Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Polan]

I don't even mean based on Smash.

I mean in the Kirby series in general.

He used to literally just be a one-off opponent in a minor sub-game.
Then he becomes a minor NPC for a new major sub-game within the game's remake, makes a cameo in a sub-game for another title, then gets added as the 4th playable character in another game somehow?
Like, they didn't have any ideas on who to add after Dedede and Meta Knight so they just go "hey, this random NPC Waddle Dee with a bandana? Let's just give him a spear and make him the last character."

And ever since then, he's suddenly everywhere and is considered the next big character after Dedede and Meta Knight.
Like what the hell happened here?

Uh, the fans liked him? How difficult is that to understand?

 

[BluePikmin11]

I had a strange connection of thoughts today. I am starting to associate the amount of newcomers added in every Smash game (12-15) with the average 1-cour anime. I see unique newcomers as the main episodes, last-minute clones as bonus shorts, and DLC as OVAs. My weebness has gone to a new level. It makes me wonder though, is creating a newcomer in Smash as difficult as creating one episode for an anime?

 

[Deleted member]

Uh, the fans liked him? How difficult is that to understand?

As difficult as it is for you to understand the context in what I'm talking about and for you to not be a ****, it seems.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Dedede is my favorite anime character.

"I NEED A MONSTAH TO CLOBBAH DAT DERE KIRBY"
"HE DON'T SCARE ME NONE"

 

[Polan]

As difficult as it is for you to understand the context in what I'm talking about and for you to not be a ****, it seems.

I gave you an answer and now I'm a ****. Okay then.

 

[Wyoming]

In my headcanon, the Waddle Dee in Crystal Shards is the Bandana Dee of today.

He grew up so fast!

 

[Sonic Poke]

Talking about the stage builder, I think they should give us the one from brawl back. I mean, the ability to draw the stage shouldn't be scraped at all, but the assets we had before were much better, and they should be brought back.

I remember being quite hyped about the new stage builder but when I finally used it it was really lame. I used brawl's all the time, but I mostly ignored wii u's.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Uh, the fans liked him? How difficult is that to understand?

That's a non-answer. Characters don't suddenly get upgraded just like that. How did he get that particular weapon, for instance. Waddle Dee being popular is only one factor. There's more to it than that.

 

[Deleted member]

I gave you an answer and now I'm a ****. Okay then.

You answered a rhetorical question while insinuating that I'm incapable of even comprehending such a simple answer.

With said answer not even actually answering the question.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Bandana Waddle Dee seems to be a respected member of the Waddle Dees and something of a legend.

He was chosen to represent his entire species according to Star Allies flavor and was apparently very humble about it.

 

[Miifighters4Smash5]

"I NEED A MONSTAH TO CLOBBAH DAT DERE KIRBY"

Nightmare Enterprises Customer Service: That's what we do Best at N.M.E
Escargoon: You better get it with a Money-Back Guarentee!!

 

[FlareHabanero]

I don't even mean based on Smash.

I mean in the Kirby series in general.

He used to literally just be a one-off opponent in a minor sub-game.
Then he becomes a minor NPC for a new major sub-game within the game's remake, makes a cameo in a sub-game for another title, then gets added as the 4th playable character in another game somehow?
Like, they didn't have any ideas on who to add after Dedede and Meta Knight so they just go "hey, this random NPC Waddle Dee with a bandana? Let's just give him a spear and make him the last character."

And ever since then, he's suddenly everywhere and is considered the next big character after Dedede and Meta Knight.
Like what the hell happened here?

The nutshell version is that Waddle Dees are marketable in the same way Kirby himself is, being simplistic, round, and cute. So naturally trying to make one of the Waddle Dees a recurring character is basically taking advantage of that.

In fact Waddle Dees in general have been heavily promoted in recent years with the different Kirby collaborations, like with the Kirby Cafe and Kirby Pupupu Train ones.

 

[Salcan]

That's a non-answer. Characters don't suddenly get upgraded just like that. How did he get that particular weapon, for instance. Waddle Dee being popular is only one factor. There's more to it than that.

Waddle Dees have been known for spears ever since Right Back at Ya! . So the Waddle Dee representative can justify having a spear. Why that over Parasol... Spear was new at the time of Return. (Also they later gave Bandana Dee a parasol in Robobot and Battle Royale.)

 

[Deleted member]

Bandana Waddle Dee seems to be a respected member of the Waddle Dees and something of a legend.

He was chosen to represent his entire species according to Star Allies flavor and was apparently very humble about it.

That lore aspect was still far after his first appearance or even his first playable one.
As in after he was already a big deal.

 

[Wyoming]

Talking about the stage builder, I think they should give us the one from brawl back. I mean, the ability to draw the stage shouldn't be scraped at all, but the assets we had before were much better, and they should be brought back.

I remember being quite hyped about the new stage builder but when I finally used it it was really lame. I used brawl's all the time, but I mostly ignored wii u's.

What they should do is give us access to every asset in the game.

They are already in the data files just give em to us.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

That lore aspect was still far after his first appearance or even his first playable one.
As in after he was already a big deal.

Eh. Lore is added after the fact all the time.

I mean Meta Knight wasn't really special in Kirby's Adventure. Then Super Star came around and suddenly he's got a brand new characterization and motivation along with new abilities.

Kirby has a history of just taking a popular character and expanding on them later. I personally think searching for why he became a big deal is a bit meaningless at this point. He just, is one now.

 

[Bradli Wartooth]

I know I've posted special move ideas for a Harvest Moon Farmer in the past, but I recently took the time to write up a full moveset for him. Here is the final product!

Harvest Moon Farmer Moveset:

Spoiler

Harvest Moon Farmer, aka Jack

Harvest Moon is a very long running franchise, dating back to 1996 on the SNES. Since its initial release, the series has boasted 24 games through 2017, most of which have been Nintendo exclusive titles.

So what would the Farmer do? Well, the purpose of a Harvest Moon game is to maintain and grow your farmland. How does that translate to Smash? It’s fairly simple if you ask me. This character would excel at controlling space. The Farmers’ advantage would be their ability to take space and set up traps. Between the long list of tools and different crops and animals available in the Harvest Moon titles, there are plenty of fun and unique options for the farmer to use.

*Weight and Speed are determined using Smash 4’s weight and speed ranking system. I won’t use the numbers, but I’ll use characters to depict how quick/heavy he is.


Weight: The Farmer has the same weight as Cloud.


Speed: The Farmer’s walk speed is average, ranking within the same speed as Mario and Shulk. His sprint speed is slightly above average, being comparable to Donkey Kong’s. Trust me, the Farmer runs a lot.


Jab: A fairly standard jab, consisting of 2 punches and a kick finisher.


Forward Tilt: The Farmer thrusts forward with a pitchfork.


Up Tilt: The Farmer tosses seeds above his head with an animation similar to planting in Friends of Mineral Town on GBA and Harvest Moon DS.


Down Tilt: The Farmer swipes at opponents feet with his sickle.


Dash Attack: The Farmer throws a load of fodder/straw in front of him.


Forward Smash: The Farmer winds up his hoe to till the ground in front of him. Just like with upgraded hoes in several Harvest Moon titles, longer charges cause the tilled earth to go further. Both the hoe and the tilled earth spots are hitboxes.


Up Smash: The Farmer swings his pitchfork from his front side, overhead and ending pointing behind him. The knockback throws opponents at an awkward angle diagonally behind the Farmer.


Down Smash: The Farmer waters the earth from in front to behind, growing crops from front to back. The longer the charge, the taller/more knockback the crops grow. The crops also leave behind a projectile food item, its strength changing depending on the charge, for example no charge leaves behind a small potato, but a long charge leaves behind a watermelon. Only 1 produce can be in play at a time per Farmer, similar to Diddy’s banana in Smash 4.


Neutral Air: The Farmer tosses seeds around him hitting opponents on all sides.


Forward Air: The Farmer swings his axe forward in a quick, short ranged arc.


Back Air: The Farmer swings a sickle behind him.


Up Air: The Farmer swings his rucksack above his head in an arc.


Down Air: The Farmer swings his hammer below. The move has a spike.


Neutral Special: Animal Charge: Chargeable. The Farmer rings his bell calling forth various Farm animals. The longer it is charged, the more animals come charging through.


Side Special: Giddy Up: The Farmer rides his horse. You can mash B to make the horse go faster and ride longer, similar to how Horse Racing works in certain Harvest Moon titles. The horse can be dismounted early by pressing a jump button.


Up Special: Chicken Glide: The Farmer gets a short, immediate vertical leap, followed by a glide on the chicken, similar to Link gliding with a cucco in Legend of Zelda. The Farmer can drop off early and perform an aerial attack.


Down Special: Sow: The Farmer plants a seed at his feet that grows over time. An enemy making contact with the plant will cause damage and knockback. The more mature the plant, the more knockback. Is useful for throw combos, for example throwing someone into the plant can lead into a follow up as they are in hitstun from the plant. The plant wilts and dies after a few seconds. Only one plant can be active at a time.


Grab: Tether grab. The Farmer swings out his fishing pole to snag opponents. Can also tether edges for recovery.


Pummel: The Farmer attempts to pull the opponent off the hook by pushing with his foot and yanking on the rod. Each push causes damage.


Forward Throw: The Farmer re-casts his line, throwing the opponent along with it.


Back Throw: The Farmer tosses his foe backwards.


Up Throw: The Farmer performs an up-rooting motion, tossing the opponent upward


Down Throw: The Farmer plants the foe in the ground.


Final Smash: Animal Parade: The Farmer begins to ring his bell, and the stage is flooded with farm animals. Cows, Sheep, and Horses charge around on the stage, and Ducks and Chickens haphazardly jump around. Sort of an improvement of Dedede’s Brawl final smash.

 

[Danpal65]

The nutshell version is that Waddle Dees are marketable in the same way Kirby himself is, being simplistic, round, and cute. So naturally trying to make one of the Waddle Dees a recurring character is basically taking advantage of that.

In fact Waddle Dees in general have been heavily promoted in recent years with the different Kirby collaborations, like with the Kirby Cafe and Kirby Pupupu Train ones.

Looking at these Waddle Dee deserves to get in on cuteness alone. So cute!

 

[Starcutter]

I decided to take the Robobot model of Dark Matter and try to render it. If I get a good one and finish color alts I'll post it here, otherwise I just won't lol

I just finished the render. You guys want to see it? (This is 4 hours later lol)

 

[Mega Bidoof]

In my headcanon, the Waddle Dee in Crystal Shards is the Bandana Dee of today.

He grew up so fast!

I used to think that, then I realized that Bandana Dee fought against Kirby in Revenge of the King.

That would mean he went from being best boys with Kirb in 64 to being an enemy in Revenge of the King, which just doesn’t really make any sense.

Maybe they can add Bandana Waddle Dee to Smash, and then also add the Kirby 64 Waddle Dee and have him transform into Crash Bandicoot for his final Smash since their color palettes are relatively the same.

 

[Deleted member]

The nutshell version is that Waddle Dees are marketable in the same way Kirby himself is, being simplistic, round, and cute. So naturally trying to make one of the Waddle Dees a recurring character is basically taking advantage of that. In fact Waddle Dees in general have been heavily promoted in recent years with the different Kirby collaborations, like with the Kirby Cafe and Kirby Pupupu Train ones.

"In recent years" are the key words here.

That's what I'm trying to get across.

Bandana Waddle Dee, or even his status as a Waddle Dee in general was never a big deal until after Returns. Waddle Dees themselves were always just "there" until, as you said, in recent years.

He was truly a nobody within the Kirby franchise.
Then he became not just a somebody, but a major somebody within the franchise with no warning literally just because he was randomly picked to fill out the final character slot in a four-player adventure.
Over a decade after he came into existence.

It's completely surreal.


Again, I am not against him whatsoever. I'm just pointing out how random this whole thing is when it's put into perspective.

 

[Danpal65]

I just finished the render. You guys want to see it? (This is 4 hours later lol)

We want renders! We want renders!

 

[Polan]

That's a non-answer. Characters don't suddenly get upgraded just like that. How did he get that particular weapon, for instance. Waddle Dee being popular is only one factor. There's more to it than that.

I assume he got the spear to go with Meta Knight's sword and Dedede's hammer. It's not like the spear is the only weapon he uses anyway.

You answered a rhetorical question while insinuating that I'm incapable of even comprehending such a simple answer.

With said answer not even actually answering the question.

Sometimes the simple answer is the most likely answer. Bandanna Waddle Dee went from a small-time character to one of the Big Four in the Kirby series because the fans liked him and responded positively to his appearance in RtD. HAL saw that and took note of it and now he's everywhere.

 

[Starcutter]

We want renders! We want renders!

You asked for it!

Edit: I fixed an issue that was bothering me. I think this is the final version

 

[Mega Bidoof]

Waddle Dees have been known for spears ever since Right Back at Ya! . So the Waddle Dee representative can justify having a spear. Why that over Parasol... Spear was new at the time of Return. (Also they later gave Bandana Dee a parasol in Robobot and Battle Royale.)

Oh yeah, the Kirby games did take a lot of influence from what the anime did.

Meta Knight’s sword being called Galaxia came from the anime.

Nightmare’s appearance was updated in Nightmare in Dreamland to match the anime, and his appearance in Smash 4 kept the anime look.

Hell, before the anime, Dedede didn’t have an army of Waddle Dees, and wasn’t even really associated with them specifically. I mean he and the Waddle Dee in Kirby 64 interacted a bit, but that was it.

Now if only they kept that Texan accent from the anime...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

You can split the costumes and keep fox. Works great. In order for him to have his own spot on screen you'd need to replace him, although it is possible to replace Giga Bowser and Warioman and give him his own spot but more testing is still being done.

Unfortunately, it's not possible to remove the knockback immunity from Giga Bowser. Someone tried to do that, but had no choice but to make flinching Giga Bowser replace Bowser, and even then, there were notable issues with it.

 

[Danpal65]

You asked for it!

That looks real nice!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The nutshell version is that Waddle Dees are marketable in the same way Kirby himself is, being simplistic, round, and cute. So naturally trying to make one of the Waddle Dees a recurring character is basically taking advantage of that.

In fact Waddle Dees in general have been heavily promoted in recent years with the different Kirby collaborations, like with the Kirby Cafe and Kirby Pupupu Train ones.

Well it’s is hard to say no to this.

 

[Deleted member]

Eh. Lore is added after the fact all the time.

I mean Meta Knight wasn't really special in Kirby's Adventure. Then Super Star came around and suddenly he's got a brand new characterization and motivation along with new abilities.

Kirby has a history of just taking a popular character and expanding on them later. I personally think searching for why he became a big deal is a bit meaningless at this point. He just, is one now.

There was still something there for Meta Knight in Adventure that made him more than what he appeared.

He would be constantly setting Kirby up against his forces throughout the game and dropping Invincibility Candy for Kirby in some levels (which was omitted in the GBA remake; they just appeared).

Add that to the fact he forced Kirby to use a sword against him and was shown to be of the same race upon defeat, and he was always meant to be a big deal. If for nothing else but the whole mystery behind him.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

The nutshell version is that Waddle Dees are marketable in the same way Kirby himself is, being simplistic, round, and cute. So naturally trying to make one of the Waddle Dees a recurring character is basically taking advantage of that.

In fact Waddle Dees in general have been heavily promoted in recent years with the different Kirby collaborations, like with the Kirby Cafe and Kirby Pupupu Train ones.

Welp, now I am in the mood for some eggs

 

[Chandeelure]

In my opinion, BD was chosen as the fourth character because Waddle Dees are incredibly important to the Kirby series and he and Sailor Dee were the only Waddle Dees that had something different at the time... I think.

Who knows, maybe in another dimension Sailor Dee was chosen as the fourth main character.

If you are referring as to why he was chosen to be King Dedede's companion in Revenge of the King, well, same reason, he is a Waddle Dee that just looked different and Waddle Dees are Dedede's thing so yeah.

 

[Superyoshiom]

There's a lot of talk about Dark Matter as a potential Kirby rep. I think since Gooey has been a heavily requested character in the past, and he is a member of the species, he could represent a lot of a potential Dark Matter moveset. Personally I'd prefer to have the swordsman from Dream Land 2 which, iirc, is a Sakurai-developed Kirby game.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

BD was chosen because of his expanded role in KSSU.

Now, why he was given that role in KSSU? I dunno.

 

[Deleted member]

Dream Land 2 which, iirc, is a Sakurai-developed Kirby game.

Dream Land 2 wasn't Sakurai's work.

 

[Deleted member]

BD was chosen because of his expanded role in KSSU.

And you know this for fact?
They specifically looked at his expanded NPC role in Ultra and said "That's it; that's the one we want as Player 4, no doubt about it!"?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

And you know this for fact?
They specifically looked at his expanded NPC role in Ultra and said "That's it; that's the one we want as Player 4, no doubt about it!"?

Well I don't know for certain but I think its a safe assumption.

He was the only character barring Dedede and Meta Knight to get expansive characterization in the remake that wasn't there in the original.

 

[N3ON]

I feel like giving Bandana Dee his own name would at least make him feel more special. Now it's like, "who do you want in Smash?" "Oh, I want Hat-Wearing Goomba".

At least call him like Jeff or something.

BD was chosen because of his expanded role in KSSU.

Now, why he was given that role in KSSU? I dunno.

Seems likelier that there was coincidentally a character they could simply reuse Waddle Dee and spear assets for to include as a necessary 4p.

 

[Salcan]

And you know this for fact?
They specifically looked at his expanded NPC role in Ultra and said "That's it; that's the one we want as Player 4, no doubt about it!"?

Kirby does love it's nostalgia. Would be an obvious reason to use a preexisting character.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Bandana Waddle Dee will always be that random nobody that just as randomly became a somebody for no true reason to me.

I don't have any real issue with him, but he's just....why is he even a big deal now to begin with.....?

The one thing think you need to understand first is that Kirby fandom. To demonstrate a point. Let's talk about this guy:

His name is plugg. That really isn't something me or any of the kirby fans should really know. After all he is just a random enemy and not even really an important one like Goombas or Waddle Dees. But people certainly learned of him quickly when it was revealed he would be in Star Allies. All that is really special about him is that he was an enemy from Kirby 64 and he is cute. But he quickly grew in popularity. People got attached to the little guy.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that people get really attached to the characters of the kirby series. Even if they had a minor role or something like that. And that's important to understand why Bandana Waddle Dee was popular.

Now one thing I can say for certain is that Bandana Dee started becoming popular before smash 4 was announced. So it wasn't the idea of getting a kirby character into smash. I should know because I started liking him sometime before smash 4 was announced as well.

I feel like it was a mix of three things.

1. He became a playable character.
2. Him being a Waddle Dee
3. His role in Super Star Ultra.

The first may not seem like much based on what you are saying. You are right, he was a random pick for the 4th player spot...but it was still the 4th player spot along with Kirby, Meta Knight, and King dedede. It doesn't matter if he deserved it or not, just by the sake of him being there meant he did. Because kirby fans get really attached to the characters. And people started obsession over it.

The second thing was of course that he was a Waddle dee. The kirby fandom is obsess with the idea of cute things. After all that is a major thing that sets it a part from other franchises. It's consistant cuteness. Which of course makes the nightmareish abomination at the end of kirby games more special. And Waddle Dees are cute. They consistantly get involed in cute things. Wheather it is them driving cars or being lumberjacks. And also Epic Yarn.

The third was probably the actual spark though. When he was confirmed playable, naturally everyone wants to know all they can about him then. And what do you remember/learn with that? That he had a role in Super Star Ultra. Suddenly Super Star Ultra became more special of a remake. I mean wow they are actually referencing the remake. And a reference to one of the best parts of it being where masked dedede got his origins.

And continuing to look at it, you see they actually gave him a character. He's weak, but he wants to help out the king. And speaking of, would you look at that he was playable along side the king. A connection was there. And with all that people ran with it. Bandana Dee became a very special character to the kirby fandom.

I feel like a lot of it actually has to do with how Kirby super star ultra kept getting reference. Bandana Dee, Galacta Knight, Heavy lobster's music, and another Soul appeared in that game. Continuity like that felt very special.

 

[PLATINUM7]

I feel like giving Bandana Dee his own name would at least make him feel more special. Now it's like, "who do you want in Smash?" "Oh, I want Hat-Wearing Goomba".

So Goombario?