• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Smash4 has not done anything to deserve EVO

Status
Not open for further replies.

Accelerator

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Messages
102
Location
Michigan
Over the past few months, the topic of whether Smash4 or Melee should be in EVO has been discussed at length.

Let me say right off the bat that it should be understood that Smash4 will most likely be featured at EVO as the main event, and not Melee. The obvious reasons being that Nintendo was a sponsor of EVO last year, and will probably be a sponsor in 2015. Money is now involved, and Nintendo will be looking to benefit. Getting their new release some big press only makes sense.

With that being said, the point of this thread is not to debate which game is going to be featured as the main event, as it's pretty obvious. The reason I created this thread, is to get some insight into the rationale of people rallying for Smash4s inclusion.

The main argument I see from most advocates for it's inclusion, is that it's new. As far as the Smash community is concerned, this doesn't mean anything. As a primarily grassroots scene, we have gone without the support of the developers. This meant instead of the bulk of players going to where the money is being thrown at, as seen from the FGC, we stayed with the games we enjoyed the most.

Another reason that is used a lot is that Melee already has a thriving community, and that Smash4 needs this for the growth of it's scene. Melee players who disagree are described as selfish, and supporting "Meleetism." These types of statements are completely ironic, because the reason Smash got back into EVO is primarily because of MELEE players. How is it greed to want to keep something you earned, but not greed to want to take something you didn't put any effort into?

Yes, there were players of other Smash games that gave their support, but the bulk of the effort came from the Melee community. Essentially, Smash4 players want to hijack the popularity and efforts of the Melee community to ride their way into a huge event the Melee community put a lot of effort getting into. Melee had to demonstrate itself as a competitive game for years before it got in, why should Smash4 be any different?

People will then say that the different Smash communities are intertwined, and that when one community profits, we all profit. This is not true. Smash may be a franchise, but each one are entirely different from each other. For the previous statement to ring true, that would mean loads of players are cross gaming in tournaments, and this isn't true.Any popularity that Smash4 will gain from EVO 2015 will support the Smash4 community, not the Melee community.

Is there any solid rationale to include Smash4 in EVO 2015 that can be offered?
 

byebye

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 16, 2013
Messages
171
NNID
BigByeBee
Smash or no Smash, usually a new, popular fighting game gets to be included in EVO. That's it.
Smash4 is new, and it is popular.

If you're concerned about Smash4 taking the slot of Melee in EVO, that is EVO's problem.
I say let them both in.

There are a number of old and not popular games in EVO main event that should be booted out in place of Smash4. But Smash4 and Melee should definitely be in.
 

Snowfin

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
25
The solution is pretty simple... leave the decission open till 3-4 months before EVO takes place... and then look at the numbers melee tournaments are posting, and the numbers sm4sh tournaments are posting. Also look at the # of viewers a melee major gets during top 8, and the # of viewers a sm4sh "major" (can u even speak of a major with such a new game???) gets during top 8.

Whoever has more, deserves the spot at EVO... pretty simple.

or give both Melee and Sm4sh a spot at EVO, that would be the most amazing thing actually
 

TreK

Is "that guy"
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
Messages
2,960
Location
France
Another reason that is used a lot is that Melee already has a thriving community, and that Smash4 needs this for the growth of it's scene. Melee players who disagree are described as selfish, and supporting "Meleetism." These types of statements are completely ironic, because the reason Smash got back into EVO is primarily because of MELEE players. How is it greed to want to keep something you earned, but not greed to want to take something you didn't put any effort into?
The Melee community didn't earn its place at EVO. The Smash community earned it.

Make sure you remember that next time you need our help.
 

Accelerator

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Messages
102
Location
Michigan
The Melee community didn't earn its place at EVO. The Smash community earned it.

Make sure you remember that next time you need our help.
Yes, other communities contributed, but the efforts were by and large from the Melee community. Brawl accumulated thousands for their own position as well, so it's not like it was a joint effort from the get go.
 

NotLiquid

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,346
Yes, other communities contributed, but the efforts were by and large from the Melee community. Brawl accumulated thousands for their own position as well, so it's not like it was a joint effort from the get go.
You really don't have any proof to substantiate your former claim.

Without taking anything away from Melee itself as a competitive game, if you have to put something like that on a drive where multiple communities are more than eager to step up to the plate if the other is too busy having slapstick fights about which version is best represented, it is obvious even for Brawl players that their game was essentially a necessary sacrifice if the series in general was to have a spot, which is in and of itself the bigger victory rather than just Melee. The fact that the Smash community could have a universal ceasefire for that split moment in time is nothing short of a miracle.
 
Last edited:

S2

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Messages
1,503
Location
Socal 805 (aka Hyrule)
Another reason that is used a lot is that Melee already has a thriving community, and that Smash4 needs this for the growth of it's scene. Melee players who disagree are described as selfish, and supporting "Meleetism." These types of statements are completely ironic, because the reason Smash got back into EVO is primarily because of MELEE players. How is it greed to want to keep something you earned, but not greed to want to take something you didn't put any effort into?

Yes, there were players of other Smash games that gave their support, but the bulk of the effort came from the Melee community.
I think your underlined for emphasis argument about Melee players shows a lot of ignorance. You're assuming that everyone who worked to, advocated for, and watched Melee's inclusion in past EVO events is completely dedicated to furthering only the Melee scene and not the Smash series as a whole. That's simply not true. Trivializing the efforts of those who worked hard for Melee and also want to see the new iteration grow competitively is being greedy.
 

Accelerator

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Messages
102
Location
Michigan
I think your underlined for emphasis argument about Melee players shows a lot of ignorance. You're assuming that everyone who worked to, advocated for, and watched Melee's inclusion in past EVO events is completely dedicated to furthering only the Melee scene and not the Smash series as a whole. That's simply not true. Trivializing the efforts of those who worked hard for Melee and also want to see the new iteration grow competitively is being greedy.
Your argument also shows a lot of ignorance, because you have no way of quantifying the amount of players that statement is true for. I also think the assumption that people will move from a game that they've been playing for years to a game is that objectively not as capable of competitive play is a bigger one then my statement.

What we do know is that Smash4 is out, and people are still playing and watching Melee by the spades.
 

KunchieMunchie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 2, 2014
Messages
29
The Melee community didn't earn its place at EVO. The Smash community earned it.

Make sure you remember that next time you need our help.
Doesn't the "Smash Community" include Melee, too? Not just Smash 4?
 
Last edited:

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
13,704
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
TheReflexWonder
3DS FC
2492-4449-2771
Doesn't the "Smash Community" include Melee, too? Not just Smash 4?
It does, but the logic is that there was a big push for it from people who wanted to promote Smash as a whole, not just Melee. Unfortunately, most of the Melee dudes don't feel the same way.
 

TreK

Is "that guy"
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
Messages
2,960
Location
France
The fundraiser happened right after APEX 2013, and even though for the first time in APEX history Brawl has inferior attendance to the previous year (210->269->400->338), it was still bigger than Melee (52-220->318->336), and Salem's amazing performance made damn sure that Brawl wouldn't lose steam the next year.
When we helped Melee, we were still the most popular game, the bigger community. It was our weakest year in 5 years, it was Melee's strongest year in 6 years, but we were still bigger. We helped because we figured, Melee is better for spectators who don't know anything about Smash, and the Melee guys needed the help anyway, while we didn't.

So even though nobody will ever have the final word as to who donated the most, if it's a big d**k contest, we win, you prick.
Tbh I donated because I knew by experience that people like you would pop up, and I wanted to have the right to shut them up by being the bigger man.
Thanks for proving me right, I guess ?
 

KuroganeHammer

It's ya boy
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Messages
15,985
Location
Australia
NNID
Aerodrome
I remember someone making a post on Reddit that it was only Melee that donated for the drive to get Melee into Evo.

Oh it was a glorious day that I could respond that I donated (a bit*) of money toward the drive despite not playing Melee competitively.

I feel that because Smash 4 is a new game it should get the chance to be featured at Evo. I don't really have any other reason than that.

(*probably significantly more than 99% of people)
 

Logsmash

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Messages
482
Location
Manitoba, Canada
NNID
LogMash
I feel like the OP answered his own question. With Nintendo as a sponsor that sensibly wants to promote their newest game, it stands to reason that Smash4 will be the featured EVO smash event due to the extra money it will bring in from Nintendo.

Consider this: while the competitive Smash community has indeed thrived as a "grassroots scene" for years, the desire for official support and sponsorship by Nintendo has existed for almost as long. Therefore, if we have finally reached a point where Nintendo is willing to throw some money our way, should we really reject that simply because the support isn't for Melee? Shouldn't we give Smash4 a chance if it means cementing a much-wanted financial support? Sure, you can say "well we got along just fine for years without this help", but are you really so proud and committed to the one Smash game that you aren't willing to compromise in any capacity? Ideally, Melee and Smash4 can co-exist at EVO and other big tournaments, with the sponsorship of Nintendo for at least one of them if not both.

Your point about the Smash community not caring whether a game is new or not, although somewhat valid, appears misguided. Nintendo doesn't care about what the Smash community wants, Nintendo cares about making money for Nintendo. That's what a business is supposed to do. If you have a large audience and you can show either a) a game that isn't making you money anymore, or b) a game that just came out, which one would be the best decision from a business perspective? THAT is the reason Smash4 will likely be included over Melee. And like you said, "it's new". Professional players want to get paid to play video games, so they will naturally flock to whatever game will get them the most money.

As has been stated already, SMASH is in EVO because of the SMASH community. Melee just happens to be seen as the most "competitively viable" title of the franchise, therefore it was chosen as the representative smash game. If Brawl had been the "superior" game it would be Brawl vs Smash4, same goes for Smash64.

Finally, it is absolutely true that when one Smash community profits, all the Smash communities profit. If Smash4 attracts new players who then want to master Melee or P:M, then Smash4 has contributed directly to the expansion of the other Smash games' playerbases. Even in the event that this does not occur, considering all Smash games collectively make up the Smash community, when one Smash community profits the collective Smash community also profits.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Oh Boy,Oh Boy,Oh Boy! I can not WAIT for the flame wars that's going to happen on this thread.:joyful:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Yodude57

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 5, 2014
Messages
169
NNID
Yodude57
3DS FC
3282-2513-0940
It's not like melee isn't already in plenty of tournaments of its own... Let smash 4 have a chance. I mean seriously melee just had the big house 4 a few days ago.
 
Last edited:

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
13,704
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
TheReflexWonder
3DS FC
2492-4449-2771
New and popular game needs and deserves its chance on the big stage. See: every other popular fighter.
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
13,704
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
TheReflexWonder
3DS FC
2492-4449-2771
Including melee.
It's not new, though; it's the oldest game on the main stage so far. I don't care if it's gotten a resurgence; new tech doesn't suddenly make for an entirely new game.

There's nothing wrong with being an old game, and I'm not saying that it doesn't deserve a spot, as well, but virtually everything else got a shot (even though they refused to go with the tournament standard when they did Brawl in 2008), and it's definitely going to pull in a huge amount of numbers. That in and of itself means that Smash 4 deserves a real chance on the biggest stage.
 
Last edited:

Yodude57

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 5, 2014
Messages
169
NNID
Yodude57
3DS FC
3282-2513-0940
It's not new, though; it's the oldest game on the main stage so far. I don't care if it's gotten a resurgence; new tech doesn't suddenly make for an entirely new game.

There's nothing wrong with being an old game, and I'm not saying that it doesn't deserve a spot, as well, but virtually everything else got a shot (even though they refused to go with the tournament standard when they did Brawl in 2008), and it's definitely going to pull in a huge amount of numbers. That in and of itself means that Smash 4 deserves a real chance on the biggest stage.
I mean when melee was new it had to be pushed by the community that originally only played 64 and without he support from 64 fans melee would not have gotten so big.
 

The Prince: SDJ

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 8, 2014
Messages
175
IF smash 4 wants to be the god of the smash games, it has to prove it and earn it. Until then, no EVO for smash 4
 

Accelerator

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Messages
102
Location
Michigan
New and popular game needs and deserves its chance on the big stage. See: every other popular fighter.
You can't really compare those games to Smash. For most of those games, developers have a hand in the competitive scene doing things like contributing to pots, providing setups etc.

If the Smash community wasn't primarily a grassroots scene, and Nintendo was involved at the beginning, our scenario might very well be playing out like most FGC games do. We would move from the old game to the new one, because that is where the money and the majority of tournaments are at.

Besides, it doesn't deserve anything. It deserves a chance to showcase it's potential to be featured at such a large stage, but that's it.
 

Yodude57

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 5, 2014
Messages
169
NNID
Yodude57
3DS FC
3282-2513-0940
You can't really compare those games to Smash. For most of those games, developers have a hand in the competitive scene doing things like contributing to pots, providing setups etc.

If the Smash community wasn't primarily a grassroots scene, and Nintendo was involved at the beginning, our scenario might very well be playing out like most FGC games do. We would move from the old game to the new one, because that is where the money and the majority of tournaments are at.

Besides, it doesn't deserve anything. It deserves a chance to showcase it's potential to be featured at such a large stage, but that's it.
While melee elitists continue to say, "smash 4 doesn't deserve anything" I and many others in the smash community are willing to at least try out the new game and see how it holds out and if smash 4 is at Evo than we can get a better perspective of how this game is. Not like your precious melee will suffer from not being at one tournament not even considering the fact that you just had one a few days ago and it was huge (aka the big house 4)
 

Accelerator

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 7, 2011
Messages
102
Location
Michigan
While melee elitists continue to say, "smash 4 doesn't deserve anything" I and many others in the smash community are willing to at least try out the new game and see how it holds out and if smash 4 is at Evo than we can get a better perspective of how this game is. Not like your precious melee will suffer from not being at one tournament not even considering the fact that you just had one a few days ago and it was huge (aka the big house 4)
That's what they said about Brawl back in 2008. :joyful::awesome::joyful:
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
13,704
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
TheReflexWonder
3DS FC
2492-4449-2771
Last I checked, Nintendo was an official sponsor at EVO this past year. What do you think that means for next year? :p
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
"sigh" Sometimes I feel like the smash community should just be called the melee community ---__---
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
13,704
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
TheReflexWonder
3DS FC
2492-4449-2771
Yeah, but I was explaining the fresh, new, popular game thing as being rationale. People want to play it because it's new and exciting. I know that's why I want to.
 

Yodude57

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 5, 2014
Messages
169
NNID
Yodude57
3DS FC
3282-2513-0940
"sigh" Sometimes I feel like the smash community should just be called the melee community ---__---
Ikr. But, as we know, it's just the vocal minority :p
 
Last edited:

KunchieMunchie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 2, 2014
Messages
29
I'm gonna say it now: Smash 4 is just too campy, slow, and boring. To watch at least.
 
Last edited:

SSS

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 31, 2012
Messages
858
Location
Glendale, AZ (rip Irvine, CA)
I'm having fun, guys. Are you having fun? I'm having fun. This thread is awesome and productive! Opinions are being shared! Minds are being changed! This is going to definitely affect how EVO chooses to run their gigantic tournament, this one, VERY important thread.
 

NotLiquid

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,346
The scenario is the same.
It's not.

Brawl failed at EVO 2008 because the organizers decided to completely ignore the standardized rulesets and purposefully perpetuated the game in a form less competitive. If that never happened, the worst thing you could have said about Brawl in light of it entering the scene is that it's a wholly different game than what Melee was. Instead the game turned into a laughing stock and left a sour taste in everyone's mouth.

People need to cut out with the hindsight bias. TOs will not repeat those mistakes twice going into Smash 4.
 
Last edited:

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
13,704
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
TheReflexWonder
3DS FC
2492-4449-2771
I'm gonna say it now: Smash 4 is just too campy, slow, and boring. To watch at least.
It's done a good job of toning down the defensive skew that Brawl had, I feel. As people get more comfortable with the offensive options and baits, it will fall into place well. Watching baddies doesn't really give a good view of how it will go.

Also, campy, slow, and boring didn't stop Injustice from being featured for the last two years.
 
Last edited:

Logsmash

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Messages
482
Location
Manitoba, Canada
NNID
LogMash
I'm having fun, guys. Are you having fun? I'm having fun. This thread is awesome and productive! Opinions are being shared! Minds are being changed! This is going to definitely affect how EVO chooses to run their gigantic tournament, this one, VERY important thread.
Did you read the OP? The point of this thread isn't to change EVO's mind, it's to get some perspective on why people support Smash4 getting a chance at EVO.

That question has been answered several times already. It's new and fresh, it's more likely that Nintendo would sponsor Smash4 than Melee, and finally:
It deserves a chance to showcase it's potential to be featured at such a large stage...
My question to OP is how do you propose we do this? Or rather, what is a more direct way to find out how people respond to Smash4 being at a big tournament than putting Smash4 in a big tournament and seeing what happens? Just because other Smash games had to go the grassroots way and build their cases over time doesn't mean every new Smash game should have to do that as well.

The battle is over, we (the Smash community) won! Smash is in big tournaments now! The things you're saying are analogous to saying that every new Street Fighter that comes out shouldn't be allowed on a big stage until it can prove that it's better than the previous iteration. That's not how the world works, and honestly it makes your mindset about this whole thing seem petulant, childish, and butthurt.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom