Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[WeirdChillFever]

Odyssey is the main game Pauline's in but Mario VS DK's Mini Mario toys are so much more interesting imo.
Then Odyssey can bring elements to enhance that core gameplay, like stopping and redirecting them with Cap Spins.

 

[Starcutter]

Brb adding fuel to the fire.

Oh god, What have I done?

 

[Luminario]

Has Pauline ever really... done anything? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain that in every game she appears in, she's just an NPC who kinda stands there.

She orchestrated her own kidnapping by DK in one of the Mario VS DK games to test the abilities of the minis, so it'll be pretty fitting for her to fight with the minis.

Not sure since I didn't play them, but a friend of mine played both Galaxies, and according to him Rosalina was a very important character to the game, which I doubt she achieved by just "standing there".

Nothing she does in Galaxy is really shown in Smash. I mean she pilots the observatory to the centre of the universe in a pretty badass way and creates a bridge out of magic, but the only thing Smash Rosi and Galaxy Rosi do similarly is work with a lotta sparkles.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I think we'll get a Mario newcomer yet again, but Pauline just seems like she's a bit down the pecking order, (Captain) Toad and Waluigi are both more prominent characters who have had much more support throughout the years, plus their movesets are a bit more obvious. Of course Sakurai just does what he wants, and if he sees something special in Pauline he'll go for it, but that's a hard argument to fall back on.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I'm surprised so many people think we'll see an 8th gen Pokémon and someone from the Switch Fire Emblem in this Smash.

The roster was probably decided before Sakurai could get substantial information on those games. And those games most likely won't come out until after this Smash Bros does.

For reference games like 3D World, Triple Deluxe and Tropical Freeze were too late in development for Sakurai to consider adding major content from those games, and they came out well before Smash Bros did.

The only instance of a character getting in Smash before their own game came out was Roy, and that only happened because he was a last minute clone.

If you want to say we'll get characters from these games as last minute clones then that would make a bit more sense, but I still doubt that would happen.

 

[Hinata]

Rosalina intensifies.

...You know what, you got me there.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

?????????????????????

Not barely as omnipresent as "space" was in Mario Galaxy

Edit: Probably doesn't matter as much though, since Rosalina & Luma is puppeteer first, galaxies second.
But I've yet have to come across an Odyssey related schtick that isn't "well what if her hat is a projectile"

 

[Starcutter]

I'm surprised so many people think we'll see an 8th gen Pokémon and someone from the Switch Fire Emblem in this Smash.

The roster was probably decided before Sakurai could get substantial information on those games. And those games most likely won't come out until after this Smash Bros does.

For reference games like 3D World, Triple Deluxe and Tropical Freeze were too late in development for Sakurai to consider adding major content from those games, and they came out well before Smash Bros did.

The only instance of a character getting in Smash before their own game came out was Roy, and that only happened because he was a last minute clone.

If you want to say we'll get characters from these games as last minute clones then that would make a bit more sense, but I still doubt that would happen.

I think people still assume those games (Pokemon and FE) will be out BEFORE Smash Switch.

 

[ColietheGoalie]

That sounds really familiar....





Oh, yeah. Rosalina.

A) She was a main character in the two games she was in. Like, actually a substantial part of the plot
B) She's been playable in other games, from SMB to the sports/racing spinoffs

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Maxwell from Scribblenauts is my third-party choice. He'd have the weirdest, randomest moveset by far...and it would be great. He could also be the first summoning-based character, which would make him even cooler.

Sadly, I don't think Scribblenauts Showdown increases his chance.

 

[Deleted member]

The Inkling's trailer is not technically like the others because... Well, no game-play. So there are already differences.

I think the Inkling's trailer worked in reverse to how they handled Smash 4 ones, instead of us knowing it was Smash from the beginning, we instead know what character it's focusing on first.
If Corrin's trailer was in a Direct other than a Smash one, I can bet it would have caught a lot of people by surprise.

The problem is that now we already expect Smash so that model wouldn't really work, as fun as it is, especially if they do it after dumping every possible info of the game the character comes from immediatelly before the trailer.

 

[Deleted member]

Whenever I see someone calling Bandana Dee a "generic enemy" I just want to die.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Actually, I wonder, how will they handle reveals from now on? I'm sort of hoping for a big *** trailer at E3 like Brawl's that reveals at least 5 newcomers.
Not that I wouldn't mind Smash 4-styled trailers, but we do only have 9 months at most until the game releases so it'd be hard to space out individual reveals this time.

I think they’ll still go the Smash Wii U route but they’ll be released MUCH more frequently considering the relatively small gap till release. At least once a month, especially after E3. Also nulls the need for a Dojo or Pic of the Day system too, so there’s that...

 

[T-Hell]

Actually, I wonder, how will they handle reveals from now on? I'm sort of hoping for a big *** trailer at E3 like Brawl's that reveals at least 5 newcomers.
Not that I wouldn't mind Smash 4-styled trailers, but we do only have 9 months at most until the game releases so it'd be hard to space out individual reveals this time.

Assuming the game launches on Autumn minimum, they can perfectly start doing the daily dojo thing after E3 and still have a bunch of months worth of information and hype and at the same time having half the game unspoiled. Newcomers reveals could happen every 2 weeks or so, once a month if the game launches on Nov-Dec.

 

[So_many_mails]

Actually, I wonder, how will they handle reveals from now on? I'm sort of hoping for a big *** trailer at E3 like Brawl's that reveals at least 5 newcomers.
Not that I wouldn't mind Smash 4-styled trailers, but we do only have 9 months at most until the game releases so it'd be hard to space out individual reveals this time.

Imagine the shock to reveals like Metroid Prime 4 and Smash Switch but multiple times in one trailer. Hype levels would be astronomical. I think they might have multiple trailers throughout the E3 direct though, or a separate direct just for Smash.

Also I think it'll be 8 months at most, I can't see a December release happening.

When does everyone else think we'll get more info?

 

[Hinata]

I think they’ll still go the Smash Wii U route but they’ll be released MUCH more frequently considering the relatively small gap till release. At least once a month, especially after E3. Also nulls the need for a Dojo or Pic of the Day system too, so there’s that...

I wouldn't say that. Releasing a trailer once per month for a newcomer would be pretty realistic considering how soon the game releases, but I think they'd still want a more lowkey way to reveal veterans. Unless they pull what they did with Robin/Lucina's trailer and just have the veterans be a part of the newcomer reveal.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Maybe we might get Nintendo Directs more often?

 

[N3ON]

Not barely as omnipresent as "space" was in Mario Galaxy

Bowser Jr in the clown car was not nearly as omnipresent as Bowser Jr out of the clown car, but sometimes they go with what makes for the more distinct moveset.

 

[Morbi]

I'm surprised so many people think we'll see an 8th gen Pokémon and someone from the Switch Fire Emblem in this Smash.

The roster was probably decided before Sakurai could get substantial information on those games. And those games most likely won't come out until after this Smash Bros does.

For reference games like 3D World, Triple Deluxe and Tropical Freeze were too late in development for Sakurai to consider adding major content from those games, and they came out well before Smash Bros did.

The only instance of a character getting in Smash before their own game came out was Roy, and that only happened because he was a last minute clone.

If you want to say we'll get characters from these games as last minute clones then that would make a bit more sense, but I still doubt that would happen.

Both literally have precedent. That being said, I imagine Pokemon might be an existing one. They revealed some electrical cat or something, maybe that. But Fire Emblem, like, he probably already thought about another generic sword play-style after Corrin anyways. Not that much of a stretch.

Regardless, even if they are not on the base roster... DLC is still a thing. It is inevitable.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Anyways, anyone else think that it's kinda funny that in the Rate your Chances thread for Bandana Waddle Dee almost all of the votes are either one of the two extremes? Like, 45% of the people are voting around 15% and 45% of the people are voting around 85%. I'm surprised it's that split.

I think the people who voted low haven't really looked into it that much, barring a few notable exceptions. Maybe I'm just biased, since I voted 90%

I think a lot of it probably comes from people not really having assessed the available options for newcomers, some of them have probably just taken their Smash 4 hats on from back when Bandana Dee was rather unlikely. I initially approached it with that mindset aswell, but then I tried to sit down and put a roster together, and wow, we really don't have many big Nintendo characters to choose from anymore. Of course Bandana Dee's popularity has increased since Smash 4 speculation, but the lack of competition also means that he's climbed way up the ladder since last time, once we're past the obvious additions he's one of the biggest Nintendo characters that could still be added.

 

[Bowserlick]

Pauline can turn her hat upside down and dump out rolling projectiles such as barrels and fireballs to reference DK Arcade.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Bowser Jr in the clown car was not nearly as omnipresent as Bowser Jr out of the clown car, but sometimes they go with what makes for the more distinct moveset.

Yeah but the argument was more about "Pauline is Odyssey's Rosalina" than "Pauline can't have a unique moveset" because the latter is just plain stupid

 

[JamesDNaux]

Yeah but the argument was more about "Pauline is Odyssey's Rosalina" than "Pauline can't have a unique moveset" because the latter is just plain stupid

She is Odyssey's Rosalina. The only difference is that Rosalina was made up and practically snuck into Galaxy while Pauline has existed for as long as Mario. You can't just look at Rosalina in Smash and use hindsight bias to say how obvious it was.

Most of Rosalina's moveset is completely made up, she never threw Lumas around, she never actually created galaxies out of her dress. The only moves that actually come from Galaxy are based on things Mario did.

In the same vain, Pauline could have a completely made up music themed moveset with elements of Mario's Odyssey moveset ala the hat throw. Both of them were just NPCs who got a boom in popularity thanks to the game they appeared in.

 

[T-Hell]

I know this has already been talked about but, how relevant do you think the Ballot will be in this new Smash? Do you think Sakurai did really have into consideration at least the ones in the top 10 most voted? That'd be amazing because I remember the likes of Ridley, K.Rool and Isaac being among them.

 

[So_many_mails]

What are people's thoughts on Krystal? Personally I don't think she'll be included after being absent from Zero, but I suppose it could still happen. I don't really want her either, but I see that a lot of people do.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I don’t find Pauline as particularly likely considering her popularity is subject to Odyssey and considering Odyssey’s recency I think she missed the roster deciding party.

 

[Reality_Ciak]

I still like the idea of Cappy becoming Mario's grab;

In air, it's like a tether but instead of grabbing the ledge he can bounce on him, it would hit opponents like other zairs.

On the ground it would grab and pull in, keep all throws the same, except down throw could become like DK's cargo throws, except you control them for a moment or for one non special attack, that way you can't just up B off the ledge.

That way Mario doesn't lose anything.
Except for a combo starter throw...

 

[Starcutter]

I think a lot of it probably comes from people not really having assessed the available options for newcomers, some of them have probably just taken their Smash 4 hats on from back when Bandana Dee was rather unlikely. I initially approached it with that mindset aswell, but then I tried to sit down and put a roster together, and wow, we really don't have many big Nintendo characters to choose from anymore. Of course Bandana Dee's popularity has increased since Smash 4 speculation, but the lack of competition also means that he's climbed way up the ladder since last time, once we're past the obvious additions he's one of the biggest Nintendo characters that could still be added.

He's had TWO playable roles since Smash 4, where there was only one before that. It makes sense he wasn't in Smash 4, there was literally no way to know if he would become the series staple he is now. (also like 5 games where he was an NPC)

Now that the ship has sailed and Bandana Waddle Dee is pretty much always going to be the "Player 4" for Kirby console games, (or 2, 3 and 4 in Rainbow curse lol) I think it would make sense if they want to add a character from Kirby.

Also, isn't the Kirby franchise as a whole growing more to the point it's beaten out a bunch of other Nintendo series in Total sales since Smash 4? I remember hearing that a year ago but I'm too busy to check (probably shouldn't even be on smashboards rn)

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

To be entirely honest I don't know why fans (or Nintendo for that matter) are promoting Pauline so much considering she does just as little as any other NPC in Super Mario Odyssey.

 

[So_many_mails]

I know this has already been talked about but, how relevant do you think the Ballot will be in this new Smash? Do you think Sakurai did really have into consideration at least the ones in the top 10 most voted? That'd be amazing because I remember the likes of Ridley, K.Rool and Isaac being among them.

I think Sakurai will take into account the ballot, especially since, as has been said before, there aren't a whole lot of big Nintendo characters left. I don't think it will be enough to completely change his mind on characters such as Ridley, as Sakurai knew a lot of people wanted him anyway, but it will help introduce new ideas.

I also don't think we can really guess who won, or who got a lot of votes, as any poll we try to do will be skewed to 'hardcore fans' while anyone could vote in the ballot.

 

[JamesDNaux]

To be entirely honest I don't know why fans (or Nintendo for that matter) are promoting Pauline so much considering she does just as little as any other NPC in Super Mario Odyssey.

I didn't know why Nintendo were promoting Rosalina so much considering she did just as little as any other NPC in Galaxy either.

 

[Morbi]

To be entirely honest I don't know why fans (or Nintendo for that matter) are promoting Pauline so much considering she does just as little as any other NPC in Super Mario Odyssey.

There is definitely a reason. If you can get a character into Smash, that comes with fan-art, and fan-art comes with, yeah. In that regard, even I support Pauline.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I didn't know why Nintendo were promoting Rosalina so much considering she did just as little as any other NPC in Galaxy either.

Yeah I love Metro Kingdom it's my favorite HUB in any 3D Mario

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

Rosalina played a pretty important role in Galaxy as a whole. Pauline was just kind of important in one level.

Sakurai mainly wanted Rosalina in Smash, because he liked the idea of her being a puppet character. You could make a moveset for Pauline, but I don't think the ideas Sakurai would come up with for her would stick out the same way the idea of Rosalina as a puppet character did.

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

I didn't know why Nintendo were promoting Rosalina so much considering she did just as little as any other NPC in Galaxy either.

To be absolutely fair Rosalina at least had that backstory in Super Mario Galaxy. It was optional, but it made her character pretty strong.

But considering Baby Rosalina is now a thing it's safe to assume that Nintendo has forgotten about that.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I know this has already been talked about but, how relevant do you think the Ballot will be in this new Smash? Do you think Sakurai did really have into consideration at least the ones in the top 10 most voted? That'd be amazing because I remember the likes of Ridley, K.Rool and Isaac being among them.

I think the ballot will help characters who Sakurai maybe didn't think were very popular outside of the core Nintendo fanbase, so someone like K. Rool probably got a big boost from it judging by the hat. The ballot was also very popular with fans who don't partake in speculation though, so we might see a few oddball inclusions akin to Cloud and Bayonetta.

I think it probably hurts characters who are only popular amongst the Nintendo faithfuls though, like Isaac who I imagine was outdone by many more relevant characters as he's seen as somewhat obscure amongst the masses. For the record I also think Ridley probably did poorly in it as he was already deconfirmed at the time, but whatever his results where they're kind of irrelevant as Sakurai has known about his popularity for many many years.

 

[Freduardo]

Honestly I see Daisy and Toad as clones. But closer to Luigi’s than Dark pits.

Toad would get more running speed, but a crippled jump (significantly so if he’s captain toad) but it still makes sense for him to have Peach’s turnips and spore)

And Daisy could be a very Luigified twist on Peach, with an extra jump instead of a float, with a kart glider instead of a parasol, tatanga instead of toad, and kart parts instead of turnips.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Tomboy
"A tomboy is a girl who has tastes and behaviors usually associated with boys. Because these associations are culture-dependent and tend to change, what exactly constitutes a "Tomboy" is subjective. Especially historically, any girl interested in science, mechanics, sport, or combat has been called tomboyish."
Basically, it's vague, as exemplified by the numerous sub-tropes. But if we take the "girl who acts in a way or likes things traditionally associated with boys", then Daisy doesn't even come close.
And if someone wants to argue about how she "plays sports" then every female Mario character is a tomboy.

Those are integral parts of their gameplay too though, the game wouldn't work if they could jump at the player's will.

Still, the "X thing is integral to character but they can't work as a fighter because of it" argument is stupid. Smash characters aren't 1:1 of their original counterparts, they are adaptations so they can fit in a fighting game, something I believe Sakurai realised when he went back on his word about Villager.
"Should this character who, by all merits, should be in the game, be excluded simply because it wouldn't make sense within canon?"
Sonic can't swim in his games and that's a vital part of gameplay, yet he can swim in Smash; Bayonetta becomes nude when using some of her attacks in her games but she was changed to fit her into Smash; Kirby can infinitely jump in his games but he was given a limit to make him a balanced fighter; Pokemon can only have 4 moves at a time yet Pikachu has 5, Charizard has 6 and Greinja has 5/6.
I could go on and on but I think you get my point.

Tl;dr a character's limitations in-canon has never stopped anyone from being made into a playable fighter

Energetic isn't a tomboyish trope, Genki Girl is a thing. Also, tomboyish=/=competitive

Guess Sumia is a tomboy then, look at that punch she gave Chrom!

If you're gonna use the "Japanese culture" argument, then you should know tomboys are very explicit in Japanese media, like, they'll have short hair, use clothing associated with men and so forth.
Next you're gonna tell me Samus is a tomboy.

Also, by your argument, at least 90% of Nintendo's female characters are tomboys so then Daisy has nothing special for herself ¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯

Samus isn’t a tomboy.

She’s a drag king. Which also seems to fit your view of what a tomboy is.

And I did note how that applied to just about everyone but Peach.

I stated what she does that gave her that title instead of her just being viewed as a ‘Delicate flower’.

You note the definition is vague.

But then you add a bunch of specifics.

In a vague sense, Daisy is a Tomboy. She acts more ‘masculine’ in behavior than Peach or Rosalina or even Toadette. Frequently. Is she the quintessential tomboy? No, she wears a dress and make up most of the time.

In a vague sense, Luigi is a coward. He shakes throughout Luigi’s mansion and gets really scared during Mario and Luigi games. Frequently. Is he the quintessential coward? No, he still went into the mansion and heroes up constantly. Would you still read a trophy description that might call him “cowardly brother” as a poor translation for “scaredy cat brother”? Yeah probably. Is that description wrong?

 

[JamesDNaux]

Yeah I love Metro Kingdom it's my favorite HUB in any 3D Mario

Are you implying a HUB is better than an entire level?

Wow man, and I thought I missed HUBs,

To be absolutely fair Rosalina at least had that backstory in Super Mario Galaxy. It was optional, but it made her character pretty strong.

But considering Baby Rosalina is now a thing it's safe to assume that Nintendo has forgotten about that.

Yeah, and Pauline has a backstory dating back all the way to 1981. They even built a city based on it.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

People saying they got various characters they most have wanted and already satisfied...

Maan, I'd kill for that kind of feeling, but I feel like that'll never come.

Hadn't yet got to talk about the chars I deep down really want to see, but regarding them, I've come to accept them more or less as what Sakurai wouldn't favor at all based on last games.

For characters I'm referring to, I'll just show the via the stamps I made long, long time ago - from most likeliest to least:

(Got shafted already in Smash 4 despite being possibly part of forbidden 7, and IDK if Sakurai's into creating new semiclones anymore. Basically I'm prepared for what happened in Smash 4 since I thought she'd be likely in that game due her recency in Tropical Freeze)

(I believe Captain Toad will be an Assist Trophy due how him not being able to jump is super-integral to him and Sakurai, being so averse to Toad before, will use that as a good reason to put him on that spot instead of believing he has potential)

'

(Unpopularity locks him to Assist Trophy-role, as much as I'd absolutely love him to be there, based on his quirky and infamous DS-outings.)

(As much as New Leaf has possibly given some new handwave to her via AC Puzzle League, she's honestly just too obscure. Might just be most happy seeing her on Captain Rainbow anyway, now that game has gotten an english fan translation patch.

(Dead franchises. Starfy was also Chrom 1.0 back in Brawl and even worse in Smash 4.)


Mostly this is due how drastically views in character inclusion and other aspects have changed since Smash Bros 4, during pre-and post-speculation. Coupled with how much I've seen from this series to this point,I DK what's gonna wow me anymore.

Hence why I'm not exactly looking forward to this one with as much enthutiasm as others were
(Yes, I wasn't going crazy or screaming when Inklings saw the flaming Smash-logo. I recognized the exact re-enacting of the first Splatoon-trailer, and was practically seeing a 90% chance for the announcement to be a Smash-one. At the end, I kind of laughed bitterly because "here we go again".)

Already I have also been into many new things since, so I feel like this is definitely the final Smash-game I might partake spculation on - and even then I'm actually feeling not too excited to buy the game long after it's launch.

Just don't have much to draw me or be excited about anymore, in as I've gotten bit tired watching everyone enjoying what they got while I'm bit eating desserts - and sometimes have to deal with overly repetitive and annoying ragging on characters I really like (Chrom before I dropped him for good and when he was revealed within Western fanbases).

Sorry for the venting, but I think I just wanted to let out my true feelings on this game's announcement. It's been pretty disorienting when everyone's so excited and here I am just waiting the game to just come out so I can move already on with seeing it everywhere while I'm not excited about it personally (including incoming memes and other predictable things related to the series).

 

[Starcutter]

I didn't know why Nintendo were promoting Rosalina so much considering she did just as little as any other NPC in Galaxy either.

I think comparing Rosalina in Galaxy to Pauline in Odyssey makes sense, but is a stretch.

Rosalina was a character they introduced early in the game and she stuck around for the entire thing, up until the ending. They also introduced her "backstory" through the Library.

Pauline is in ONE kingdom up until her appearances in the endgame. And even in the endgame, she literally just says one or two lines and that's it. She has that Quiz thing in the postgame, but I wouldn't say that's all that substantial.

Introduce her in Mario Tennis or Mario Kart, like Rosalina, then we can talk about this. For now, she's made a medium-sized cameo in Odyssey but not much else. I don't doubt she'll be added to Mario Tennis Aces since apparently, you can unlock characters, but that still hasn't happened yet.