Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[JayZee1700]

I've explained Corrin so many times I'm getting sick of doing so.

1) Only one good player who actually travels, said player does... well but not amazingly well. They ain't hitting top 8 in majors. Cosmos, while a good player... is borderline irrelevant because they can't travel. They're stuck in one area that doesn't get much in the way of majors.

2) Their results have been slowly declining. Its not a straight decline, its like a stock market graph decline. Lots of ups and downs but when you map the overall trend its downwards. Corrin ain't much of a pocket character anymore. People like ESAM who had tinkered around with them as a secondary have dropped them from such a roll.

3) They have never ever ever ever ever ever ever reached their "top 15 potential" and yet people keep raving about them and they really need to stop doing that. End of the day, their lack of mobility holds them back. No I'm not talking about the nerf. Their overall mobility is sub-part. That is why Ryuga hasn't been able to really dominate in an international: mobility matters a lot and in the end of the day, Corrin does not do well against keep away. Side be has good range yes, but its a) predictable because its Corrin's only option against that b) kinda narrow by the tip. Its the wrong type of move for stopping keep away.

You want more details than that, go dig up some of my other posts here or in the Tier List topic. End of the day, Corrin has never proved themselves to be high tier, just overhyped fluff. Peach is in the same boat to a slightly lessor extent: just one person who really matters. Too many cries of "b-b-but potential!" even though the character is irrelevant as a secondary and you have like... 1-2 in the whole entire world you have to worry about. That is not a metagame threat. That ain't a high tier.

I didn't say that should move up to high tier, but okay. I also said that I don't see moving up, but if anyone moved up from the tier it would be them.

I still don't see why you think more than half of the Upper-Mid Tier belongs in Mid Tier. I think that's the elephant in the room here, and honestly we haven't even finished Mid Tier yet, so it's not like our decision is final.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I planned on updating earlier in the day but I've been sick and been away from home at the doctors etc, so I'm gonna update now...

UPDATING...

 

[Bowserboy3]

UPDATED!

Luigi had far and away the most up votes; 3 quarters of the votes were Luigi + votes, so he moved up.

Robin and Olimar VERY close this time. One change in their positions could have changed how they placed.

Everything else was pretty normal.

Now onto the next tier - Mid Tier (+):

Mid Tier (+): ,,,,,,,,

Spoiler: Rules

With the naming phase out of the way, we can focus on each individual tier. In these rounds, we go one tier at a time and settle on a proper order for the characters.

What's more, during these rounds, you can even vote to move ONE character Up or Down a tier (new tiers will not be created at the top or the bottom).

With Mid Tier voted and locked, we can move onto the Mid Tier (+):

Mid Tier (+): ,,,,,,,,

For your information, is at the end of this tier, but characters that move a tier from the last round cannot be voted on. As such, please vote on the selection above (essentially Mid + Tier minus Luigi).

Your vote can be these characters in whatever order you like. For example, you can have Peach at the top, the 2nd place, the last place, wherever you like. Just be sure not to add or remove characters in this tier.

Here's an example vote

Mid Tier (+): , ,,,,,,,


Here, this voter wants to see Lucario go up a tier, so Lucario is placed at the top of the tier, and is given a -+ vote. The opposite is true for giving a - vote; if the voter wanted to vote Lucario down for example, he would be placed at the bottom and would be given a - vote. However, remember you can only + or - vote one character.

The character with the a noticeable amount of + or - votes will move up or down to the next tier. However, they cannot be voted upon in the next round, and will be left in a set of brackets to symbolise this: ( ).

Spoiler: Current List as of 4.19

Top Tier:,,,,,,,,,
High Tier:,,,,,,,
Mid Tier (+):,,,,,,,,,()
Mid Tier [LOCKED]:,,,,,,,
Mid Tier (-) [LOCKED]:,,,,,,
Low Tier [LOCKED]:,,,,/,,,
Bottom Tier [LOCKED]:,,,,,

My Vote:
Mid Tier (+): ,,,,,,,,

+1

 

[TDK]

-

Give me one good reason why these two should stay in this tier. Don't say Earth, because it's only Earth getting any consistent results and sometimes he'll just drop sets and go out at 25th/33rd too. He's also never top 8'ed an international tournament. If anything, Earth's skill as a player has far exceeded what Pit as a character is actually able to do, meaning Pit is holding him back from getting those top 8s. His neutral is decent, but it's nowhere near the best in the game, which is a fatal flaw that he, being a neutral-based character with a neutral that isn't good enough to keep up with other characters. His advantage state is hot garbage, possessing an okay but still below average juggle game and nothing else going for him. He's also one of the worst killers in the game, regularly letting opponents live past 130 before he can find a forward throw near the ledge to maybe do it. Pit as a character is average to bad in all stages of the game. Nothing good or overwhelming about him. If you're playing Pit and you come up against a player who's as good as you are in the neutral with a character with a better advantage state, you can kiss that set goodbye.

Everything I said here applies to Dark Pit too except he's slightly better at killing because his Side-B is wicked strong.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

+1
Edited
Alright, even though I haven't seen the video, I'll help with the Lucina push

 

[jespoke]

+

I think the first 3 are pretty solidly ahead of the rest of this tier. I understand that Corrin is controversial, but that doesn't matter here. I would sooner vote Lucina up than Pits down, but won't do so.

Edit: Made the jump to +

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

No upvotes or downvotes, as I would ideally swap three of these characters with three of the tier below. (I'll add an upvote as a countervote to Lucas or the Pits later if need be.)
EDIT: +1 If he moves down, Ness and the Pits should, too. But since only one character can move, he shouldn't go down.
Don't understand why people are putting at the top. I admit she's good for mostly the same reasons as Marth, but the three characters I put above her have more consistent and good results than her.


EDIT 1: Moved Lucas to the bottom.

EDIT 2: +1 Alright, I've been convinced.

EDIT 3: Moved Lucario to the second spot mostly because of Tsu.

 

[Bigbomb2]

()

I can see all these guys here. They all got some really good players, even if great Lucas and Pit players are more rare

 

[Zerp]

With Linguini:()
Without Green Mario:

 

[Wintermelon43]

- He has an awful matchup spread with tons of bad matchups, including a nearly unwinnable matchup. His matchups have been pretty bad recently too, even from FOW and Shaky.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

-

()

 

[Frihetsanka]

+

Edit: Moved Peach up one spot.

 

[DMWN]

+

Though he lacks the neutral representative of a top character, he's fundamentally an amazing character. He can safely edgeguard, boasts an amazing combo game and deadly 50/50s, and has options to get out of shield easily. He can never be a top character simply because of his linear approach (along with Lucas), but his strengths still far outweigh his weaknesses, even with a recovery as exploitable as his (though he can mix that up as well).

Also, some of the high tiers above him have done less in terms of results and are overall less powerful characters, but that's neither here nor there.

On the issue of representation, it's worth mentioning that when his players attend events, they generally do as well as you'd expect from high-tier characters.

 

[JayZee1700]

I don't feel like typing my reasoning again so ill just put it here:

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

 

[Frihetsanka]

Samuelwisebaggins How is Corrin worse than all those characters? Have you seen her MU chart? Or any top Corrins playing her?

Don't understand why people are putting at the top. I admit she's good for mostly the same reasons as Marth, but the three characters I put above her have more consistent and good results than her.

Because she's really similar to Marth, who is top of high tier/low top tier. If Marth hadn't existed then I bet her results would've been a lot better.

 

[Tizio Random]

Mid Tier (+):

+

 

[Nah]

how does one even place volatility incarnate () on a tier list

Samuelwisebaggins How is Corrin worse than all those characters? Have you seen her MU chart? Or any top Corrins playing her?

Is there even any real consensus on what Corrin's MU spread is though? "Have you seen top Corrin's play her?" is a poor argument as well since top level players can make just about any character look good.

I will never understand why people still continue to not look at the whole picture for anything and not find legitimate/non-fallacy filled supporting evidence when making arguments and instead choose to use incomplete pictures and poor reasoning.



Also I think on the previous page someone was wondering about Corrin kill throws. Corrin has a stock cap throw in Uthrow that kills midweights, without rage, in the lower 150s. Dthrow can also be a stock cap throw, but it's not great at that since proper DI kinda makes it a lot less effective. Might as well just not stale your Uthrow and use that instead, they're both vertically killing throws.

 

[Frihetsanka]

how does one even place volatility incarnate () on a tier list

Mainly based on MU chart, I'd say.

Is there even any real consensus on what Corrin's MU spread is though?

There's pretty good consensus that Corrin loses 3-8 MUs or so, even a bunch, and wins the rest. Overall she wins significantly more than she loses, though most of the relevant wins are just 55-45.

People in this thread seem to underrate a lot of characters. At this point the next 4BR list might end up more accurate than this list (though we'll see). Luigi, Donkey Kong, Bowser, Corrin, Olimar, and Lucina are some examples (in my opinion).

Corrin has a stock cap throw in Uthrow that kills midweights, without rage, in the lower 150s. Dthrow can also be a stock cap throw, but it's not great at that since proper DI kinda makes it a lot less effective. Might as well just not stale your Uthrow and use that instead, they're both vertically killing throws.

Yeah, up-throw is the relevant one, down-throw is mostly if you messed up (or if you thought they wouldn't DI correctly against the first up-throw but they did). Still, overall having a solid up-throw that kills is really nice.

 

[lbrasz44]

-

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

Samuelwisebaggins How is Corrin worse than all those characters? Have you seen her MU chart? Or any top Corrins playing her?

MU charts prove little IMO. There is no basis for claiming she only lose 3-8 matchups. Her results certainly don't point to anything above high -mid.

 

[Frihetsanka]

MU charts prove little IMO. There is no basis for claiming she only lose 3-8 matchups. Her results certainly don't point to anything above high -mid.

I would say results prove even less. They are too reliant on the available players and how much they travel. MU charts, on the other hand, show how strong the character actually is.

Which MUs does she lose then? Sheik, Diddy Kong, Fox, and Bayonetta are a given. Zero Suit Samus, Marth, Cloud, and Mewtwo are "maybe". Who else (it's not just a rhetoric question, I honestly would like to know)? Also, those are probably just 45-55 losses anyway. Not a huge deal.

How are her results worse than Dark Pit though? If you look at the current Tournament Placing Database, she scores higher than characters like Pikachu, Toon Link, Pit, Greninja, and Lucas. With that being said, I don't really trust raw results, since by that logic Duck Hunt should be high tier.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

-

 

[MarioManTAW]

Oddly enough, I used to think was just a superior version of ... before I played the character. I had seen that Lucas' recovery was far better than Ness' (which was Ness' main weakness) and assumed that that made him better. After purchasing Lucas, I completely understand why he is not as good as Ness. He struggles a lot harder to kill, with PK Thunder 2 no longer a viable KO move. Perhaps his best kill move is his very laggy (but also powerful and long-range) up-smash. Also, his combos are significantly harder to perform than Ness'.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Oddly enough, I used to think was just a superior version of ... before I played the character.

You forgot to place Ness though.

 

[Nah]

Mainly based on MU chart, I'd say.

Yes, but how does one even do that for such volatile characters?

There's pretty good consensus that Corrin loses 3-8 MUs or so, even a bunch, and wins the rest. Overall she wins significantly more than she loses, though most of the relevant wins are just 55-45.

When and where was this consensus reached though? What was the reasoning behind this being Corrin's MU spread?

....what exactly does it even look like, like gimme a picture of it

People in this thread seem to underrate a lot of characters. At this point the next 4BR list might end up more accurate than this list (though we'll see). Luigi, Donkey Kong, Bowser, Corrin, Olimar, and Lucina are some examples (in my opinion).

What I'm trying to get at is that if you or anyone else wants to sway people's opinions, y'all need to explain WHY so-and-so is underrated/overrated or something is wrong or whatever. Nobody has any reason to believe anybody else's claim until they can prove it. And like I said, with a real argument. This, for example:

Many players such as Cosmos and Ryuga have proved that this character has what it takes to compete against the top tiers. has many reliable kill setups and a good combo game to lead into those setups. I may be wrong on this, but I think is one of a few characters that have 2 kill throws. is so much better than the Mid Tiers, and I think they have a chance in Lower High tier.

is not a real argument. People seem to think that this sort of thing is convincing enough and it's like....no fam, you're missing a lot here.

Nevermind that I doubt that people in general really know how to fight the character.


....I suppose that since I'm here, I should throw in a vote, yeah? Here:

,,,,,/,,
+

yes I deliberately left out Lucario

 

[Bowserboy3]

,,,,,/,
+

yes I deliberately left out Lucario

Please don't. It makes it an utter ball ache to work around otherwise.

Please edit him into your vote to make it easier.

I don't want to have to remove a vote because it's not complete.

 

[Nah]

Please don't. It makes it an utter ball ache to work around otherwise.

Please edit him into your vote to make it easier.

I don't want to have to remove a vote because it's not complete.

ok, fixed now

 

[Frihetsanka]

Yes, but how does one even do that for such volatile characters

I'm not sure.

When and where was this consensus reached though? What was the reasoning behind this being Corrin's MU spread?

Lots of various discussion on the Corrin Discord. If you think Corrin loses any more MUs, then feel free to bring them up, I'd like to know.

....what exactly does it even look like, like gimme a picture of it

Corrin loses (probaby 45:55) against Fox, Shiek, Diddy Kong, and Bayonetta almost certainly. She might lose (45:55) against Cloud, Marth, Zero Suit Samus, and/or Mewtwo. She goes even with like 10-14 characters and wins the rest (mostly 55:45, the only relevant character she wins 60:40 against is Ness).

Meanwhile, Ness loses like around 20 matchups, some 40:60 (like Sheik, Rosalina & Luma, and Corrin). How is he better than Corrin? Or how is Captain Falcon better than Corrin when he loses almost as many MUs as Ness (though not as badly)? Corrin (and Lucina) stands out in this tier, with significantly fewer bad MUs than the rest.

@Nintendofreak You forgot to place Peach.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

@Nintendofreak You forgot to place Peach.

LOL, I think we might have to get him a reference sheet.

 

[MarioManTAW]

You forgot to place Ness though.

Whoops, I missed that he was in this tier. Edited.

 

[Nah]

Meanwhile, Ness loses like around 20 matchups, some 40:60 (like Sheik, Rosalina & Luma, and Corrin). How is he better than Corrin? Or how is Captain Falcon better than Corrin when he loses almost as many MUs as Ness (though not as badly)? Corrin (and Lucina) stands out in this tier, with significantly fewer bad MUs than the rest.

Ness, Lucas, and Corrin were kind of hard for me to order. They could be re-arranged in any order and it'd be fine really. It's not gonna make a big difference in this thread really.

Even if Corrin was to be placed in the 3rd slot, Falcon gets the nod ahead from me over Corrin though because her advantage and disadvantage are not significantly better than Falcon's, and he at least has good mobility, which is kind of a big deal in this game

 

[Frihetsanka]

Even if Corrin was to be placed in the 3rd slot, Falcon gets the nod ahead from me over Corrin though because her advantage and disadvantage are not significantly better than Falcon's, and he at least has good mobility, which is kind of a big deal in this game

I used to place Captain Falcon higher than Corrin as well (in high tier). The thing is, his MU chart is significantly worse, with 2-3 times as many bad MUs. This includes losing to every top tier except Rosalina (even), while Corrin goes even with many top tiers and potentially beats Mario and Rosalina. Additionally, Corrin either wins or goes even with every high tier (except potentially Marth, if you consider him a high tier, though it might be even). Corrin also beats some high tiers, while Captain Falcon only beats mid-tiers and low tiers (and bottom tiers, of course).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If Corrin actually did that well, he'd be winning internationals. Ryuga has more than enough skill, he was able to put up a very good fight against Zero's Diddy with Ike. Which is a horrible MU. Nearly beat Ally as well IIRC. Other players would pick Corrin up as a main as well.

The fact it hasn't happen, says that Corrin's MU chart is highly inflated. Which it is.

 

[Frihetsanka]

The fact it hasn't happen, says that Corrin's MU chart is highly inflated. Which it is.

Give us some examples, then. Aside from the MUs I've mentioned, which MUs does she lose?

I say the main reason Corrin isn't doing better (and let's face it, most high tier characters aren't doing all that much in general, how much did Mega Man do before Kameme?) is because Cosmos prioritizes school over Smash (which is not really a bad priority). If he could travel he'd likely be a top 50 player and he'd put Corrin in high tier. The fact that some topl players who have played against Cosmos (like ANTi and ESAM) think that Corrin is top tier says a lot about Cosmos skill and/or Corrin's strength.

I should mention that I think Corrin would be either at the bottom or just above Greninja in high tier. She's not strongly a high tier character, but her MU chart is significantly better than the high-mid tiers, and more on par with high tier. Her results are also better than many high tiers.

 

[Nah]

Give us some examples, then. Aside from the MUs I've mentioned, which MUs does she lose?

I'm not Nid but....

Out of the characters you previously mentioned, I would think that Corrin loses a little harder than 45:55 to , and aren't really "might"s but more certain. Marth is kinda iffy though and could be even. But besides those, one could entertain the possibility that Corrin goes less than even with .

But it's not so much MUs vs specific characters for me though as it is that I have a hard time believing that a character that can neither approach nor force people to approach is high tier. What does she do against an opponent that refuses to approach/plays keepaway? I (and Nid) have been saying this for months now but the community at large still seems to me to refuse to play that way even though it's the definitely the better option against certain characters.

 

[Bowserboy3]

But it's not so much MUs vs specific characters for me though as it is that I have a hard time believing that a character that can neither approach nor force people to approach is high tier.

I've kept out of this for a while but now I feel it's time to at least leave a comment.

Corrin certainly does have approach options, so lets not talk out of our asses. Corrin alone has a quick Nair with high range and low landing lag which allows him to approach and pressure a shield. Fair can also do much the same thing but has a generous auto-cancel frame. Lets not also forget that Corrin has Dragon Lunge which itself works as an approach option; when Corrin pins into the ground at mid range, the opponent is forced to make a decision, be it shield, retreat, jump, attack etc, of which Corrin can react to. This allows Corrin to control the pace of the game to some extent at a certain range. The meme of "if you can't punish Pin, you lose the MU" isn't very much of a meme to be honest. This move hands down destroys otherwise good MU's for other characters.

Corrin has at his disposal aerials that are safe on block. This alone tells you he has approach options.

Also remember Corrin has a projectile. It's not fantastic but it's a projectile nonetheless. Opponents cannot just camp away in conjunction with a huge disjoint that is safe and a projectile.

And just like all other sword users in the game, when Corrin has a lead, he doesn't need to approach. He can utilise the range of his sword to punish approaches by the opponent. Having a lead in this game is important. Having a sword on top of that is usually a big deal, and why characters like Cloud and Marth can be so hard to get the lead back from.

Characters that cannot approach nor force people to approach are usually bottom tier, ie: Ganondorf. This is not Corrin.

 

[Nah]

I've kept out of this for a while but now I feel it's time to at least leave a comment.

Corrin certainly does have approach options, so lets not talk out of our *****. Corrin alone has a quick Nair with high range and low landing lag which allows him to approach and pressure a shield. Fair can also do much the same thing but has a generous auto-cancel frame. Lets not also forget that Corrin has Dragon Lunge which itself works as an approach option; when Corrin pins into the ground at mid range, the opponent is forced to make a decision, be it shield, retreat, jump, attack etc, of which Corrin can react to. This allows Corrin to control the pace of the game to some extent at a certain range. The meme of "if you can't punish Pin, you lose the MU" isn't very much of a meme to be honest. This move hands down destroys otherwise good MU's for other characters.

Corrin has at his disposal aerials that are safe on block. This alone tells you he has approach options.

Also remember Corrin has a projectile. It's not fantastic but it's a projectile nonetheless. Opponents cannot just camp away in conjunction with a huge disjoint that is safe and a projectile.

And just like all other sword users in the game, when Corrin has a lead, he doesn't need to approach. He can utilise the range of his sword to punish approaches by the opponent. Having a lead in this game is important. Having a sword on top of that is usually a big deal, and why characters like Cloud and Marth can be so hard to get the lead back from.

Characters that cannot approach nor force people to approach are usually bottom tier, ie: Ganondorf. This is not Corrin.

If the character has aerials that are safe on shield, but poor mobility, why shield that? Why not just move away instead?

Pinning the ground does not force anyone to make a decision. If Corrin pins the ground but not the opposing character, all you need to do is hold shield. The Corrin player either then kicks forward, which the majority of the cast can punish, kick away, gaining Corrin nothing at best and losing stage control/giving the opponent breathing room at worst, or does nothing.

The projectile from DFS shouldn't stop anyone from camping or playing runaway, it's slow and has low priority.

 

[Bowserboy3]

If the character has aerials that are safe on shield, but poor mobility, why shield that? Why not just move away instead?

Pinning the ground does not force anyone to make a decision. If Corrin pins the ground but not the opposing character, all you need to do is hold shield. The Corrin player either then kicks forward, which the majority of the cast can punish, kick away, gaining Corrin nothing at best and losing stage control/giving the opponent breathing room at worst, or does nothing.

What you are forgetting is a vital aspect about Corrin's character; range.

Corrin might have "poor" mobility; in reality, it's merely below average, but the fact he has a high ranged moveset thanks to his sword makes up for this. Characters with poor mobility who actually suffer in a way you are implying are characters like Zelda and Falco for example. Their poor mobility and lack of good range make it harder for them to approach, because like you say opponents can just move away.

If you think about it, Corrin might be slower, but he's covering almost 3x as much range as those characters with his hitboxes. His poor mobility is offset by his sword.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If just pure range was enough to make up for bad mobility, Ike would be doing a whole lot better seeing as his base mobility is slightly better than Corrin's and his range (outside of Pin) is equal or marginally better than Corrin's.

Range only helps so much. The only thing that significantly helps a below average mobility is an excellent projectile game. Toon Link is a decent example (his max air speed is even slower than Corrin's, but his max run speed is better than Ike's so, not perfect example but decent), if the opponent decides to play keep away from him he barely has to track them down at all. His wall of projectiles are either going to hit and force the opponent to eventually lose the lead, or force them to shield and allow him to catch up.

Corrin can't do that. What is he going to do against a needle spamming Sheik that goes all in on the needle camping and running away? That doesn't mean literally only use needles but that means keeping as much distance as possible and fitting in needle spam as much as possible. I'm sorry but no, Corrin is not going even with that unless the Sheik was silly enough to allow Smashville or Lylat to be picked. Any other stage and Corrin is going to be struggling to catch her and do significant damage to her. Stray hits? Sure. But Corrin is going to have to play very unsafe to just try to catch up because the Pin won't work, its too obvious. And because Corrin is having to play unsafe, the Sheik can suddenly decide to turn around and go in for one combo and most likely catch the Corrin off guard.

I don't think Corrin gets blown up by the top/high tiers or anything like that. But a large number of those so called "even" MUs are actually "slight disdavantages". Just nobody wants to admit it.