't get sent THAT far away from Roy. I find fairs still easy to hit.

Spacies even feel easier for me to combo personally.

yes and idk why

 

[thechosenjuan]

The character is top 5, easy

 

[Sundark]

Yeah, even if Roy isn't top 5 anymore, which he very well could be, he's at least 6 or 7.

Dtilt tip is fine, and a lot less of a problem than expected. You can still poke and threaten with it just fine. You have to be a bit more thoughtful about recognizing when it's going to do what. Tippered Dtilts send the opponent a little bit up and away (DI may vary that I guess), meaning you can still just move forward and establish more stage control. Dtilt on-hit is now 1 of free combo or extra spacing, which almost seems more versatile to me.

Up B's boxes seem to be the same to me, there's nothing terribly weird happening there and I haven't had any particularly janky moments with it thus far. The nerf was ehhh. It doesn't dig quite as far into the stage, which is fine, but the hangtime nerf means a simple roll onto the ledge will hog it in a very braindead way every time. It was already simple enough to steal the ledge from him if you wavedashed back onto it from a platform while he sat there in the air. I feel as though either one of the animation change or the hangtime could have fixed it just fine, and that both is just a little bit too hard a hit, but that's just my opinion, and I certainly like playing good characters.

His combo game is pretty much the same, though I'm still not the absolute best at combos so take that with a grain of salt.

Tipper dair can basically still gimp as a ledgeguard, too, and comboing with tipper Dair isn't really even a thing regardless, but maybe I'm wrong on that one.

The ledgedash was far and away the biggest and most unfortunate 'nerf' though. Getting back onto the stage is a bit of a chore without that option being as powerful, and having to relearn the timing is inconvenient to say the least. Saffron offers a pretty solid spot to practice it on the helipad, by the way. It's the perfect distance for ledgedash into RAR wavedash back and forth between either side, if you don't just WD right back onto the ledge anyway.

 

[G13_Flux]

well, if youre frame perfect, you can still get off an invincibile dtilt. you can still be invincible for the first frame of the hitbox. at least he still has that. before if you were frame perfect, you could get off an invincible fsmash.. lol.

I dont think comboing with tipper dair was ever a thing. you could combo into it if you wanted though, though pretty situational i suppose. its still good for gimping at the ledge, just not as good at setting up an easy gimp from the stage.

He just feels cleaner. My friends hated whenever I played Roy because "DTILT IS SO STUPID" (which it was) so I guess 3.6 Roy improves relationships?

With dtilt sending them up and away rather than just up, the fair isn't completely free anymore, but at low percents they don't get sent THAT far away from Roy. I find fairs still easy to hit.

yes and idk why

the angle didnt change on his dtilt though, just the tip BKB.

 

[Treesper]

the angle didnt change on his dtilt though, just the tip BKB.

Yes but the the angle that the opponent gets sent changed because of the BKB change, since opponents are able to DI it easier.

 

[G13_Flux]

Changing the bkb doesn't affect how well you can di something. You still have +/- 18 degrees of freedom. I think it might appear to do so because the characters gravity will reduce vertical KB down to 0 in a shorter time. This means you reach a fully horizontal trajectory quicker. At the same time though, you won't move as far in the x direction since your initial horizonal component of KB will be lower as well, so even though you reach a lower trajectory earlier, the reason it's not as good at comboing at lower percents is because of its lower hitstun.

 

[iwinatu]

I was watching a stream that had Sethlon in the chat, and I was able to ask him what he thought the biggest nerfs were. He said the ledge game is so much worse now due to not being able to cover the start up of attacks with invincibility, and that being able to "just hold ledge" against his upb is a huge nerf.

Like, think about it. People used to have to know exactly how to bait it/time the ledge grabs/time the roll ups. Now a falcon can, at 0 percent, dthrow you, dthrow you, hit you off stage, hit you with anything, and then just hold ledge and roll up. You used to at least be able to live either from them rolling up too soon, or catching them as they went to grab ledge since they knew they'd have to cut the timing closer to use ALL the ledge invincibility frames. His recovery is more like Marth's now, except he suffers from falling faster, and suffers from having a slower upb.

He does grab ledge way quicker after upb now though, so that's kinda fun

 

[Taytertot]

so does that mean that all attacks have a possibility of DIing 9 degrees in one direction? never knew that.

 

[Charlesz]

Easily the most underrated character in this game. Still top 5 if not top 7 at least.

 

[Kneato]

I was playing around with debug mode and I found something odd.

When you hit an opponent with a sweetspotted Up Air, you still get the sweetspotted sound effect, but unless the opponent is above a certain percent, they only get weak hit stun as if you didn't sweetspot.

For example, on Ganon, he only gets the full heavy hitstun on sweetspot after 63%. Before that, he gets weak hitstun.

Has this always been the case? Is this on purpose? It seems counter-intuitive. Roy's Up Air is meant to be a juggle tool used to rack up damage. At 63% Ganon is already near kill percent.

I know U-Air end lag was increased in one of the last patches to make U-Air chains less of an auto-combo but I didn't see anything like this in the patch notes.

 

[steamymartini]

Roy's down tilt, up air, forward air, and side B all feel different.

 

[Taytertot]

I was playing around with debug mode and I found something odd.

When you hit an opponent with a sweetspotted Up Air, you still get the sweetspotted sound effect, but unless the opponent is above a certain percent, they only get weak hit stun as if you didn't sweetspot.

For example, on Ganon, he only gets the full heavy hitstun on sweetspot after 63%. Before that, he gets weak hitstun.

Has this always been the case? Is this on purpose? It seems counter-intuitive. Roy's Up Air is meant to be a juggle tool used to rack up damage. At 63% Ganon is already near kill percent.

I know U-Air end lag was increased in one of the last patches to make U-Air chains less of an auto-combo but I didn't see anything like this in the patch notes.

uair has always been really weak, which is why its such a great juggling tool. im fairly sure that the way that "weak hitstun (yellow shading once hit in debug)" vs "strong hitstun (orange shading once hit in debug)" works is based off of knockback which is calculated with the base knockback of a move, the knockback growth of a move and the damage of that move. the weight of the character also effects the knockback recieved. In essence, getting weak hitstun at that high a percent means that the move has very little base knockback and knockback growth and in some cases damage though roy's uair has ok damage. It also may mean that the character you are hitting is heavy which is definitely true in ganon's case.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Roy is still a really good character. #7 on my tier list.

I know U-Air end lag was increased in one of the last patches to make U-Air chains less of an auto-combo but I didn't see anything like this in the patch notes.

People who don't play Roy thought these Uair autocombos were hype for some reason.

 

[TFerg]

The more I play this patch, the more I feel that Roy is definitely a much more difficult character to get good results with against strong players. Sethlon's performance is also at an all time low, and I don't think it's coincidental.

Roy's recovery has always been able to be edgeguarded, most people just didn't learn how to time it properly. My roomate Taylor (who recently took Sethlon to game 5 at an LA tournament) basically always got me with the hog even with the float, unless I mixed it up with the edge cancelled drift back up b. (no longer possible or extremely difficult now)

I don't necessarily think that the changes were unreasonable, but man once I'm offstage now I'm DEFINITELY dead vs a competent player. It becomes slightly harder to close out stocks now as well, and the "marth problem" that didn't really exist in previous patches for Roy is real now. So you've got this dichotomy that while if you don't seal your stocks before a certain % finishing it will be difficult, but an opponent can kill you with a stray hit at like 50-60%. Not to mention Roy's tech options and combo weight are perfect for getting destroyed... and that you have to generally take risks in neutral for setups in many matchups.

I'm not convinced Roy is top tier anymore. I think he's probably still top 15, and that's fine. It just seems the risk/reward for the character is pretty wack atm. You're forced to gamble in a lot of situations not only in neutral, but also to close out stocks at high %, and in every one of those situations, you give your opponent just another opportunity to thwap you offstage to your doom.

You can call johns, johns, johns, but frankly I can't really think of a reason to play Roy over my Fox or MK in a serious setting anymore, other than my love for the character. Blanketly saying he's still top 5 while recent results scream otherwise is a little silly.