Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

Almost one month has passed since release. In retrospect....

  • This is by far the best Smash ever. Like, I don't even know how they will top this.

  • Pretty freakin' good; I have a few qualms over things like internet play, balancing issues, etc.

  • It's ok, but [insert Smash game here] is better.

  • I'd rather play Parcheesi.


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JaiTheGuy

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1. Mechawiggler Battle (Mario Odyssey)
2. Pac Baby (Pac Man Championship Edition)
3. Rabbid Kong Theme (Kingdom Battle)
4. Hisstocrat (Super Mario 3D World)
5. Jungle Joust (Donkey Kong Adventure)
6. Yo Yo Yoshi (Yoshi's Story)
 
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Gyrom8

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Let's just say that Beep Block Skyway was used on an infamous Flash video. Don't wanna go further but the YouTube video's comments give the gist.
As for Kirby's Pinball Land, it's associated with a very funny but a very NSFW anecdote from 4chan.

... ANYWAYS, agree that 3D World could do with more tracks

And Super Mario Land
 
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Resident Evil, however, is Capcom's best selling franchise by a large margin, has significant Nintendo ties (with RE:Rev 1 & 2 both available on Switch now, RE7 available in Japan and REmake & RE:0 ports on the way) and is the main moneymaker franchise they're relying on in 2019.
wait...Capcom ain’t got nothing else planned for a main moneymaker this year? Just the RE series...no DMC, MM, SF, MH...AA?
Reggie, at the private event: "Check this **** out!"
*Reggie does a backflip*
*Audience applauses*
I’d pay to see that
we're pleased to announce that due to popular demand, every track in super smash bros ultimate has been replaced with ring dong dang

Not gonna fight against that decision
I can tell you right now i dont remember a single track from Mario 3 aside from the overworld songs which are some of the most annoying songs ive ever heard
even if you somehow don’t remember any songs from SMB3, there’s still 64, Sunshine, the Galaxy Duo, 3D Land/World, Odyssey, spin-off games...the list of memorable and awesome Mario songs...or bangers as nobody old calls them...goes on
Okay, last song I'm posting because I could keep going for days.

But this is clearly the Fire Emblem song we need.

It’s so unexpected for a Fire Emblem game that it’s instantly awesome
 

Robertman2

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wait...Capcom ain’t got nothing else planned for a main moneymaker this year? Just the RE series...no DMC, MM, SF, MH...AA?

I’d pay to see that

Not gonna fight against that decision

even if you somehow don’t remember any songs from SMB3, there’s still 64, Sunshine, the Galaxy Duo, 3D Land/World, Odyssey, spin-off games...the list of memorable and awesome Mario songs...or bangers as nobody old calls them...goes on

It’s so unexpected for a Fire Emblem game that it’s instantly awesome
DMCV comes out in March. Nothing beyond that
 

Wademan94

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I remember posting this on one of the music threads well before Ultimate’s release:

So I’ve given myself a personal challenge of finding at least one unrepresented music track that I thought would fit each stage in Ultimate, here's the results of my (maybe not so) little challenge:




3D Land: Plucky Pass Beginnings ~ Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker
Golden Plains: Remix 10 ~ Super Mario Run
Paper Mario: Big Bang! (Boss Battle) ~ Mario and Luigi: Paper Jam
Gerudo Valley: Stone Tower Temple ~ The Legend of Zelda: Majora’s Mask
Spirit Train: Yuga-Ganon Battle ~ The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds
Dream Land GB: Yogurt Yard ~ Kirby’s Adventure
Unova Pokémon League: Battle! Zinnia ~ Pokémon Omega Ruby & Alpha Sapphire
Prism Tower: Driftveil City ~ Pokémon Black and White
Mute City SNES: Port Town ~ F-Zero
Magicant: Sanctuary Guardian ~ Earthbound
Arena Ferox: Twilight of the Gods ~ Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia
Reset Bomb Forest: Boss Battle 2 ~ Kid Icarus: Uprising
Tortimer Island: Isabelle’s Theme ~ Animal Crossing: Happy Home Designer
Balloon Fight: Balloon Trip Breeze-Noon ~ Nintendo Land
Living Room: Walking the Dog ~ Nintendogs
Find Mii: Battle: The Darkest Lord ~ Miitopia
Tomodachi Life: Hole in One ~ Rhythm Heaven Fever
Pictochat 2: 3D Classics (Main Theme) ~ Nintendo 3DS
Mushroom Kingdom U: Castle Boss ~ New Super Mario Bros. Wii
Mario Galaxy: Battlerock Galaxy ~ Super Mario Galaxy
Mario Circuit: Electrodrome ~ Mario Kart 8
Skyloft: The Sky ~ The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword
The Great Cave Offensive: Peanut Plain ~ Kirby Super Star
Kalos Pokémon League: Vs. Xerneas/Yveltal ~ Pokémon X and Y
Coliseum: Road Taken (Roar) ~ Fire Emblem Fates
Flat Zone X: Octopus Dance Medley~ Nintendo Land
Palutena’s Temple: Aurum Island ~ Kid Icarus: Uprising
Gamer: Body Rock ~ WarioWare D.I.Y.
Garden of Hope: Plasma Wraith~ Pikmin 3
Town and City: Downtown (Animal Crossing Sweet Day)~ Nintendo Land
Wii Fit Studio: Rhythm Kung-Fu ~ Wii Fit Plus
Boxing Ring: Major Circuit ~ Punch-Out!!
Gaur Plain: Unfinished Battle ~ Xenoblade Chronicles
Duck Hunt: Forest Theme ~ Mole Mania
Wrecking Crew: Andy’s Theme ~ Advance Wars: Dual Strike
Pilotwings: Main Theme ~ Pilotwings Resort
Wuhu Island: Main Theme ~ Wave Race 64
Windy Hill Zone: Fist Bump ~ Sonic Forces
Wily Castle: Abandoned Memory (Dr. Wily Stage 1) ~ Mega Man 10
PAC-LAND: Menu Theme (PAC-MAN VS.)
Super Mario Maker: Gnat Attack ~ Mario Paint
Suzaku Castle: Ryu’s Theme ~ Street Fighter V
Midgar: That Person’s Name Is ~ Bravely Default or Battle ~ Octopath Traveler
Umbra Clock Bridge: The Greatest Jubilee ~ Bayonetta


And if any of these songs make the cut, they will definitely be going onto the respective stage.
Just wanted to share now we’re on that topic
 
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So I was bored (waiting in the lab for my measurements to finish) so I decided to start a little thing.

You see, everyone keeps asking for peoples top-5 characters for smash, but there is a much more important question:
The top-5 SONGS that should be in smash.

For me, it goes a bit like this:

1. Dialga's Fight to the Finish (PMD2) https://youtu.be/wy9VvdaLuSs

2. Battle!! (Torna: the Golden Country) https://youtu.be/uRtAbX2-f3A

3. Rundas Battle (Metroid Prime 3) https://youtu.be/6nMFLquJeCc

4. Ghost Fight (Undertale) https://youtu.be/Zz1bfhtKsHM

5. VS Joe (Pokémon Battle Revolution) https://youtu.be/yp5XpFJHqzU

(6. Mt. Pyre peak, Pokémon Emerald, https://youtu.be/TEtlhq1PxI4)
I agree with the aforementioned "Don't Speak Her Name!" and "Dialga's Fight for the Finish"
For the other 3, I think:
Road Taken
The Ultimate Show
and Molgera's theme
Are also songs that should make it.

I remember posting this on one of the music threads well before Ultimate’s release:



Just wanted to share now we’re on that topic
What about Dracula's Castle?

Also, given the way music distribution in Ultimate works, I doubt that music tracks will be going to a stage separate from their series. You can't play the Tetris themes on Luigi's Mansion anymore for example.
 
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That presents a big problem as Ebony and Ivory are kind of important to Dante as a character and iconic to his kit. It's not like Snake where he doesn't really focus on a single type of gun or guns in general meaning they can be altered or changed out to a degree while retaining his focus as a character. Dante's twin pistols are one of his more iconic traits so using something else while accurate would lose quite a lot for his character(its iconic to the character so much that missions generally transition to the results screen through the screen being blasted multiple times by them). Taking away Dante's pistols would be like taking away Bayonetta's Wicked Weaves.

If realistic guns are indeed still an issue to that degree a redesign is the only real option at that point. It's just how could they be redesigned that would present the issue and if Capcom would be willing to budge on that to begin with.
It's issues like this and the removal of the Tharja trophy that make me wish Nintendo would just allow the game to be Teen rated worldwide..not being so does limit the portrayal of several of their and 3rd party characters.
 

Wademan94

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Fist Bump is actually in the game for what it's worth.
also 100/10 choice in midgar music
Like I said, I made it well before Ultimate’s release. I’m surprised quite a few tracks I wanted made it in.

I agree with the aforementioned "Don't Speak Her Name!" and "Dialga's Fight for the Finish"
For the other 3, I think:
Road Taken
The Ultimate Show
and Molgera's theme
Are also songs that should make it.


What about Dracula's Castle?

Also, given the way music distribution in Ultimate works, I doubt that music tracks will be going to a stage separate from their series. You can't play the Tetris themes on Luigi's Mansion anymore for example.
I figured I didn’t need to add more to Mr. 34 tracks. (Plus I’m admittedly not too familiar with Castlevania’s music) I’m not sure what exactly that second statement is in reference to.
 
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It's issues like this and the removal of the Tharja trophy that make me wish Nintendo would just allow the game to be Teen rated worldwide..not being so does limit the portrayal of several of their and 3rd party characters.
I’d rather keep the games at the E10+ rating we currently have
 

Robertman2

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That presents a big problem as Ebony and Ivory are kind of important to Dante as a character and iconic to his kit. It's not like Snake where he doesn't really focus on a single type of gun or guns in general meaning they can be altered or changed out to a degree while retaining his focus as a character. Dante's twin pistols are one of his more iconic traits so using something else while accurate would lose quite a lot for his character(its iconic to the character so much that missions generally transition to the results screen through the screen being blasted multiple times by them). Taking away Dante's pistols would be like taking away Bayonetta's Wicked Weaves.

If realistic guns are indeed still an issue to that degree a redesign is the only real option at that point. It's just how could they be redesigned that would present the issue and if Capcom would be willing to budge on that to begin with.
joker and bayo
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Snake doesn’t need the guns, especially because the fighting style that is common in MGS is CQC. He’s a martial artist on top of his other skills. The moveset fits.

Also, remember that Sakurai said Nintendo console appearances are not a necessity. I don’t see what the big deal is.

If we’re using an extremely obscure appearance to justify Cloud and Joker, I think we should just reconsider what we think of as “Nintendo history”.

Or, make “Nintendo history” as a criteria less important in our speculation!
 

Idon

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Even if those characters never had much presence on Nintendo consoles, their franchises did. Both Final Fantasy and Megami Tensei started out on the NES.

Overwatch on the other hand, has not appeared at all.
I honestly doubt Joker was chosen for his megaten connections. From the Nintendo article, that was about as important as a footnote.

Seems to me the primary deciding factor was P5's popularity and Sakurai's own personal enjoyment of the game.

If that's the case, I wouldn't be surprised to see more contemporary games like Minecraft, Overwatch, Fortnite, Skyrim/Fallout and the like.
 

Knight Dude

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Although, when it comes to Sonic songs, I kind of wish they used more stage themes and not just the cheesy vocal songs.

Seaside Hill, Mushroom Hill, Ice Cap Zone, Lost Jungle, Egg Fleet, Final boss from Sonic 3.

Hell, I'd even take the Knuckles stage from SA2 for background music since the instrumentation is still good.
 

Idon

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Snake doesn’t need the guns, especially because the fighting style that is common in MGS is CQC. He’s a martial artist on top of his other skills. The moveset fits.

Also, remember that Sakurai said Nintendo console appearances are not a necessity. I don’t see what the big deal is.

If we’re using an extremely obscure appearance to justify Cloud and Joker, I think we should just reconsider what we think of as “Nintendo history”.

Or, make “Nintendo history” as a criteria less important in our speculation!
Yes, the fighting style that first appeared in MGS3, the fighting style which he doesn't use until MGS4 as Old Snake, the fighting style that isn't used at all in Snake's animations. Snake is a soldier, the martial arts is supplementary to that. Saying that guns aren't important to MGS is some damn revisionist history if I've EVER heard any.

Snake doesn't need guns, sure.
Doesn't mean he's a "martial artist on top of his other skills"
 

Knight Dude

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I think Snake's moveset is fine as is, but let's not pretend that a good chunk of Metal Gear's combat, doesn't involve either sneaking up behind someone or shooting them. If Snake weren't already in the series by Brawl, we'd question if he'd work. If the idea is to properly represent him as much as possible, like Mega Man and Simon were for example, I think more than a couple people would expect him to use standard firearms since that's more commonly used than his heavy duty weaponry. But I think they did a great job representing him with his crazier weapons instead.

Hell, that's one reason why people aren't talking about Lara Croft as much, since she also relies more on conventional firearms.
 
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Jomosensual

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I think Snake's moveset is fine as is, but let's not pretend that a good chunk of Metal Gear's combat, doesn't involve either sneaking up behind someone or shooting them. If Snake weren't already in the series by Brawl, we'd question if he'd work. If the idea is to properly represent him as much as possible, like Mega Man and Simon were for example, I think more than a couple people would expect him to use standard firearms since that's more commonly used than his heavy duty weaponry. But I think they did a great job representing him with his crazier weapons instead.

Hell, that's one reason why people aren't talking about Lara Croft as much, since she also relies more on conventional firearms.
Very true, although Lara Croft would be a really cool character for DLC
 

Cutie Gwen

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After playing Metal Gear myself I can safely say that no guns is so weirrrrrd. Like, I get it but couldn't we at least have gotten a tranq special? Other than his smash attacks he feels pretty natural imo cause when the hell are you going to consistently use those kind of weapons in MGS? Outside the claymore obviously, that's a pretty good one although it's gone now
 

Scoliosis Jones

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Yes, the fighting style that first appeared in MGS3, the fighting style which he doesn't use until MGS4 as Old Snake, the fighting style that isn't used at all in Snake's animations. Snake is a soldier, the martial arts is supplementary to that. Saying that guns aren't important to MGS is some damn revisionist history if I've EVER heard any.

Snake doesn't need guns, sure.
Doesn't mean he's a "martial artist on top of his other skills"
Bruh, no **** the guns are important to a shooting game. I’ve played the entire series to know this. I also know that his jab and tilt come from MGS 1 and 2 respectively. He was trained as a super soldier using the same skills as his “father”. I never said they weren’t important. I didn’t revise anything!

The point was you don’t need the guns for his moveset.

Let’s also mention I never even said gunplay wasn’t important. Not once. I simply said Snake doesn’t need the guns.
 
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This might be a good time to add that I’m making a series of videos with music that are much-needed in Smash. I’m currently sitting on 200 unique videos including PP, Joker, and Erdrick/RyuH/Steve/Doomslayer with plans to also include music with an Assist Trophy Rep or a Spirit Rep.

I’m always searching of new music to add so I am totally open to suggestions!
1. Act 4-2 - Ninja Gaiden
2. Stage 1 - Contra
3. Main Theme - Double Dragon
4. Windmill Hills - Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze
5. Zero's Allies - Metal Gear Solid Peacewalker
6. Pledge of Demon - Yakuza 0
7. Frog's Theme - Chrono Trigger
8. Pursuit ~ Cornered - Phoenix Wright
9. Dogfight - Ace Combat: Assault Horizon
10. Pushing Onwards - VVVVVVV
 

fleshdude.gov

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I mean, there's another problem with regular guns in smash, and that's mainly that they'd be...simultaneously kinda useless and kinda broken from purely a game design perspective.

Like, a bullet's a tiny projectile that goes perfectly straight at a high speed.

In smash, a projectile that only goes straight ahead isn't really considered very good unless it has enough coverage to justify it/the ability to use it while close. Bullets are too small to justify the coverage (unless it's like, something with a spreadshot), and the firing animation for firing (at least for anything that's not an automatic) would likely have a fairly slow start-up, making it easily punishable.

Not to mention the fact that there's not really any potential for set-up from firing, so it would only be a kill move.
 
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I mean, there's another problem with regular guns in smash, and that's mainly that they'd be...simultaneously kinda useless and kinda broken from purely a game design perspective.

Like, a bullet's a tiny projectile that goes perfectly straight at a high speed.
I think any realistic gun would just work the way it does for Bayonetta, and make it so the muzzle flash is the attack, rather than an actual projectile.
 

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I mean, there's another problem with regular guns in smash, and that's mainly that they'd be...simultaneously kinda useless and kinda broken from purely a game design perspective.

Like, a bullet's a tiny projectile that goes perfectly straight at a high speed.

In smash, a projectile that only goes straight ahead isn't really considered very good unless it has enough coverage to justify it/the ability to use it while close. Bullets are too small to justify the coverage (unless it's like, something with a spreadshot), and the firing animation for firing (at least for anything that's not an automatic) would likely have a fairly slow start-up, making it easily punishable.

Not to mention the fact that there's not really any potential for set-up from firing, so it would only be a kill move.
That could pose as a potential issue. But since Link's Arrows and Mega Man's regular Buster shots are in, it would have to be too weird to work with.

Honestly, realistic guns should be handled in a similar manner to Deadpool in MVC3. Oversized for visual clarity and with crazy effects on the bullets that works for the same reason, as well as keeping the Soccer Moms and Nintendo Cops happy.

Deadpool Shooting Air.gif
 

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I mean, there's another problem with regular guns in smash, and that's mainly that they'd be...simultaneously kinda useless and kinda broken from purely a game design perspective.

Like, a bullet's a tiny projectile that goes perfectly straight at a high speed.

In smash, a projectile that only goes straight ahead isn't really considered very good unless it has enough coverage to justify it/the ability to use it while close. Bullets are too small to justify the coverage (unless it's like, something with a spreadshot), and the firing animation for firing (at least for anything that's not an automatic) would likely have a fairly slow start-up, making it easily punishable.

Not to mention the fact that there's not really any potential for set-up from firing, so it would only be a kill move.
I mean we can't really say that without many examples. Bayonetta's guns shoot out physical projectiles that help rack up the damage more. If we got a character with a shotgun then the move wouldn't have as much range but the muzzle flare would be the hitbox, etc.
 

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I mean, there's another problem with regular guns in smash, and that's mainly that they'd be...simultaneously kinda useless and kinda broken from purely a game design perspective.

Like, a bullet's a tiny projectile that goes perfectly straight at a high speed.

In smash, a projectile that only goes straight ahead isn't really considered very good unless it has enough coverage to justify it/the ability to use it while close. Bullets are too small to justify the coverage (unless it's like, something with a spreadshot), and the firing animation for firing (at least for anything that's not an automatic) would likely have a fairly slow start-up, making it easily punishable.

Not to mention the fact that there's not really any potential for set-up from firing, so it would only be a kill move.
Fighting games have already figured this out decades ago and have been putting in firearm characters for years.

Here is a non-exhaustive list of countermeasures to putting gun characters in.
-low damage (Fox already does this)
-muzzle flash hitbox only
-ammo system
-long telegraphed draws
-big recoil
-unorthodox firing angles
-exaggerated gun sizes
It's gotten to the point where I think most fighters outside of Tekken have gun characters.

If you want an analysis on how guns would work and how to pull them off, here's an analysis of a character that doesn't pull it off and comparing with characters who do.
 
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fleshdude.gov

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I mean we can't really say that without many examples. Bayonetta's guns shoot out physical projectiles that help rack up the damage more. If we got a character with a shotgun then the move wouldn't have as much range but the muzzle flare would be the hitbox, etc.
The thing about Bayonetta is that she's almost never just firing her guns - she's doing other things such as kicking and twirling that get off most of the hits.

Fighting games have already figured this out decades ago and have been putting in firearm characters for years.

Here is a non-exhaustive list of countermeasures to putting gun characters in.
-muzzle flash hitbox only
-ammo system
-long draw
-big recoil
-unorthodox firing angles
-exaggerated gun sizes
It's gotten to the point where I think most fighters outside of Tekken have gun characters.

If you want an analysis on how guns would work and how to pull them off, here's an analysis of a character that doesn't pull it off and comparing with characters who do.
Most fighters aren't designed around platforming, though. Most fighters are designed around a single, flat plane in an enclosed space. Smash is not. You aren't dealing with the same set of game design constraints, and you have to take that into consideration when designing a moveset. Saying "most fighters outside of Tekken have gun characters" ignores that.

Point by point:
- Fox's projectiles get around this by being a significantly larger hitbox than a bullet would have.
- This one could work, but only for certain guns. Handguns, which is what most characters who have guns would be using, would too small a flash to really work.
- This isn't really related to my point.
- Slow start-up on a small projectile is kinda useless.
- See the muzzle flash point.
- This could work, but they'd have to be telegraphed.
- This is the one that can work - but you can't really size up a pistol.
 
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The thing about Bayonetta is that she's almost never just firing her guns - she's doing other things such as kicking and twirling that get off most of the hits.



Most fighters aren't designed around platforming, though. Most fighters are designed around a single, flat plane in an enclosed space. Smash is not. You aren't dealing with the same set of game design constraints, and you have to take that into consideration when designing a moveset. Saying "most fighters outside of Tekken have gun characters" ignores that.
I'm not sure of how having platform elements that doesn't play like a traditional fighter, have anything against a gun user, not angry, just wondering.
 
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