Snake's Flaws

[Ralph Cecil]

Would some of you mind helping me out with a situation, because my friends still have the common misconception of Snake's tilts being nonpunishable. I know that this kind of topic has been touched, but could you guys help me with pointing out some of the ways you can, & some other obvious flaws? =D

EDIT:Also if they see this they can freely join in and argue against it.

 

[Fuujin]

You might want to point out what character you're trying to punish him with.
Some lower tiered characters have virtually no way of punishing his well spaced tilts.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Oh well they both play Meta, & Falco, but I was kinda of trying to be a bit general with it. I guess I was talking more of mid, & high tier.

EDIT:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPe8z6p7WxQ Also I have hope for them =D

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Number one, your friends need to speed up. Snake's attack are fairly laggy on shield. The frame advantage is there for people to grab snake before Ftilt 2 comes out. The after lag of Ftlit 2 on shield is certainly punishable. Utilt is laggy enough that you can grab it, but you have to be wary of the shield push. In that case, dropping shield into a dash attack works for virtually every character.

Your friends probably need to wisen up about how they approach snake in the air. He is at is weakest at that spot. He has so few options to landing. Airdodge, grenades, 2nd jump, or aerial. They should figure out that Snake wants to get back to the ground, but by using only those methods. From there, you need to make choices that will cover a few of those options. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q2DdBNajvo&feature=related Numerous times in this video, M2K spaces a jump -> Uair so that had ally not airdodged, he would have gotten hit by Uair. However, M2K was in the right postion after his attack that he could punish an airdodge with Nair. The same has to be done for other options snake has in the air. The idea of attacking to provoke a reaction from snake, but should the attack fail, you launched your attack in a way that you do not get punished for it, and you can punish Snake for doing something.

Even if I am not MK, but I am playing Falcon, I can try to provoke a reaction from Snake by jumping near him, but out of the attack of retaliation from Snake. This way, if he does something, I can follow-up on it.

You might want to point out what character you're trying to punish him with.
Some lower tiered characters have virtually no way of punishing his well spaced tilts.

Nearly every character has some way to punish Snake's tilts. So long as you are not hit, you can punish snake for it. The biggest way is like I said by trying to use a dash attack. Most dash attacks cover a large area in a sort amount of start-up lag.

 

[napZzz]

snake has too many flaws to count

 

[The_SMILE]

I can grab after the 1st hit if it's on shield fine. It's if the 2nd hit gets in and I buffer a dash attack oos shield I get jabed in da face wif Falco. And I'm playing Falco no reason for me to approach Snake... doesn't mean I never get in the situation that I get tilted...

 

[Blacknight99923]

I can grab after the 1st hit if it's on shield fine. It's if the 2nd hit gets in and I buffer a dash attack oos shield I get jabed in da face wif Falco. And I'm playing Falco no reason for me to approach Snake... doesn't mean I never get in the situation that I get tilted...

you may not be doing it fast enough despite thinking that you are,

when you see Ftilt 1 be ready for the punish of ftilt 2

 

[The_SMILE]

you may not be doing it fast enough despite thinking that you are,

when you see Ftilt 1 be ready for the punish of ftilt 2

...possibly, but if a dash would win then at like 2:10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIeq1GX_NhY why does Shugo use d-air instead of dash attack?

 

[OnlyUseMeNades]

Well if he had tried to DA in that situation, it would've missed.

Assuming you get hit by Ftilt 2, you have about 12 frames minimum fter you drop shield to punish.

If you buffer the Dash/DA or whatnot OoS, it comes out on frame 4 (couldn't find how long it lasted) and you should be able to hit him in those last ~8 frames.

Not sure how far you get pushed back and if that changes anything, but it should work.

 

[The_SMILE]

Why would it have missed in that situation for him, and not me?
And I'm not sure but I think if it's spaced right I get pushed to far back. But maybe I'm just not doing it fast enough.

 

[OnlyUseMeNades]

Why would it have missed in that situation for him, and not me?
And I'm not sure but I think if it's spaced right I get pushed to far back. But maybe I'm just not doing it fast enough.

Well, at that speed the DA would have missed. But if he had been going for the DA punish, I bet he could have gone faster.

I really don't know lol, I'm just using frame data from the two boards and it seems possible enough. But I couldn't find data on shieldstun, how fast Falco's dash startup was or how much distance affected it. Poorly spaced, it'll work. Well spaced, it's possible

 

[napZzz]

snake sucks

 

[The_SMILE]

...Snakes mean.

 

[LanceStern]

What's this about it being easy to punish snake tilts, grabbing utilt etc?

The numbers may back it up but in practice it's madness. You'll eat a jab, pivot grab or another tilt. About the only safe punish is instant dash attack OOS.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

...possibly, but if a dash would win then at like 2:10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIeq1GX_NhY why does Shugo use d-air instead of dash attack?

Shugo had read Infern's spot dodge. That's why he went for dair instead.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I agree with lance stern however...

keep in mind becuase your snakes mains your generalyl fairly knoweldgeable about how to **** your own character so its easier for you to punish every mistake.
However everything the snake boards has said is technically true, but you may need a lot of practice to implemented without screwing it up.

 

[Fork]

Dat grab release

 

[Jrugs]

How is snake 2nd best again?

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

How is snake 2nd best again?

he's fat
best kill move in the game
nades
f tilt
mind games

 

[etecoon]

best kill move in the game

No.

mine games

fixed

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

yes

fixed

10fixed4u

 

[Ralph Cecil]

How is snake 2nd best again?

More or less it's because of his ability to keep up with Meta, & seeing as how MK is so commonly used, & so good it kind of makes sense.

he's fat
best kill move in the game
nades
f tilt
mind games

o-o What standards are you using for best kill move in the game? I know it's really good, but i'd be surprised if MK didn't have the best in usefulness.
Nades are good, but I feel Falco's lasers are better, & Diddy's bananas are a pretty good competitor.
F-Tilt is a good punisher sure, but it's also easily punished.
I think mind games go for just about anyone, but I will agree that Snake probably does have the best tools for it.

 

[F A N G]

Sonic's mind games are better

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I'm not sure about better, but I probably would enjoy doing a Snake ditto more instead of going against a sonic lol. I completely forgot about him. o-o

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

o-o What standards are you using for best kill move in the game? I know it's really good, but i'd be surprised if MK didn't have the best in usefulness.

if you are talking about shuttle loop then here's why. SL is useful cause it kills early off stage but sometimes you can get your opponent there. Up tilt kills most of the cast between 100-110 and some even earlier. Best kill move in the game, not best move in the game cause that is shuttle loop for its usefulness.

Nades are good, but I feel Falco's lasers are better, & Diddy's bananas are a pretty good competitor.

Lasers are good but they are limited. Yes bananas are a close 2nd but I think nades are better because your opponent cannot use them against you as well bananas can be. They both have all the same properties. Damage, wall, combo breaker, and set up kills and/or kill and more. Only thing nade don't have that bananas have it stun on hit.

F-Tilt is a good punisher sure, but it's also easily punished.

Why are you throwing out f tilt 2 when you hit the shield and/or spacing it wrong? Your entire post makes it seem like you think snake's option are terrible. Diddy maybe better than Snake but Falco is not better than Snake. Sorry this answer is so terribly worded

 

[F A N G]

Reverse SL kills extremely well, especially offstage

But Snake's Utilt kills everywhere

 

[Ralph Cecil]

if you are talking about shuttle loop then here's why. SL is useful cause it kills early off stage but sometimes you can get your opponent there. Up tilt kills most of the cast between 100-110 and some even earlier. Best kill move in the game, not best move in the game cause that is shuttle loop for its usefulness.

Lasers are good but they are limited. Yes bananas are a close 2nd but I think nades are better because your opponent cannot use them against you as well bananas can be. They both have all the same properties. Damage, wall, combo breaker, and set up kills and/or kill and more. Only thing nade don't have that bananas have it stun on hit.
Why are you throwing out f tilt 2 when you hit the shield and/or spacing it wrong? Your entire post makes it seem like you think snake's option are terrible. Diddy maybe better than Snake but Falco is not better than Snake. Sorry this answer is so terribly worded

Lol if you're talking about kill percents than Snake's u-tilt still isn't the best so I still don't get what standards you're using.

You can simply insta throw nades back, unless the Snake cooks them, & then(more likely than not) you can simply approach Snake. Also I understand that you CAN use Diddy bananas against him, but Diddy should be using those bananas better.

I saw someone say in a earlier post that said many of the cast can grab Snake on f-tilt one so there that little tid bit, & I don't mean to make it sound like Snake's options are terrible, i'm just saying they're not as great as all of the hype that he recieves. Examples being things like "OMG Snake's tilts are nonpunishable!" and things of that sort.
I wasn't trying to claim that Snake is a worse character than so many others either. I was just saying that he's over hyped, overrated, & in fact has some pretty decent flaws.

EDIT:

Number one, your friends need to speed up. Snake's attack are fairly laggy on shield. The frame advantage is there for people to grab snake before Ftilt 2 comes out. The after lag of Ftlit 2 on shield is certainly punishable. Utilt is laggy enough that you can grab it, but you have to be wary of the shield push. In that case, dropping shield into a dash attack works for virtually every character.

Your friends probably need to wisen up about how they approach snake in the air. He is at is weakest at that spot. He has so few options to landing. Airdodge, grenades, 2nd jump, or aerial. They should figure out that Snake wants to get back to the ground, but by using only those methods. From there, you need to make choices that will cover a few of those options. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q2DdBNajvo&feature=related Numerous times in this video, M2K spaces a jump -> Uair so that had ally not airdodged, he would have gotten hit by Uair. However, M2K was in the right postion after his attack that he could punish an airdodge with Nair. The same has to be done for other options snake has in the air. The idea of attacking to provoke a reaction from snake, but should the attack fail, you launched your attack in a way that you do not get punished for it, and you can punish Snake for doing something.

Even if I am not MK, but I am playing Falcon, I can try to provoke a reaction from Snake by jumping near him, but out of the attack of retaliation from Snake. This way, if he does something, I can follow-up on it.


Nearly every character has some way to punish Snake's tilts. So long as you are not hit, you can punish snake for it. The biggest way is like I said by trying to use a dash attack. Most dash attacks cover a large area in a sort amount of start-up lag.

Here's the post about punishing Snake's f-tilt. o-o

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

Lol if you're talking about kill percents than Snake's u-tilt still isn't the best so I still don't get what standards you're using.

You can simply insta throw nades back, unless the Snake cooks them, & then(more likely than not) you can simply approach Snake. Also I understand that you CAN use Diddy bananas against him, but Diddy should be using those bananas better.

I saw someone say in a earlier post that said many of the cast can grab Snake on f-tilt one so there that little tid bit, & I don't mean to make it sound like Snake's options are terrible, i'm just saying they're not as great as all of the hype that he recieves. Examples being things like "OMG Snake's tilts are nonpunishable!" and things of that sort.
I wasn't trying to claim that Snake is a worse character than so many others either. I was just saying that he's over hyped, overrated, & in fact has some pretty decent flaws.

EDIT:

Here's the post about punishing Snake's f-tilt. o-o

I'm not talking about kill percent but if you are than Ike is clearly the best character because he can kill almost any character under 15% with a flashing eruption Like fang said up tilt kills everywhere and early.

You say diddy should be using those bananas better and I say the same thing of your nades. When your creativeness for nades runs out then so does your ability as a player.

Ok fine. F tilt is punishable. But how many ground attacks (really any kind of attacks) in this game are unpunishable. I can only think of one that is unpunishable on shield not even perfect shielded. If we are counting perfect shielded then that number probably goes to 0 even across the ones I don't know. F tilt starts on frame 4, has sword like disjointedness, can lead to grabs, a great poke especially when in combination with jab1 first, does 21 damage fresh, can kill itself (if opponent is in air), trips which leads into almost anything snake has and punishes most other character attacks on shield. I'm sure there are a few other uses but they escape me at the moment. Please counter with a move that is a better punisher and damage builder. Keep in mind I never said it was the best punisher in the game just one of the reasons he was at #2.

 

[Attila_]

Diddy is designed to use nanas. No other character is. Don't even compare his ability to use nanas with snake's.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Diddy is designed to use nanas. No other character is. Don't even compare his ability to use nanas with snake's.

Although, some might argue other characters benefit from it more such as sonic.

 

[False]

If ftilt1 trips can we get a guaranteed utilt?

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

Diddy is designed to use nanas. No other character is. Don't even compare his ability to use nanas with snake's.

Agreed but if you don't learn to use bananas you can pretty much expect a loss against a competent diddy. Simply tossing them away doesn't really help you as they just disappear and he get to pull them out again. Only way I've seen just tossing them away is when you have diddy on the ledge.

If ftilt1 trips can we get a guaranteed utilt?

yes if you can react in time. You can also grab, jab, do another f tilt1(i one time got 3 trips in a row), d tilt, dash attack and I believe dair. The trip is another reason to use ftilt1 as a poke and to not blindly throw out ftilt2.

 

[Kuro~]

Diddy is designed to use nanas. No other character is. Don't even compare his ability to use nanas with snake's.

I agree here. Snake can use nana's decently effective but not near diddy's level. I also have the belief that alot of other characters can use nanerz just as well as diddy if not better...mostly the former

e.g. IC's, wario, sonic, marth, pit.

Also, saying they can just insta throw the nade back is a circular argument. There are too many variables involved in reactions, positioning, baiting, etc etc. to really say that's what makes them "not that good" of a projectile. Imo, Nanas>nades>lasers>arrows>tires>zelda series>rob laser>turnips>fireballs>bacon>. Excluded some out of laziness.

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

I agree here. Snake can use nana's decently effective but not near diddy's level. I also have the belief that alot of other characters can use nanerz just as well as diddy if not better...mostly the former

e.g. IC's, wario, sonic, marth, pit.

Having a long glide toss does not mean having great banana control

 

[Kuro~]

Having a long glide toss does not mean having great banana control

Referring to whom?

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

Pit, marth, sonic and others. Diddy's medium banana glide tosses allow him be a threat at medium and short range. Characters' pick up range of items is also a factor in now well then control bananas. G&W has a great glide toss and amazing kill moves so why doesn't he **** diddy. His pickup range sucks. Its so bad he has to get close enough to be in danger of slipping on the banana. Zss and falco probably have the greatest control of bananas outside of diddy. And snakes banana control is worse than average. Captain falcon, ganon and zelda and link all have better item control than snake and those are just listed as characters whoms option in general are pretty bad. All of snakes throws are laggy, no real powerful ways to follow up after a banana hit.

edit: post 500 ahhhhhh

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I'm not talking about kill percent but if you are than Ike is clearly the best character because he can kill almost any character under 15% with a flashing eruption Like fang said up tilt kills everywhere and early.

You say diddy should be using those bananas better and I say the same thing of your nades. When your creativeness for nades runs out then so does your ability as a player.

Ok fine. F tilt is punishable. But how many ground attacks (really any kind of attacks) in this game are unpunishable. I can only think of one that is unpunishable on shield not even perfect shielded. If we are counting perfect shielded then that number probably goes to 0 even across the ones I don't know. F tilt starts on frame 4, has sword like disjointedness, can lead to grabs, a great poke especially when in combination with jab1 first, does 21 damage fresh, can kill itself (if opponent is in air), trips which leads into almost anything snake has and punishes most other character attacks on shield. I'm sure there are a few other uses but they escape me at the moment. Please counter with a move that is a better punisher and damage builder. Keep in mind I never said it was the best punisher in the game just one of the reasons he was at #2.

Oh well in that case i'd say Fox's u-smash is also a competitor, if kill %, & where you can do it at are the factors. ^_^

I was more or less talking about how his moveset works so well with his projectile while Snake's moveset doesn't really benefit him more than any other character.

And for the f-tilt thing, I wasn't saying that Snake's f-tilt is so god awful or anything. I was just saying it's punishable, unlike how some people try to argue otherwise.

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

Oh well in that case i'd say Fox's u-smash is also a competitor, if kill %, & where you can do it at are the factors. ^_^

I was more or less talking about how his moveset works so well with his projectile while Snake's moveset doesn't really benefit him more than any other character.

And for the f-tilt thing, I wasn't saying that Snake's f-tilt is so god awful or anything. I was just saying it's punishable, unlike how some people try to argue otherwise.

Yes fox's up smash is up there as well for it's OoS options and being able to running out of shield.

I suppose so but snake is absolute garbage without nades.

The first person asked why snake was #2 and his tilt game is one of those reasons. His tilts are more disjointed, kill and are less punishable than most of the cast.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Actually this thread is why Snake is #2(BBR discussion on tier placement). For the most part they just say it's Snake's ability to fight Meta.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=280681

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

Actually this thread is why Snake is #2(BBR discussion on tier placement). For the most part they just say it's Snake's ability to fight Meta.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=280681

While that is true it is also true that while does not win every MU he has a fighting chance in everyone of them and it's all the advantages that I listed that make him have those even MUs. No character completely walls out snake where as some characters that you mention like lose hard to and . is #3 probably cause there aren't that many great s and is low as he is cause there are so many s