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Smogon isn't that great

D

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I see a lot of people playing smogon standards, which is fine for the most part, but like all things spoon fed to the masses, you should eventually come to realize that smogon standard sets simply aren't all that good for the most part. I'll go over a few examples here for reference, but mainly it's time people started to realize what a good Pokemon really is, rather than seeing them as chess pieces with specific purposes.

Pokemon are, primarily, strategic devices to defeat the opponent. At least for competitive battling purposes. Pokemon can have varied stats, aand barring nature a stat can span up to 94 points from it's opposite (31 in IVs, and 252/4 or 63 for EVs). These points are used either to achieve a specific speed or HP, and after that are used as part of the damage formula, sometimes specific but usually not. A great example is my personal fav Umbreon, who needs to be decently fast to use his best move, Taunt.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21302

However, some sets suggested are simply not good overall. A good example of this is the new common specsmence.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20467
I notice many people use specsmence over other varients when it should be seen as more of a gimmick set, like tyraniboah or special metagross. Let's review. Salamence has a higher physical attack, better physical movepool, has dragondance as an option, and the majority of pokes have higher special defense than defense. By choosing specsmence, the player leaves themselves venerable to getting walled more easily, as salamence suddenly has less diversity and a lower attacking stat than his potential.

I have a few other examples I'll present as well, namely pokemon I play. This example is Garchomp.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20484

Garchomp, against more talented players, is simply not a good choice for swords dance. Garchomp has an immense physical movepool, double stab, and immunity to sandstream. Chomp is much better off with a choice item or focus sash, as a switch in sandstream won't kill him at 1 HP like it would other pokes.

Another pokemon I like is Registeel. The standard for registeel seems to involve inaccurate electric moves on his base 50 spe att stat, even though registeel has better typing, defenses, and ability for tanking than deoxys lg.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22674

I don't feel I need to go in depth as to why this is outright awful.

Steps to making solid, competitive pokemon:

1. Take smogon standards with caution. Some are indeed very good, and I like my CB metagross set just fine. Some on the other hand, are just mediocre or outright bad. Don't be fooled by the bad ones.

2. Plan what you want. Know minimally what stats you need to achieve. Expect opponents to use max stats. Outside of Speed, IVs usually take a back seat to natures and abilities, and really aren't that important. Adamant/Jolly/Modest/Timid are not the only natures. Experiment, make exactly what you need.

3. Use your stats correctly. Stats are given as diversity. Do not go by generic sets as the best, but merely as a reference. For example, I took the standard latios set and created what I feel is the best starter in the game:

Latios @ Soul Dew
Modest
252 spe att/ 252 spe def/ 4 HP

by dropping the speed EVs or HP EVs I effective created the hardest hitting latios, which is absolutely necessary to OHKO groudon/kyogre/mewtwo and the like, but I also found a special wall that outclasses Blissey, which far outweighs the speed difference. This guy eats mewtwo ice beams and laughs about it. walls calm mind kyogre, etc.

Stats have many various roles, whether to reinforce a strength (jolteon speed EVs) or to cover a weakness (Blissey defense EVs) and should be used accordingly.

4. Weigh strengths carefully. A pokemon should do what it's supposed to well. Taunt Umbreon should not use sub 170 speed. Trick room/ gyroball bronzong should have a -speed nature and a 0 speed IV. Endeavor smeargle can have 0 in all defenses. My smeargle is, for example:

Smeargle @ Salac berry
Hasty
255 att/ 255 speed
0 IVs in HP, def, spe def, spe att, 31 att and speed
Endure
Endeavor
Spore
Extremespeed

On the other side, feel free to go 252s on attackers if you need it. Jumpluff should be max speed and speed natured. Etc. I scarfed my jolly garchomp for example, 499 speed is nice. Most would think that scarf would cover for a speed nature and play adamant, but losing to another garchomp for that reason alone really sucks.

5. Use favorites. Pokemon are really diverse, and many can be used effectively, not just standards. Build them, adapt to fight better pokes. Play who you like, make them win by strategy, and let your numbers and preparation do the supporting.

CRACKERS
Ratatta @ focus sash
guts
brave
IVs are all 0 except 31 attack
255 attack/ ~
Endeavor
Quick Attack
Pursuit
Sleep talk
 

CHAOSDRAGON88

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This is brilliant posting, i want to get into competitive BATTLING but it just seems so complicated. I am going to take a half hour hiatus. See ya and thanks.
 

Onvoloper

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Nice post, I like how you said it had good points, shows you are actually looking into it and not just going along with what some random just said once or twice. xD
 

CHAOSDRAGON88

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I feel as if there is no way for me to keep count of the ev and iv points because they are not openly displayed. Two questions though, does the PKRS affect this growth and would pokemon geneology be considered for breeding and raising these pokemon? The descendants of my pokemon always seem weaker, why? Thanks in advance.
 

Onvoloper

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Pokerus doubles the Ev's you gain, so yeh it affects EV growth. Don't think IV's grow at all, they are set from when you catch/hatch the Pokemon (I think).
With your descendants thing it's cuz they are level 1 xD...nah Iono really, just posting off what I've been told recently.
Are IV's that important? They are too much for me, EV, IV, nature and all that...too much, I'll drop IV's if it won't reduce my team too much...would it?
 

CHAOSDRAGON88

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My blaziken's(My first ruby pokemon, Oldest too, i still use him, he strong like bull) son was leveled to the max and he doesnt match up to his father who has one me many a battle. Kind of like the breeding pokemon cheated with another blaziken.
 

ss118

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This sounds familiar... :p
but you are right on the most part, but I think your wrong about Specsmence being a gimmick set: it's overly powerful STAB Draco Meteor coupled with only 1 type resisting it makes it hard to wall without Cresselia, Blissey, or Empoleon.
But meh :/
Otherwise, I would agree, and if we're picking "favorites", i am determined to base my next team around the awesome AZUMARILL!!!!!
unfortunately, I'm stuck planning for the next tournament in GA im heading to, and Digimon.
PLEASE DON'T KILL ME!!!
 

Wii4Mii 99

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Another pokemon I like is Registeel. The standard for registeel seems to involve inaccurate electric moves on his base 50 spe att stat, even though registeel has better typing, defenses, and ability for tanking than deoxys lg.
I'd like to point out that Registeel's base Special Attack stat is 75, not 50.

I agree with mostly everything you said. I've used the Smogon sets, too, and most of them look good on paper, while a few of those good-looking sets actually work. Some movesets leave mii puzzled, though.

Until wii meet again,
Wii4Mii 99
 

Tyrannotaur

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I really like to use Smogon as a starting point. Mainly to see if I'm going in the right direction. It's a good starting point I think. I do the same thing with Serebii's Pokémon of the Week.
I don't follow it exactly. I despise how all those sites put leftovers on everything. I do like to play by an Item clause. I also dislike Choice Items. I'm sure they are helpful. I just dislike the idea of being locked into a move and not being able to change it on the fly. I don't mind switching when I have to. It's a big part of the game. It just seems that with a choice Item I do alot of unnecessary switching just to be able to use a move I could have use without the choice item.

I also like to use my favorites. Noctowl may be low on the "tiers", but I'll still use him because I like him. If I use a pokémon it's not because it is high on the tiers. It's really because it either fits my strategy or I really like it. If that choice causes me to loose, then so be it.

Also Heatran, Cresselia, The Regis..etc May not be Uber. But they are still legendary. I dislike using them on Wifi. Even if they are legal. I do use Mew. I like Mew. I am in the process of training a Alakazam to replace him though.
 

mood4food77

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good post

but in reality, the poke depends on the person using it

my bronzong takes people by surprise
 

Hippochinfat

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Haha You Freaking Noob. Saying Specsmence Is Inferior To The Other Sets And That Garchomp Shouldn't Sd!!! I Was Ip Banned From Smogon's Forums And I'll Still Admit They Are By The Far The Smartest Pokemon Community Out There. You Are Such A Freaking Noob Omg Wow.
 

Hippochinfat

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Physical Salamence's Have Alot More Counters Then Specsmence You Freaking Idiot. Specsmence Only Has 2 Sure Fire Counters!
 

Hippochinfat

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Why The Hell Would You Give Chomp A Focus Sash Man Wow You Fail He Has Base 108/95/80 And Thats Good. Hell With 80 Evs In Hp He Can Survive An Unstab'd Neutral Natured Base 100 Sp. Attack Or Lower Ice Beam. Giving A Pokemon That Isn't Fragile A Focus Sash Is Dumb
 

Hippochinfat

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hahaha omg dude you fail IVS ARE VERY VERY IMPORTANT AND LOOK AT THAT HORRIBLE RATTATA SET YOU POSTED.

CRACKERS
Ratatta @ focus sash
guts
brave
IVs are all 0 except 31 attack
255 attack/ ~
Endeavor
Quick Attack
Pursuit
Sleep talk

IT'S SUCH FAIL. SWITCHING, WEATHER, QUICK ATTACKS, GHOSTS AND A TON OF OTHER STUFF RUIN THAT SET. SERIOUSLY JUST SWITCHING RUINS THAT SET. AND DON'T SAY "OH BUT HE HAS A VERY WEAK PURSUIT HE CAN USE!!!!!"
 

Hippochinfat

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Besides Dude Regice Has Base 75 Not Base 50 Sp. Attack And Zap Cannon Have A High Chance Of Boosting That Mediocre Attack, But Thats Not The Point How Can You Not Tell That Those Special Electric Moves Are Used For Skarm? You So Fail Wow.


Omg Crap I Did Like 5 Posts In A Row And I Forgot You Can't Double Post On These Boards Wow Sorry Im Gonna Stop Now But Wow You Suck
 

Hippochinfat

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I really like to use Smogon as a starting point. Mainly to see if I'm going in the right direction. It's a good starting point I think. I do the same thing with Serebii's Pokémon of the Week.
I don't follow it exactly. I despise how all those sites put leftovers on everything. I do like to play by an Item clause. I also dislike Choice Items. I'm sure they are helpful. I just dislike the idea of being locked into a move and not being able to change it on the fly. I don't mind switching when I have to. It's a big part of the game. It just seems that with a choice Item I do alot of unnecessary switching just to be able to use a move I could have use without the choice item.

I also like to use my favorites. Noctowl may be low on the "tiers", but I'll still use him because I like him. If I use a pokémon it's not because it is high on the tiers. It's really because it either fits my strategy or I really like it. If that choice causes me to loose, then so be it.

Also Heatran, Cresselia, The Regis..etc May not be Uber. But they are still legendary. I dislike using them on Wifi. Even if they are legal. I do use Mew. I like Mew. I am in the process of training a Alakazam to replace him though.


banning legendaries that aren't uber is extremely stupid.

You go bann awful pokemon like aritcuno, regigas and entei but allow people to use huge threats like ttar, heracross, gyrados, azelf, salamence ect. Besides mew actually is uber jeez man unlike the ones i just mentioned
 

Onvoloper

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Hippo...can you prehaps edit your post next time? Double posts really annoy me...but you just went overboard.
Edit- Look at the bottom of any one of your posts, in the middle, you should see a button labelled "Edit." Try using it
Wait, you siad you'd stop double posting...on your second last post :/.
 

CHAOSDRAGON88

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hippochinfat should be banned after knowing that what he did was wrong and continuing to do so. I would say that he was purposely trying to close this thread. @Moderators please dont close this thread.
 

Hippochinfat

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Hippo...can you prehaps edit your post next time? Double posts really annoy me...but you just went overboard.
Edit- Look at the bottom of any one of your posts, in the middle, you should see a button labelled "Edit." Try using it
Wait, you siad you'd stop double posting...on your second last post :/.
Yea, I'm just not used to the no double post here, I'm really sorry for doing it.
 

Problem2

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Smogon is a good place to look for some ideas, but you can't compose a good team out of premade sets. It takes manipulation for the pokemon to fit together as a team imo, and normally for me that means having about 4 or 5 tweaked standards and an odd ball of a poke that does something unique and/or covers a weakness for me. Never doubt UU or BL pokemon. They can do fine in OU just as OUs do okay in Uber. They rarely will be the main threat of your team, but they can always support.

Very nice post umbreonmew. I think this is something the community needs.
 

Tyrannotaur

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banning legendaries that aren't uber is extremely stupid.

You go bann awful pokemon like aritcuno, regigas and entei but allow people to use huge threats like ttar, heracross, gyrados, azelf, salamence ect. Besides mew actually is uber jeez man unlike the ones i just mentioned
Which is why I'm replacing Mew..

I never said to ban them. I just don't like them being used. My personal opinion. I don't see how it's stupid.
 

mood4food77

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legendaries, not ubers

some legendaries are OU/BL

and one non legendary is uber


and only some OU do good in ubers (Blissey, forretress, heatran)
 

JesiahTEG

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Besides Dude Regice Has Base 75 Not Base 50 Sp. Attack And Zap Cannon Have A High Chance Of Boosting That Mediocre Attack, But Thats Not The Point How Can You Not Tell That Those Special Electric Moves Are Used For Skarm? You So Fail Wow.


Omg Crap I Did Like 5 Posts In A Row And I Forgot You Can't Double Post On These Boards Wow Sorry Im Gonna Stop Now But Wow You Suck
A few things. First off, Mow is a genius at this game. He knows more than you, me, and probably everyone in this thread. He taught me a lot, and I would own you, which in turn means Mow would own you. You give Chomp a Focus Sash so he can kill things that kill him with ice beam, and since he's ground type, he won't die to sandstream, making him a good candidate for focus sash. His rattata is mainly a joke Pokemon, but if you look closely enough you'll see that it's actually pretty effective. Anyways, who are you? Why do you suck so much? Why would I kill you so horribly in Pokemon? Why is Mow superior to you?

Also, I like Smogon sets, because it makes it easier for smart players to win. This is because, 97% of players use Smogon sets, which makes it very easy for me to counter them. If I see a Heracross, not only do I know which of the 3-4 sets it can be, but I am also positive that it's a CB set, because that's what's going around in the metagame. Because so many ppl use Smogon sets, I basically know their Pokemon before they use them, giving me and any other smart player, like Mow a huge advantage, which is precisely why I almost never lose anymore. 57-2 streak, yayuhhhhzzzz.
 

CHAOSDRAGON88

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@UMBREONMOW; From your initial post i thought you were brilliant and your apprentice has more than confirmed my suspicion. I ask of you to let me be your next apprentice, your skill would be of great use in terms of teaching pokemon. Do you accept, i would love to learn the things you know.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
haha I think that's the first time anyone has ever told me I suck at pokemon.

The admins at smogon are really good players, justin chaos obi and them. I'm not attacking them personally, as they clearly know what they're talking about. I'm just pointing out that some "standard" sets just outright suck.

If you're really worried about salamence having counters, play mixmence, only Cressy beats him. Most people play some other variant as he can win a game by himself easier in lategame.

edit: Jesse LOL 57-2 WTF XD

You are too amazing for the English language to describe hahaha.
 

Hippochinfat

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A few things. First off, Mow is a genius at this game. He knows more than you, me, and probably everyone in this thread. He taught me a lot, and I would own you, which in turn means Mow would own you. You give Chomp a Focus Sash so he can kill things that kill him with ice beam, and since he's ground type, he won't die to sandstream, making him a good candidate for focus sash. His rattata is mainly a joke Pokemon, but if you look closely enough you'll see that it's actually pretty effective. Anyways, who are you? Why do you suck so much? Why would I kill you so horribly in Pokemon? Why is Mow superior to you?

Also, I like Smogon sets, because it makes it easier for smart players to win. This is because, 97% of players use Smogon sets, which makes it very easy for me to counter them. If I see a Heracross, not only do I know which of the 3-4 sets it can be, but I am also positive that it's a CB set, because that's what's going around in the metagame. Because so many ppl use Smogon sets, I basically know their Pokemon before they use them, giving me and any other smart player, like Mow a huge advantage, which is precisely why I almost never lose anymore. 57-2 streak, yayuhhhhzzzz.
You suck dude. Seriously. Pokemon who aren't fragile shouldn't be given focus sash's. I'd beat you so easily. Same with that mo dude.

Specsmence> physical mence.


BTW almost everyone who uses hera uses choice scarf not choice band.
 

Wii4Mii 99

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Haha You Freaking Noob. Saying Specsmence Is Inferior To The Other Sets And That Garchomp Shouldn't Sd!!! I Was Ip Banned From Smogon's Forums And I'll Still Admit They Are By The Far The Smartest Pokemon Community Out There. You Are Such A Freaking Noob Omg Wow.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20467
I notice many people use specsmence over other varients when it should be seen as more of a gimmick set, like tyraniboah or special metagross. Let's review. Salamence has a higher physical attack, better physical movepool, has dragondance as an option, and the majority of pokes have higher special defense than defense. By choosing specsmence, the player leaves themselves venerable to getting walled more easily, as salamence suddenly has less diversity and a lower attacking stat than his potential.
Physical Salamence's Have Alot More Counters Then Specsmence You Freaking Idiot. Specsmence Only Has 2 Sure Fire Counters!
Salamence @ Item
Adamant
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Fang
- Earthquake

Although this might not be the exact set, this thing is hard to counter once it gets 2+ DDs. Prediction is the key to taking down SpecsMence. The many Steels resist Draco Meteor, while Flamethrower and Hydro Pump is resisted by the typical Water. There is also Blissey and Cresselia.


Why The Hell Would You Give Chomp A Focus Sash Man Wow You Fail He Has Base 108/95/80 And Thats Good. Hell With 80 Evs In Hp He Can Survive An Unstab'd Neutral Natured Base 100 Sp. Attack Or Lower Ice Beam. Giving A Pokemon That Isn't Fragile A Focus Sash Is Dumb
The Focus Sash is to insure that Garchomp gets off at least one Swords Dance to allow sweeping. And because he's immune to Sandstorm, he'll only die from priority moves or faster Pokemon. Just because a Pokemon isn't fragile, doesn't mean you shouldn't put a FS on it.

hahaha omg dude you fail IVS ARE VERY VERY IMPORTANT AND LOOK AT THAT HORRIBLE RATTATA SET YOU POSTED.

CRACKERS
Ratatta @ focus sash
guts
brave
IVs are all 0 except 31 attack
255 attack/ ~
Endeavor
Quick Attack
Pursuit
Sleep talk

IT'S SUCH FAIL. SWITCHING, WEATHER, QUICK ATTACKS, GHOSTS AND A TON OF OTHER STUFF RUIN THAT SET. SERIOUSLY JUST SWITCHING RUINS THAT SET. AND DON'T SAY "OH BUT HE HAS A VERY WEAK PURSUIT HE CAN USE!!!!!"
OMG EMPOLEON, BLISSEY, CRESSELIA, FASTER POKEMON RUIN SPECSMENCE. Besides, F.E.A.R. is a gimmicky, suicide set.

Focus Sash
Endeavor
Quick Attack
Ratata


Besides Dude Registeel Has Base 75 Not Base 50 Sp. Attack And Zap Cannon Have A High Chance Of Boosting That Mediocre Attack, But Thats Not The Point How Can You Not Tell That Those Special Electric Moves Are Used For Skarm? You So Fail Wow.

Charge Beam boosts Special ATtack, not Zap Cannon.

Omg Crap I Did Like 5 Posts In A Row And I Forgot You Can't Double Post On These Boards Wow Sorry Im Gonna Stop Now But Wow You Suck

It's hard to imagine you got banned from Smogon...
Until wii meet again,
Wii4Mii 99
 

Coen

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Nice read UmbreonMow, I agree with you for the most part. It's good to see someone not being afraid to say some Smogon sets do in fact suck balls.

Hippochinfat: You're banned now. I don't understand why you are doing this.

And no I won't close this thread. I couldn't even if I wanted to.
 

fluffy

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People who visit smogon are generally better than people who don't. I think that's reasonable. eh?
 

9Kplus1

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*Ahem* Okay, I'm late, so, I should just give my own opinon about this-

I agree with you Mow, Smogon's suggestions aren't that reliable. I generally use the best EV Spread/Moveset that I can think of, hence, my Marowak-
Marowak/Kenpachi @Thick Club
Impish Nature
EVs:252attk/192hp/64def
Ability: Rock Head

Fire Punch
Thunder Punch
Earthquake
Substitute

Now, I've seen a Marowak survive my Adamant, EV'd Weavile's Ice Punch and EQ it into oblivion, yet, I've seen MANY people on Smogon suggest this-

Marowak @Thick Club
Adamant Nature
EVs:252attk/252spd/4hp
Ability: Rock Head

Bonemerang
Stone Edge
Fire Punch
Focus Punch

Notice a difference? Everyone there thinks that Wak is supposed to sweep in Trick Rooms and regular battles, but, I've developed a way to turn Wak into my physical Tank. Another example is the Exploding SP.Sweepers, c'mon, why the heck would you waste a good sweeper just to get rid of Blissey? Unless your team is all spPokes, then, Explosion is just a waste, not to mention the fact that most of them run -attk natures. Now, if I try to create a moveset like, a SDing Armaldo, everyone'll say "That'll never work, give it speed EVs and Rock Polish", that's just dumb. In my opinion, Smogon focuses on the OU parts of a poke that are too obvious not to be able to be predicted.

Smogon is a great place to get advice if you're a rookie, but, if you already have knowledge of the game and you have a, oh what's that word...A BRAIN, then, it's not best to take Smogon's advice.

Here's a 4th set that I was suggested by on pokecommunity that would be better corrected on Smogon-

Sceptile @Leftovers
Modest Nature
EVs:252spattk/252spd/4hp

Thunder Punch
Dragon Claw
Leaf Blade
Seismic Toss

And a set that Smogon will doubt, yet, it works-

Marowak @Thick Club
Impish Nature
EVs:252attk/192hp/64def

EQ
Fire Punch
T-Punch
Subtitute

See my point? Smogon basicly uses sets and pokes that have been tested out already, I haven't seen a set there that wasn't OU already.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
coen, this might not be my arena but I don't see much reason for the ban aside from the 5x posts, but it seems that was more of an accident? idk, guess thats why I'm not a moderator lol.

Pokemon who aren't fragile shouldn't be given focus sash's.
No, pokemon that die in 1 hit should use focus sash. Since garchomp draws ice attacks more than anything, I sashed him. Then, since his spe def doesn't even matter, I gave him naughty/naive nature so his fire attack is more powerful.

I like smogon, and the staff is pretty good. Most people on smogon outside of their staff/inner circle of friends aren't very good.
 

mood4food77

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no one thought CMzong would work

until i beat them in battle

hence why they're getting increasingly popular

i tried the standard set and it didn't work for me

i do the CM set, and it friggen *****


also people doubt my timid specsasnow
 

Smasher89

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The sets they have as "standard" is sets that often use they best stats and movepool to take care of as much things as possible/support good with more.

I can see the reason why specsmence and tyraniboah is listed.
Specsmence is built to take care of the usual inswitching counters for a physical version, just to realize they switch in on a KOing Draco meteor, since the counter might had got some extra EV's in def not prepared for a Special sweeper.

The set works great for that purpose (actually I haven´t tried it but it seems nice)
And keeps your opponent to have to predict if they should switch in a blissey or a skarmory (just an example), wrong pokemon and it might get KOd, and it deals alot of damage otherwise)
 

9Kplus1

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The sets they have as "standard" are sets that often used in the best stats and movepool to take care of as much things as possible/support good with more.

Actually, their sets are predicted easily since everyone uses them now.

I can see the reason why specsmence and tyraniboah is listed.
Specsmence is built to take care of the usual inswitching counters for a physical version, just to realize they switch in on a KOing Draco meteor, since the counter might had got some extra EV's in def not prepared for a Special sweeper.
The set works great for that purpose (actually I haven´t tried it but it seems nice)
And keeps your opponent to have to predict if they should switch in a blissey or a skarmory (just an example), wrong pokemon and it might get KOd, and it deals alot of damage otherwise)
If a Mence switches in on a Skarmory and switches out on Blissey, what does that mean?
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Chill

Red
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Aw, I missed the fun. Smogon is a great starting piont but it's true the sets themselves become OU. I like to check smogon just to see what everyone else is currently using. It's a good way to avoid becoming predictable.
 
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