Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

[blargh257]

So I have picked up .
Pikachu has this thing where he can use Quick Attack to knock people down. If they miss the tech/jump if they're able, they sit there and you jab them two times if you want to use up smash or three if you want to use Fsmash or Thunder, and then go into those guaranteed.
For my own benefit as well as the benefit of anyone wanting to play Pikachu I have done some tests and made a chart of the percentages at which Quick Attack sends these characters into tumble which leads to knockdown, before tumble they just stand.
Here it is.
This is definitely worth learning despite the ease of escape, sweetspotted Fsmash kills VERY early (I think I've killed at 69,) though it's hard to hit and not as consistent, and Quick Attack is effectively unpunishable.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Also, for reference on how hard F-Smash hits with the Quick Attack lock, you can kill Sheik at 60% from across the stage by using F-Throw > Quick Attack > Jab x3 > F-Smash (slightly charged) which is insane. F-Throw to Quick Attack isn't guaranteed unless they miss the tech, but it's really hard to avoid because if they tech in place or towards Pikachu, they'll get hit by Quick Attack, and if they tech away Pikachu can run a bit forward to hit with Quick Attack.

 

[ZADD]

Hey guys, I made another SLHG combo video.
My friends are really getting good, especially Frank with Ryu. I might upload more replays later if I have time.

 

[Muro]

So I have picked up .
Pikachu has this thing where he can use Quick Attack to knock people down. If they miss the tech/jump if they're able, they sit there and you jab them two times if you want to use up smash or three if you want to use Fsmash or Thunder, and then go into those guaranteed.
For my own benefit as well as the benefit of anyone wanting to play Pikachu I have done some tests and made a chart of the percentages at which Quick Attack sends these characters into tumble which leads to knockdown, before tumble they just stand.
Here it is.
This is definitely worth learning despite the ease of escape, sweetspotted Fsmash kills VERY early (I think I've killed at 69,) though it's hard to hit and not as consistent, and Quick Attack is effectively unpunishable.

Are you able to position yourself after the quick attack or do you finish it right on top of them? I usually go for aerials or up tilts after a QA.

I've been paying pikachu since the beginning and I also think he's the best character, but shiek is just so noob friendly man. She's just as good as pika but she's really easy to play.

 

[ZADD]

shiek is just so noob friendly man. She's just as good as pika but she's really easy to play.

Yea, Sheik is 100% fundamentals in SLHG. I don't think she is better than her Vanilla self, but instead about the same relative to the rest of the cast. Other characters have the same tools as her now, and in the right hands can definitely keep up.

Robin vs. Sheik in Vanilla is a very harsh matchup, shows can Sheik can shut out a whole character.

Robin vs. Sheik in SLHG is interesting. Short and destructive burst combos from Robin, while Sheik works to control the stage.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Tried my voice at commentary again. Still got work to do but one doesn't just get good overnight. These are some pretty cool videos by Reserved and Blargh going at it though. Keep up the Pikachu man!

And.... this. Roy vs. Falcon may be my new favourite matchup in this mode. Watching the speed and combos unfold is really cool to see.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Pikachu makes me laugh. Really hard. He's cool~

 

[WhatsInAUsername]

So I don't have anything insightful or interesting to add to this thread, I'm just wondering if anyone not in the smashladder chat would like to play? I know there's supposed to be a match thread, but I think it's dead? But I'm good for matches for a while, hmu if you want to play....
My NNID:Winner47

 

[Muro]

So I don't have anything insightful or interesting to add to this thread, I'm just wondering if anyone not in the smashladder chat would like to play?

If you're playing you're already contributing so don't worry about it.

Guys I keep seeing a skype group being mentioned, do you guys want me to put it in the OP or is it more of a personal thing?

edit: found this SLHG vid in the wild

 

[Chucknoxus]

If you're playing you're already contributing so don't worry about it.

Guys I keep seeing a skype group being mentioned, do you guys want me to put it in the OP or is it more of a personal thing?

edit: found this SLHG vid in the wild

I just wanted to ask if there's a way to rejoin the group because I got annoyed by the notifications and I left the group.

 

[Muro]

I just wanted to ask if there's a way to rejoin the group because I got annoyed by the notifications and I left the group.

I honestly don't know, I've never been in it lol.

 

[ZADD]

I'm sure this is common knowledge for Fox players, but I've found his jab lock to be exceedingly useful in SLHG.

For instance, D-air > Jab Jab x3 > U-smash seems to link at almost any %.

U-tilt is also his most reliable kill setup, even at 100% it still pops the opponent right above you. FF F-air > U-tilt > B-air

I'm not sure if dash attack can true combo into U-air at kill %'s, but I do know it's a true combo at low %'s.

 

[nannerham]

I'm not sure if dash attack can true combo into U-air at kill %'s, but I do know it's a true combo at low %'s.

Unfortunately it isnt a true combo but if you hit with the late part of the dash attack they are put in a horrible position, if they airdodge the uair they get the 22 frames of lag when they land and thats a free smash attack. If they dont airdodge there goes your stock. I tested this on mario on FD and the setup works from 140-155%

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Can't you just DI down and shield to avoid Fox's jab lock? I'd expect it to be much worse here.

 

[ZADD]

Can't you just DI down and shield to avoid Fox's jab lock? I'd expect it to be much worse here.

It's not really true 100% of the time, but it does work after Fast-Fall F-air or D-air with correct timing/spacing. If they DI/tech away, Fox has more than enough time to tech chase since his jab ends so quickly.

Overall It's a cool little tool that can 50/50 to an U-smash with a good read. I suggest adding jab locks into your combos, it's easy since most of Fox's damage happens close to the ground. He can footstool pretty easy too.

 

[Muro]

I think he's talking after the 2nd jab, can't you DI down and hold shield to escape the follow up (jab 1 again)?

 

[ZADD]

I think he's talking after the 2nd jab, can't you DI down and hold shield to escape the follow up (jab 1 again)?

Yea you can, but Fox could be ready for that and Jab Jab > Grab > U-throw for a setup (Footstool, U-air, B-air etc.)

Either way, it's a dominant position for Fox, especially against fast-fallers. I presume it can come up a lot more than regular Sm4sh, since most of the action/followups happen low to the ground.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

It's overall gonna be worse than Smash 4's Vanilla gameplay, then. In Vanilla, iirc, you can just infinite the jab on most characters and then get a guaranteed follow-up. Here, they have the option to DI into shield, meaning that it isn't totally consistent and has a chance of Fox getting punished against a smart player. I guess it'd be treated as Palutena or Marth's jab instead of Fox's jabjabjabjabjabjabjabjabjab.

also Fox's SH F-Air always knocks down an opponent which is kinda dumb. You can literally just SH F-Air > F-Tilt until like 50%, and then start using SH F-Air > U-Tilt until kill percents, and then just U-Smash. Obviously you can tech to avoid it, but wow you get basically anything off of it. How much landing lag does it have?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Hey all! I know how much Smashers love announcements of things that are incredibly vague, so I'm here to say I did something special for SLHG and it'll be out sometimes soon. Keep a lookout for it!

 

[ZADD]

I guess it'd be treated as Palutena or Marth's jab instead of Fox's jabjabjabjabjabjabjabjabjab.

I agree, the point I was trying to make is that Fox's Jab Jab is a setup that an optimized Fox should use frequently in his mix-ups for pressure, especially after a FF D-air or F-air like you said. It's safe and you can really get a lot out of it, like a grab setup or a meaty U-smash.

 

[blargh257]

Hey all! I know how much Smashers love announcements of things that are incredibly vague, so I'm here to say I did something special for SLHG and it'll be out sometimes soon. Keep a lookout for it!

Well, uh, thanks for that. Thank you very much.

 

[WhatsInAUsername]

Hey all! I know how much Smashers love announcements of things that are incredibly vague, so I'm here to say I did something special for SLHG and it'll be out sometimes soon. Keep a lookout for it!

If you're behind it, I'm excited!

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

I just wanted to ask if there's a way to rejoin the group because I got annoyed by the notifications and I left the group.

Hey all! I know how much Smashers love announcements of things that are incredibly vague, so I'm here to say I did something special for SLHG and it'll be out sometimes soon. Keep a lookout for it!

HOLY ****

Do you need footage? I got plenty of footage. Do you want anything else? A hug? Some water?

 

[LiteralGrill]

I have footage don't worry @ ArtfulHobbes ! I expect it up maybe on.... Saturday? I'll be sure to pop links in here too

 

[VeggieSteel]

SmashCapps doing *SOMETHING* for SLHG?!

I think we're about to blow up, boys! So hype!


Anyway...
I can attest that Megaman also gets a big reward from a jab lock, which is pretty easy for him to hit since his jab is a projectile. Sweet spot nair works at most percents, and after ~50% he can falling fair for the knockdown. If the opponent misses their tech, you just jab/ftilt three times into an up-tilt or a charged down smash, which kills really early. It's probably not at the same level as Pikachu's quick attack antics, but it's a great kill option when it works.

 

[ZADD]

Speaking of news for SLHG, I've been talking to a local TO, and he agreed to help set up an SLHG side-tourney at our next local.
(or atleast have friendlies of it set up to inspire interest.)

I know it's not really huge, but it's a small step we've never taken! The TO seems pretty interested in SLHG too, which is awesome. CO has a very dedicated PM playerbase, so I could picture quite a few players seeing value in SLHG and picking it up.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

If we're detailing what's currently going on, Hobbles and I are in the process of making a new thread to represent SLHG, a ton of informational videos showing how to set it up, how to recover with characters like Sonic, video demos of certain characters (ex: PM Character Trailers), along with a montage full of SLHG combos to show off it's potential.

I'll elaborate later today if I get the chance, but Sonic actually has a great recovery unless you're fighting someone like Marth. Also, I'm pretty sure Marth is in the top 10 or top 5 here, he's a combination of every Marth we've seen in a Smash game so far after 1.0.8 dropped.

A bit unrelated but Jigglypuff may struggle in SLHG as Marth directly counters her. Marth can grab release her into tipper F-Smash which kills incredibly early, especially considering she's the lightest character in the game. The only way to avoid it is to use Rest due to the f1 invincibility, but that just leads to a stronger punish. It should be said that Marth's Tipper F-Smash on grab release is the only notable grab release combo, and Jigglypuff is the only character grab release combos can really be used on in the first place. Only incredibly fast longer ranged moves can punish her grab release so it's really only Marth who'll be abusing it.

 

[cerealkiller]

Marth can grab release her into tipper F-Smash

Do you know/have tested this against other characters?

 

[ZADD]

A bit unrelated but Jigglypuff may struggle in SLHG as Marth directly counters her.

With a roster of this size, and the technical capabilities of SLHG, I'd presume there to be quite a few polarizing match-up within the meta, at least more than one (Palutena vs. Olimar can be pretty rough...)
I've put some time into Jiggs and her rest setups are really strong, but she's not as deadly as her Melee self (now it takes 2 rest combos to take a stock, instead of 1)...

Another slight issue she has is that it takes 2 jumps to initate any B-air pressure. She hits the ground before she can jump again :/
B-air still has punishable endlag which doesn't help either.

 

[Muro]

Hey all! I know how much Smashers love announcements of things that are incredibly vague, so I'm here to say I did something special for SLHG and it'll be out sometimes soon. Keep a lookout for it!

wow thanks so much man, can't wait to see what you have in store!

Speaking of news for SLHG, I've been talking to a local TO, and he agreed to help set up an SLHG side-tourney at our next local.
(or atleast have friendlies of it set up to inspire interest.)

I know it's not really huge, but it's a small step we've never taken! The TO seems pretty interested in SLHG too, which is awesome. CO has a very dedicated PM playerbase, so I could picture quite a few players seeing value in SLHG and picking it up.

That's actually big news, save us some replays dude. Nice to see people warming up to SLHG.

If we're detailing what's currently going on, Hobbles and I are in the process of making a new thread to represent SLHG, a ton of informational videos showing how to set it up, how to recover with characters like Sonic, video demos of certain characters (ex: PM Character Trailers), along with a montage full of SLHG combos to show off it's potential.

I'll elaborate later today if I get the chance, but Sonic actually has a great recovery unless you're fighting someone like Marth. Also, I'm pretty sure Marth is in the top 10 or top 5 here, he's a combination of every Marth we've seen in a Smash game so far after 1.0.8 dropped.

That just sounds great. You guys have been putting in lots of work, can't wait to see it all come together.

All around good news it seems SLHG is so awesome!

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Do you know/have tested this against other characters?

Mhm. You can Stutterstep F-Smash on Ness and Lucas, but it isn't guaranteed so there's a small window to escape. It generally isn't reliable however as both of them are combo monsters so whiffing a F-Smash is instant death.

Marth has pretty good grab release traps, though. His new Jab sets up into basically everything, and tipper Jab 1 and 2 do insane shield damage. This allows him to use things like Grounded Grab Release > Jab into F-Smash, F-Tilt or U-Tilt. The opponent can act on the same frame as Marth so it's possible to shield the jab, but if the opponent continues to shield to avoid the follow-up, Shield Breaker uncharged will pop it. It's really just another mix-up tool for Marth.

 

[Muro]

Let's talk about lucas. His recovery seems to be very good, the tether grabs the ledge in very low positions and his up B goes very high. His up B seems amazing for edgeguarding, Ness' up B kinda pops people up, but Lucas' up B pushes them away and keeps going.. all this with no risk to himself. Onstage the tether seems like a good spacing tool and he's got plenty of combos from what I can see, looks like a high tier.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Let's talk about lucas. His recovery seems to be very good, the tether grabs the ledge in very low positions and his up B goes very high. His up B seems amazing for edgeguarding, Ness' up B kinda pops people up, but Lucas' up B pushes them away and keeps going.. all this with no risk to himself. Onstage the tether seems like a good spacing tool and he's got plenty of combos from what I can see, looks like a high tier.

Should be noted that video is from my Day 2 Lucas after not playing Smash or SLHG for around 2 months. There's more recent clips once I got back into the flow on Hobbles' channel Vs. Blargh if mind serves me well.

Lucas is definitely good but he's HARD to use. It's 5AM and I didn't go to sleep last night either so I'm too tired to elaborate. Aggro Lucas is more fun but defensive Lucas seems to work better.

 

[ZADD]

Aggro Lucas is more fun but defensive Lucas seems to work better.

Well said, he can have insane pressure in the right hands, but it takes skill to use his attacks in an un-punishable way. I find that Lucas does really well at getting damage, but his kill set ups are pretty weak. It takes a good read to finish off a stock.
Maybe a smart Up-B edge-guard or two.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Ladies and Gentleman, let's talk about Sheik. We've known for a while that Sheik was the best character in this mode, but me and Reserved did some tests and we can conclude that not only is Sheik the best character here but she is without a doubt, broken with the smooth lander badge. Having a 6 frame landing lag fair and nair and the ability to fire those off in rapid succession is way too good and it doesn't help that fair has a disjointed hitbox.

How can we fix this? Well getting rid of her smooth lander badge to start. However this opens up the problem of having to find someway to fix her stats if we want to use Moonlauncher on her. Now Sheik doesn't really use Moonlaunchers ability too well on different attacks. The only notable ones are f-tilt which does 1% more and downtilt which does 1-2% more. Sheik rarely kills from the top anyways and will more or less rely on edgeguards and gimps to secure the stock.

So, to solve the Sheik bullcrap problem, I would propose that she does not use any custom equipment pieces and goes in full vanilla, only using the Heavy Gravity to aid her. Maybe if we play around with this, we can see if Sheik will be fine or not.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Honestly, I think that'd be the best way to balance her out with everyone else. If mind serves me well, the only other f6 aerials that exist are Link's N-Air and B-Air, Lucario's N-Air and B-Air, Zero Suit's N-Air and U-Air, along with Falcon's U-Air. Zero Suit's N-Air is still punishable unless spaced like it should be in default Smash 4, where it's unpunishable anyways. Link and Lucario are still punishable unless the aerials are retreating or they land directly after throwing the move out, and Falcon's U-Air isn't really changed at all.

Frame 10 aerials in default are changed to f7 aerials here, and they're still punishable unless spaced properly/retreating as they should be.

 

[Muro]

what the hell... not a single tournament and already calling for nerfs? Are you serious? Stop trying to balance the game...

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Sheik can spam her moves and is completely safe on shield regardless of spacing. Frame 6 aerials didn't even exist in Melee, while Sheik has two. Landing lag is overall increased in SLHG compared to Melee yet Sheik has better frame data than Melee characters.

pls. this is an inherent flaw created in not being able to balance the game. SLHG will be worse than Smash 4 in that Sheik will be the only present character considering she's dominant over basically everybody in the roster.

 

[Muro]

this video here says 7 frames

Is it outdated or incorrect? Melee doesn't have the defensive options smash 4 has, and they seem to cope well with shines. I don't even think shiek is the best character but that's besides the point. You don't just ban/nerf a character without experimenting it in a tournament setting first.

Plus, the game is still getting patches, and she's next on the chopping block.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

It's not really a nerf when you're just removing 3 frames from an already amazing character. Literally nothing changes about Sheik without her Smooth Lander Badge other than she can't spam her moves without any risk. Sheik is the best character regardless of what Pikachu can do because she shuts down every option anybody has. Also, that's incorrect. Originally f9 moves are changed to f7.

I see where you're coming from, though. I really don't know how SLHG will continue if more problems like this arise. People say that others are made closer to Sheik, but that isn't true as SLHG Sheik has distanced herself from everybody else.