So 3.6 Roy...

[CyberZixx]

Great analysis. I totally agree. I feel Roy is still strong and capable just more match up based. He is a true glass cannon. Says a lot when Sethlon is picking up a Mario now when he went solo Roy in 3.0. I myself am picking up a Tink as I love the character and he covers Roys hard match ups well.

He is a character that requires a lot of finesse to play well and get results but it really fun and best of all rewarding as a player to use. which I'm totally fine with.

 

[Taytertot]

The more I play this patch, the more I feel that Roy is definitely a much more difficult character to get good results with against strong players. Sethlon's performance is also at an all time low, and I don't think it's coincidental.

Roy's recovery has always been able to be edgeguarded, most people just didn't learn how to time it properly. My roomate Taylor (who recently took Sethlon to game 5 at an LA tournament) basically always got me with the hog even with the float, unless I mixed it up with the edge cancelled drift back up b. (no longer possible or extremely difficult now)

I don't necessarily think that the changes were unreasonable, but man once I'm offstage now I'm DEFINITELY dead vs a competent player. It becomes slightly harder to close out stocks now as well, and the "marth problem" that didn't really exist in previous patches for Roy is real now. So you've got this dichotomy that while if you don't seal your stocks before a certain % finishing it will be difficult, but an opponent can kill you with a stray hit at like 50-60%. Not to mention Roy's tech options and combo weight are perfect for getting destroyed... and that you have to generally take risks in neutral for setups in many matchups.

I'm not convinced Roy is top tier anymore. I think he's probably still top 15, and that's fine. It just seems the risk/reward for the character is pretty wack atm. You're forced to gamble in a lot of situations not only in neutral, but also to close out stocks at high %, and in every one of those situations, you give your opponent just another opportunity to thwap you offstage to your doom.

You can call johns, johns, johns, but frankly I can't really think of a reason to play Roy over my Fox or MK in a serious setting anymore, other than my love for the character. Blanketly saying he's still top 5 while recent results scream otherwise is a little silly.

I dont completely agree but im not saying that the 3.6 changes havent bumped roy down on the tier list. That said, besides tipper dtilt being nerfed and tipper dair (though dair wasnt really a move to use in straight neutral) roy's neutral hasnt changed so im not sure why you feel that roy has to take a lot of risks from neutral. There are a few MU's where this is true like DK but that one has always been tough. Roy's other MU's arent that bad though i do have trouble myself with others like samus and ivy but those are more personal problems and i know that other roy mains dont have as much difficulty with samus and ivy.
We do have to be more careful with getting hit offstage and DI really well to avoid being in a bad recovery position but roy is still a monster onstage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg7a9gGSS_c&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5Ql_WEvbogHoGbUcQ_1ysCP&index=19
Due to his recovery nerfs i think roy may need to be played with safe option coverage in mind much more so and have to cut out some of the reads in his play that he used to do with less risk. I feel that the recent patch has more or less made roy to be more at the level of potential that marth has which is still quite good. My point being that marth is top tier in melee even though the melee meta at high levels is basically, if you get marth offstage he should lose his stock. If that is now more or less true for roy then that shouldnt cause roy to be top 15 when many felt that he was top 7 before. Personally id put him at top 10 now and thats still pretty good in my book, since the difference in character potential between low tier and top tier is much less dramatic in PM.

 

[ShadowKing]

By experience roys combo are more useful and his hits come out just a bit faster

 

[Taytertot]

By experience roys combo are more useful and his hits come out just a bit faster

then marth? i do think roy has a better combo game but i doubt that his actual attack animation are any faster though his shffl is faster due to having a faster fastfall speed so maybe that makes you feel that his attacks are faster when its just that he can cancel them more quickly. some of marths moves are faster then roys like utilt

 

[Azureflames]

The more I play this patch, the more I feel that Roy is definitely a much more difficult character to get good results with against strong players. Sethlon's performance is also at an all time low, and I don't think it's coincidental.

Roy's recovery has always been able to be edgeguarded, most people just didn't learn how to time it properly. My roomate Taylor (who recently took Sethlon to game 5 at an LA tournament) basically always got me with the hog even with the float, unless I mixed it up with the edge cancelled drift back up b. (no longer possible or extremely difficult now)

I don't necessarily think that the changes were unreasonable, but man once I'm offstage now I'm DEFINITELY dead vs a competent player. It becomes slightly harder to close out stocks now as well, and the "marth problem" that didn't really exist in previous patches for Roy is real now. So you've got this dichotomy that while if you don't seal your stocks before a certain % finishing it will be difficult, but an opponent can kill you with a stray hit at like 50-60%. Not to mention Roy's tech options and combo weight are perfect for getting destroyed... and that you have to generally take risks in neutral for setups in many matchups.

I'm not convinced Roy is top tier anymore. I think he's probably still top 15, and that's fine. It just seems the risk/reward for the character is pretty wack atm. You're forced to gamble in a lot of situations not only in neutral, but also to close out stocks at high %, and in every one of those situations, you give your opponent just another opportunity to thwap you offstage to your doom.

You can call johns, johns, johns, but frankly I can't really think of a reason to play Roy over my Fox or MK in a serious setting anymore, other than my love for the character. Blanketly saying he's still top 5 while recent results scream otherwise is a little silly.

I totally get where you're coming from. Roy definitely seems to feel different than he did before, but it's hard to pinpoint what exactly. I know sethlon put it that the fact that his upB is easier to edgeguard/harder to get back with means you just get less and less opportunity to close out stocks. Though his combo game is still good and his moves are still pretty solid, survivability decrease and the knockback properties of Dair tipper i feel hurt his ability to take stocks securely.

I know it sounds weak when people take this route, but i'm probably only gonna semi-play Roy now and pick up Marth/Falco for my main PM picks (Basically my melee mains). Roy's still crazy fun and is obviously loads better than melee, but sometimes the struggle still feels real.

I just think it's crazy sad how i keep hearing murmurs of bigger PM players thinking about dropping the game or putting it on the casual backburner because of 3.6b. I think PMDT might need to reexamine their balancing philosophies if they want to have a healthier fan/player-base. Honestly though, this WAY to soon to jump the gun, it is the 3.6"BETA" after all.

Even so, from history we still have had a lot of "buff conservatively, nerf heavily" mentality, while still having these random characters left in with crazy options and stagegame with maybe some added jank that probably needed to be toned down more than some of the nerfs that went out. Even before the recent showing of ROB i thought he was crazy hard to deal with cause of his weight and survivability, not to mention the projectile, crouch cancel, and heavy air mobility; Throw G&W in there cause he's always driven me nuts with all his wonky hitbox strength/priority over most everything . I just hope that they give characters some kind of compensation instead of just taking away everything. I would love to see the skill ceiling be raised because of more viable options in gameplay or higher requirement for adaption/skill.