*sniffle* Difficulty waveshining backwards ;_;

[GooeyBanana]

Ok, before anyone says anything, this is NOT like the other topic where the guy just can't get a perfect wavedash out of a backwards waveshine.

I can't even waveshine backwards consistently. What's the timing on this and how should I be inputting this? It sucks when I get some crazy pressure on someone and then...I'm stuck in the shine animation or something like that which ruins the pressure and puts me in a disadvantageous position. All I've heard is to input shine, then wavedash(X+R for me if it matters), then quickly shift the control stick from down to diagonally downward, backwards. Is this the actual way to do it or is there other ways?

Thanks much if you can help this Fox in training out =D!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

downb -> * -> jump -> * -> stick to backwards -> air dodge

*the stick should be put back to neutral position somewhere between these points.


Alternatively you can hold your stick forward in the direction fox is facing until the back motion needs to be done, but i think thats more difficult than neutral position. Its less risk for the accidental turn around in the shine, though.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

its ok.

i cant do it going right

i have to turn around.

 

[GooeyBanana]

Also, is there a very strict timing for shine bairs? I can do them normally when you don't hit the enemy, but whenever the shine hits, I'm stuck in the shine animation.

 

[Lovage]

for the shine bair you're probably doing it too fast

start slowly and build your way up

the advice i give for anyone having technical problems in melee is to slow down and focus very carefully on the exact movements of the technique you're doing.

if you don't learn the technique like this, your fingers will move too fast for your mind and you'll make the incorrect input without realizing why. break the technique down step by step and focus on the individual movements very slowly, and then speed it up as you become more proficient.

 

[ArcNatural]

Also, is there a very strict timing for shine bairs? I can do them normally when you don't hit the enemy, but whenever the shine hits, I'm stuck in the shine animation.

This is probably the same reason your having trouble waveshining backwards (or if you also try to shffl aerial shine pillar). There is hitlag when hitting someone or a shield, so the timing for jumping out of shine is slower (I believe by 6 frames).

 

[GooeyBanana]

Ok that makes sense! And I thought something was wrong when I was shine pillar'ing a SHFFL'd dair on an opponent that was in the air! I always messed up the L-cancel so the shine didn't come out. Thanks a lot, that helped with both my characters actually. And thanks for the slowing down advice Lovage, that's what I've been trying to do these past few days and it's been pretty successful so far ^_^

Also, is the timing any different for turnaround shine bair? Like hit an opponent one way, chase them, jump, shine, turnaround, bair.

 

[ArcNatural]

Ok that makes sense! And I thought something was wrong when I was shine pillar'ing a SHFFL'd dair on an opponent that was in the air! I always messed up the L-cancel so the shine didn't come out. Thanks a lot, that helped with both my characters actually. And thanks for the slowing down advice Lovage, that's what I've been trying to do these past few days and it's been pretty successful so far ^_^

Also, is the timing any different for turnaround shine bair? Like hit an opponent one way, chase them, jump, shine, turnaround, bair.

Not a huge difference, takes one frame to turn around in shine.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i thought it was 3 or 4 frames for the turn around

 

[ArcNatural]

Could be, I always thought it was like a pivot but I could be wrong.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

there are 3 frames of hitlag on the shine

3 frames of lag when turning around (4th frame is first frame you can jump)

 

[BluePeachy100]

I can only wavedash to the right consistently, if I go to the left, I mess up after about three waveshines...

 

[`DNS`]

downb -> * -> jump -> * -> stick to backwards -> air dodge

*the stick should be put back to neutral position somewhere between these points.


Alternatively you can hold your stick forward in the direction fox is facing until the back motion needs to be done, but i think thats more difficult than neutral position. Its less risk for the accidental turn around in the shine, though.

Why reset the stick? I never do it, just do what you said without the resets.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If you don't reset the stick to neutral you run the risk of pressing back too early and causing you to turn around in your shine (which is most people's problem). resetting the stick to neutral is something you should be doing during every waveshine. I actually use the alternate method, i press forward then backwards.

 

[BluePeachy100]

I don't reset the stick... I think. I'd need to have my hands recorded, I never payed that much attention... or.... TO 1/4THs speed!

 

[RaynEX]

Also, is there a very strict timing for shine bairs? I can do them normally when you don't hit the enemy, but whenever the shine hits, I'm stuck in the shine animation.

If you are getting stuck in your shine, you are doing it too fast. Lovage already pointed this out earlier. You are probably trying to jump during the turnaround. Slow the process down and turn around FIRST, then jump. Once you break it down in your head, it will be alot easier to understand why you're messing it up.

For backwards waveshines, simply angle the control stick AFTER you jump out of the shine. If you hit down+B, then angle the stick as you are jumping and WDing (as if you were doing it forwards), you run the risk of turning around in your shine before you jump out of it.

1. shine

2. jump

3. angle

To be fair, its more like JUMP + ANGLE. But you need to get used to the idea of not moving the control stick during your shine. Hope I didn't confuse you.

there are 3 frames of hitlag on the shine

3 frames of lag when turning around (4th frame is first frame you can jump)

Good information. Everyone should remember this.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

is there a point to waveshining backwards?

methinks no

 

[RaynEX]

Turning around takes time. Fox is all about speed, and every frame counts. Sometimes that difference, coupled with human error, makes for a less than desirable waveshine follow. You have to wait for the shine hit lag to subside, then turn around, then wavedash. Its difficult to have to slow down for the turnaround, then speed up again. (Its not extremely noticable, but I'm sure a few of you know what I mean)

Learning to waveshine backwards is faster, and once you learn to do it, easier. Instead of just waveshining forwards and running away from your opponent, or turning around and risking error because of the added input, slide backwards motha****aas.

A few situations you might need it for:

-Dair opponent really close to the edge, with your back facing the edge. If you can waveshine backwards you can potentially grab the edge before they do.

-Same concept, but on the edge of a platform. Now you can combo bair or do something sillier to follow them.

-Landing an aerial facing the wrong way vs. mid/low traction characters. (Marth, Ness, Mario, Doc come to mind.) If you thought it was hard to waveshine chase them before...try hitting them in reverse then turning around AND doing a long *** WD.

Microwave needs a hot plate of backwards waveshine.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

Some very good points RaynEX, i like those ideas

you convinved me of its goodness haha

 

[FoxLisk]

also useful against spacies. you can uthrow shine WD backwards when they don't DI and then punish their missed tech (or tech chase them if they saw it, but most people miss that tech in my experience).

 

[RaynEX]

Actually, for uthrow shine its different. I think I'm qualified to speak on it because I use it waaay too much.

(Not sure if that's a good thing)

Anyways:

If they don't d.i. and you shine, everything you can connect with a backwards waveshine you can connect with a turnaround waveshine. Thankfully, its easy to uthrow and predict which way the shine will send them if they don't d.i. So now, I usually uthrow, turn in the direction I'm sure they'll be sent, and do a regular forwards waveshine (but I get full length because perfect WDs are easier moving forward). If you want to be flashy, this almost secures a follow-up. (i.e.: any aerial, usmash, shine usmash etc)

 

[Dart]

downb -> * -> jump -> * -> stick to backwards -> air dodge

*the stick should be put back to neutral position somewhere between these points.


Alternatively you can hold your stick forward in the direction fox is facing until the back motion needs to be done, but i think thats more difficult than neutral position. Its less risk for the accidental turn around in the shine, though.

Why reset the stick? I never do it, just do what you said without the resets.

is it straight backwards or is it angled downwards? T_T

 

[PK Webb]

Angled....if u go straight u will just airdodge....but its a thin line between a perfect waveshine and a airdodge

 

[MisterZ]

i keep holding down after the shine and just be sure to angle control stick AFTER i hit jump but BEFORE i hit shoulder button. for practicing a lot of fox's stuff i set the computer to a heavy character with damage ratio as low as possible and handicap all the way in their favor (level 1 cause its just a punching bag anyway). i found this useful for accounting for hit lag. for example when practicing really fast nair shines with fox its useful cause they dont go anywhere till like 300%.

i got a bit off topic but another good thing to try is just try waveshining the computer backwards (reducing the damage ratio helps them not slide as far). once it looks something like a combo you will realize it just happens naturally when playing humans. (at least for me that's how it worked out)

 

[MisterZ]

i keep holding down after the shine and just be sure to angle control stick AFTER i hit jump but BEFORE i hit shoulder button. for practicing a lot of fox's stuff i set the computer to a heavy character with damage ratio as low as possible and handicap all the way in their favor (level 1 cause its just a punching bag anyway). i found this useful for accounting for hit lag. for example when practicing really fast nair shines with fox its useful cause they dont go anywhere till like 300%.

i got a bit off topic but another good thing to try is just try waveshining the computer backwards (reducing the damage ratio helps them not slide as far). once it looks something like a combo you will realize it just happens naturally when playing humans. (at least for me that's how it worked out)

 

[Dart]

Angled....if u go straight u will just airdodge....but its a thin line between a perfect waveshine and a airdodge

it was an obvious answer but thanks, can't be too sure fox is the epitome of technicality in this amazing ****ing game.

 

[duyzee]

It's much simpler than you think. Honestly after you shine, just take your time just wavedash backwards normally. You're probably inputting the buttons to quick, you have to wait for the control stick to be reset back in the middle.

 

[Dart]

yeah i noticed, when i play. if i don't think about it and just look at it like its the same just facing differently i do it like its natural sometimes :D