Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

[JCOnyx]

I for one don't understand why DHD deserves a custom UpB. Out of all of them, I actually prefer the default anyways since it gives you the most horizontal range. The others just... plain suck lol

Mega Man should probably get a new UpB though, since he can recover from anywhere with it and can infinitely stall offstage by doing so. It's sooo good though... I'll miss it T_T

 

[Muro]

We don't allow Megaman to use another up-b just because, his situation is not comparable to DHD. We banned his up-b because of the same reason we banned the IDC glitch for MK, it's too good as a stalling tool. We could make a rule to limit it somehow but why bother when we have an easily attainable custom from the challenge rewards? Just slap that on and avoid having some arbitrary rule about how many times he can up-b in succession.

I think customs banned is a must. We really do not want windbox: the game when characters already have a hard time recovering. Gimps or recoveries should rely on precise spacing and timing, not janky windboxes. Like I said before, I hate how many of the custom moves reduce the complexity in the game, flat out taking away character defining flaws.

Most of the customs can be attributed to one of these:

- better recoveries, making it too easy to bypass edgeguards altogether.
- better projectiles, making it too easy to camp.
- windboxes, no spacing needed thank you very much!
- flying hitboxes across the stage, see windboxes.

These all have a general effect of simplifying the game to the point that it becomes a joke. 50:50 read on a airdodge? Eat my custom BS that kills at 50%, no skill required. If I don't get it now I'll get it at 60% no worries.

I would possibly make an exception for DHD, but even then it's not warranted. It would be like the DDD/DK infinite on brawl, it's very arbitrary but whatever. Still, DHD shouldn't get a pass IMO.

The very rare instances where there are custom moves that actually make sense are not worth it to deal with the logistical problems and the rest of degenerative customs. Also, banning certain customs and allowing others is gonna be even more problematic because it becomes too complicated to make a consistent criteria to decide which should be allowed (it would always be very subjective with everyone trying to buff their mains).

I feel like custom moves were always introduced to coddle low tier when that is completely misguided. Low tiers will be low tiers, let's try to have a healthy metagame at the top, because that's what we're gonna be playing/watching most. And those high tiers need their flaws.

On the topic of 3/4 stock. I've been playing with 3 but for some reason always feels like too little. I'm starting to shift to 4-stock more and more. I'll probably try it today if I get a chance. I'm also a bit apprehensive because some characters can really camp hard, but maybe that's just possible against low tiers, I'll have to try it out for myself first before forming an oppinion.

 

[Marachii]

I agree that customs should be a bit more open to interpenetration, mostly because since this is almost exclusively community controlled, we have a lot more flexibility when it comes to balancing new tech that's just straight up impossible to fight. Like Megaman's rush.

I support standardized custom sets with SLHG. If you argue that grinding for certain customs are gonna be a turn-off, competitive Sm4sh ALREADY requires you to do that, so what's just getting the moves you need for your main? Or whoever else you wanna pick? Heck, I got all of Cpt. Falcon's customs in like an hour via Trophy Rush.

As for 4 stock vs 3 stock, I kinda agree with that guy that said 3 stock is better. This game at its core is still Sm4sh, and its defensive options are better than PM and Melee in my opinion.

 

[Muro]

Regardless of everything else, you gotta realize customs SLHG can't coexist with customs base on the same wii U. That is a major impediment for anyone willing to try it as a side event.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I support standardized custom sets with SLHG. If you argue that grinding for certain customs are gonna be a turn-off, competitive Sm4sh ALREADY requires you to do that, so what's just getting the moves you need for your main? Or whoever else you wanna pick? Heck, I got all of Cpt. Falcon's customs in like an hour via Trophy Rush.

We're talking about tournament rules here. If you're expecting all Wii Us at a tournament to have every custom move in the game without transfers... lol.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

I think it comes down to the resources available, how many customs on each system are unlocked, and what sets are in play.

I think it's going to come down to: What custom moves make this character actually viable/better enough to handle being in the meta. Palutena already comes with hers so I think experimenting with her is fine. But poor Charizard needs something.

But I will agree with Muro on banning windbox customs. So no Dongnado or Tempest for Ike. Because frankly wind is kinda stupid for edgeguarding in this mode.

The only exclusion in my opinion is Super Duck Jump.

 

[ZADD]

Skyloft is something I think we should bring back. With the exclusion of Delfino, we could bring back this moving stage as a CP. It could be used against slower moving characters as they try to keep up from faster moving characters and the transitions. Something to look into.

Like I said, Castle Seige and Skyloft are debatable. But this could provide a slightly bigger stage selection and 2 bans instead of just 1.

Another thing to consider is that Town and City has VERY short blast zones. The height of the beginning platforms seem like more of a Counterpick to me, but It could also be a starter too since the platforms aren't as easy to combo with on Heavy Gravity. Big arguments could be made to move Lylat Cruise to CP, because no one will ever pick to go there as a "Neutral" if they know they can ban it right off the bat. Most people don't like Lylat, which is why it's truly a counterpick.

 

[blargh257]

4 stocks, having thought it over I think that players will gradually get better at forming openings and taking stock. All of us on the KotH with the exception of Reserved/TRC/jda7/rynhardt are pretty bad, at least I think so, but as we get better conversions will come more naturally and frequently. 8 or nine minutes, probably eight since nine is absurd.
No customs except for Mega Man's up B 2, HSB and windboxes break this.
Stages are everything stated except maybe Castle Siege because of the second transformation but that doesn't last too long.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Castle Siege and Duck Hunt should be banned. Duck Hunt has awful platform placement so you can actually camp there, Castle Siege is generally janky during some transformations because of the physic changes. Skyloft is probably fine, I can't comment on Delfino but I've had no problems with it. Lylat Cruise shouldn't be a neutral considering the tilting affecting some characters.

Also, @Spirst, tell them about Ganon ;D

 

[Muro]

Played a ton of matches with 4 stock today and it felt nice. My sparring partner thinks so too. We can always change it back if it proves too much but I think it's gonna be fine.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

How many unviable characters do you think we have in this mode? Because once we get the online buffering out of the picture, I think we'll see a lot of characters make a staple and other heavy hitters fall in the ranks.

So far I think Ganon and Charizard are gonna fall from the ranks even with customs.

tell them about Ganon ;D

Also what about Ganon??????

 

[DNeon]

I'll start with stages since I think this topic need a bit more input first:

Starters:
I think keeping it at 5 is somewhat more ideal. I heavily dislike the Smashville only first game meta, and though SLHG is going to bring around more Battlefield it's still going to be very heavily stagnant for the first game. I like Town and City there, although Lylat is definitely debatable. Here's hoping for a map pack DLC (Fountain of Dreams for the kirby stage bug anyone?) to fill a bit of the void here (or the option to turn hazards off to allow some Stadium action).

CP:
I agree with removing Castle Siege and Duck Hunt from the CP stages. If there really is an issue with Delfino like people are saying then I support either Skyloft or Wuhu to replace it maybe both but that might not be necessary. Unfortunately there's really nothing else available at this time.

So onto custom moves.

I think starting with them banned is a wise idea, at least until this starts getting momentum, however opening it up to a whitelist of allowed custom moves in the future is definitely something that we should be open about. I agree that windboxes are probably an easy no, and I'm not sure what people are saying about easier recovery customs nullifying edgeguarding since the vast majority of them come without hitboxes, but there is plenty of room for the meta to evolve still and we can't be sure that it's not going to end up polarising even without the involvement of customs.

So definitely starting with them off (sans megaman) and then moving to allow certain customs as the community grows to allow more rigorous testing of them.

 

[DunnoBro]

Most of the customs can be attributed to one of these:

- better recoveries, making it too easy to bypass edgeguards altogether.
- better projectiles, making it too easy to camp.
- windboxes, no spacing needed thank you very much!
- flying hitboxes across the stage, see windboxes.

Uhh, no they can't lol. Please don't talk about customs if you just don't understand them. Of the like 400 customs, there's only 8 or so with windboxes. And most are awful.

Customs work fine in SLHG, there's no more jank than in default rulesets I feel. Obviously people who don't like customs to begin with won't want them here, but aside from scrubby perceptions like all customs being used due to better recoveries/projectiles there's no more issues than in default I see.

That said, SLHG with customs is not logistically feasible at this time. Since the smooth lander sets are on the wii u, not 3ds, meaning you can't upload presets like you can with customs. Also, there'd be issues switching between standard rule customs and SLHG customs on the Wii U.

(It is technically possible via 3ds save editor, but I doubt many have access to those)

Having 9 slots dedicated to customs and 1 for SLHG with default specials (or alterations if deemed needed) is the most efficient way to go about it, I feel.

On the topic of duck hunt's recovery, I don't feel it's really needed to give him a custom one. (Though I do love snag in heavy gravity as a out of shield option. Since it stays in the same spots better, it's also a better edgeguarding tool since you can more effectively set up the stage spike)

 

[Muro]

SLHG with customs is not logistically feasible at this time.

despite our differing opinions, this is all that needs to be said.

 

[ZADD]

Uhh, no they can't lol. Please don't talk about customs if you just don't understand them. Of the like 400 customs, there's only 8 or so with windboxes. And most are awful.

Lol Airbender DKong totally breaks SLHG, if you think he's balanced in any sense then I'm very glad he and other custom sets aren't "logistically feasible".

I think keeping it at 5 is somewhat more ideal. I heavily dislike the Smashville only first game meta, and though SLHG is going to bring around more Battlefield it's still going to be very heavily stagnant for the first game. I like Town and City there, although Lylat is definitely debatable. Here's hoping for a map pack DLC (Fountain of Dreams for the kirby stage bug anyone?) to fill a bit of the void here (or the option to turn hazards off to allow some Stadium action).

I agree! 5 starter stages is healthy for competition, and a lot less stagnant visually. Something that has really crossed my mind is the inclusion of a specific Omega stage in the neutral starters. Preferably a stage with walled sides to assist characters that can wall jump, and to make edge-guarding more exciting! I compiled a list of possible varied Omegas, and categorized them based on grass or not. If you didn't know, Grass affects traction making slides/pivots less effective. It might be a reason to use a stage, to better distinguish it from the regular FD. It could be helpful for certain matchups.

Following info taken from this reddit post. A list of stages with walled sides:
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2tm1vs/all_omegas_are_not_created_equal_more_stage/

"The following stages have a bottom blast zone of 29ft from the ledge:"

Normal Traction:

• Duck Hunt Ω
• Wily Castle Ω
• Gamer Ω
• Garden of Hope Ω
• Wii Fit Studio Ω
• Coliseum Ω
• Onett Ω (Probably shouldn't use due to copyright)

Grass Traction:

• Windy Hill Zone Ω (also a copyright issue)
• Yoshi's Island Ω (edited: I put the wrong stage earlier)

Personally, I like the idea of having Wily Castle Ω/Yoshi's Island Ω as an additional Neutral starter, the other stages either have weird camera angles or bland layouts. Omega stages hardly get used anyway, and this will be a good way to pay tribute to them. The different blast zones and walled sides will without a doubt affect some games, and we can avoid the debate about jankiness from other stages (Wuhu, Pilotwings)

My Preferred Stage List:

Starters: Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Town and City, Yoshi's Island Ω

Counter-picks: Lylat Cruise, Halberd, Castle Siege, Skyloft (maybe), Isle Delfino (Maybe)

 

[DunnoBro]

Lol Airbender DKong totally breaks SLHG, if you think he's balanced in any sense then I'm very glad he and other custom sets aren't "logistically feasible".

I said most.

Kong cyclone definitely doesn't fall under the "Awful" category lol

 

[Muro]

Starters: Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Town and City, Yoshi's Island Ω

Counter-picks: Lylat Cruise, Halberd, Castle Siege, Skyloft (maybe), Isle Delfino (Maybe)

I'd just have a single FD (no omegas) and take out castle siege, skyloft and delfino. Don't really have a strong preference though. Maybe we could add stages through custom stages, I played in one with @ ArtfulHobbes and it was pretty cool. I think it was PS.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

I'd just have a single FD (no omegas) and take out castle siege, skyloft and delfino. Don't really have a strong preference though. Maybe we could add stages through custom stages, I played in one with @ ArtfulHobbes and it was pretty cool. I think it was PS.

Yeah we could make a Universal Neutral Pokemon Stadium as a Starter stage and have Lylat, Halberd, Skyloft, and Castle Siege (maybe) as Counterpicks. Two Final Destinations aren't different enough to warrant two flat stages being included. However, I've heard many complaints that the original Final Destination background is too distracting, which I can agree with. We can use another Omega Stage Variant with a similar bottom blastzone (32ft) and traction to replace it. So we have these Omega Stages to choose from.

• Luigi's Mansion Ω
  
• Kongo Jungle 64 Ω
  
• Temple Ω
  
• Port Town Aero Dive Ω
• Halberd Ω
• Palutena's Temple Ω
  
• Boxing Ring Ω
  
• 75m Ω
  
• Wrecking Crew Ω
  
• PAC-LAND Ω

Which means we also have the option of including a neutral flat stage with walls. My personal recommendation would be Boxing Ring. But this is entirely opinion based if we'll change this.

Also @ ZADD , Delfino Plaza is definitely banned. Playing on this stage and landing in water with certain characters will answer your question. Getting out of the water with Charizard, Little Mac, Ganon, and other low jump characters is nearly impossible and pretty much guarantees a spike to death. Which is silly. Thats why I recommend Skyloft for a Counterpick because it also has a changing environment that causes players to adapt to their situation, much like Delfino did.

now I just need to get feedback on how large the blastzones for Custom Pokemon Stadium should be? I think horizontally it should be roughly similar to Town and City, but I'm unsure about the Top Blastzone. So I wonder where I should place the stage relative to the center.

 

[ZADD]

Yeah we could make a Universal Neutral Pokemon Stadium as a Starter stage and have Lylat, Halberd, and Skyloft as Counterpicks. Two Final Destinations aren't different enough to warrant two flat stages being included.

Custom stages shouldn't be used in an official ruleset, it just puts new players off, also I really disagree about Omegas. Yoshi's Island plays so much different from regular FD, especially after experimenting with wall jumps/clings. The grass affects rushdown characters in favor of aerial approaches, and gives so many characters new edge-guarding tactics. It is much easier logistically to standardize an Omega stage than a downloadable one, just let people know why it is its own stage. The walls are important when recoveries are nerfed. People don't complain that Battlefield, Dreamland, and Yoshi's story basically have the same platform layout in Melee, the important changes are the ones to the main platform.

The whole point of my post is that a 5 starter stage system is really healthy. If you don't want a flat stage, you better hope you win that Rock, Paper, Scissors! 5 starters (2 flat and 3 with platforms) might seem unorthodox, but it would lead to more exciting matches. Wily's Castle is an amazing stage that truly differs from regular FD, don't just put them together because they both have a flat plane.. I really like the idea of 5 starters and 3 counter-picks (Lylat, Castle Seige, Halberd for CP). Skyloft is impossibly large and filled with walkoffs, I agree that Delfino has to go as well.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

@ DunnoBro

You're the man when it comes to customs. Thanks for settling that dispute <3
Alright, customs are definitely off.

While most of our custom problems are solved, there's a few more that need to be addressed. First, we need Duck Hunt mains to decide whether they'd like Super Duck Jump or the default recovery. DunnoBro apparently prefers the default, but more insight from actual Duck Hunt mains would be great.

Second, Mii Fighters and Palutena. I feel as if, unless the Palutena boards can come up with one specific set to use, she should be restricted to her default moveset. As said earlier, having all the EVO sets and one SLHG set with default moves would probably work best. Mii Fighter, however, is another story. I don't believe the EVO set takes us close to the Mii Fighter limit (100?), so this is a bit harder to decide. Personally, they should be allowed as Mii Fighters are very custom-centric in everything they do. The bigger problem with this is the weight and height classes.

A short/thin Mii Brawler with Helicopter Kick and Flip Jump (don't remember the official name) becomes a pretty big problem. The character has insanely high mobility (possibly the best?), pretty good damage output, quite possibly the best combo game, and good kill power, along with no landing lag. I don't think this applies to Mii Swordfighter or Gunner as much, but it'd be a bit unfair to let them have free reign over their options while Mii Brawler doesn't. I'm not knowledgeable on weight classes with the Mii Fighters at all, so I can't give much insight on this. Restricting weight classes is a bit hard as we don't want to have completely meta-dominating characters, but we don't want to destroy any competitive value they have.

---

Also, in an /r/smashbros discussion on whether Smash 4 should run 2 or 3 stocks, ZeRo said this: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/35m4p4/will_smash_4_ever_switch_to_3_stock/cr5wpxb

While I personally don't care for top player opinions, maybe this will make a couple people understand why a 4-stock ruleset is wanted by some. SLHG with 3 stock doesn't allow for any comebacks, which is a huge problem in this mode as comebacks are a big part of it. Time isn't an issue with 4 stock as we're playing SLHG, where matches go by in less than two minutes. 3 stocks just feels wrong.

 

[WhatsInAUsername]

@ DunnoBro

You're the man when it comes to customs. Thanks for settling that dispute <3
Alright, customs are definitely off.

While most of our custom problems are solved, there's a few more that need to be addressed. First, we need Duck Hunt mains to decide whether they'd like Super Duck Jump or the default recovery. DunnoBro apparently prefers the default, but more insight from actual Duck Hunt mains would be great.

Second, Mii Fighters and Palutena. I feel as if, unless the Palutena boards can come up with one specific set to use, she should be restricted to her default moveset. As said earlier, having all the EVO sets and one SLHG set with default moves would probably work best. Mii Fighter, however, is another story. I don't believe the EVO set takes us close to the Mii Fighter limit (100?), so this is a bit harder to decide. Personally, they should be allowed as Mii Fighters are very custom-centric in everything they do. The bigger problem with this is the weight and height classes.

A short/thin Mii Brawler with Helicopter Kick and Flip Jump (don't remember the official name) becomes a pretty big problem. The character has insanely high mobility (possibly the best?), pretty good damage output, quite possibly the best combo game, and good kill power, along with no landing lag. I don't think this applies to Mii Swordfighter or Gunner as much, but it'd be a bit unfair to let them have free reign over their options while Mii Brawler doesn't. I'm not knowledgeable on weight classes with the Mii Fighters at all, so I can't give much insight on this. Restricting weight classes is a bit hard as we don't want to have completely meta-dominating characters, but we don't want to destroy any competitive value they have.

---

Also, in an /r/smashbros discussion on whether Smash 4 should run 2 or 3 stocks, ZeRo said this: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/35m4p4/will_smash_4_ever_switch_to_3_stock/cr5wpxb

While I personally don't care for top player opinions, maybe this will make a couple people understand why a 4-stock ruleset is wanted by some. SLHG with 3 stock doesn't allow for any comebacks, which is a huge problem in this mode as comebacks are a big part of it. Time isn't an issue with 4 stock as we're playing SLHG, where matches go by in less than two minutes. 3 stocks just feels wrong.

First of all, I'd like to thank you so much for playing me, despite my incredibly heavy salt levels. I will say this though, on the topic of Mii Brawler. If you were to limit the size and weight of Brawler, based on just your preliminary look at him, ( I'm assuming you may have played others than me ) it wouldn't be that good. Finding a "balanced" class would be just full of argumentation, and any weight/height changes, mainly weight, would give Mii Brawler more attack and kill power, and range. Plus, I'm pretty sure that as size increases, special move ranges increase too, meaning he'd get an even better recovery, even though his is not that great. I would try to maybe stay away from regulating anything so far, when there still is some confusion on the rules in their entiriety. Though I also am a huge scrub, so you guys could have read this for nothing XP

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Yeah I guess you're right. No customs until this mode becomes more widely accepted. But I expect more in depth looks at viable customs and sets we can have for different characters when this develops. Wind still banned.

It seems like 5 stage starter is preferred throughout, without custom stages (yet) to be on the stage list. However, I still disagree with the Double FD starter stage, because it's still a completely flat stage whereas all the other stages provide a different layout for different scenarios. If a character matchup has stupid combos on flat stages, there go 2 of your stage bans instead of more thoughtful stage striking. At least with the current starter stage list, every stage provides something different.

In terms of counterpicks, Halberd is here to stay. Delfino gone. Duck Hunt gone. Castle Siege's transitions are too dangerous and second form is still a thing. Skyloft has gotten too negative a reply and I guess it aint necessary. The only thing we can seem to agree with, is that Halberd stays.

So I now we have to decide if we'll have a normal FD, Or a walled FD as a start with Boxing Ring (original blastzones) Or Wily Castle (slightly smaller dropzone)

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Huh? One or the other? If we're choosing that it should be default FD right off the bat. There's more characters that benefit from the regular version than walled. I'm confused on the whole thing, though.

Double FD starter should go, though. Banning FD should just ban any Omega stage. If you're CPing FD, why not just pick the omega you want?

EDIT: Actually, I don't know anything or really care about stages. You guys can decide that. Just don't do anything that'll make TOs jobs harder ;D

 

[DNeon]

Does anybody have an opinion on Wuhu as an option to replace Delfino if Skyloft is considered bad?

Also I really don't mind having 2 different flat stages as starters if they have both traction and straight sides as differences, and/or different blast zones.

 

[Muro]

DHD: if it's even a question of which custom is better, then it's better to avoid making the exception in the first place.

Stages: Maybe the simple solution here is just to treat them all as a single FD? I know there are differences (mainly the walled vs platform) but I don't think it has a big impact.
As Zadd says custom stages shouldn't be a part of the standard ruleset, but we could have a list of "suggested" stages for TOs willing to go the extra mile. @Rynhardt is part of the beta tester team on the custom stage project maybe he has some ideas.

Mii's: So unless there's any logistical problem they should be allowed to use their customs. On the weight, how do other TOs solve this for base sm4sh? Aren't they limited to the guest miis? That seems like the best solution.

Palutena: So since we only have a single slot for her custom moves she's gonna have to choose, or just stick with 1111. Is there really an argument of what are her best customs? Light weight seems like a no brainer, but I don't know much about the other customs. Gonna have to lurk the palutena boards for a bit.

edit: from my 5 minutes of reading it seems she has a lot of useful customs. Gonna have to leave now but I'll look into it more later.

 

[ZADD]

Does anybody have an opinion on Wuhu as an option to replace Delfino if Skyloft is considered bad?

Also I really don't mind having 2 different flat stages as starters if they have both traction and straight sides as differences, and/or different blast zones.

I love Wuhu as a stage, but competitively it doesn't work. All the transformations are mildly abusable, and it would be the hardest of counter-picks almost like Poke-Floats.

I'm glad you agree with 2 flat starters! Anyone who plays Diddy, Sheik, Cpt. Falcon, Fox, Greninja etc. can tell you how much of a difference the walls of Yoshi's Island make. Traction really factors in for horizontal combos, and it makes throw combos harder to pull off than on regular FD. If we could use the Sonic stage on stream, then we could benefit from a Lower Blast Zone, Grass Traction and Walls!

I really like Windy Hill Omega. It is truly a different stage from FD in both functionality and appearance. It would be a shame if copyright were the reason it didn't have any use.

 

[Marachii]

We're talking about tournament rules here. If you're expecting all Wii Us at a tournament to have every custom move in the game without transfers... lol.

Oh, my bad. I was talking about during the planning stages that we're in at this very moment. I don't see this making tournaments any time soon, so we should prolly embrace all the random jank that could come with exploring every possibility.

 

[Muro]

Oh, my bad. I was talking about during the planning stages that we're in at this very moment. I don't see this making tournaments any time soon, so we should prolly embrace all the random jank that could come with exploring every possibility.

How do you explore any possibility without a tournament? There's only so much the few of us can do to test stuff, sooner or later more complete data is gonna be needed. We're trying to settle on a 'core' rule-set so that anybody willing to pick it up doesn't have to think much and can easily implement it. With that said, random jank is what we should try to avoid.

edit: So after playing around with Palutena I think the decision is rather easy to make.

Neutral-B: 2. Explosive flame seems much better than autoreticule since the hitbox is much bigger and doesn't just aim at the spot the opponent was at. Heavenly light is just garbage it seems.
Side-B: 3. Super speed is much more versatile, can be used onstage for offense or offstage for horizontal recovery. The other ones are reflect barrier which isn't too useful, and angelic missile which is a bad skullbash.
Up-B: 1. Warp doesn't lose any vertical height in HG. Also is much more versatile and invencible. Jump glide gives more horizontal recovery but she doesn't need it since side-b already covers that and losing the ability to go down low offstage is not good. Both alternatives to warp are bad in this case because neither of them have much vertical recovery.
Down-B: 2. Lightweight is super good and makes her mobility absurd, also can be refreshed on a platform. Counter and celestial fireworks are really not that useful in comparison.

 

[ZADD]

Here's another combo video bros.. Some are from my vids and some aren't. Enjoy/like/comment!

Also as someone who uses Palutena in SLHG I wholeheartdly see it unfair to give her free range on customs. Just because the customs are unlocked right off the bat doesn't mean she deserves special treatment in using them. She has plenty of tools don't worry. Either no character has special custom sets or everyone does, plain and simple.

 

[Muro]

Here's another combo video bros.. Some are from my vids and some aren't. Enjoy/like/comment!

Also as someone who uses Palutena in SLHG I wholeheartdly see it unfair to give her free range on customs. Just because the customs are unlocked right off the bat doesn't mean she deserves special treatment in using them. She has plenty of tools don't worry. Either no character has special custom sets or everyone does, plain and simple.

Cool vid man. As soon as the current main vid crosses the 1000 view mark I'll switch to this one.

Also, Palutena isn't getting special treatment, if other characters had customs unlocked from the start they'd be able to use them too. Miis for example.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I don't really think Palutena should have customs because Lightweight and Super Speed are super janky and dumb in SLHG, but I don't really care what happens with her. Palutena players don't really exist, even when customs are on, so I don't think she'd ever become a huge problem.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Hmm... Yoshi's island Omega... I'll look into it.

Also regarding customs, I have an idea. In the future we could make the rule that you are only allowed 1 custom move per character. That way you get your choice of improved projectile, recovery, added movement option, or what have you. Without going too overboard in what your options are.

Just trying to provide some options.

 

[DNeon]

@ ZADD

I realised I should have asked you about it first but I just submitted a post about your channel as a place for SLHG content for anyone interested. Sorry if you didn't want it but I enjoy the content and the latest combo video was pretty great so I figured I'd share it.

 

[Muro]

I don't really think Palutena should have customs because Lightweight and Super Speed are super janky and dumb in SLHG, but I don't really care what happens with her. Palutena players don't really exist, even when customs are on, so I don't think she'd ever become a huge problem.

In that case miis get locked into 1111 too. I know on the base game they can use their customs even when they're turned off, but that's an irrelevant distinction to us since by definition we'll always be playing with customs on.

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Yeah @ ZADD , that's a fantastic combo video man. I'll be sure to share it with my community up here.

 

[Muro]

I continue to see posts like these pop up here and there. It seems like there's genuine interest in SLHG, we just need a TO to step his game up and give this a chance as a side event. SLHG is just too captivating to let go.

 

[ZADD]

Here's a different type of video, I think this will appeal to the masses a bit more.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I haven't tried this out yet. I've been stuck on super brawn badge x2 with agility badge.
Is there any difference?

EDIT: I also play tail smash w/ and w/o high gravity.

 

[Muro]

I haven't tried this out yet. I've been stuck on super brawn badge x2 with agility badge.
Is there any difference?

It changes the stats, and that kinda changes everything (damage, speed, knockback).

 

[Marachii]

MAN, Things like this wouldn't be possible without the heavier gravity.

Frame Canceling also gets a huuuuge benifit in this mode. I actually managed to knee >> down throw >> knee someone once.