Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

[ZADD]

Nah Sonic gets the shaft in terms of recovery.. Side-B sends you down too fast.

As a side effect, that makes it a great approach tool. It's weird, Sonic needs to play with objectively more offensive in this mode, how ironic! If you camp the edge, you'll get gimped easy. But if you control your opponent with combos and spacing, you can tear opponents apart. I think Sonic deserves a lot more investigation, hopefully by a Sonic main.

 

[Octavium]

But if you control your opponent with combos and spacing, you can tear opponents apart. I think Sonic deserves a lot more investigation, hopefully by a Sonic main.

I'm also very interested in how Sonic plays in this, while at it, could I also get your input about falco's performance? You probably already did explain it, but I've yet to come across it.

 

[soniczx123]

If any europeans wanna play me this weekend? My NNID is soniczx123. Really excited to try this mode out with Sonic (My main)

 

[Chucknoxus]

If any europeans wanna play me this weekend? My NNID is soniczx123. Really excited to try this mode out with Sonic (My main)

I can play in 1 and a half hours if you'd like to play someone from germany.

 

[soniczx123]

I would love to, but I'm busy with schoolwork until the weekend

 

[Chucknoxus]

I would love to, but I'm busy with schoolwork until the weekend

that's fine just tell me when you can play.

 

[ZADD]

I would love to, but I'm busy with schoolwork until the weekend

Please use the matchmaking thread, it's why it was made.

while at it, could I also get your input about falco's performance? You probably already did explain it, but I've yet to come across it.

Falco is my main in every smash game except 64. So sure, I have a lot to say about him.


Brawl > Sm4sh. Falco lost a lot, and I mean A LOT. I was pretty discouraged when ssb4 released, and my favorite character was deemed one of the worst characters after he had shined (haha) for so long. Every time I played him, his landing lag seemed honestly excessive. It wasn't for balancing purposes, it was to neuter him as a threat. Opponents flew too far, and the lag, like I said, made followups so rare that each one deserved a highlight reel. SLHG does so much for Falco it makes me cry to see my main kick ass once again! Here are a few strengths:

-Offstage laser gimps! They may not be spammable, but they sure stop your opponent's momentum nicely.
-Grab Combos for Days. Low %'s, U-throw to U-air can be chained into a D-air offstage. High %'s D-throw to F-air kills very nicely.
-His beautiful, beautiful B-air! Oh lawdy use this from the ledge to edge-guard and they ain't coming back.
-N-air is so good for neutral game. It's a combo breaker, and less lag allows it to combo into D-smash, U-smash, SH B-air etc...
-His reflector is a lot more useful when opponents are often at eye level with him, and less likely to jump over it.

All in all Falco is a tactical version of Cpt. Falcon. Where Captain excels in rush down, Falco excels at baiting. If you can play well in the neutral game by spacing N-airs and B-airs, they'll have to come to you. Grab them and D-throw, if they miss their tech, be there, ready to punish them with a D-air > U-tilt > U-smash! After that they are in the air, ready to be juggled similar to Captain Falcon and U-air combos, where you take them is up to you. Hope this helps!

Edited: This is an old video, and I already posted it here, but It demonstrates some of the things I'm saying.

 

[Muro]

Please use the matchmaking thread, it's why it was made.

Heh, it hasn't seen much use. How's the chat room on smash ladder going? I haven't had time to stop there. I think unless these kinds of posts start overrunning the thread they're fine.

But I'd also remind everyone to go to the matchup thread and use the "watch thread" feature so whenever somebody posts there to ask for a match, you'll get a notification. That way it's more likely that you'll find a match and it's also more likely that it starts seeing some activity.

 

[WhatsInAUsername]

me too, he can survive a falcon d-tilt at 100% near the ledge (with good DI), so he's not completely hopeless.

btw someone on reddit made some of zadds combos into giffy, really high quality. I can't seem to embed them so I'll link the post.
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/34w5zt/smooth_gravity_slhg_mini_gif_showcase/

I'd make that first falco combo the replacement for the main vid if I could embed it.

Glad someone liked it at least I was bored and procrastinated from studying to make it. He has a ton more cool combos (seriously, his Doc is crazy) that I'd like to maybe make another post on, I don't know yet.... Anything to get some awareness.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I'll give you guys updates as I go, but I'm working on a few things to get this mode more exposure on Smashboards. With permission from Muro, I'll be re-creating this thread with much more information regarding this mode, along with less clutter as this thread was created during the beginning process of rulesets and builds. After that's all finished up, I'll be discussing some currently super-duper secret stuff with other moderators about the mode. Well, it isn't really secret... but you'll find out soon. Hopefully, once this is all running, we can get some SBs News Articles, along with some /r/smashbros exposure.

Hm... yeah, that's all for now. Played some games with ArtfulHobbes last night, Kirby and Zelda are hilariously good here. Meta Knight is lots of fun, too.

 

[Muro]

Glad someone liked it at least I was bored and procrastinated from studying to make it. He has a ton more cool combos (seriously, his Doc is crazy) that I'd like to maybe make another post on, I don't know yet.... Anything to get some awareness.

can you giffy the kill at 1:40 from the falco/yoshi video zadd posted above? That **** was sick!

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Hopefully, once this is all running, we can get some SBs News Articles, along with some /r/smashbros exposure.

Hm... yeah, that's all for now. Played some games with ArtfulHobbes last night, Kirby and Zelda are hilariously good here. Meta Knight is lots of fun, too.

Super secret stuff for more exposure huh? Nice.

And holy crap did you outplay me. Your Kirby wrecked everything I had.

 

[Rynhardt]

Streaming SLHG KotH today, we're live now, everyone is welcome http://twitch.tv/rynnyryn/

 

[Muro]

Streaming SLHG KotH today, we're live now, everyone is welcome http://twitch.tv/rynnyryn/

Good luck guys, wish I could enter but I'll drop in every now and then to take a peek.

 

[ZADD]

He has a ton more cool combos (seriously, his Doc is crazy)

Thank you sir. I played Doc in Melee as a secondary to Falco, and I even put a few hundred matches on For Glory with him.

Also, I can't help but post this video where I body Donutz with Little Mac.... Seriously tho, Mac has so many setups! Be afraid of the Bruiser from the Bronx...

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Okay so I've been looking into it and I think we may have a solution to Sonic's recovery problem. This by no way solves his gimping problem, but it should help overall. Sonic's custom Sid-B 2 Hammer spin dash does an initial jump at the start, that can also be jumped out of by pressing a as long as Sonic has his double jump. Successfully giving Sonic some added Vertical recovery. Now it's still a custom move that requires unlocking, but this should shut some people up saying Sonic is now Bottom tier garbage (which he isn't) However this does remove his homing attack which is his other method of recovery, so choose your mixups wisely.

Also I think I have a task ahead of me. Because the attack and defense values are slightly changed, and the moonlauncher badge adds additional damage to upwards hitting moves, we have some percentages we must calculate. So I think I'll start making a list of all the percentages that change. Be they lower, or higher.

Wish me Luck.

 

[Muro]

Okay so I've been looking into it and I think we may have a solution to Sonic's recovery problem. This by no way solves his gimping problem, but it should help overall. Sonic's custom Sid-B 2 Hammer spin dash does an initial jump at the start, that can also be jumped out of by pressing a as long as Sonic has his double jump. Successfully giving Sonic some added Vertical recovery. Now it's still a custom move that requires unlocking, but this should shut some people up saying Sonic is now Bottom tier garbage (which he isn't) However this does remove his homing attack which is his other method of recovery, so choose your mixups wisely.

Actually I had already posted about that before. But thanks for bringing it up since probably a lot of people didn't see it.

Also I think I have a task ahead of me. Because the attack and defense values are slightly changed, and the moonlauncher badge adds additional damage to upwards hitting moves, we have some percentages we must calculate. So I think I'll start making a list of all the percentages that change. Be they lower, or higher.

Wish me Luck.

That's good man. Don't forget to account for rage and stale moves. That's a massive undertaking though, good luck.

On another note the stream yesterday was pretty cool from what I could see. I was watching the recording now and it's nice to see pikachu dominating hehe

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

That's good man. Don't forget to account for rage and stale moves. That's a massive undertaking though, good luck.

Rage only affects knockback so I don't have to worry about that. Until I get to Lucario and then comes building up percent to test certain moves out... yay.

Also this is also while both characters are wearing their respective equipment pieces, so this date is exclusively for this mode.

Edit: As I'm looking into this. It seems the added defense boost sometimes makes attacks have 1% less than normal. And sometimes not. Very minute percentage differences so I won't look into that. Nothing too big of an issue seeing as moonlauncher is adding a solid 1.3% approx to every upward hitting attack. I'm only looking into what moonlauncher buffs.

Edit 2: And here we have our first list.

NML = No Moon Launcher Affect

[Mario]

Jab: NML
Forward Tilt: NML
Up Tilt: 5.5% - 7%
Down Tilt: 5% (foot) 7% (body) - 6.4% (foot) 9% (body)
Dash Attack: 8% (clean) 6% (late) - 10.2% (clean) 7.5% (late)
Forward Smash: NML
Up Smash: 14%(uncharged) 18% (fully charged) - 18%(uncharged) 25% (fully charged)
Down Smash: NML
Neutral Air: NML
Forward Air: NML
Back Air: NML
Up Air: 7% - 9%
Down Air: 1% (hits1-5) 5% (hit 6) 2% (landing) - 1.5% (hits1-5) 6.5% (hit 6) NML (landing)
Forward Throw: NML
Back Throw: NML
Up Throw: 7% - 9%
Down Throw: 5% - 6.4%
Neutral Special: NML
Side Special: 7% - 9%
Up Special: 5% (hit 1) 1% (hits 2-5) 3% (hit 6) - 6.4% (hit 1) 1% (hits 2-5) 4% (hit 6)
Down Special: NML

And there we go. If anybody wants to look up specific character's, just let me know.

 

[Rynhardt]

I have a playlist up of some highlighted matches from yesterday's stream. If a match you'd like highlighted isn't here, give me a start and end time from yesterday's broadcast and I'll include it.
I'll also be hosting another SLHG stream in a bit, we'll get KotH going if enough people want in.

 

[DNeon]

Also, I can't help but post this video where I body Donutz with Little Mac.... Seriously tho, Mac has so many setups! Be afraid of the Bruiser from the Bronx...

Not sure if I'm reading into this match too much, analysing it wrong or anything, by no means pro so sorry if I'm discrediting you or anything, but damn it looks like Olimalph will have trouble against any speedy character with a decent ground game. Not having any time to pluck pikmin at all is going to kill him, especially since sometimes they'll need to ditch some for the recovery boost with the extra gravity in this mode.

Again not wanting to take anything away from your play or the strength of Lil Mac in this, just commenting on a potential matchup problem that Olimalph players could face.

 

[ZADD]

Not sure if I'm reading into this match too much, analysing it wrong or anything, by no means pro so sorry if I'm discrediting you or anything, but damn it looks like Olimalph will have trouble against any speedy character with a decent ground game. Not having any time to pluck pikmin at all is going to kill him, especially since sometimes they'll need to ditch some for the recovery boost with the extra gravity in this mode.

It's funny you say that, because Donutz and I joked during this match that this was most definitely Olimar's worst matchup. Both characters heavily rely on stage control, and with super armor, Little Mac usually wins that. Donutz did much better in games after this, he adapted pretty wel by doing white pikmin 70% combos off the stage (so scary). I think Olimar is pretty Ok considering he might have the best recovery in SLHG, Donutz has showed me you can use the off stage to strategically snipe pikmin from a distance, assuming you don't do it too often and get punished.

 

[DNeon]

It's funny you say that, because Donutz and I joked during this match that this was most definitely Olimar's worst matchup. Both characters heavily rely on stage control, and with super armor, Little Mac usually wins that. Donutz did much better in games after this, he adapted pretty wel by doing white pikmin 70% combos off the stage (so scary). I think Olimar is pretty Ok considering he might have the best recovery in SLHG, Donutz has showed me you can use the off stage to strategically snipe pikmin from a distance, assuming you don't do it too often and get punished.

I did also see the Doc v Olimar game as well, but put it down to Doc's slow speed being unable to adjust to Olimar's air mobility fast enough. Therefore I put the Mac dominance down to stage control and speed since I hadn't seen an SLHG Olimar matchup that had these aside from the Mac one (how does he do vs Sonic or Falcon?). If it's just the armour that makes or breaks the matchup then I guess that's just 1 tough matchup for Olimar players to deal with.

 

[Muro]

If anybody wants to play a match now or later I'll be available. Just post in the matchup thread, I'll be keeping an eye on it.

 

[Rynhardt]

We're live again at http://twitch.tv/rynnyryn/ if anyone wants to SLHG online. Prestream is up and queues to play are open. We'll have stream currency betting as a way to spice up matches, which can then be used for prize raffles.

 

[Muro]

I just spent a long time playing with someone from my scene (almost no lag btw) so I'm probably done for today. Good luck on stream guys.

 

[Marachii]

Oh, SLHG Mac is pretty fun.

 

[ZADD]

Seriously, who doesn't like Jiggs. zZzZzZzZz

Also, more Marth Badassery. I love Jtip's D-air to Grab that he got 1:08, too bad he sucks tho lol.

 

[Muro]

Also, more Marth Badassery. I love Jtip's D-air to Grab that he got 1:08, too bad he sucks tho lol.

lol, c'mon at least you have offline friends to play SLHG with, you should be happy

I just convinced two players in my scene to try it out, and of course they loved it. Playing with them online has almost no lag, so ssb4 just became my favourite game in the series :D

 

[Zarkdion]

Just played this with two of my friends. Both absolutely loved it, especially the more competitive one. Our matches were beautiful sights to behold. I'd post them, but I don't have a capture card

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

Just played this with two of my friends. Both absolutely loved it, especially the more competitive one. Our matches were beautiful sights to behold. I'd post them, but I don't have a capture card

I have some awesome replays saved myself but I'm in the same boat. I might record them with a still camera and see how they turn out, but we'll have to see.

 

[ZADD]

I have some awesome replays saved myself but I'm in the same boat. I might record them with a still camera and see how they turn out, but we'll have to see.

you could try sending one to me and i can capture it

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

you could try sending one to me and i can capture it

Good idea. Imma send some to you.

Also more Moon Launcher testing has been done. I'm starting to see a pattern with certain percents.

NML = No Moon Launcher Affect

[Luigi]

Jab: 3%, 2%, 5% - 3.8%, 2.5%, NML
Forward Tilt: NML
Up Tilt: 6% - 7.6%
Down Tilt: 8% - 10.2%
Dash Attack: 1% (hits 1-6) 2% (hit 7) - 1.2% (hits 1-7) 2% (hit 7)
Forward Smash: NML
Up Smash: 14% (head) 12% (body) - 18% (head) 15% (body) 25% (fully charged head) 21% (fully
charged body)
Down Smash: 15% (legs) 14% (body) - 18% (legs) 18% (body) 25% (fully charged head) 25% (fully
charged body)
Neutral Air: 12% (clean) 6% (late) - 15.3% (clean) 7.6% (late)
Forward Air: NML
Back Air: NML
Up Air: NML
Down Air: NML
Forward Throw: NML
Back Throw: NML
Up Throw: 8% - 10.2%
Down Throw: 6% - 7.6%
Neutral Special: NML
Side Special: NML
Up Special: 25% (ground sweetspot) 20% (air sweetspot) 1% (sourspot) 32% - (ground sweetspot) 26% (air sweetspot) 1% (sourspot)
Down Special: 1.5% (loop hits) 3% (last hit) - 1.5% (loop hits) 3.8% (last hit)

[Yoshi]

Jab: 3%, 4% - 3.8%, NML
Forward Tilt: 8% (upward), 7% (middle), 8% (downward) - 10.2% (upward), 9% (middle), 10.2%
(downward) Moon Launcher damage is applied when this attack is hit from the centre of Yoshi's tail
Up Tilt: 7% - 9%
Down Tilt: NML
Dash Attack: 9% (clean) 6% (late) - 11.5% (clean) 7.6% (late)
Forward Smash: NML
Up Smash: 14% (clean) 12% (late) - 18% (clean) 15.3% (late)
Down Smash: NML
Neutral Air: NML
Forward Air:NML
Back Air: NML
Up Air: 12% - 15.3%
Down Air: NML
Forward Throw: NML
Back Throw: NML
Up Throw: 5% - 6.4%
Down Throw: 4% - 5%
Neutral Special: NML
Side Special: 4% base - 5% base
Up Special: 1% (contact) 5% (explosion) - 1% (contact) 6.4% (explosion)
Down Special: 4% (hop) 15% (ground drop) 12% (air drop) 4% (stars) - 5% (hop) 18% (ground drop)
15% (air drop) NML (stars)

[Little Mac]

Jab: 2%, 2%, 7%, 1% (loop) 3% (last) - 2.5, 2.5, 9%, 1% (loop) 3.8% (last)
Forward Tilt: NML
Up Tilt: 9% - 11.5%
Down Tilt: 8% - 10.2%
Dash Attack: NML
Forward Smash: 19% (upward) 19% (middle) 22% (downward) - 24.2% (upward) NML (middle) NML
(downward)
Up Smash: 20% (clean) 15% (late) - 25.5% (clean) 18% (late)
Down Smash: NML
Neutral Air: NML
Forward Air: NML
Back Air: NML
Up Air: 5% (hand) 4% (arm) - 6.4 (hand)5% (arm)
Down Air: NML
Forward Throw: 4% (hit 1) 4% (throw) - 5% (hit 1) NML (throw)
Back Throw: 4% (hit 1) 5% (throw) - 5% (hit 1) NML (throw)
Up Throw: 4% (hit 1) 3% (throw) - 5% (hit 1) 3.8% (throw)
Down Throw: 4% (hit 1) 5% (throw) - 5% (hit 1) 6.4% (throw)
Neutral Special: NML (Straight Lunge) 35% (ground KO) 13% (air KO) - 44% (KO Ground) 16.3% (air
KO)
Side Special: NML
Up Special: 1% (loop) 3% (last) - 1% (loop) 3.8% (last)
Down Special: NML

If anybody wants me to test specific characters, just let me know.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

He didn't actually die because DI, lol.

He actually died because DI, lol.

lern2recover

LERN2RECOVER (edit: oh man that walk at the end)

why is Locke so bad at recovering

zolda2stronk

IT ISN'T ZELDA BUT ROBOTS

lol

LOL

Some random gifs~

Played a ton with TRC yesterday, definitely improved after that. He's really, REALLY good. Watching him play on-stream vs playing him in friendlies is ridiculous. He's actually kinda bad when he's playing on-stream. Picked up a lot when playing him, especially when it comes to getting the most reward off hits, along with starting and keeping momentum.

Anyways, we need a definitive ruleset for SLHG. I know discussion has already been done on this, but we need to decide a couple things. Mainly, 3/4 stocks and custom moves.

Personally, I find 4 stocks to be better than 3 stocks. Unless both players are super defensive (which actually isn't recommended because aggro will completely destroy defensive due to momentum drops), timeouts should never happen if the clock is running eight minutes. Having 4 stocks rather than 3 stocks gives more room for come-backs, which is a really big thing here. Most matches I've had with 4 stocks have been 2/3 minutes or under, surprisingly.

In terms of custom moves, I'm going to have to say no. I'm a huge advocater when it comes to custom moves in default Smash 4, but they aren't fit for SLHG. SLHG's second build effectively removes most of the jank from Smash 4, while putting customs back in re-introduces it. Recovery buffs remove any incentive to edgeguard opponents, windboxes completely ruin most characters, and a lot of defensive options are opened back up when they're turned on. As an example, I'll use Zelda. Zelda is a pretty good character in SLHG, she really doesn't need any buffs. When customs are turned on, though, have fun dealing with her when she can cover all landings and approaches with Din's Blaze, edgeguards you by setting it up under the stage and windboxing you with Farore's Squall, gets a hundred shield breaks with Phantom Breaker, and capes you away with Nayru's Rejection.

To give a better example, let's use Bowser. Specifically, Dash Klaw (or whatever the move is called). I wouldn't say that Bowser is amazing in SLHG. Unexplored? Yes. However, his potential doesn't seem as high as most other characters. Most people have been saying that Dash Klaw makes him viable. Well, it does! It makes him stupid and horribly polarizing to over half the cast. Bowser becomes the only character in the game with a wavedash, which is literally a wavedash. The air to ground transition of Dash Klaw has absolutely no lag, so it's unpunishable. He can cover over half the stage while using it, and if he lands if he gets a free U-Throw > F-Air, U-Smash, B-Air and more. Bowser already has great damage output and knockback, why are we giving him the best approach options in the game? The main reason this becomes a problem compared to default Smash 4 is because the higher gravity makes it disgustingly easy to set this move up and spam it.

As far as I'm concerned, the only characters that should be allowed customs are Mega Man and Duck Hunt, only because they no longer have recoveries without them. Along with that, logistically, they're the only characters that will be easy to get customs for. Tornado Hold is unlocked through a custom, while Super Duck Jump is easily obtained through Trophy Rush. Bringing that up, it should be noted that having customs on immediately will turn many TOs away from SLHG, as it'll take even longer than the Custom Moveset Project to set up. You can't use the 3DS transfer method as it doesn't allow edits to the transferred sets. If we turn them on, we'll never grow out and expand into tournies or possible side events.

Anyways... that's all for now. No updates about super secret stuff yet, sadly. Expect some stuff next week, though!

 

[ZADD]

Personally, I find 4 stocks to be better than 3 stocks. Unless both players are super defensive (which actually isn't recommended because aggro will completely destroy defensive due to momentum drops), timeouts should never happen if the clock is running eight minutes. Having 4 stocks rather than 3 stocks gives more room for come-backs, which is a really big thing here. Most matches I've had with 4 stocks have been 2/3 minutes or under, surprisingly.

In terms of custom moves, I'm going to have to say no. I'm a huge advocater when it comes to custom moves in default Smash 4, but they aren't fit for SLHG.

I have personally been pondering 3/4 stocks for a few weeks now, and I must say I agree with 4-stock in the long term. When I watch SLHG matches, of course I see traces of Melee, but more importantly I see a resemblance to combos from Smash 64, unintended and capable of absolute 0-Death destruction. The reason 4 stock is used in Melee, is because the overall comeback potential is very high, and thus it is accounted for. SLHG has plenty of 0-Death comeback potential, especially in the right hands. I know fully well that a true competitive smash player (M2K or Mang0 or ZeRo) could take SLHG into the depths of combo hell. But, at the same time this concept is what's so exciting as viewers. Skill Gaps in are undeniable! In SLHG, the truly better player wins without a doubt! (unlike vanilla Sm4sh sometimes...)

Like I said before, customs are a big NO for me. Although I see no problem with making minor substitutions for viability's sake, I would only consider this when said character is otherwise very weak, and the move doesn't redefine the character's meta. (Wizard Drop Kick Ganon for example.) Dash Claw for Bowser is a good example of a Meta-Defining Custom, or rather a custom that fundamentally changes the strategies/approaches of a character. These moves should most certainly be banned. (Heavy Skull Bash, Dongnado, Kirby Super Hammer, Trip seed etc.), but if say a Dr. Mario player would rather sacrifice his offensive tornado for better recovery custom, I see no problem with that. As long as It makes little effect on the physical confrontations between match-ups.

Edited: I think a logical approach would be to have a list of LEGAL custom moves. This list would of course need to be worked on and discussed over time. But maybe a good start would be to state all of the obvious Meta-Defining Customs, and add them to a growing list of banned moves for the sake of character preservation.

 

[ZADD]

deleted

 

[Aunt Jemima]

It'd be much easier to ban them as a whole. It'd be really irritating to have to unlock certain custom moves per Wii U just to appeal to some random characters, especially when it comes to less popular ones. Allowing some customs to be available and deciding this list overall would ignite a lot of fires, too. Arguments would get carried away really easily as people try to defend why their main should be able to use some custom.

 

[ZADD]

I'd say 95% cast doesn't even need customs. Really though, how can you say No customs, yet advocate that mega-man and DHD get them because, well we say so. The same exact argument for DHD could be used for Ganondorf: to supplement a large lack of recovery... When I say a list of legal customs, I mean a VERY short list, and one that includes Dr. Mario and Link for the same reasons Mega-Man and DHD deserve recovery redemption. They are gimped far too easily to be considered truly balanced! Players of these characters should have some right in how their balance swings. Like I said, If someone wants to sacrifice offense for recovery, that's fine. But picking Custom #3 because it's the best one, and doing that for each slot, should never happen.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Mega Man and Duck Hunt literally don't have recoveries with heavy gravity. Link, Dr. Mario, Samus, etc have very capable recoveries, though. I see where you're coming from, but IMO it doesn't warrant completely separate customs for them.

 

[ZADD]

Mega Man and Duck Hunt literally don't have recoveries with heavy gravity. Link, Dr. Mario, Samus, etc have very capable recoveries, though. I see where you're coming from, but IMO it doesn't warrant completely separate customs for them.

My friend plays Duck Hunt, and He's much better than me. Before I had a capture card he showed me DHD can be totally fine without a custom Up-B, albeit you accept his low tier trollliness. Mega-man is near-bannable with stalling his regular Up-B, so we use his custom to account for the wonkiness of SLHG. This is really my point, although this mode is included within Sm4sh, we cannot take it conservatively or too seriously in these early stages, experimentation needs to happen now while it can. As more and more people experiment, more jankiness will be uncovered. It's much more important that we set overall goals for what we want this mode/community to represent, core tenets that govern all rules that will inevitably change for SLHG. Making a concrete forever ruleset for something as abstract as SLHG doesn't make sense since people don't even play tournaments yet...

 

[ArtfulHobbes]

I have to disagree with all of you on the 4 stock thing. While yes this opens up the potential for characters and combos and what not. The thing is, this isn't Melee. This is still Smash 4 where defensive options are still good. Shields are good, rolling is stupid, and some people are still going to time out as their main strategy.

3 stock is what most people want Vanilla Smash 4 to be. But I still see 2 stock games go into time-out. I think 4 stock would be too big of a jump to this Meta, but 3 stock offers enough space to have your momentum, comebacks, and no bull**** 2 stock rage. And with this, I say 7 minute timer.

Now onto stages. Let's go through the obvious.

Starter
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Town and City
Lylat Cruise

The staple set. Each person gets 2 bans to rule out stages that their particular character would hate going to. 3 stages was dumb, and I'm all for a 5 stage neutral.

Counterpicks (open to change)
Halberd
Castle Seige
Skyloft
All Omega Stages (which can be banned individually or with FD clause)

Stages that were banned
Delfino Plaza: If certain characters with small jumps get in the water, they can literally become trapped. For example Charizard. This stage is gone.
Duck Hunt: Never was a fan. The dog screws things up, and you can camp on that tree all game from characters who can't reach.
Pilotwings: I was considering it, but no. Ness is still far too good. That and the random walls that appear and the tilting is brutal.

Now here is where things get tricky. Halberd is here to stay. It's not as bad as people say it is. But it provides something crucial that SLHG needs for a counterpick, a low ceiling.

Now Castle Seige is debatable. The 1st and 3rd transformations aren't bad. But the 2nd stage has walk offs, and tall platforms that can be camped. However, the stage transforms again after 45 seconds, so it's not indefinite.

Skyloft is something I think we should bring back. With the exclusion of Delfino, we could bring back this moving stage as a CP. It could be used against slower moving characters as they try to keep up from faster moving characters and the transitions. Something to look into.

Like I said, Castle Seige and Skyloft are debatable. But this could provide a slightly bigger stage selection and 2 bans instead of just 1.

Now onto everyones favourite topic.

Customs

I for one say we should allow them right now. Calling something broken like Bowser's clawdash right off the bat is silly. Experimentation for now is key until an official tournament comes along. (I'm working on it) This allows us to find what customs work, what customs don't, and if we could get a list of allowed custom sets at tournament as to not deviate from the norm too much. I've already started a list.

However, Mega Man's Rush is banned and replaced with Tornado Hold. This should be universal. And I think some grinding to get Duck Hunt's jump is needed. Without it he gets gimped even easier. If customs in the future are banned, I think these 2 should still be required.