Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

[Muro]

According to the video:
fair: 10 -> 7
nair: 10 -> 7
bair: 12 -> 9
Could you check again just so we're certain? I don't actually know how to test it myself.

Even if they are frame 6 this is a non problem. She might be the best character, but somebody's gotta be. I don't even think she is though.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I'm just going off this chart:

https://m.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2iux2m/aerial_landing_lag_with_smooth_lander_items/

Obviously some things are incorrect because patches but it seems to be correct. Honestly, I didn't know any f9 aerials existed in this game until I saw this chart. So I can't really say for certain who's right without testing now. Sheik having f7 aerials doesn't change the fact that they're unpunishable, but I guess that'd alleviate the problem somewhat as f7 aerials existed in Melee.

Actually, because I want to know this, I'll test out Sheik and Falcon later. If that data is wrong then we may need to recalculate everybody's landing lag to make sure that things are right which is gonna be a pain.

Also, Bowser may be the most buffed character with Moon Launcher. He does like 20%+ just for landing an U-Air or N-Air, lol.

 

[Muro]

Dude, @NatP tech chases me with Ganon's side B on battlefield's platforms into up-smash.... that **** hurts lol

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Just to clarify, though, the actual problem is that Sheik's aerials are safe on shield regardless of spacing. Not many aerials are like that, and those that are have weaknesses of their own to hold them back. An example is that Marth's tipper aerials are safe on shield, but that requires spacing. Kirby's B-Air is safe on shield, but that requires spacing.

Basically, we're trying to avoid being able to throw out moves without any risk. The only character that can really do this is Sheik, everybody else is relatively fine. Taking away her Smooth Lander Badge fixes this without breaking the character as her landing lag is still on par and better than 90% of the cast.

 

[Muro]

She can still get shield grabbed and up-b'd if she hits a shield with a badly spaced fair or nair. You can also challenge her aerials instead of shielding them. I mean it's character dependent but you can definitely fight her even if she is a good character.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Hobbles and I tested it last night. She can only be punished if she tries to throw out an attack directly after landing with F-Air or N-Air. She can run away before the grab comes out as grab ranges in this game are really bad. I didn't test Dolphin Slash OoS, though. That wouldn't change much however considering barely anybody has a move of the same caliber as Dolphin Slash.

Irrelevant but Lucas' full hop N-Air can be fast falled so the last hit comes out right as Lucas touches the ground, giving him a multitude of options to continue a combo.

 

[Muro]

Did you test online? That could make it difficult to grab as soon as possible. Notice she's not just suffering from landing lag, she's having hitlag also from hitting the shield, there's no way you shouldn't be able to grab her unless she spaces right. How many frames are grabs in this game and which characters did you test with?

Even if it is safe, that doesn't make her broken since she pretty much had to commit to throwing out the move later in order to enjoy the best frame advantage possible, and even then there's still power shield.

I feel like you guys are making a big deal out of something that isn't that big of a deal. If she's broken it'll show at tournaments, but between now and then, who knows how many patches there will be and how will she be affected really.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Oh, she isn't broken. That's a really strong word to use. She's just made into an even better character than she already is, and she completely dominates vanilla. We'll need actual play from Sheik to decide, but there's a high chance she'll be stupid unless some nerfs come her way.

Hobbles and I tested online while I tested offline with my brother to make sure it wasn't input lag. I tested with Kirby and Mega Man. Kirby has one of, if not the shortest f6 grab, while Mega Man has the longest f6 grab. Neither could grab Sheik if she retreated after landing.

Also, the person getting their shield struck is stuck in block freeze frames, too. Not just the aggressor.

I finished testing a couple minutes ago and, with a lot of precision, Lucas can travel under Final Destination in SLHG.

EDIT: Actually, let's abuse Sheik's weight. More kill set-ups are present in SLHG. Everybody, drop some kill set-ups for your characters so I can test it on Sheik.

Also, @ Muro , it's good we're discussing things like this right now so the new thread won't be plagued with stuff like this. Is there any other controversial stuff to talk about?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

So I decided to finally give Dedede another test run in SLHG even though I use him in vanilla and...holy crap. His throw follow up in this mode is ridiculous. He can just about true combo you from grab up until 100%, and even then you can chase with uairs and air dodge bait and stuff. You also have some good mix-ups from grab that carry over from vanilla but might be more viable here because of the reduced landing lag. He plummets like a brick though so some of his off-stage options are weaker, but eh...Dedede has really strong ledge traps anyways, and you can afford to jump off with a fair or something and still be able to recover if spaced well.

I'm interested in trying him out in an actual match though. Theory crafting and testing on CPUs is one thing, but actual matches are another.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Also should be said that Gordo, one of Dedede's best tools, gets a buff from Moon Launcher. The first two hits of his jab get a buff, too, so he can use it to set up into grabs with even more reward.

 

[Muro]

hmm more controversial stuff: kirby up-tilt on heavies is gonna bum a lot of people I think. Also shiek ftilt is also pretty good for the same reasons and doesn't require spacing as precise. Like I said she's pretty easy to play lol.

These issues are a bit problematic, but DI counters a good deal of them. Sometimes just DI'ing down and holding shield is enough, sometimes the correct DI is away, it depends on spacing. Sometimes you can also throw out a move in between getting hit to interrupt the tilts, but sometimes for some characters you're really gonna eat a ton of damage if you're caugh in a bad spot. Characters with big frames suffer especially.

Shieks weaknesses are that she can't kill early outside of gimps, and her recovery while good is also easy to time when she snaps to the ledge with up B. I feel that will be easily exploited since she'll be forced to up b a lot more in HG. She'll have a hard time against characters she can't gimp.

I'm interested in trying him out in an actual match though. Theory crafting and testing on CPUs is one thing, but actual matches are another.

You've never played with other people? Wanna go now? We'll probably have some lag but It's better than CPUs

edit: I don't really have many kill setups, I usually make it up as I go along, but two bread and butter moves I use are fair to upsmash with pikachu, and nair to dsmash with mario. I'm sure there are plenty of these combinations in SLHG.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Oh I've played with other people in the past, but not very often. I guess I'm up for a few games, just send me a friend request and I'll add you in a few minutes. Gonna keep messing around with the CPUs in the meantime.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Who does everybody here main? After long thinking, I've decided on Kirby, Marth, Lucas and Villager as my mains. It's cool how I can play my four favorite characters without feeling that I'm at a disadvantage. Testing stuff with Lucas that I'll post later.

 

[Muro]

Test edgeguarding with up B, that seems like it's a great tool for lucas.

I main Pikachu and secondary falco btw. I'm still looking for another secondary, currently experimenting with Ike.

 

[VeggieSteel]

I mostly play the same three characters that I use for vanilla: Megaman, Dedede, and Doc. I've been wanting to pick up one of the sword fighters specifically for SLHG. I feel like either Marth or Ike would be pretty fun for me.

Dedede is lots of fun in SLHG! He's still combo food, but having four jumps plus his up-B means his recovery in SLHG is better than most, as opposed to being pretty average in vanilla. He falls incredibly fast, and can bait attacks and punish with falling nair or a grab surprisingly quickly. Down throw --> fast fall up air--> regrab, I think, works on characters who don't have a fast nair, and reminds me of his chaingrab antics in Brawl.

 

[ZADD]

what the hell... not a single tournament and already calling for nerfs? Are you serious? Stop trying to balance the game...

I agree 100%, Let's be honest... Sheik is already top of the top in regular Sm4sh, so it's not at all a surprise to me that she is exceedingly powerful with Smooth Lander.

I'm 100% confident that Sheik can be walled out by a skilled Rosaluma, Peach, or even a good Marth. Sheik isn't broken, she is still definitely punishiable on block (as hard as it is). Her kill options are lackluster, and she doesn't have any strong combo breakers, other than N-air.

Sure, she can shut out quite a few characters. But that is a problem for all of Sm4sh, not just SLHG...

Edit: I main Falco and Palutena. I've gone over Palutena before, but she is mostly based on 50/50's and frame traps. Her punish game is something to be feared.

Falco is top 10 IMO. U-tilt to N-air/B-air is the sole reason I put him above Fox. That setup is both reliable and forgiving on most of the cast (including Sheik).

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Dthrow -> Up B is my new favorite Link combo. It works at kill percents. You can probably DI out of it, but I think if Link mashes correctly (sorta like dthrow down b for vanilla Luigi) it'll trap you in it for the final launching hit.

Jab reset with an arrow into a slightly charged ground Up B with Link is also incredibly dangerous, granted I had rage but I killed @ Muro 's Pikachu with it center stage just slightly above 80%.

 

[Muro]

I tried to DI out of the down throw but I think the up-B is unavoidable. I did pop out of the up-B a couple of times before the last hit but dunno how.

That jab reset with the arrow was cool as **** dude.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I tried to DI out of the down throw but I think the up-B is unavoidable. I did pop out of the up-B a couple of times before the last hit but dunno how.

That jab reset with the arrow was cool as **** dude.

I don't usually get jab resets so I sort of panicked when I got it the first time and tried for the grab. The next time it happened I was prepared for it so I went for up b instead.

The few times you popped out of the dthrow -> up b, I think you were around 140% so maybe the percent range where it's an unavoidable kill is tight? It's something that probably needs to be tested.

 

[Muro]

Another thing I think we should consider is Dreamland as a starter. Those platforms are very high I'm not sure it's suited to be a starter, even if I do like the stage a whole lot more than Lylat.

If I did it purely by preference I'd have only 3 starters with smashville, T&C and battlefield, but I think FD is really popular that would never stick lol.

We could also use a different system removing the distinction between starter and counterpick. I've seen it suggested here on the boards but I didn't look too much into it to see its pros/cons.

What do you guys think?

edit: also, what do you guys think about officially switching to the name "Smooth Gravity" for the mode with the new thread?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Smooth Gravity is the currently planned name, yeah.

We shouldn't change the starter/counterpick, it'd make things a bit more annoying and inconsistent with other Smash games. It can be looked in to, but I doubt the final result would be cutting the system.

I can't really comment on stages themselves, though. I like Dreamland but Whispy makes it a bit odd, platforms are really high and the blast zones resemble Battlefield from previous games. Dreamland and Battlefield basically switched blast zones in this game. It should be noted that Pikachu has no Quick Attack lag on Dreamland for whatever reason.

3 stage starter list is bad. We should have at least four or five starters imo.

 

[ZADD]

3 stage starter list is bad. We should have at least four or five starters imo.

I'm a fan of having 7 legal stages, 5 starters and 2 counter-picks.

If we're going for very balanced stages, with very little jankiness to them, I say we don't use Delfino, Castle Siege, and Duck Hunt.

Final Destination - Most free space, aerial juggles and grab combos reign supreme here. Great for Floaties.
Battlefield - Most generic stage. No outliers like wind or shorter blastzones. Great for Fast-fallers.
Dreamland - Has a random element of gameplay, Wind. It actually comes up a lot since most action is low/on the ground.
Smashville - Longgggg. Horizontal combos work really well with the moving platform. Defensive characters can easily camp the platform off-stage.
Town and City - IMO the most balanced stage. There is a niche transformation that benefits every style. Don't get caught on leaving platforms and you're fine.

Lylat Cruise - Great counter to projectile pressure. Also great against characters with shaky recoveries.
Halberd - Lower ceiling. Sharking is more dangerous since jumps don't always put you above the platform.

If Yoshi's Story or Fountain of Dreams from Melee become DLC in the future. I'd petition to put them in Counter-picks.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I'll continue to defend Delphino as an okay stage, but it's one we don't really need to use either.

Agree with ditching Duck Hunt. That stage is bad enough (but playable) in vanilla Smash 4, the heavy gravity only serves to make it so many characters can't reach the higher platforms without being wide open for a free punish. I'm a bit biased as Dedede player, but he barely gains any height off his jumps and his Up B has reduced height. I'll have to test if he can reach that lower tree platform, but if he can both of his landing options are way too laggy for him to effectively chase characters launched up there or those with good mobility that can actually reach the higher platforms.

I personally dislike Castle Siege as a stage, so I wouldn't mind seeing it gone, but it could use some testing to see how the heavy gravity interacts with the stage (specifically, transformation 2).

Wind on Dream Land is actually pretty hilarious for Dedede. When he swallows an opponent, they can wiggle around which disrupts Dedede's ability to move around and it kinda shifts him left and right...well, when he's on the edge of Dream Land and they're doing this, the wind will push Dedede off the stage and because he's so heavy he just instantly plummets to the blastzone.

This is just an imo thing but...whenever possible, I think we should use Miiverse over Battlefield. So that doesn't exactly work out online, but offline my reasoning is that Battlefield has really jank ledges, and the side of its wall is only actually a wall about halfway down the stage. So characters like Zelda and Mewtwo, their recoveries get redirected by a ceiling that doesn't actually appear to be there and they die because they couldn't ride up the wall. Other characters like Meta Knight can get trapped under this ceiling, which again it appears to be a wall but isn't.

At least on other stages where this could be an issue like Dream Land and Miiverse, the point where the stage is a ceiling and the part it becomes a wall is clearly defined.

As for the ledges, this is all vanilla but applies to SLHG as well:

I think the problems with the stage become more exaggerated when playing SLHG just because the ledge game becomes more important when recoveries are generally nerfed across the board. Speaking from personal experience, I've had far more problems with Battlefield in SLHG than I have in vanilla Smash 4. I wouldn't say it's a big enough problem to ditch the stage entirely, but I do think we should encourage use of Miiverse whenever possible...

 

[Aunt Jemima]

The Miiverse stage is incredibly distracting and isn't moderated at all. I prefer it over Battlefield, but it really wouldn't work. Having a **** show up in the background during Grand Finals, while funny, would be really... odd. I've never had a problem with Battlefield ledges, though.

I like Delfino and don't see a problem with it, I like the variety it adds to the game. I can see why people don't like it but it seems fine as a counterpick.

 

[Shog]

The Miiverse stage is incredibly distracting and isn't moderated at all. I prefer it over Battlefield, but it really wouldn't work. Having a **** show up in the background during Grand Finals, while funny, would be really... odd. I've never had a problem with Battlefield ledges, though.
.

You can disable messages, problem solved

 

[JCOnyx]

You can turn off the post that show up in the background on Miiverse though.

EDIT: Ninjad...

 

[VeggieSteel]

@ Aunt Jemima IIRC, the pop ups on Miiverse can be turned off, which is what I've seen tournaments doing where the stage is used.

Wow, some of those battlefield kills are super janky. I've gotten the getup attack spike before, but seeing smash attacks hit characters below the stage is, really bad design, frankly. Surely that will be fixed in a patch at some point.

I'm against duck hunt as well, but don't really have a strong opinion regarding Delfino or Castle Seige.

Edit: double ninja'd

 

[Fundingle]

Id go..

-Starters_
FD/omega
Battlefield
Smashville
Halberd
Dreamland

-Counter Stages-
Delfino Plaza
Town and City
Castle Siege
Kongo Jungle 64
Lylat Cruise

But what do i know.. Im total newb

 

[Fundingle]

btw have there been or will there be any SLHG tournaments that have been streamed or put on youtube and casted?

 

[Muro]

.

.

Hi there, welcome to the thread and to the boards. Instead of making two individual consecutive posts next time use the edit function because double posting will get you an infraction by the mod team.

Now to answer you.
Halberd as a starter is something I hadn't considered but might actually be a good idea for SLHG. The ceiling is low but vertical kills were nerfed in SLHG. It has other effects and transformations but I don't think any of them are too intrusive, I'd be fine with it as a starter.

As of now there hasn't been any streamed tournaments, although there have been a few streams. We're in the process of trying to make it grow, you can be a part of this as well if you feel like it. There are some videos in the OP check them out. @ ArtfulHobbes and @ ZADD have a lot of PvP's up on their channels.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

As far as I know, no real SLHG tournaments have been made yet. I think a couple of people here are looking to fix that problem, and it'd be something I'd be interested in doing if I had any experience running tournaments as well...

On Miiverse- yeah everyone pretty much beat me to it. You can turn off the messages in the background from what I've heard. Again it's really just my personal preference, but the way I see it as, if we have a superior version of Battlefield to work with, why not use it over the regular version? Besides for online use, of course, which is something I hope will get addressed in the future...

Or maybe Battlefield itself will be edited in the future. Wouldn't be the first time a stage had its collisions changed between patch versions, seeing as how it happened to Lylat Cruise.

 

[Fundingle]

Oh my bad on the double post thing >///< ima total newb sorry! I played lots of the old smash stuff but never for more then a few months. I got smash 4 and just started watching competitive smash bros and its pretty cool. So then i was reading this forum a bit and tried out the SLHG stuff and i really like it because its so much easier to short jump. So umm I just saw that battlefield video and yeah that looks very odd soo here is my revised stage list XD

-Starters_
FD/omega
Miiverse/without posts
Smashville
Halberd
Dreamland 64

-Counter Stages-
Delfino Plaza
Town and City
Castle Siege
Kongo Jungle 64
Pokemon Stadium 2 *how do people feel about this stage?* i like it in heavy gravity and also i dont really like lylat.


Also ive told some friends about this but they didnt seem to like it that much. But they said if there was a tournament that used it then they would give it a shot. So I really think if there was like a mini tournament that was casted it would bring in more players maybe.

 

[ZADD]

-Counter Stages-
Delfino Plaza
Town and City
Castle Siege
Kongo Jungle 64
Pokemon Stadium 2 *how do people feel about this stage?* i like it in heavy gravity and also i dont really like lylat.

Kongo 64 is pretty dumb sometimes. The slant in the middle greatly favors certain characters, and almost every match goes to timeout since it's so big. I like Pokemon Stadium 2, but it's not a tournament viable stage. The hazards only disrupt the action, they don't add anything to it.

Halberd represents the definition of a Counter-pick to me. Way lower ceiling, permeable floor, and hazards galore. Starters need to be neutral, not intrusive in nature. Lylat, Halberd, and Delfino all have factors that force players to adjust to their surroundings.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Hey guys! So I was able to get 3 people together for some Smooth Gravity doubles. Now they still had the mindset of Smash 4 so they weren't the best players... but regardless we had 2 really cool moments.

We got a Wombo Combo moment. And it was on me.... *cry*

And the second one was just a fun match with a comeback at the end done by yours truly.

 

[Fundingle]

Halberd has the same type of slant as kongo jungle and i think kj64 is a nice stage for SLHG with the barrel to help characters with bad get back like sonic. Also the heavy gravity aspect from my view point pretty much makes up for the far away blastzones. Even if you dont get killed off the sides you will probably die from falling with the nerfed recovery. As for pokemon stadium 2 i think the hazards would be cool for competitive play and allow for perhaps new types of combos that people might not know about right now. It seems like a good counter pick where it plays very differently depending on the stage type you get during play.

As for starters i kinda think there should be a mix of those type of stages. More interesting to watch imo. Then again I don't really play so guess my view doesn't count

Also curious have any zelda mains been playing SLHG ive been thinking about giving her a go. I think she may be under rated a bit. Im pretty new to the smash stuff I guess just take my view point as a new players view point.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I've been using Zelda a fair bit in SLHG. She's neither my best character nor anywhere near one of the top characters, but she has a devastating punish game. I also think she has some of the stronger tech chase options in this game if you're good at reads, and she's got good tools for restricting your opponent's recovery.

Combo game leaves a bit to be desired, and it can be hard to get an opening on your opponent, but there's something about her playstyle that's really satisfying. I would recommend for more people to try her out, but she's not quite as straightforward as some of the current favorites.

 

[ZADD]

Halberd has the same type of slant as kongo jungle and i think kj64 is a nice stage for SLHG with the barrel to help characters with bad get back like sonic.

As for pokemon stadium 2 i think the hazards would be cool for competitive play and allow for perhaps new types of combos that people might not know about right now.

Halberd's slants are considerable less slanted, it makes a huge difference for characters that rely on projectiles. The barrel is the most anti-competitve aspect of KJ64... Why would you want an easy get-outta-jail free card for everyone? No one would ever die... Not fair at all.

Pokemon Stadium doesn't really allow combos tho... the wind makes combos less effective, the ice makes pivots exceptionally hard, and the moving platforms cause plenty of SD's. Like I said, PS2 is cool and all, but it's not good for tournaments.

BTW Sonic's recovery is actually really good horizontally. A good Sonic isn't sent below the ledge often anyway, he fights on-stage.

 

[Fundingle]

This video is how i feel

Yeah I guess I agree but idk i think kongo jungle should be tried at least. Maybe it already has and i just don't know.

 

[VeggieSteel]

Hi, Welcome to Smashboards!

I'd encourage people to try whatever they like in friendlies, that's a big part of how we can identify potential problems. The unified ruleset is mostly building towards an even playing field for tournaments, which should be catching on in the near future.

That said, I am pretty worried about slower characters getting camped pretty hard by fast characters with better jumps, since kongo jungle is really big and has high platforms. That's letting alone the issue of barrel camping.

Edit: As an FYI, short hopping actually functions the same way here in SG as it does in vanilla smash 4. You're likely still doing a full hop, and just not going as high due to the heavy gravity. It's still important to be able to short hop consistently, and it'll become natural with some practice

 

[Aunt Jemima]

You can disable messages, problem solved

Wait, really? Well, there's that.

Miiverse pls