Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

Gosh it's a good thing Sakurai watched the Lucario movie!

Yeah, it's not like Lucario's starring role wasn't known about by the public months in advance and Lucario was "going to be central to any of conversations in Pokemon going forward" due to being from a future release or anything.

 

[LIQUID12A]

Pokemon again, hooray...

Decidueye is in some weird middle ground regarding popularity. It's not a Greninja by any means since it's not being plastered everywhere and being an attention hog, and GF isn't really pushing it has hard as it did dat ninja boi. On the other hand, it's not really a bandwagon character in the sense that it seems to have some legitimate popularity on it's own merits and relevance that it seems will continue for a while. Whether that accurately translates to Smash is anybody's guess.

Mimikyu's a more straightforward example of being pushed by GF, what with it's unique song, totem mon status and affiliation with Team Rocket for now(exposure). Again, popularity on the mon's own merits applies, perhaps even moreso than the grass owl, but whether it's potentially hindered by design difficulties is up in the air and not something I can accurately comment on.

Tapu Koko's a mon that overshadows both regarding prominence. (I'm about to use some overly specific observations, so sorry if you don't follow) This is only in the game itself, though. Going through the plots of the main games, it's not unfair to say Tapu Koko has more exposure in S/M than most legendaries, minor(think trios like the Swords of Justice) or major(box cover legendaries), have in their own*, as they mostly come into play during the late-game and before the Elite Four(BW1 is an exception). Point here is that they made the electric fairy bird guardian thing more important than the rest of the S/M legendary pool. Probably has a decently sized following due to this but I can't tell.

I can really only advocate for these three from Sun/Moon given their positives lie in objective, provable facts and don't need stretching of the imagination to justify. I'm liable to be wrong, of course, but it's what I can work with right now.

*Cosmog and it's evolutions arguably have more importance than Tapu Koko in S/M, but beyond jokes and memes about the bag, how realistic of a choice are they?

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

News to me, but can see why it did...

I didn't really watch the anime any for years after Ruby & Sapphire, but eventually checked out the X/Y series out of curiosity (and as an afterthought when I didn't have much else to watch at the time) which I finished around the end of last year; by finished more like skimmed through a certain chunk of it but regardless, was late to the party on knowing about the whole Ash-Greninja thing. How was that concept received by fans? Again, just curious.

I can't speak much for Ash-Greninja as a concept since plenty of fans had mixed opinions on it. Many fans found it cool and added a lot of depth to Ash's bond with it, while others found the design silly or its placement in Sun & Moon anime pandering.

But you'd think a lot of people loved Ash-Greninja so much when they wanted it to beat Alain's Mega Charizard X very badly instead of losing.

 

[_Sheik]

Some trailers like WFT's, Robin's or Little Mac's had me greatly hoping for voice acting. As in, not grunts like we already have, but literally not-silent protagonists speaking in the midst of battle (and in Little Mac's case, it would be Doc Louis shouting various things such as "THE PUNCH IS MIGHTIER THAN THE SWORD!"). Of course, just like items, voices for each character could individually be turned on and off.

Wii Fit Trainer does talk, but too rarely. And I don't want them to just shout attack/spell names like Shulk and Robin. I want conversation.

My point is, I still wanna see it implemented in a future Smash Bros game.

 

[Opossum]

I would personally argue that the main front-runners for Generation 7 Pokemon would be Decidueye and Tapu Koko, as the former seems to be the most popular starter currently, while the latter is very much the poster-boy that prominently appears in the plot of Sun/Moon and frequently in the anime.

That said, I'm convinced that Decidueye's support solely comes from the same group of people that used to request Sceptile all the time. Wonder what happened to that. Moveset potential aside, I swear these people care more about the Grass-starters just because it forms an imaginary rock-paper-scissors in Smash than it does having anything to do with the character itself.

Tapu Koko is likewise a harder sell when Pikachu is kind of the forefront of Electric-type Pokemon already. His Electric Surge ability, Nature's Madness move, and traits of mixing quick speed with his protective "shell" give him some things to differentiate himself from Pikachu. A much greater defensive approach to Pikachu's offensive one. However, I still find it difficult to see Sakurai finding his inclusion necessary on part of Pikachu's niche being such a prominent one. "Electric Parrying Blitzer" isn't exactly the most unique thing around when "Electric Glass-Cannon Blitzer" is also a thing.

I'd argue Decidueye's support is much more genuine than Sceptile's.

Mainly since "spooky grass archer owl" is more compelling on paper for a fighting game than "big-ass tree gecko." It's fighter concept is immediately apparent. Sceptile doesn't have anything nearly as compelling.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The above is also why I don't see Incineroar being possible as much as I do love it as a Pokemon. It just won't happen because he really only has a wrestler kind of appeal to him and well frankly Bowser and other characters fit that just fine as is.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm sorry, but what?

No seriously. What? That literally makes no sense whatsoever.

I say this as both an Incineroar supporter and Bowser main: that's a completely inaccurate statement.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

I'd argue Decidueye's support is much more genuine than Sceptile's.

Mainly since "spooky grass archer owl" is more compelling on paper for a fighting game than "big-*** tree gecko." It's fighter concept is immediately apparent. Sceptile doesn't have anything nearly as compelling.

Even so, I'd still argue that being Grass-type is why a good chunk of Decidueye's supporters even care about it in the first place in the context of Smash.

If it was the Fire-type starter, with minimal changes to reflect that, I can promise you those that a lot of those who were supporting Sceptile before wouldn't be supporting Decidueye now.

Again, that's not to say Decidueye doesn't have its own merits. It absolutely does, but those merits wouldn't have anywhere near as much attention if Charizard and Greninja weren't both in the game before them.

 

[Luminario]

I'm sorry, but what?

No seriously. What? That literally makes no sense whatsoever.

I say this as both an Incineroar supporter and Bowser main: that's a completely inaccurate statement.

You gotta use the reply button I had no idea who you were talking to until you edited the post.
They do have a point though, Incineroar would be pretty lacking, especially compared to other pokemon going for the gen 7 spot. It's not gonna be anything like Bowser but it would certainly have a very Captain Falcon vibe.

 

[Delzethin]

I'd argue Decidueye's support is much more genuine than Sceptile's.

Mainly since "spooky grass archer owl" is more compelling on paper for a fighting game than "big-*** tree gecko." It's fighter concept is immediately apparent. Sceptile doesn't have anything nearly as compelling.

In a way, I guess. While some of the support for both is for questionable reasons ("we need a Grass type" isn't a point in favor, but mastery of an element no one on the current roster uses is), Decidueye does seem to be in a much better position due to having so many more creative angles to work with.

That, and Decidueye and Gen 7 have kinda stolen the spotlight as far as relevance goes. Though I do think Sceptile was considered for DLC to some extent.

The above is also why I don't see Incineroar being possible as much as I do love it as a Pokemon. It just won't happen because he really only has a wrestler kind of appeal to him and well frankly Bowser and other characters fit that just fine as is.

Not only that, think of how many characters we have who use physical fire attacks. Adding yet another one would be a really tough sell, especially if even his unique traits would still feel similar to already present characters. I think as far as Pokémon newcomers go, Sakurai is more likely to look at 'mons whose abilities would feel completely fresh and new.

And, seeing how plant, wind, and earth/stone-based attacks are all either rare or completely nonexistent on the roster so far...

 

[Deleted member]

You gotta use the reply button I had no idea who you were talking to until you edited the post.
They do have a point though, Incineroar would be pretty lacking, especially compared to other pokemon going for the gen 7 spot. It's not gonna be anything like Bowser but it would certainly have a very Captain Falcon vibe.

No, no it would not.

A character that combines dirty fighting tactics (such as spitting Embers into opponents' eyes to temporarily blind them), with a grappling based fighting style (which the closest thing we've got is Ganondorf having two command grab attacks in his moveset) with the ability to combo command grabs (think Solomon Grundy from Injustice) is not comparable to Captain Falcon in the slightest.


EDIT: Guess "too much fire" is the new "too many swords".

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Incineroar has been compared to Captain Falcon and Bowser.

I'm not fond of the big cat, but their body types and general abilities should tell you they have no business being lumped together like that.

It's like saying no Decidueye cause we have Pit and Link.

 

[Delzethin]

On a side note, something I think is worth taking note of. As we know now, Chrom was considered for Smash 4, but Sakurai and his team couldn't figure out a character concept that didn't either feel out of character or leave him feeling like a retread of Marth and Ike. Meanwhile, Robin was slated for inclusion very early in development, at least according to what we've been shown of an early project proposal.

On their own, they're interesting facts...but combined, they seem to say that Robin and Chrom were probably considered independently of each other. It wasn't one or the other, it wasn't "one Fire Emblem slot", they could've both made it had Chrom's circumstances and abilities been different.

Which gives us even more reason to believe Sakurai has no problem doubling up on newcomers from the same franchise or even the same game if both newcomers are compelling enough. That bodes well particularly for Sun and Moon.

 

[Luminario]

No, no it would not.

A character that combines dirty fighting tactics (such as spitting Embers into opponents' eyes to temporarily blind them), with a grappling based fighting style (which the closest thing we've got is Ganondorf having two command grab attacks in his moveset) with the ability to combo command grabs (think Solomon Grundy from Injustice) is not comparable to Captain Falcon in the slightest.

I said Captain Falcon VIBE, it'll likely be a primarily physical, aggressive, in-your-face attacker with a fire motif. It might feel lacking compared to the other front-runners of Gen 7. I will say that as a grappler it's probably first in line to fill that role if it ever comes up though it's got that niche locked down unless there's a character I've forgotten somewhere.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Incineroar has been compared to Captain Falcon and Bowser.

I'm not fond of the big cat, but their body types and general abilities should tell you they have no business being lumped together like that.

It's like saying no Decidueye cause we have Pit and Link.

It's mostly how I feel like his appeal is sort of there with other characters.

Darkest Lariat would be pretty awesome to see, but that together with what we got idk, I feel like if they did add another pokemon I'm not sure he would have that kind of appeal unlike Decidueye where I see more uniqueness to how someone would add him.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Even so, I'd still argue that being Grass-type is why a good chunk of Decidueye's supporters even care about it in the first place in the context of Smash.

If it was the Fire-type starter, with minimal changes to reflect that, I can promise you those that a lot of those who were supporting Sceptile before wouldn't be supporting Decidueye now.

Again, that's not to say Decidueye doesn't have its own merits. It absolutely does, but those merits wouldn't have anywhere near as much attention if Charizard and Greninja weren't both in the game before them.

Fire/Ghost Owl would actually be amazing, if not better than the Grass-version.

That aside, just because people like the unique aesthetic a Plant-based fighter brings doesn't mean it's a "bandwagon" character.
Yeah, Decidueye's niche in the roster is partly because he's a grass-based fighter (note that I'm not talking about a "complete triangle"), just like Pikachu has the advantage of being electric-based. It gives a certain vibe to the moveset at a basic level and bringing unseen mechanics to the fray if going all out (You can't shoot a fire seed so that a fire tree comes out) but I fail to see why that would take away from Decidueye's popularity just because Sceptile's support might or may have not existed based on a "triangle" (which is again, different from seeing potential for uniqueness on a visual level, not unlike Corn having basic lance attacks attached to a visual appealing "dragon's vein")

It becomes different when people say he's likely because of an arbitrary concept of completing the type triangle or because of the conditions being vaguely similar to Greninja's.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

While there's no question some went after Grovyle and Sceptile for being Grass, they did have prominent roles among Pokemon works, so not all of it was "just Grass". Grovyle is more that than Sceptile in this case. He had a pretty big role in the PMD series. Unfortunately, that's... about it that I can say about him. I haven't really played those games.

However, the anime is different. The Sceptile line was easily notable there.bTwo different times. During the original Hoenn seasons, but most notably as part of the rival set in X/Y. There were pretty much 2 sets of rivals as well. Ones who had the original Kanto trio(these are downplayed as extra rivals) and the big ones, being Alan who has Charizard X, and... I forget his name(I honestly don't remember any of the rivals' names as much, to be fair) who has Sceptile, including Mega Sceptile. We see all the Megas among this and Ash-Greninja(which is kind of like a Mega Evolution). Only 3 are really given major prominence, being Charizard(X version specifically), Ash-Greninja, and Mega Sceptile. This makes Sceptile legitimately notable for its importance in the anime, and not becuase it's simply Grass.

I'm not saying it should've gotten in, of course. But I am saying that 'lol grass" does ignore the major role in the anime and how much Sceptile got pushed as a character.

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

On a side note, something I think is worth taking note of. As we know now, Chrom was considered for Smash 4, but Sakurai and his team couldn't figure out a character concept that didn't either feel out of character or leave him feeling like a retread of Marth and Ike. Meanwhile, Robin was slated for inclusion very early in development, at least according to what we've been shown of an early project proposal.

On their own, they're interesting facts...but combined, they seem to say that Robin and Chrom were probably considered independently of each other. It wasn't one or the other, it wasn't "one Fire Emblem slot", they could've both made it had Chrom's circumstances and abilities been different.

Which gives us even more reason to believe Sakurai has no problem doubling up on newcomers from the same franchise or even the same game if both newcomers are compelling enough. That bodes well particularly for Sun and Moon.

In other words, bias is fine when it's Fire Emblem.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

*Cosmog and it's evolutions arguably have more importance than Tapu Koko in S/M, but beyond jokes and memes about the bag, how realistic of a choice are they?

One problem that I know that Cosmog has is that it has no way of attacking outside of Struggle. It could just be a Poke Ball Pokemon who does nothing more but splash around (much like with Goldeen).

Solgaleo and Lunala probably have more going for them, but I see them more as being part of a stage, or being Poke Ball Pokemon.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

One problem that I know that Cosmog has is that it has no way of attacking outside of Struggle. It could just be a Poke Ball Pokemon who does nothing more but splash around (much like with Goldeen).

Solgaleo and Lunala probably have more going for them, but I see them more as being part of a stage, or being Poke Ball Pokemon.

To be fair in a Smash context Sakurai can just make him attack with space laser stuff even though he technically doesn't canonically

 

[Arcadenik]

Aether Paradise from Pokemon Sun & Moon would be a great stage. It could take place in the conservation area. A portal could appear in the background and a random Ultra Beast would come out and attack the stage and then go back in the portal.

Decidueye for Smash
Meowth for Smash

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Nihilego also for Smash.

Poison, tentacles, unique-typing, neurotoxins and all

 

[KirbCider]

As far as the poll goes I chose 3 to 4 because that seems to be the most likely.

Ice Climbers will most likely get included as long as the port doesn't have to share similarities with the Wii U/3DS mainly due to the fact they were already worked on and even functional on the Wii U. Next they may surprise us with someone else from the Smash Ballot held long ago, and they may attempt to include a new character to advertise a new game on the Switch, too.

Arms would be a good example of that, but it depends on how hard they want to push that specific game though.

Either way, they would have to include some kind of additional content to make people not only buy the game for a second (or third time even), but to also make them want to get a Switch to play it even more. So it's pretty likely we'll get some at least.

As for the Pokemon talk...

I suppose it depends on how many newcomers we will actually get.

If it's just three to four I don't think we'll get a new Pokemon rep at all, especially if the game is just a port. If they decide to include new items though, I could see some 7th Gen Pokemon making an appearance or even the Ultra Beasts too. Either way, I feel like there's plenty of other characters far more deserving than another Pokemon rep to make it into the Switch port first truthfully.

However, if it was a new game built from scratch and not just a port...? A new Pokemon rep would probably be likely.

As for who the Pokemon rep would be though, I definitely feel it would be one of the starters from Sun/Moon. We already have some original Pokemon and some that represent the Mega Evolution's, so one that can represent the Z-Moves would be nice.

 

[Deleted member]

Nihilego also for Smash.

Poison, tentacles, unique-typing, neurotoxins and all

Confirmed to not know what neurotoxins are and what Nihilego does with them.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Mimikyu over all Pokémon.

*grabs popcorn*

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Confirmed to not know what neurotoxins are and what Nihilego does with them.

Except I do?
I get that it's a hard thing to implement but that doesn't mean I don't know what it does.

Mimikyu over all Pokémon.

*grabs popcorn*

Eeh sure

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

Mimikyu over all Pokémon.

*grabs popcorn*

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

[Pixlemaster]

Inkling propaganda poster by @Sirlinkerz

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Lately I've been thinking about Altar of the Sunne / Altar of the Moone being a new stage. You can choose which version of the stage that you want to fight at, which also affects which Pokemon will appear on-stage. If you choose Altar of the Sunne, Solgaleo will appear, while Lunala appears at Altar of the Moone.

However, Solgaleo and Lunala are not just spectators, as they will sometimes attack any fighters in their path with their signature attacks; Sunsteel Strike for Solgaleo; Moongeist Beam for Lunala.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

No Alolan Raichu love?

 

[Deleted member]

Except I do?
I get that it's a hard thing to implement but that doesn't mean I don't know what it does.

Nihilego's specifically turn people violent while boosting their power.

Very bad idea in Smash. As is Nihilego in general.

 

[Luminario]

Mimikyu over all Pokémon.

*grabs popcorn*

God please. Mimikyu's like THE gen 7 pokemon here anyway. Decidueye wishes it had Mimikyu's fame.

Nihilego's specifically turn people violent while boosting their power.

Very bad idea in Smash. As is Nihilego in general.

Lusamine Nihilego form would kick ass though.

Lately I've been thinking about Altar of the Sunne / Altar of the Moone being a new stage. You can choose which version of the stage that you want to fight at, which also affects which Pokemon will appear on-stage. If you choose Altar of the Sunne, Solgaleo will appear, while Lunala appears at Altar of the Moone.

However, Solgaleo and Lunala are not just spectators, as they will sometimes attack any fighters in their path with their signature attacks; Sunsteel Strike for Solgaleo; Moongeist Beam for Lunala.

I'm really loving this, it's got heavy Spear Pillar vibes.

 

[Deleted member]

Lusamine Nihilego form would kick *** though.

Have Lusamine be in Smash (she's cruel enough to beat people up alongside her Pokémon, especially with Nihilego's neurotoxin) and her Final Smash be the Motherbeast.

Problem solved.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Sometimes I think that Mimikyu is overrated. I get that it disguises itself as a Pikachu, but other than that, I just don't see it doing any better than the Poke Ball treatment, or a mere trophy cameo.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Have Lusamine be in Smash (she's cruel enough to beat people up alongside her Pokémon, especially with Nihilego's neurotoxin) and her Final Smash be the Motherbeast.

Problem solved.

I love you.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

> Implying it was a bad thing.

 

[Deleted member]

I love you.

Yomi's Biggest Fan

Looks like you have competition now.

 

[Luminario]

Have Lusamine be in Smash (she's cruel enough to beat people up alongside her Pokémon, especially with Nihilego's neurotoxin) and her Final Smash be the Motherbeast.

Problem solved.

No joke, I'd be absolutely thrilled at that. Give me that bat **** crazy mother to main.

Sometimes I think that Mimikyu is overrated. I get that it disguises itself as a Pikachu, but other than that, I just don't see it doing any better than the Poke Ball treatment, or a mere trophy cameo.

I'd say it's got enough to be a playable fighter. It's certainly popular and has enough material. Likely scenario is of course a pokeball pokemon like you said.

 

[Deleted member]

No joke, I'd be absolutely thrilled at that. Give me that bat **** crazy mother to main.

Honestly, I was joking about it, but now that I think more on it, it would be a cool idea that I wouldn't mind in the slightest.
Bonus points in that it actually properly represents Nihilego by showing the effects of the symbiotic relationship between it and its host.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Honestly, I was joking about it, but now that I think more on it, it would be a cool idea that I wouldn't mind in the slightest.
Bonus points in that it actually properly represents Nihilego by showing the effects of the symbiotic relationship between it and its host.

I think that's a great concept, Lusamine & Nihilego.

Better than Lillie & Nebby by a huge margin.

 

[Deleted member]

I think that's a great concept, Lusamine & Nihilego.

Better than Lillie & Nebby by a huge margin.

Oh definitely.
Unlike Lillie & Nebby, Lusamine & Nihilego would actually be capable of fighting (and would be more than willing to do so).

And in general, Lusamine would help cover bases where Nihilego falls short on and vice-versa.....

Though it's not just Lusamine & Nihilego; she'd summon her other Pokémon in the fight as well.